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How did Darth Krayt become weaker during Legacy era?
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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi
- Thread starter Shadowbokunohero
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Epyriel
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His Vong implants are stated to have gradually made him weaker and weaker over time. It is not until he gets reborn free from them that he achieves the pinnacle of his power (also ignore the current bad profile for him on-site that has him relative to Luke during FOTJ, that is bogus).
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How well did the Vader vs Obito Death Battle age research wise?
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Dunno, Vader doesn't have a Legends file.
Epyriel
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Not great. They constantly mixed Legends and Canon stuff, and the AP values given for Vader were massively inflated.
They had him at Large Planet level off of the Sunstar’s portal ritual which involved moving moons (using the fact that Charal overpowered Logray with the Sunstar to deduce that Vader scales over it), despite the fact that Charal revered the Sunstar’s power and desperately sought to obtain it (indicating she is weaker that it) and chided Logray’s use of it as “pathetic” (indicating he is not using its full power, which matches the fact that its uses vary wildly in yield depending on both user and uses), and the fact that Charal believed she could match the entire Empire’s contingent at Endor with its power (which considering that includes both ROTJ Sidious and the Death Star, clearly Vader doesn’t scale to it either).
Not to mention the fact that in both Canon and Legends Vader consistently struggles with City level or below yields.
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Hagane had some Legends calcs that put Legends at those Tier 5 to even Tier 4 ranges
But those are mostly Kotor era stuff and I'm not sure how well you can chainscale Vader to those
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You basically can't without some mental gymnastics.
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I heard the main arguments are Palpatine being the strongest Sith ever, but I'm also aware of howw iffy those statements are (I recall the Legends statement mkaing Maul above past Sith, and I don't need to explain how absurd Maul>Revan and Vitate is lol).
How about Yoda scaling to past Jedi?
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That comes from a misguided attempt to scale Vader to Palpatine.
What you're thinking of is the rule of 2, and yeah, that is silly, so the chain starts at Darth Bane, not Tenebrae.
Yoda is called the avatar of the light side, and papa palps the avatar of the dark side. So yeah they scale. Thing is Yoda and Papa Palps vastly outscore Vader.
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Ahhh so Yoda and Palps scale. Gotcha
One of the arguments I've seen used is George stating Vader is only 20% weaker than Palps
I've also seen these thrown around, but I don't have the books, so I can't verify them. I've even seen YouTubers use these statements along with the George statement to justify Vader downscaling to Palps.
Epyriel
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You can get Legends characters there with various amps and rituals, but nothing that you could actually scale Vader to.
Not valid at all lol. Whole point of the Valley is that it was an impossibly powerful reservoir that basically made Jerec a god. I’ve also seen weird attempts at scaling Palpatine to stuff like Wutzek (a Force Demon who can destroy Solar System which he has no business scaling to) or the Corsair causing supernovas (which was a superweapon for a reason, no reason to think Palpatine wouldn’t also need an elaborate setup of Sith Magic Crystals).
That is valid for scaling Yoda to any un-amped stuff from past Jedi (I guess aside from the Outlander since they stop really being just a Jedi by the time they start doing more interesting stuff), although all the really high tier scaling from past Jedi is more from circumstantial amps (like for instance Ood Bnar tapping into the power of Ossus itself to survive a supernova’s blast wave).
Unpublished statements are repeated upheld not to have any canonical value so I wouldn’t bother with that.
Palps was pretty paranoid (he’s got similar statements for Dooku despite being able to choke him out over holocom from across the galaxy and Dooku referring to him as “beyond power”) so I wouldn’t put too much stock into this.
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then where would Legends folks be on Vader's tier scale exactly?
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If i remember correctly, it took the combined might of the spirits of every Jedi who had ever been born over the last 25,000 years to defeat Palpatine which should've include all of the spirit in valley, so he might scale to
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It is also possible to get Vader up to Tier 1 as well
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lets...not go there shall we
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Do you think we'd get something like Star Wars Visionaries from Disney Star Wars?
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boopDoes anyone think we were robbed of Maul doing a General Grievous 5 years before General Grievous appeared on screen? Like if this screenshot from HISHE actually happened but instead Maul smiles exclaiming "WHAT FUN!!" and actually takes all of them on at once? That definitely would leave the impression of Maul being a Jedi smoothie machine to be feared!
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Epyriel
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Around City level.
That was more so to stop him from reviving than to beat him in a straight up fight (and he couldn’t resist them).
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This was Episode 2 Anakin, he's gotten stronger since then, although there are statements that he is as strong as Yoda but just not as skilled
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These are some Tier 1 feats from the Expanded Universe is they mean anything:
"Extra-galactic travel had long been thought impossible due to the intersecting ripples formed in hyperspace by galactic masses. C'baoth believed that the Jedi could use the force to smooth this zone of turbulence. He tested his theory on the briarpatch border of the Unknown Regions, then recommended that he, with seventeen other Jedi Knights and Masters, accompany the Outbound colonists on their journey."
In a cinematic final showdown, players do battle with Lord Tagriss, who uses his newfound powers to bat players around like flies, open force-crushing black holes, and electrify the flooded room.
To defeat Tagriss, players must activate their Seeker Droids to dislodge the force crystals embedded within the room, and use them to attack the Seed of Rage directly. The resulting explosions temporarily break Tagriss' connection to the Seed, making him vulnerable (albeit briefly).
"Extra-galactic travel had long been thought impossible due to the intersecting ripples formed in hyperspace by galactic masses. C'baoth believed that the Jedi could use the force to smooth this zone of turbulence. He tested his theory on the briarpatch border of the Unknown Regions, then recommended that he, with seventeen other Jedi Knights and Masters, accompany the Outbound colonists on their journey."
- Source: The New Essential Chronology
In a cinematic final showdown, players do battle with Lord Tagriss, who uses his newfound powers to bat players around like flies, open force-crushing black holes, and electrify the flooded room.
To defeat Tagriss, players must activate their Seeker Droids to dislodge the force crystals embedded within the room, and use them to attack the Seed of Rage directly. The resulting explosions temporarily break Tagriss' connection to the Seed, making him vulnerable (albeit briefly).
- Michael Ammer (level designer for mission involving Lord Tagriss)
- Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
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The C90 Corvette appears in this game if anyone wishes to try ripping the model of it out: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Battlefront
Epyriel
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Sure KFV and the other Prequels top tiers upscales from this, but Suited Vader is weaker than them and should only be comparable. Not to mention the fact it remains the best feat in the Prequels which indicates they likely aren’t getting substantially higher than this.
He is, but neither of those “feats” hold water. Poof defusing a planetary bomb before it can cascade in a chain reaction which would eventually destroy the planet is not indicative of planetary AP. Bane also never moved moons, instead just waiting for their orbit to naturally intersect so he could ride over from one to the other on a flying creature.
As has already been extensively talked about, vaguely interacting with hyperspace doesn’t scale anywhere. Neither does the hyperbole of “nearly limitless power” for the Seeds of Rage (which can canonically be destroyed by tossing them in a star).These are some Tier 1 feats from the Expanded Universe is they mean anything:
"Extra-galactic travel had long been thought impossible due to the intersecting ripples formed in hyperspace by galactic masses. C'baoth believed that the Jedi could use the force to smooth this zone of turbulence. He tested his theory on the briarpatch border of the Unknown Regions, then recommended that he, with seventeen other Jedi Knights and Masters, accompany the Outbound colonists on their journey."
When players finally catch up to Lord Tagriss, they find that he has managed to crack open one of the Seeds of Rage, and is using it to infuse himself with almost limitless power.
- Source: The New Essential Chronology
In a cinematic final showdown, players do battle with Lord Tagriss, who uses his newfound powers to bat players around like flies, open force-crushing black holes, and electrify the flooded room.
To defeat Tagriss, players must activate their Seeker Droids to dislodge the force crystals embedded within the room, and use them to attack the Seed of Rage directly. The resulting explosions temporarily break Tagriss' connection to the Seed, making him vulnerable (albeit briefly).
- Michael Ammer (level designer for mission involving Lord Tagriss)
- Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
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6C vader
Ruby_R_Dracula
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what
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Turbolaser
Ruby_R_Dracula
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ok what does Vader gotta do with a turbo laser
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He uses the Force to protect himself from all the turbolasers of a Star Destroyer.
Ruby_R_Dracula
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neat
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Planet level, arguably higher, since he should scale to the vast majority of the feats on that level sans those enacted by superweapons. Probably also scales to some amped ones by virtue of nexi not being that substantial of an amp most of the time nor being passive amps.
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The first Head to Head book says that Vader would beat Yoda though
OTG0001
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Vaguely interacting with hyperspace DOES scale somewhere, as storms are not only capable of producing timelines but also the fact that tachyons within hyperspace are just stated to produce nigh-infinite energies while constrained by Realspace's lower dimensions, thus it can be inferred that naturally, within hyperspace, these particles would produce what would be equivalent to infinite energy in a 3-dimensional space.
Said storms just also.....cause immense, galactic-scale disturbances in the force.
The chain reaction statement doesn't help your case. Disregarding the amount of statements directly attributing the energies to its destructive potential and appealing to the unreliability of those who narrated it is already suspicious on your behalf. The feat in question is already massively above planetary by sheer virtue of creating an effect similar to a Type 1A supernova. Even if you want to say Jango and Zam's testimony is accurate, you still have to acknowledge that a chain reaction feat producing far greater energy than what would be enough to destroy a planet calls into question how much the statement actually limits the feat's potency, given the excess of energies it produces. In other words, unless there's some arbitrary amount of force energy on the planet which can somehow create the excess energies, then most of the destructive power anyways must have come from the artifact, as you couldn't explain why the energies vastly exceed planetary through other means.
Of course, you can just Occam's Razor this and just have the feat be as described in pretty much every complementary source, that the energies itself are attributed to the planetary destruction, not some elaborate setup of planetary faults or other nonexistent factors (which you cannot prove) that could have aided the artifact in its effect.
Bane moving a moon, if I recall, was stated within his power, whether or not he did it in the Bane trilogy, but id have to see the statement again.
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It comes from Bane of the Sith, which I have here:
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Does this mean I undercalculated the AP value?
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I'd take that with a grain of salt. But it should be within prime suit Vader (so ROTJ) to contend with base Yoda nicely, since a Dark Jedi whose name I forgot did fight Yoda for a day and a half or whatever it was, and said Dark Jedi had the same power level as Vader, per the same source. Would need to find the source.
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You only did a possible lower end, not necessarily a wrong one.
OTG0001
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Potentially. The comic says that the destruction of Coruscant would be visible from the outer rim, and that the energies released by the infant would be like nothing the galaxy had ever seen. Hence the Type 1A supernova comparison.
Although, if you want to appeal to the minority statements of chain reaction, something contradicted by people with more authority on the matter, and even Zam and Jango themselves, then the calc should be fine for poof's ap (because as jango explains, putting it at the center of the world is the chain reaction, thus its reasonable to assume core destruction which then would cause a "chain reaction" that eventually destroys the entire planet)
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Was this between 19 BBY to 4 ABY? Because I'm looking at Wookieepedia and I don't see a mention of Yoda dueling any Dark Jedi in that time
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