Low 1C - 1C Dc Comics Upgrade Attempt For Heralds (Every Universe Destruction Feat Would Be 2A)

[Lloydblitzed]

It is not a misinterpretation. She cannot downscale from MM because she simply does not have feats on that level. Downscaling would imply that she is weaker but somewhat comparable when that is definitely not the case. It is obvious that Raven being at all comparable to MM who has total control of the Red is an outlier. It is certainly not something that can be used for a scaling chain to other Heralds either as such a feat is far far beyond low-1C or whatever it is that people are trying to argue for at the moment. It is not really clear what is trying to be achieved with this thread as it has strayed so far from the original post.

Im pretty sure it would not make sense for MM to have access and draw High 1-A power while existing on a regular 4D/5D space that exist below even the SoG, so she would've draw 5D power at best. I will reply to the Herald stuff later

The Red is one of the Elementary Parliaments, forces of nature convened by the Lords of Order. It is a low-1A structure. Raven does not have any feats on that level or any mechanism that would allow her to be that powerful. Again, scaling Raven to MM is beyond the scope of this thread.

Should've started arguing with this instead of stalling 5 comments

 

[KirbyFan03]

Neither of these are more than 2-A.


This is Low 1-C though. Reading the comic (its the Next miniseries from 2006), it uses string cosmology which indicates quantum wave form collapse. Though this would scale to Bleed Space and no individual universe.

The reason Superman/Next were in that situation was because a Chrono-Monster was collasping space-time in that area. So while this does show that the greater cosmology is string based, I don't think any universe scales by itself.

With space-time in DC being low 1-C can we assume things beyond space-time would scale above or at least to 5D?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

If you had read the comics (Titans Vol3 #31-36) you would know that MM had been amplified by Source Energy which is why she has total control over the Red.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If you had read the comics (Titans Vol3 #31-36) you would know that MM had been amplified by Source Energy which is why she has total control over the Red.

Ik and it doesn't change what I said

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Ik and it doesn't change what I said

What tier are you trying to get for DC heralds?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Returning to the topic of the thread:

Point 2.5 of the OP: The Green Lantern Central Power Battery contains many things including infinite realities generated through willpower. These universes, while their own independent realities, do not have the same mechanics as a true designated universe of the multiverse (for example New Earth/Prime Earth or Earth-2) as such it is not subject to either divergent timeline mechanics on its temporal side or quantum offshoot universe mechanics on its spatial side.

Point 3 of the OP: Destroying a universe does not grant 2A statistics for destroying the Central Power Battery contained inside of it. The Battery does not even have 2A durability. Additionally, the Green Energy of Willpower is not truly inside of so the energy is not actually being affected or destroyed. The Central Power Battery is an extra-dimensional conduit. It is basically a fancy specialized portal for willpower energy.

 

[Bimgus8010]

[

Returning to the topic of the thread:

Point 2.5 of the OP: The Green Lantern Central Power Battery contains many things including infinite realities generated through willpower. These universes, while their own independent realities, do not have the same mechanics as a true designated universe of the multiverse (for example New Earth/Prime Earth or Earth-2) as such it is not subject to either divergent timeline mechanics on its temporal side or quantum offshoot universe mechanics on its spatial side.

Point 3 of the OP: Destroying a universe does not grant 2A statistics for destroying the Central Power Battery contained inside of it. The Battery does not even have 2A durability. Additionally, the Green Energy of Willpower is not truly inside of so the energy is not actually being affected or destroyed. The Central Power Battery is an extra-dimensional conduit. It is basically a fancy specialized portal for willpower energy.

@PromptedElephant641, we discussed this before

When are you gonna give actual sources?

 

[KirbyFan03]

Personally I think it's safe to say, if anyone can agree with me

The Multiverse in DC or Metaverse at least does get Low 1-C/uncountably infinite

However if we don't assign the 5D value to singular universes could we perhaps apply it to the multiverse itself?

I don't see why it would only be The Bleed as the Ultramenstruum contains those infinite universes and thus should be beyond it

Imo we could use it to justify the 11D/higher Infinity stuff for the orrery and then we decide who scales to it in their fullest

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234

So what should we do here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

single willworld is infinite as it's literally called an infinite sea where Hal makes bubbles

That's saying the ocean of willpower within the Green Lantern Power Battery is infinite, not that every realm within it is infinite.

With space-time in DC being low 1-C can we assume things beyond space-time would scale above or at least to 5D?

I did not say that. I said that the comic is using string theory, which is why the Metaverse is using quantum waveform collapse. I'm not sure any universal space-time contains a multitude of universes based on that comic books cosmology.

 

[KirbyFan03]

That's saying the ocean of willpower within the Green Lantern Power Battery is infinite, not that every realm within it is infinite.

I did not say that. I said that the comic is using string theory, which is why the Metaverse is using quantum waveform collapse. I'm not sure any universal space-time contains a multitude of universes based on that comic books cosmology.

MB

But since the material plane follows quantum stuff and the bleed does have higher args I'm curious

Where do you have the quantum waveform collapse cosmologically, and who do you think scales?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Where do you have the quantum waveform collapse cosmologically, and who do you think scales?

DC in the early 2000s used 11-Dimensional String Theory (or 12.3 Dimensional according to the Metal Men). The universe itself is just 3D+1, but there's higher realms within it.

 

[KirbyFan03]

DC in the early 2000s used 11-Dimensional String Theory (or 12.3 Dimensional according to the Metal Men). The universe itself is just 3D+1, but there's higher realms within it.

Iirc this was before Morrison came in with the SoTG

I'd like to think the bleed as being 13D due to containing and being above those dimensions

The speedforce wall transforming all material things to information

And the Sphere of the Gods which exist as pure information and platonic archetypes

But regardless I am interested on who you think scales to the 5D stuff, if any?

 

[Bimgus8010]

That's saying the ocean of willpower within the Green Lantern Power Battery is infinite, not that every realm within it is infinite.

Would the usage of the words "parallel" universes change anything?

As it can mean a multiverse structure exist?

Parallel universes in fiction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would the usage of the words "parallel" universes change anything?

As it can mean a multiverse structure exist?

No, because the bubbles are within the same spatial area and you can fly between them. The Marble Aliens aren't Tier 2 for this reason.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

No, because the bubbles are within the same spatial area and you can fly between them. The Marble Aliens aren't Tier 2 for this reason.

Well what about this? Can't we at least get Low 1-C for the Multiverse itself?

Well combined with the possible future scans from earlier, it would mean that an infinite amount of Earth exists and are continiously generate while generating 2-A structures everytime which should still qualify as uncountable

 

[FroYoSans]

• Post-Crisis high tier heralds like Superman are staying 2A - Superman has the Red King feat and Green Lanterns have the Will World feat.
• Pre-Crisis high tier heralds will be low-1C

This part makes no sense to me. Post Crisis counterparts are most definitely stronger than their Pre Crisis counterparts

 

[Antvasima]

This part makes no sense to me. Post Crisis counterparts are most definitely stronger than their Pre Crisis counterparts

Superman was enormously depowered in the post-Crisis continuity, and although he gradually grew more powerful, he never reached pre-Crisis levels of power until after he was reintroduced in the Rebirth continuity.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Superman was enormously depowered in the post-Crisis continuity, and although he gradually grew more powerful, he never reached pre-Crisis levels of power until after he was reintroduced in the Rebirth continuity.

True. Additionally, while far stronger than his Post-Crisis self likely having exceeded even his Pre-Crisis self, Rebirth Superman still has not demonstrated the pure speed of Pre-Crisis Superman who could effortlessly and precisely travel through time. He does have the time travel feat / statement from Batman/Superman: World’s Finest though even this straight up states that his capability to do so in not accurate.

 

[FroYoSans]

Superman was enormously depowered in the post-Crisis continuity, and although he gradually grew more powerful, he never reached pre-Crisis levels of power until after he was reintroduced in the Rebirth continuity.

Sure for a time he was, that I won't deny the mental blockers and all, but he literally fights Golden Age Superman, which is a pre-crisis Superman. I don't have the receipts (since I'm not a big Post Crisis reader or even Pre Crisis reader), however i have seen a dude give an entire dissertation explaining why Post Crisis>Pre Crisis. I should message him

 

[Antvasima]

Golden Age Superman was depowered for that story. Or either that or it is a massive outlier.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Golden Age Superman was depowered for that story.

Not speaking on consistency, but GA Superman was not depowered his fight with Post Crisis Superman to the best of my memory. The depowering doesn't happen until after they ramed Superboy Prime through Rao.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant depowered for narrative purposes, not within the story itself.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, for most of his career, the Golden Age Superman was much weaker than the Silver Age Superman. It was first when they started interacting with each other that he was powered-up.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Golden Age Superman on his own does not have any impressive feats. As Antvasima said, he only increased in power when during multiversal crossovers he interacted with the Earth-One Superman. Additionally, along with being depowered for narrative reasons in Infinite-Crisis, he had been trapped in the paradise dimension for an unknown amount of time (due to how timeworks there) away from yellow Sunlight.

 

[FroYoSans]

Still don't buy Pre Crisis >Post Crisis, given the cosmos expanded so much and is honestly one of the more ridiculous eras for feats but oh well. Nor here to argue that

 

[Bimgus8010]

@Qawsedf234

Shouldn't this make hypertime low 1C?

The Next #5

Post with 14 views. The Next #5

imgchest.com

 

[KirbyFan03]

I firmly believe the scan talks about the full nature of the multiverse. Hypertime and The Bleed easily outscale it through better arguments

I just feel that The Next 5 scan elaborates on the nature of the multiverse and anyone like say God Brainiac or The Emotional Entities should scale to the uncountably infinite universe stuff

 

[KirbyFan03]

I firmly believe the scan talks about the full nature of the multiverse. Hypertime and The Bleed easily outscale it through better arguments

I just feel that The Next 5 scan elaborates on the nature of the multiverse and anyone like say God Brainiac or The Emotional Entities should scale to the uncountably infinite universe stuff

As even New God Emanation tech was more than enough to deal with The Oblivion Shadow who in The Next was stronger than superman and sion

 

[Antvasima]

When was that comicbook published?

 

[KirbyFan03]

When was that comicbook published?

2006 iirc

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the information. However, it seems inconsistent with the 52 universes of that era.

 

[KirbyFan03]

Thank you for the information. However, it seems inconsistent with the 52 universes of that era.

Iirc the infinite multiverse was still around then the 52 universes were "local" even Dan Didio considered DC universes to be their own macrocosm

 

[Qawsedf234]

Shouldn't this make hypertime low 1C?

That's talking about the Metaverse and deal with the comics 11-D String Cosmology. Hypertime is a different thing, though it acts similar to that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Thank you for the information. However, it seems inconsistent with the 52 universes of that era.

DC had 52 'Stable' universes that didn't change, but still had a branching multiverse, they just don't have scaling since time will eventually remerge with itself as explained by Hyperman.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Thank you for the information. However, it seems inconsistent with the 52 universes of that era.

Not really, they used "Hypertime" a lot to get around the 52 universes, with every universe having alternate timelines and we saw that in both interviews:

BALTIMORE COMIC-CON 07: DC NATION PANEL REPORT - NEWSARAMA

BALTIMORE COMIC-CON 07: DC NATION PANEL REPORT FEATURES

web.archive.org

and in comics where we see characters from JLA: The Nail who aren't part of the 52 worlds in Countdown Arena and the chibi Justice League also appeared and wasn't one of the 52 Earths.

 

[Bimgus8010]

That's talking about the Metaverse and deal with the comics 11-D String Cosmology. Hypertime is a different thing, though it acts similar to that.

I know that hypertime is different but as you said, it is similar to that. Seeing as it is the collection of all infinite realities and seeing as countless new realities spark into existing more. Wouldn't the never ending countless realities being created also be inside of hypertime?

Shouldn't hypertime qualify as low 1C? Or is there a reason on why it can't be low 1C?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Shouldn't hypertime qualify as low 1C?

For this era, no. Hypertime has the timelines constantly overlap and combine again. Which according to our standards means it isn't Low 1-C:

Secondly, there is the case of timelines that are connected at certain points in time. Unlike the scenario in which travel between universes is always possible through three-dimensional movement, connection between these timelines only occurs at specific times. At these moments, the timelines may be considered as the same universe. For instance, if a timeline splits into two, the timelines were once the same universe before the split occurred. Conversely, if two timelines merge into one, they become the same universe only after they have been fused. In such cases, destruction of a timeline is only accounted for if it was not connected to any other timeline for an infinite amount of time. Conversely, if numerous timelines were never separate for an infinite amount of time, they would be considered as one timeline for the purpose of tiering their destruction or creation.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

To dispel some misconceptions that people are bringing up:

Hypertime is not really relevant to this discussion as there is plenty of material that can be used that does not involve it. First of all, the original notion of Hypertime by Mark Waid and Grant Morrison was literally just the multiverse but rebranded with the Hypertime label. Hypertime was largely abandoned by the year 2000 and would not become mainstream again outside of a few name drops here and there until the later 2010s. In one of the few actual descriptions from the period that it originated in, Hypertime is described in the following manner: “A few of Earth's super-heroes learn the secret of HYPERTIME - the sum total of all possible realities, dimensions and time streams. Heroes see their otherworldly counterparts and even learn of potential futures that both please and shock them. This secret is kept from common man and most of the meta-human population.” - Secret Files & Origins Guide to the DC Universe 2000 001. The description of Hypertime as diverging and later converging timelines is not even accurate as it is only mentioned in The Kingdom by Hyperman; however, this is not the way it is treated in almost all depictions. In the comic arc Hypertension, which is easily the most significant Hypertime story, it is treated as being indistinguishable from the multiverse. Second of all, now that Hypertime has been revamped and brought back into the mainstream, it has become FAR more significant in scale and importance than it ever was when originally introduced. Now in its full capacity it is a Sixth Dimensional construct. As Elizio33 and I have discussed in the main DC discussion thread, there are levels to Hypertime. As the temporal half of the Divine Continuum, the local version of Hypertime is basically just the diverging timelines of each universe.

Another misconception is that there was ever a point in DC where there was only a finite number of Earths. The ONLY time when this was accurate was just after The Crisis On Infinite Earths when there was just one universe; however, this did not last long:

• There are 47 comic issues that mention there being infinite universes in the Pre-Crisis Era (likely FAR more; however, older comics from this era have poor scan quality and as such are annoying to read), There are 41 such comics in the Post-Crisis Era (there probably are not that many more, if any, left to be found), There are 19 in the New-52 (again probably not many left to be found here), 24 in Rebirth, and there are already a shocking 35 in the Post Death Metal Continuity. (Discounting the likely dozens of comics from the Pre-Crisis Era that mention Infinite universe that I have not indexed yet, this is pretty much every time that Infinite Universes have been discussed in the entirety of DC comics history)
• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._How_many_Universes_in_the_main_DC_Multiverse

 

[Bimgus8010]

@Qawsedf234

Can this be used to scale this version of brainiac to bleed?

-he exist outside space and time, described as a hyper dimensional plunderer
-his energies in his system is described of that similar to bleed

Or how barbatos can shake the strings of the multiverse?

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/b/b3/Anti-Music1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20190119050228