Honkai: Star Rail Discussion Thread

[SuperNova55555]

Well if you are saying the Imaginary is the superior form of concepts and where they originate from, then the Imaginary is CM1. But it's clear that Paths also have sway over the universe. And they don't have any of CM2's "weaknesses".

And no I disagree. Yes. Aftertaste did not change in its essence. The concept was simply allocated from Voracity to Elation (the same way Imaginary Energy is allocated from the Imaginary into Paths). It did not change in any way how it's perceived because it was simply stolen from one Path to another..

Aftertaste would exist either way as a concept within the Imaginary. It's just that the Paths took it under their domain. Even if it's "aftertaste-for-voracity" as you say, that concept is still taken from the Imaginary and "kept" under either Path's control and manifests in a way the Path/Aeon controls. The effects of the Paths are CM1 for the universe and distributed across its entirety because they are taken from the Imaginary that is CM1 in itself and has all the concepts already emerged. Idk if you get it I know I am not explaining it well but I can't put it into thoughts rn...

Yea… I don’t see how this addresses anything.

As for the Imaginary, what it refers to is extremely vague. Whether its CM1 or not is completely up for debate, it would simply possess the causal power of the Paths within it.. which is fine for CM2 ig. To say something is “contained” within the Imaginary is the same as saying normal matter is contained within it as being the ordered version of it, because Imaginary Space after all contains the potential for manifest all ordered matter.

 

[Le'garde273]

But then you realize this is the only time Genshin has CM1 back when Genshin Souls were 1:1 of Honkai

Lol garri and you guys literally gatekeep soul stuff from having same fundamental since long ago until cas chan brought up

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Yea… I don’t see how this addresses anything.

As for the Imaginary, what it refers to is extremely vague. Whether its CM1 or not is completely up for debate, it would simply possess the causal power of the Paths within it.. which is fine for CM2 ig. To say something is “contained” within the Imaginary is the same as saying normal matter is contained within it as being the ordered version of it, because Imaginary Space after all contains the potential for manifest all ordered matter.

For something to be CM2 it needs to have CM2's directionality over the concepts it represents. Otherwise, it's just not it.

Besides, Voracity being affected and in turn every Voracity creature being affected, is already a CM1 feat. Whatever theories we each have about IE or the Paths are irrelevant. Universals don't need to affect every being in every way. Even if it's just Voracity creatures, it's enough.

 

[SuperNova55555]

For something to be CM2 it needs to have CM2's directionality over the concepts it represents. Otherwise, it's just not it.

Besides, Voracity being affected and in turn every Voracity creature being affected, is already a CM1 feat. Whatever theories we each have about IE or the Paths are irrelevant. Universals don't need to affect every being in every way. Even if it's just Voracity creatures, it's enough.

You can have all of this in CM2, lmao.

 

[Le'garde273]

Besides, Voracity being affected and in turn every Voracity creature being affected, is already a CM1 feat.

That's literally how cm2 work, how in the world that was type 1 arguments

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

You can have all of this in CM2, lmao.

How can you have CM2 without directionality?

That's literally how cm2 work, how in the world that was type 1 arguments

No it isn't.

 

[SuperNova55555]

How can you have CM2 without directionality?

What tf does directionality imply

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

What tf does directionality imply

*bidirectionality

 

[SuperNova55555]

*bidirectionality

I already explained it’s dependence on the Path in the original comment I posted.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I already explained it’s dependence on the Path in the original comment I posted.

If you mean the relationship between the imaginary and the path, there's quite literally no correlation. That's a cosmology thing.

 

[SuperNova55555]

If you mean the relationship between the imaginary and the path, there's quite literally no correlation. That's a cosmology thing.

All you did was suggest the existence of some third-party concept to resolve the issue of contingency that way. You didnt address any of my other points.

 

[Mbpoops]

Why isn't vietthai wanking

If you laugh.

 

[Mbpoops]

I mean tbf the entire path of voracity was changed by losing the concept of taste buds so taste buds being the particular of voracity changed the main body concept aka voracity. Thats type 2 not 1

 

[SuperNova55555]

I mean tbf the entire path of voracity was changed by losing the concept of taste buds so taste buds being the particular of voracity changed the main body concept aka voracity. Thats type 2 not 1

Just let me debate this one by myself

 

[Mbpoops]

Just let me debate this one by myself

Was it that bad

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

All you did was suggest the existence of some third-party concept to resolve the issue of contingency that way. You didnt address any of my other points.

What points? You said the the relationship between the Imaginary and Paths is causal. Which I didn't disagree with. Except, it doesn't do anything on its own. Even if the relationship Imaginary -> Paths is CM1, it doesn't mean Paths can't then in turn apply those concepts upon the universe.

I mean tbf the entire path of voracity was changed by losing the concept of taste buds so taste buds being the particular of voracity changed the main body concept aka voracity. Thats type 2 not 1

That's CM1 manipulation TOWARDS the Path. Because the Path is CM1 and applies CM1 concepts across the universe.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Was it that bad

 

[SuperNova55555]

What points? You said the the relationship between the Imaginary and Paths is causal. Which I didn't disagree with. Except, it doesn't do anything on its own. Even if the relationship Imaginary -> Paths is CM1, it doesn't mean Paths can't then in turn apply those concepts upon the universe.

Cuz the concept of Paths is only immanent in what it predicates.

Well, firstly, to clarify, it’s not the concept-itself, but rather the concept as it is instantiated in the Path. So it is not Aftertaste-itself but rather Aftertaste across Voracity/Elation. Which is obvious, since it’s not as if Destruction only existed after Nanook’s ascension, but this is more of a preface.

And the concept itself is inter-related with the medium by which particulars relate back to, that is, Imaginary Energy. Since the Path is after all just a conglomerate of energy. So the destruction of the Path is consequently the destruction of the concept. Which is exactly what happens with Nous and Irontomb.

Irontomb directly affects the Path by affecting the Erudition constants within the cosmos, that is, intellectual beings themselves. Because Erudition is instantiated as the intellect of things and destroying that intellect leads go the destruction of Erudition-itself. Which is by-itself related to Lygus’ statement on how notions manifest themselves as dependent on the perception of the subjects. This of course being a reference to phenomenology in relation to quantum mechanics.

It’s also, ya know, further dependent on the energy itself to exist, as that is what is used to create the Path when an Aeon ascends. But Aeons themselves are also not the concept-itself, as seen when one dies and the Path remains (also the fact they can turn away from it). Nor is it a true universal, because the concept of a Path as said in the preface, isn’t the concept-itself, but only how it relates to entities within the Path. But to be CM1, you’d have to prove the concept of a Path exists independently of the Path itself, which is untenable since it is arises directly of the Imaginary itself; that is how Aeons attain power.

Also, for example, how Finality relates to Time. The former is the concept of the latter, but it is simultaneously bound to it. And we know this, because the “entirety” of Terminus’ power which is divided is also the “entirety” of the Path’s power itself. But uh, Terminus is bound by Time. Sure, it has as much control over it as one can achieve, but it is still pretty explicitly a temporal entity considering the “entirety” of it travels through it.

 

[Mbpoops]

That's CM1 manipulation TOWARDS the Path. Because the Path is CM1 and applies CM1 concepts across the universe.

the particular changing the path… if it was cm1 then losing the concept of taste buds would mean voracity doesnt change the fact the entire path of voracity changed from losing a particular means its not independant from what its governing

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

I can't even reply to that.

CM1 doesn't require "Aftertaste" itself to exist as a Platonic Form completely detached from everything. Even from the Imaginary. It requires the concept governing the domain to be an a universal. Which is one.

And I'd suggest you read the CM1 description again because it doesn't say a concept needs to be independant from every metaphysical structure. Just independant from every part of reality it governs. Origin is irrelevant.

As for irontomb, it affected actual info and data as well. So if you are saying that it affected only things that would impact the Erudition, then you are pretty much implying that all sorts of data and info is under it which has a bunch of implications.

And I am not gonna talk about the quantum stuff cuz idgaf about it I am sorry

the particular changing the path… if it was cm1 then losing the concept of taste buds would mean voracity doesnt change the fact the entire path of voracity changed from losing a particular means its not independant from what its governing

What? No..? You can conceptually manipulate type 1 universals?! Voracity was altered and in turn it altered every being connected with it. That's not a CM2 antifeat. The CM2 antifeat would be every voracity monster losing aftertaste and this affecting the path or oroboros. Which didn't happen.

Girl go away you are making it worse.

 

[Voidnether]

Lol garri and you guys literally gatekeep soul stuff from having same fundamental since long ago until cas chan brought up

You do realize CM1 addition is way before it being gatekept by Garri?

 

[Mbpoops]

What? No..? You can conceptually manipulate type 1 universals?! Voracity was altered and in turn it altered every being connected with it. That's not a CM2 antifeat. The CM2 antifeat would be every voracity monster losing aftertaste and this affecting the path or oroboros. Which didn't happen.

Girl go away you are making it worse.

yea you can manipulate type 1 concepts.

manipulating a type 1 concept and that manipulation affected everything the concept embodies is fine, the issue with the voracity thing is that Aha or enroute (icr who did it) didnt affect voracity directly they affected it's particular, I.E tastebuds, which caused the entire path to change.

they did NOT directly affect the universal concept (voracity) directly only the particular (tastebuds) and this cause the entire universal (voracity) to change. this is CM2

 

[SuperNova55555]

I can't even reply to that.

CM1 doesn't require "Aftertaste" itself to exist as a Platonic Form completely detached from everything. Even from the Imaginary. It requires the concept governing the domain to be an a universal. Which is one.

And I'd suggest you read the CM1 description again because it doesn't say a concept needs to be independant from every metaphysical structure. Just independant from every part of reality it governs. Origin is irrelevant.

As for irontomb, it affected actual info and data as well. So if you are saying that it affected only things that would impact the Erudition, then you are pretty much implying that all sorts of data and info is under it which has a bunch of implications.

And I am not gonna talk about the quantum stuff cuz idgaf about it I am sorry

Shakes head in disappointment

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

yea you can manipulate type 1 concepts.

manipulating a type 1 concept and that manipulation affected everything the concept embodies is fine, the issue with the voracity thing is that Aha or enroute (icr who did it) didnt affect voracity directly they affected it's particular, I.E tastebuds, which caused the entire path to change.

they did NOT directly affect the universal concept (voracity) directly only the particular (tastebuds) and this cause the entire universal (voracity) to change. this is CM2

?? Because Paths contain multiple aspects and have multiple manifestations? Also what in the blazes are you talking about? RM specifically says the entire path was affected and an entire concept from it stolen. It didn't just affect the ******* tastebuds. Lmfao. This organ disappearing is the effect of voracity losing a concept that manifested into those monsters in this form.

Shakes head in disappointment

Whatever babe

 

[Mbpoops]

?? Because Paths contain multiple aspects and have multiple manifestations? Also what in the blazes are you talking about? RM specifically says the entire path was affected and an entire concept from it stolen. It didn't just affect the ******* tastebuds. Lmfao. This organ disappearing is the effect of voracity losing a concept that manifested into those monsters in this form.

You are literally explaining why it is cm2 lol

RM says the entire path was affected when it lost a concept, not THE concept (voracity) just a concept participating in the voracity. That is CM2, if voracity stayed the same after losing a concept then it could be cm1 but the fact the entire concept of voracity was chsnged by losing something that was apart of the concept proves its not an independent universal

 

[Mbpoops]

https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiAgendaRail/s/tMetef4Auy

This is kinda real they gave up after kiana. I love seele but as an mc she was so ******* boring man

Trailbalzer has no reason to care abt anything thats going on and they keep vagueposting their lore as a stellaron hunter

Belle and wise idk j just think zzz writing is slop

Traveler… i dont even need to say anything

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

You are literally explaining why it is cm2 lol

RM says the entire path was affected when it lost a concept, not THE concept (voracity) just a concept participating in the voracity. That is CM2, if voracity stayed the same after losing a concept then it could be cm1 but the fact the entire concept of voracity was chsnged by losing something that was apart of the concept proves its not an independent universal

You are just saying things. Like actually. Go read CM types and look at some posts or something.

CM1 doesn't require a concept to be independent of its own constituent aspects. It requires independence from the reality it governs. Removing Aftertaste from the Path changes Voracity because you're modifying the Path itself. The relevant question is whether Voracity changed because its instances changed, or whether its instances changed because Voracity changed. Ruan Mei explicitly describes the latter. A concept disappeared from the Path first, and every manifestation aligned with Voracity changed afterward. That's not the dependency CM2 is referring to in any case.

I am not talking to you about this again until you prove you read what each Type is.

 

[Mbpoops]

HE/IE does follow the first law of thermodynamics

 

[SuperNova55555]

Traveler… i dont even need to say anything

Hey, DADDY Aether has so many (heterosexual) waifus, he’s the GOAT thats my glorious masculine and muscular KING

 

[Mbpoops]

You are just saying things. Like actually. Go read CM types and look at some posts or something.

CM1 doesn't require a concept to be independent of its own constituent aspects. It requires independence from the reality it governs.

In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

Removing Aftertaste from the Path changes Voracity because you're modifying the Path itself.

Are you arguing that voracity itself is the concept of taste buds?

The relevant question is whether Voracity changed because its instances changed, or whether its instances changed because Voracity changed. Ruan Mei explicitly describes the latter. A concept disappeared from the Path first, and every manifestation aligned with Voracity changed afterward. That's not the dependency CM2 is referring to in any case.

You just described the former but said “RM describes the latter”

I am not talking to you about this again until you prove you read what each Type is.

 

[Mbpoops]

Hey, DADDY Aether has so many (heterosexual) waifus, he’s the GOAT thats my glorious masculine and muscular KING

Genuienly rover

 

[SuperNova55555]

Genuienly rover

When they start shipping him with Aemeath

 

[Mbpoops]

When they start shipping him with Aemeath

The girl from anime vanguards

 

[SuperNova55555]

The girl from anime vanguards

Tell me when they add Klein

 

[Mbpoops]

Ruan mei: “a concept was removed from the voracity”

What you’re basically arguing is that the concept of taste buds is voracity itself and voracity was removed from voracity (manipulated)

 

[Mbpoops]

Tell me when they add Klein

Maybe if they unban me from the server

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Are you arguing that voracity itself is the concept of taste buds?

It began with it in it and it was a part of it.

You just described the former but said “RM describes the latter”

I did not.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Ruan mei: “a concept was removed from the voracity”

What you’re basically arguing is that the concept of taste buds is voracity itself and voracity was removed from voracity (manipulated)

A concept was removed from a greater concept.

 

[Mbpoops]

A concept was removed from a greater concept.

So a concept participating in the greater concept was removed which affected the greater concept. Thats cm2

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

So a concept participating in the greater concept was removed which affected the greater concept. Thats cm2

No no be nice...i’m finding it…it take you that long to find it? it does… It won't.

Mfer that's part of its internal conceptual structure what the actual **** are you talmbout??? Can you quote the part of the CM2 definition that says "if removing a constituent concept changes the larger concept, it's CM2"???