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Pretty clear issue with All For One's profile

AllForOne

AllForOne

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So can somebody please explain why Mirko is somehow stronger than Rewind AFO or Masked AFO? I'm literally watching this get made fun of over on reddit.

MIrko

All For One

I could 'understand' an argument for her being 'above' Masked AFO simply because she has some feats against Completed Shigaraki. However, why is she SOMEHOW stronger than Rewind AFO? The same one who was very confident in being able to fight against if need be and transfer his quirk into completed ShigarakI? Are we also saying Mirko is stronger than Endeavor? The Number One hero who took it upon himself to fight personally fight 75% Shigaraki and later AFO himself? Apparently, she was always on the same level of Prime All Might all along despite never once being compared to him at all in any aspect of the series?

This makes zero sense in the scope of the lore and the generally easy to understand pecking order of the verse.

Rewind AFO should be Continent level instead of Country level at the very least. I'm rather sure he has higher stats than her in the data books written with Horikoshi's input to further back it up.

Also... can we restore a key for Prime AFO? I think he has enough content to deserve a separate tiering. If it's a content issue, there are plenty of examples for his quirks since most of them were carried over from his Prime loadout. (Spearlike bones, Rivet Stab, Hypertrophy, Telekinesis, Life Force, Screw, Spatial Distortion to name some.)
 
There doesn't seem to be a key for Prime AFO. His weakened key is scaled to weakened All Might.
 
CastoriceTheFifth said:
Do we need to? The only difference between a Rewind AFO key and a Prime AFO key is that Rewind AFO rewinds. Other than that, hes pretty much Prime AFO.
Click to expand...
I guess. The issue then becomes Mirko being comparable to Prime AFO and All Might. She seems to only have this in a second key though, meaning that power didn't exist at the same time as their primes.
 
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CastoriceTheFifth said:
Bro came back from the depths for this CRT 😭
Click to expand...
This is my namesake. I had to 😭

Random-Helper323 said:
There doesn't seem to be a key for Prime AFO. His weakened key is scaled to weakened All Might.
Click to expand...
'Prime AFO' is the version before their first fight, which takes place before All Might meets Deku. He's basically on the same level as Prime All Might with a healthy body and much more quirk storage capacity and speed.

I think we had it once, but it got removed a long time ago. I guess there wasn't enough public information going around about him back then.

Rewind AFO is the most important key in question tho since that's the one not being properly scaled properly.
 
AllForOne said:
Also... can we restore a key for Prime AFO?
Click to expand...
d4fafda2e0bb44c0b653c1e069021c7d~tplv-jj85edgx6n-image-origin.jpeg
 
Random-Helper323 said:
I guess. The issue then becomes Mirko bring comparable to Prime AFO and All Might. She seems to only have this in a second key though, meaning that power didn't exist at the same time as their primes.
Click to expand...
The reason why Rewind/Prime AFO is not scaling to Prime AM is this

"We have no idea how he did that. We already know AFO switched up his Quirks drastically from his Prime as well, as Gran Torino said his fighting style was completely different. AFO isn't All Might, he can have access to a wide variety of hax and other powers.

Even if it wasn't a hax ability, it's possible AFO only injured All Might with one attack, which is the attack that blew his guts away. And it's possible All Might only ever landed one direct hit on AFO, which is what blew his head off. Any scaling of Prime AFO relies on massive assumptions.

He used an unknown Quirk to blow a hole into All Might and we don't know if he can take hits from him.

His powers are completely different compared to his Weakened self, and we have no idea what these powers are. The only thing we can do with Prime AFO is scale him above Weakened AFO and maybe have a possibly rating for an unknown attack that blew a hole into All Might.

Along with removing most of his abilities besides some very basic Quirks. 90% of Prime AFO is a mystery we cannot answer.

We know for a fact that All Might NEVER dodges, him dodging was stated to be unusual. As AFO said, All Might's classic style is no dodging and rushing head first through everything. This is how he defeated Prime AFO. This is pretty much impossible if every single attack from AFO can blow a hole through All Might.

Which confirms what he did was special. However, Gran Torino implied AFO did that by making All Might drop his guard by taunting him. Meaning it's possible he never could overpower All Might with any attack and just made him lower his defenses.

Too much speculations and unknowns, it's impossible to properly rate Prime AFO." - Rusty

Thats the current reason.
 
Okay. I suppose Mirko scaling as high as she does just for staggering Shigaraki could be called into question. Normally that'd be enough to downscale though. We could possibly talk about downscaling All Might and AFO from Shigaraki.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
I guess. The issue then becomes Mirko bring comparable to Prime AFO and All Might. She seems to only have this in a second key though, meaning that power didn't exist at the same time as their primes.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I have no idea what that 'rabbit' key means since she doesn't undergo any huge powerups or quirk awakenings between the first war and the final war. Technically, she was weaker in the final war due to losing multiple limbs in the first war.

My guess is it's because she put in some work against quirkless completed Shigaraki, who is stated to be Prime All Might level.

Which is fine, but it doesn't make sense for her to be scaled higher than Rewind AFO, who's generally considered to be the strongest All For One before he starts rewinding into a teenager.

I mean, Rewind AFO's whole plan was to get to Tomura and transfer his copied quirk to him by force if necessary. I can link the panels.

So he should be Continental instead of Country. Otherwise we're saying a character treated much weaker than most of the top tiers is stronger than the main antagonist by a large amount.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Okay. I suppose Mirko scaling as high as she does just for staggering Shigaraki could be called into question. Normally that'd be enough to downscale though. We could possibly talk about downscaling All Might and AFO from Shigaraki.
Click to expand...
Mirko didn't just make him stagger, she drew blood from him.

She can also one shot weakened All Might level characters.

To make it clear, Prime/Rewind AFO scaling to Prime All Might was already solidly rejected. We've never seen their fight, but we know AFO was inferior to All Might because AFO spent years hiding from him. When All Might returned from America, AFO had no choice but to restrict himself to avoid a confrontation.

There's just no proof that Prime AFO even hurt All Might outside of the attack that blew his stomach away, and we don't know what kind of attack that was. There's no way All Might could "tank" AFO's attacks if he was strong enough to blow straight through his body. It's clear whatever did had to be special in someway.

Also, we have no idea if Prime AFO could take hits from All Might. From what we've seen, it's completely possible the face destroying punch was the only hit he took. Prime AFO spent years hiding from Prime All Might, doing his best to not draw his attention. He was well aware how badly a confrontation between them would end for him.

The only way for Prime/Rewind AFO to scale would be if we actually see the fight. The current statements and vague looks we've gotten are not enough for scaling.

I proposed that AFO's Omni-Factor Unleash should scale to Prime All Might/Complete Shigaraki, but that was rejected.

All AFO has to do is touch Shigaraki, he doesn't need to defeat him in battle.

The OP is arguing from incredulity. He cannot believe Mirko is this strong, so it must be wrong. The truth is clear though. She tears through the bodies of High-Ends, who are stronger than the USJ Nomu and USJ All Might, even capable of one shotting them if they didn't have regeneration or if she hits their heads.

She made Shigaraki bleed with her Luna Rush, which is clear scaling.

AllForOne said:
Honestly, I have no idea what that 'rabbit' key means since she doesn't undergo any huge powerups or quirk awakenings between the first war and the final war. Technically, she was weaker in the final war due to losing multiple limbs in the first war.
Click to expand...
Rabbit is the name of her Quirk. Her legs are stronger than the rest of her body, so we label that differently.
 
TheRustyOne said:
Mirko didn't just make him stagger, she drew blood from him.

She can also one shot weakened All Might level characters.

To make it clear, Prime/Rewind AFO scaling to Prime All Might was already solidly rejected. We've never seen their fight, but we know AFO was inferior to All Might because AFO spent years hiding from him. When All Might returned from America, AFO had no choice but to restrict himself to avoid a confrontation.

There's just no proof that Prime AFO even hurt All Might outside of the attack that blew his stomach away, and we don't know what kind of attack that was. There's no way All Might could "tank" AFO's attacks if he was strong enough to blow straight through his body. It's clear whatever did had to be special in someway.

Also, we have no idea if Prime AFO could take hits from All Might. From what we've seen, it's completely possible the face destroying punch was the only hit he took. Prime AFO spent years hiding from Prime All Might, doing his best to not draw his attention. He was well aware how badly a confrontation between them would end for him.

The only way for Prime/Rewind AFO to scale would be if we actually see the fight. The current statements and vague looks we've gotten are not enough for scaling.

I proposed that AFO's Omni-Factor Unleash should scale to Prime All Might/Complete Shigaraki, but that was rejected.

All AFO has to do is touch Shigaraki, he doesn't need to defeat him in battle.

The OP is arguing from incredulity. He cannot believe Mirko is this strong, so it must be wrong. The truth is clear though. She tears through the bodies of High-Ends, who are stronger than the USJ Nomu and USJ All Might, even capable of one shotting them if they didn't have regeneration or if she hits their heads.

She made Shigaraki bleed with her Luna Rush, which is clear scaling.


Rabbit is the name of her Quirk. Her legs are stronger than the rest of her body, so we label that differently.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. I'm just trying to work things out, since I stopped following MHA after the ending came out.

If she made Shigaraki bleed and staggered him with her strikes, she downscales. If the High Ends are stronger than the USJ Nomu, they're above or at least comparable to weakened All Might. If Mirko shreds them, she's got to be above weakened All Might. It is a bit strange, given weakened All Might was still treated as stronger than Endeavour, but the feats are there.
 
TheRustyOne said:
Mirko didn't just make him stagger, she drew blood from him.
Click to expand...
So? Bakugo burned him slightly and yet we don't put him on the same level of Izuku when it's clear there is a gap between them.

CastoriceTheFifth said:
Even if it wasn't a hax ability, it's possible AFO only injured All Might with one attack, which is the attack that blew his guts away. And it's possible All Might only ever landed one direct hit on AFO, which is what blew his head off. Any scaling of Prime AFO relies on massive assumptions.
Click to expand...
Don't tell me you are seriously using this as your argument? Mirko's 'Luna Rush' is Prime All Might level, but the strongest version of AFO isn't? Reread the story and consider the narrative implications.

We also have databooks that clearly put AFO on the same level as Endeavor, even in his weakened form. Endeavor is considered the strongest in Japan after All Might and has put in plenty of work against, almost killing Shigaraki, who was already close to Prime All Might level.

I also will also reemphasize to do more research on the character you're arguing against so you can come to better conclusions.

Rewind AFO > Every version of Mirko

This is exemplified in the databooks.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
If she made Shigaraki bleed and staggered him with her strikes, she downscales. If the High Ends are stronger than the USJ Nomu, they're above or at least comparable to weakened All Might. If Mirko shreds them, she's got to be above weakened All Might. It is a bit strange, given weakened All Might was still treated as stronger than Endeavour, but the feats are there.
Click to expand...
Her profile directly states she is downscaling. She is weaker, but comparable enough to draw blood with her kicks.

Staggered Complete Shigaraki's body with her kicks and even drew blood from him with her Luna Rush, which forced him to evolve into a more defensive form. Her kicks were able to tear through the bodies of several High-End Nomus, who were stated to be as strong as Hood and stronger than the USJ Nomu.

(Downscales From 1.12 Petatons of TNT)

In terms of raw striking strength, Mirko is indeed stronger than Endeavor. (She would lose in a direct fight as she lacks heat resistance and any ranged attacks)

Battles in MHA come down more to raw power.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Fair enough. I'm just trying to work things out, since I stopped following MHA after the ending came out.

If she made Shigaraki bleed and staggered him with her strikes, she downscales. If the High Ends are stronger than the USJ Nomu, they're above or at least comparable to weakened All Might. If Mirko shreds them, she's got to be above weakened All Might. It is a bit strange, given weakened All Might was still treated as stronger than Endeavour, but the feats are there.
Click to expand...
It makes zero sense?? Why didn't she just go solo AFO if she's that strong? Deku didn't even need to be there, she's apparently enough by this fallable logic.

Rewind AFO was going to fight completed Shigaraki as I stated and confidently believed he could transfer his quirk to him. The only reason this never happens is because every character in the verse stalls for time to run out on his Rewind Drug to prevent this wincon scenario.
 
TheRustyOne said:
Her profile directly states she is downscaling. She is weaker, but comparable enough to draw blood with her kicks.

Staggered Complete Shigaraki's body with her kicks and even drew blood from him with her Luna Rush, which forced him to evolve into a more defensive form. Her kicks were able to tear through the bodies of several High-End Nomus, who were stated to be as strong as Hood and stronger than the USJ Nomu.

(Downscales From 1.12 Petatons of TNT)

In terms of raw striking strength, Mirko is indeed stronger than Endeavor. (She would lose in a direct fight as she lacks heat resistance and any ranged attacks)

Battles in MHA come down more to raw power.
Click to expand...
That's fine. I was analysing and confirming what you're saying. I agree she has to scale.

I'm not trying to make revisions, I'm trying to figure things out and keep things accurate and reasonable.
 
AllForOne said:
It makes zero sense?? Why didn't she just go solo AFO if she's that strong? Deku didn't even need to be there, she's apparently enough by this fallable logic.
Click to expand...
She is still weaker than Deku. Vegeta was able to somewhat hurt Cell during the Cell Games, but he couldn't have beaten him. Same rule applies.
AllForOne said:
Rewind AFO was going to fight completed Shigaraki as I stated and confidently believed he could transfer his quirk to him. The only reason this never happens is because every character in the verse stalls for time to run out on his Rewind Drug to prevent this wincon scenario.
Click to expand...
Rusty says all he had to do was touch rather than beat him, and I know they were saying Shigaraki was stronger than AFO.
 
AllForOne said:
It makes zero sense?? Why didn't she just go solo AFO if she's that strong? Deku didn't even need to be there, she's apparently enough by this fallable logic.

Rewind AFO was going to fight completed Shigaraki as I stated and confidently believed he could transfer his quirk to him. The only reason this never happens is because every character in the verse stalls for time to run out on his Rewind Drug to prevent this wincon scenario.
Click to expand...
AFO would stomp Mirko easily. I don't even mean Rewind AFO.

She has no ranged attacks and is noticeably slower than Rewind AFO. She cannot blitz weakened AFO either.

You're thinking that power equals everything in a fight, but you're wrong. Just cause Mirko can one shot AFO doesn't mean she could.

He'd blow her away with a single Air Cannon Combination. Sure, she'd survive the first few hits, but she has no counter to that.

She's no threat to him in a straight fight. She also cannot fly either. She basically can never reach him.

Rewind AFO was not going to fight Shigaraki. All he has to do is touch him so he can transfer himself and his Quirks into his mind.

All he needs is speed, not power.

Also, Mirko is way weaker than Izuku. She's weaker than Shigaraki. She just drew enough to make him bleed slightly.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
Rusty says all he had to do was touch rather than beat him, and I know they were saying Shigaraki was stronger than AFO.
Click to expand...
Okay, I'm going to stop you right there. They said this in comparison to his weakened masked version. Not the Rewind version we later see.

My argument is not that he's stronger or equal to Tomura but that he should directly downscale to Continent level from him since they literally have the same quirk. (The difference is that Shigaraki's body is naturally Prime AM level while AFO himself relies on his quirks to maintain that tier of power)
 
TheRustyOne said:
Rewind AFO was not going to fight Shigaraki
Click to expand...
Yes he was?? This right here tells me you didn't read the chapters in question.

AFO literally is quoted saying that "conflict with Tomura was inevitable." Since he was actively rejecting him.

Do you have access to the manga? If not maybe I could link you to a free site where you can access it? Cause this is... concerning levels of miscomprehension.
 
AllForOne said:
My argument is not that he's stronger or equal to Tomura but that he should directly downscale to Continent level from him since they literally have the same quirk. (The difference is that Shigaraki's body is naturally Prime AM level while AFO himself relies on his quirks to maintain that tier of power)
Click to expand...
Tomura was a unique case, in fairness. I could see a path to downscaling AFO from Shigaraki, but I think we need more evidence, especially when we have no proof he was ever at Tomura's level to begin with.
 
The big issue the OP has is Prime/Rewind AFO.

The problem is that Prime AFO is a massive unknown. We never saw their fight, but it's confirmed that Prime AFO is weaker than Prime All Might.

We already know AFO switched up his Quirks drastically from his Prime as well, as Gran Torino said his fighting style was completely different during their Kamino fight. AFO isn't All Might, he can have access to a wide variety of hax and other powers.

Even if it wasn't a hax ability, it's possible AFO only injured All Might with one attack, which is the attack that blew his guts away. And it's possible All Might only ever landed one direct hit on AFO, which is what blew his head off. Any scaling of Prime AFO relies on massive assumptions.

He used an unknown Quirk to blow a hole into All Might and we don't know if he can take hits from him. (Rewind AFO is such a glass cannon that I doubt AFO was ever durable enough to withstand a single hit from Prime All Might.)

The only thing we can do with Prime AFO is scale him above Weakened AFO and maybe have a possibly rating for an unknown attack that blew a hole into All Might.

Along with removing most of his abilities besides some basic Quirks. 90% of Prime AFO is a mystery we cannot answer.

We know for a fact that All Might NEVER dodges, him dodging was stated to be unusual. As AFO said, All Might's classic style is no dodging and rushing head first through everything. This is how he defeated Prime AFO. This is pretty much impossible if every single attack from AFO can blow a hole through All Might.

Which confirms that what he did was special. However, Gran Torino implied AFO did that by making All Might drop his guard by taunting him. Meaning it's possible he never could overpower All Might with any attack and just made him lower his defenses.

Too much speculations and unknowns, it's impossible to properly rate Prime AFO.

We need proof, not feelings or belief. Nothing about the story breaks with Rewind AFO not scaling to Shigaraki.
 
The wound in All Might's gut does seem to be circular and has a notable central focal point, like he was hit with a drill, shot or beam. It didn't look like it was inflicted with a punch, that's for sure.
 
TheRustyOne said:
The big issue the OP has is Prime/Rewind AFO.

The problem is that Prime AFO is a massive unknown. We never saw their fight, but it's confirmed that Prime AFO is weaker than Prime All Might.

We already know AFO switched up his Quirks drastically from his Prime as well, as Gran Torino said his fighting style was completely different during their Kamino fight. AFO isn't All Might, he can have access to a wide variety of hax and other powers.

Even if it wasn't a hax ability, it's possible AFO only injured All Might with one attack, which is the attack that blew his guts away. And it's possible All Might only ever landed one direct hit on AFO, which is what blew his head off. Any scaling of Prime AFO relies on massive assumptions.

He used an unknown Quirk to blow a hole into All Might and we don't know if he can take hits from him. (Rewind AFO is such a glass cannon that I doubt AFO was ever durable enough to withstand a single hit from Prime All Might.)

The only thing we can do with Prime AFO is scale him above Weakened AFO and maybe have a possibly rating for an unknown attack that blew a hole into All Might.

Along with removing most of his abilities besides some basic Quirks. 90% of Prime AFO is a mystery we cannot answer.

We know for a fact that All Might NEVER dodges, him dodging was stated to be unusual. As AFO said, All Might's classic style is no dodging and rushing head first through everything. This is how he defeated Prime AFO. This is pretty much impossible if every single attack from AFO can blow a hole through All Might.

Which confirms that what he did was special. However, Gran Torino implied AFO did that by making All Might drop his guard by taunting him. Meaning it's possible he never could overpower All Might with any attack and just made him lower his defenses.

Too much speculations and unknowns, it's impossible to properly rate Prime AFO.

We need proof, not feelings or belief. Nothing about the story breaks with Rewind AFO not scaling to Shigaraki.
Click to expand...
Sorry to have a late response, but do we hold that Prime AFO had different quirks than what we saw in Rewind? Weakened AFO in the fight versus Endeavor compared to after he activated Rewind started using completely different quirks; the space warping quirk, black ball and impure beam

It is partially speculation but still
 
Mazdoesstuff said:
Sorry to have a late response, but do we hold that Prime AFO had different quirks than what we saw in Rewind?
Click to expand...
We have no idea. We'd need to see Prime AFO fight. Once again, we know nothing. Too many unknowns. Nothing confirms or denies it. All we know is that AFO used difference Quirks against All Might during their Kamino fight. He can use more Quirks because his body is stronger and he doesn't have to worry about the damage.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks or says. Prime AFO's kit is 90% unknown. Maybe he still has them, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he isn't using them, maybe he is.

There's simply no point in discussing it.
 
TheRustyOne said:
We have no idea. We'd need to see Prime AFO fight. Once again, we know nothing. Too many unknowns. Nothing confirms or denies it. All we know is that AFO used difference Quirks against All Might during their Kamino fight. He can use more Quirks because his body is stronger and he doesn't have to worry about the damage.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks or says. Prime AFO's kit is 90% unknown. Maybe he still has them, maybe he doesn't. Maybe he isn't using them, maybe he is.

There's simply no point in discussing it.
Click to expand...
That's not entirely true and you know it. We've had profiles for lesser showings from other verses.

Vigilantes shows us a few of Prime AFO's quirks. The flashbacks in the final arc also show us some that he currently has were also carried over from his Prime skillset.

We also have the All Might Rising panel which gives us several quirks to be considered.

If you need a list I'd be happy to compile it for you.

CastoriceTheFifth said:
Im like 80% sure it was that spatial quirk that did it.
Click to expand...
What happened to no hypotheticals? Changing the tune here.

Anyway, we know enough that the two are comparable which is the only point I want driven home here.

One detail I will bring up is that AFO clearly wasn't going for the kill on All Might when he injured him. That would risk destroying Yoichi for good. Which makes his whole plot irrelevant. He even mentions this when saying that Yoichi slipped through his fingers with his first fight against AM.

Obviously, All Might didn't have the same reservations. Which is why he directly went for a fatal blow.

If you need more contextual evidence they are in the same ballpark, consider that AFO wasn't even injured before All Might lands his final punch. So he was likely tanking casual blows throughout the fight while he tried out various quirks.

Random-Helper323 said:
That would fit, actually. The wound has a sort of spiral shape, and Hawks seems to be suffering a spiral shaped hit in the scan. It would explain the shape, the ability to harm All Might, yeah, makes sense.
Click to expand...
It looks more like he got his guts ripped out with the same Mouth quirk combination he used against Endeavor. The doctors had to stitch it up the best they could. (However he still lost his stomach and parts of his respiratory system.)

The two instances Spatial Warp has been used was instakill moments, too. Yoichi and Hawks, who only survived because AFO targeted an illusion by accident.
 
The only quirks I can explicitly recall Prime AFO using were the telekinesis quirk, the spatial warp quirk, and the black explosion quirk with the red electricity

Exclusive to the main series, there might be a few in vigilantes im forgetting
 
Mazdoesstuff said:
The only quirks I can explicitly recall Prime AFO using were the telekinesis quirk, the spatial warp quirk, and the black explosion quirk with the red electricity

Exclusive to the main series, there might be a few in vigilantes im forgetting
Click to expand...
He uses Hypertrophy and Rivet Stab in Vigilantes.

From his fight against Nana, we have teeth and eyeballs quirk, unamed green flesh growths, purple flames, and a rubber hose sort of looking tendril that whips the ground. (We see this again in the final battle vs Chaos AFO in possession of Shigaraki)

Then we see him using Screw and the unnamed Mouth quirk in the flashbacks of him killing the past OFA users.

We can also add in his facial shapeshifting quirk and the lie detection quirk he stated to have stolen back in his prime.

So quite a few quirks. It deserves at least some recognition on his profile.
 
Idk what OP on but as far as finding how strong prime AFO is I think I might have something (idk).
We know the doctor intended on modeling Shigaraki’s body to be capable of housing AFO’s quirk, that’s why when he first woke his body was blowing apart. He physically couldn’t withstand the amount of quirks his body held.
Completed Shigaraki was the intended target so at least in my mind, the doctor believed PAM physicals were needed to withstand all the quirks that came with AFO.
Maybe that’s a reach, but I feel like that’s enough to warrant a possible scaling.

Edit
There’s also this statement from Shigaraki, when questioned about his finger growth.
IsQo828R05LoPlWFLSBqnkDEx5reJE1757184025.jpg

He states that the AFO quirk and various external factors and the swarm of quirks have combined and molded his body into a suitable accommodation.
It’s not just the finger growth but also the fact that he gained physical strength on par with PAM because those various factors believed it was necessary.
 
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