MHA: Laser Upgrades

[TheRustyOne]

Alright, time to bite the bullet, although it might not be that controversial.

This CRT got the lasers used by Armored All Might and the X-66 Jets accepted as being light speed.

We have three calculations, and two of them point towards an upgrade.

Star's First Laser Catch: 0.50c (Relativistic+) Supporting Feat.

Star's Second Laser Catch: 0.77c (Relativistic+) Upgrade.

Armored All Might Dodges Laser: 1.68c (FTL) Upgrade.

Now, to explain the scaling.

Star and those who scale to her are currently 0.62c, so this is a minor boost for them.

The FTL value only scales to a few people. (Rewind AFO, Bakugo's Cluster, Complete Shigaraki, 100% Izuku, and Prime All Might.)

(None of this is travel speed. These are reactions and combat speed, so they're only for short distances. There will be a CRT going into travel speed in the future.)

Rewind All For One scales. He's shown to be faster than Armored All Might. Also, All Might had to restrain Rewind AFO. AFO would've been able to avoid the light speed attack if All Might hadn't restrained him, which means AFO getting hit by the laser isn't an anti-feat.

That is the only time the laser is used, and it breaks right afterward. The fact that All Might could dodge it means AFO could dodge it as well.

Bakugo's Cluster scales to Rewind AFO.

This scales to Complete Shigaraki as he could keep track of Bakugo's Cluster and landed a direct hit on him.

100% Full Cowl Izuku and Prime All Might would scale as well. Shigaraki is equal to Prime All Might, and 100% Full Cowl Izuku fights Complete Shigaraki.

No one else scales to this. Rewind AFO was able to output more from his Quirks the younger he got, so this FTL value doesn't scale to his Prime self, which Tokoyami and the others fought. Once AFO became even younger, he ignored Tokoyami and the others. Nothing from that point onward points to them scaling.

Hawks shielding Tokoyami isn't a feat either. AFO was hundreds of meters away from them.

A Relativistic+ character would be able to block that attack if we assumed it was FTL. All he has to do is move a few meters at most.

Character Pages: (I'm not putting all of the Relativistic+ cast in a sandbox just to change them from 0.62c to 0.77c.)

Verse Page: (The only changes are to the main calculation's speed section, and the notes speed section as well.)

Agree: CastoriceTheFifth, Therefir, Dalesean027, JoeDM02, Metalballrun, Anonymous_Learner, 1000TonsofFun, Damage3245, Nierre, (9)

Disagree: (0)

Inconclusive: (0)

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Looks good

 

[Mommyleona]

why would Mirio scale? pretty sure him being rel+ should already be enough to just activate his quirk in time to avoid Shigaraki ever touching him
and him scaling above the likes of weakened AM, Mirko, Prime AFO, S&S etc is kinda crazy

 

[Therefir]

I have always been wary about Mirio scaling from Prime AM characters.

Otherwise, this looks good.

 

[RigelBR7]

good

 

[TheRustyOne]

We can drop the currently accepted Mirio scaling if we want. Although I thought we agreed on Prime All Might level speed being able to blitz Weakened All Might level?

I have no problems either way. We just accepted it like that currently, so that's why I mentioned it.

 

[Machmatej]

I'm against Mirio's scaling, but other than that the revisions look nice

 

[Therefir]

Character Pages: (I'm not putting all of the Relativistic+ cast in a sandbox just to change them from 62.27% to 77% SoL.)

By the way, should we switch 77% SoL to 0.77c, or keep it as it is now and make 1.68c equal to 168% SoL?

I'd like to keep it consistent.

 

[Mommyleona]

i think 0.77c is better

 

[Dalesean027]

This looks fine to me and using "c" works better

 

[JoeDM021]

Looks good i dont see any major issues besides mirio

he found bakugo dodging shigaraki's attack impressive in which why would he be impressed if he could literally do it himself? I say its likely because he just preemptively had his intangibility up when facing shiggy

So put me up as agree on everything besides the mirio upgrade

 

[Metalballrun]

Correction for the calc blog: All Might's laser feat happens in Chapter 399 and 400. You mistakenly inputted the same chapters as the Star laser feat.

As for Mirio, he is a curious issue. His feat of keeping pace with Shigaraki was when Shigaraki was stationary and wasn't using his speed at all, and was using the slowed down Growth to attack Mirio. On top of that, Mirio has Analytical Prediction.
But it is also true that Defense Form Shigaraki chose to ignore Mirio despite having the speed to seemingly blitz Mirko.

So for now I'm neutral towards Mirio's speed. It depends on whether you think Tamaki and Nejire (and Mirko in the anime IIRC) were able to react to Shigaraki but unable to dodge his attacks in Chapter 366 (and whatever anime episode that was). Then Mirio remaining at Relativistic+ is fine due to his Permeation and Analytical Prediction allowing him to permeate and buzz around Shigaraki.

As for All Might, he says that he uses Invisible Girl optic resin to shield himself from the laser's heat, but I suppose that doesn't mean he didn't dodge the attack and he was just still close to the beam to feel the heat of it, yeah? Since the calc mentions he only moved less than 2 meters away from All For One. I'm just clarifying this instance to definitively say he managed to avoid the beam.
I'm generally iffy on anything FTL, but as it stands the feat checks out for me. Waiting for more insight on it.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

As for Mirio, he is a curious issue. His feat of keeping pace with Shigaraki was when Shigaraki was stationary and wasn't using his speed at all, and was using the slowed down Growth to attack Mirio. On top of that, Mirio has Analytical Prediction.
But it is also true that Defense Form Shigaraki chose to ignore Mirio despite having the speed to seemingly blitz Mirko.

I'm 90% sure this was because Mirio did not have the power necessary to hurt Shigaraki, while Mirko did. I think Mirio even has a scene where he comes to that realization and questions his own usefulness for a moment, which leads to the gag he pulls to delay Shigaraki. In other words, if Mirko couldn't hurt Shigaraki at all, I think he might've ignored her too. That's also why Mirio doesn't scale in AP like Tamaki or Nejire.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Agree

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Feel like Hawks should scale

He was able to stop All For One’s charge and land several hits on him (even ignoring him saving Tokoyami from the laser), All For One even noted that before the injury, he was too fast. If weakened Hawks can outpace All For One, and All For One notes that in his prime he was ridiculously fast, he should scale

Also have qualms with assuming AFO got faster as he got younger, considering there’s no evidence he had any quirks to amp his speed

 

[Therefir]

That wouldn't make sense given the scaling and what we see in the story.

First of all, Hawks was using a heavily nerfed version of his Quirk, to the point that All For One himself mocked him as the man who "used to be too fast", considered the current version of his Quirk to be garbage, and instead praised Hawks for still being able to fight with it.

Second, the younger All For One gets, the more potential he can draw from all his Quirks. This means that Quirks that enhace his speed also grow more powerful. This is demonstrated by the fact that AFO started destroying everyone before they could do anything about it or avoid his attacks.

Third, Hawks, even with a prime version of his Quirk and being obviously faster, was barely able to avoid an attack from Hood. Meanwhile, the Winged Near High-End, which can move fast enough to fool S&S, got tagged by the X-66 jets, the same jets that a younger All For One blitzed.

In terms of speed, Younger AFO>>X-66 jets≈Winged Near High-End≈Hood≈Hawks.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Second, the younger All For One gets, the more potential he can draw from all his Quirks. This means that Quirks that enhace his speed also grow more powerful. This is demonstrated by the fact that AFO started destroying everyone before they could do anything about it or avoid his attacks.

Why are we assuming that AFO is using speed enhancing quirks by default? He’ll mention quirks that amplify physical strength or we’ll see its effects on his body, but we never see him use any speed enhancing quirks, so in my opinion we have no reason to assume he’s using any

AFO stated that his body became “light as silk” the moment he used the Rewind Drug, which would indicate an increase on purely his physical attributes. Considering weakened Hawks could outpace early Rewind AFO various times, who effectively said he was much quicker than his 0.77c self, I feel like he deserves to downscale at least

 

[Therefir]

Why are we assuming that AFO is using speed enhancing quirks by default?

The mere act of AFO flying already requires him to use Quirks. On top of that, he can create repulsion rings to further enhance his speed. Do you really think he's moving through the air at super speeds with his base strength alone? How could he possibly do that? He's constantly using Quirks to move; we just don't know how many or exactly which ones.

Therefore, bringing out the true potential of his Quirks would naturally make him faster.

He’ll mention quirks that amplify physical strength or we’ll see its effects on his body

That's irrelevant, he doesn't verbally mention anything like "Levitation", "Air Walk", or "Repulsion Ring" every time he uses those Quirks to move around.

AFO stated that his body became “light as silk” the moment he used the Rewind Drug, which would indicate an increase on purely his physical attributes.

An increase in his physical attributes wouldn't allow him to quickly drop to the ground, he's still using some kind of flying Quirk to move faster through the air.

Sure, he is physically faster since his body is back in prime condition, but that doesn't really prove anything. AFO's Quirks only truly started to become more powerful when he grew younger and began giving himself over to the darkness.

AFO simply doesn't move around using his base strength alone like All Might does.

Considering weakened Hawks could outpace early Rewind AFO various times

I doubt it. Hawks wasn't able to stop Rewind AFO from stealing a hero's Quirk, nor was he able to carry himself and Tokoyami out of the way of AFO's attack.

Even a weakened AFO was able to block an attack from Hawks, and considered that his speed was no longer that impressive.

Regardless, feats prove that a younger AFO is able to blitz characters around Hawks' level, so he has no business scaling from this AFO's feats.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

The mere act of AFO flying already requires him to use Quirks. On top of that, he can create repulsion rings to further enhance his speed. Do you really think he's moving through the air at super speeds with his base strength alone? How could he possibly do that? He's constantly using Quirks to move; we just don't know how many or exactly which ones.

Therefore, bringing out the true potential of his Quirks would naturally make him faster.

This is just Occam’s Razor imo; AFO has never stated or mentioned a quirk that he’d use to amplify his reaction speed or anything like that. He’s had mobility related quirks for flight and stuff like that, but why is it unreasonable that AFO physically amps his speed by default? We already hold that AFO in base can clash with All Might even without any quirks, as we’ve seen in Kamino

I’d be willing to drop the downscale argument but I wanna get a few others opinions. Maybe at least two separate keys for Hawks?

 

[Metalballrun]

I can see a perspective for a Hawks upgrade, but I'm not sure how he scales to Rewind AFO given the some of Therefir's reasons above. I am willing to accept re-framing how we scale Hawks' speed to being faster than Weakened All For One.

My point mainly comes from this scene:

was barely able to avoid an attack from Hood.

Most of Hawks' feathers were already going to Endeavor to bolster his speed. So he is actually slower than normal here, although by how much exactly we cannot tell, but more than 50% of his feathers were going to Endeavor.
So at least from the way I see it, Weakened Hawks is still on Weakened All For One's speed level, and Prime Hawks is faster.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I removed the Mirio scaling since it's obvious contentious.

I've also changed the percentages to c.

We already hold that AFO in base can clash with All Might even without any quirks, as we’ve seen in Kamino

Nothing suggest AFO is never using Quirks. I don't remember accepting anything you've claimed here. AFO is always using Quirks unless stated otherwise.

His entire gimmick is that he steals and using dozens of Quirks at once. It's about being reasonable.

Every single feat of AFO is always considered to be with Quirks.

So at least from the way I see it, Weakened Hawks is still on Weakened All For One's speed level, and Prime Hawks is faster.

This is true. We have that already on the profile. He's on par with Hood, who is faster than the USJ Nomu, who is equal to Weakened All Might and Weakened AFO.

Hawks is faster than Weakened All Might and Weakened AFO.

 

[Metalballrun]

This is true. We have that already on the profile. He's on par with Hood, who is faster than the USJ Nomu, who is equal to Weakened All Might and Weakened AFO.

Yeah but they are basically rated at the same speed value, though I guess we don't really have anything else to base Hawks' top speed besides being above it to an extent.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Personally I believe Hawks should upscale/downscale to baseline FTL as it’s less than 1.3x from his 0.77c value but it’s a matter of opinion

 

[MANOFGOD7]

Agree.

Personally I believe Hawks should upscale/downscale to baseline FTL as it’s less than 1.3x from his 0.77c value but it’s a matter of opinion

More like upscale to SOL, just like how it was done a while ago when the gap was less than x1.5

 

[1000TonsofFun]

I agree with the OP, besides the aforementioned Mirio scaling. I also agree that Hawks should scale to Speed Of Light.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with the OP.

I don't agree that Hawks should be lightspeed.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Personally? I also don't agree with upscaling Hawks either. He has no feats of being massively faster. If we had a blitz, maybe, but Hawks is just an unknown amount faster. The same as the High-Ends. They're an unknown amount faster/stronger than the USJ Nomu. It's clearly not a massive degree, since Endeavor can keep up with Hood, despite being slower, and Hood is equal to Hawks. It doesn't look like enough for upscaling to me. That's all I'll say on the matter.

 

[Saqphire]

I think Prime AFO should scale to the FTL value simply because he is the reason Prime Might became weakened in the first place. Obviously, Prime Might is stronger than him but strength is a separate category from speed and AFO would genuinely not be capable of harming All Might like that in their fight unless either

A) All Might held back in speed
B) All For One scales to his speed
C) All For One off-guarded him

Scenario A is extremely out of character for All Might and scenario C requires not just evidence that it was the case, but also that "off-guarded" All Might's reactions were so much lesser than his "on-guard" self that AFO wouldn't scale off him in reaction speed anyway.

Furthermore, you didn't link the Rewind AFO statement about his quirks, but if you mean this one, then it's not necessarily about their speed, just how uncontrollable they get. In fact, that's arguably a nerf statement here.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Snip

We don't have a Prime AFO key, so his value is irrelevant.

Also, we have no idea how All Might's fight with AFO went, like at all. There are numerous ways this could happen. I'm not going to speculate on the reason, but it's far too open for a simple explanation when we're dealing with a guy who can have whatever powers he wants.

The gap between scaling above 0.77c to 1.68 isn't massive. A 2x gap is noticeable, and it's a real advantage, but Prime AFO is faster than 0.77c.

That statement is not a nerf. He literally states he's capable of drawing out more potential from his Quirks the younger he gets.

That means he's outputting more from his Quirks than usual.

 

[Saqphire]

We don't have a Prime AFO key, so his value is irrelevant.

Also, we have no idea how All Might's fight with AFO went, like at all. There are numerous ways this could happen. I'm not going to speculate on the reason, but it's far too open for a simple explanation when we're dealing with a guy who can have whatever powers he wants.

The gap between scaling above 0.77c to 1.68 isn't massive. A 2x gap is noticeable, and it's a real advantage, but Prime AFO is faster than 0.77c.

Fair point.

That statement is not a nerf. He literally states he's capable of drawing out more potential from his Quirks the younger he gets.

That means he's outputting more from his Quirks than usual.

That's not what he said dude. His latent potential being drawn out is a separate instance from his age reverting because he says "The younger I get, the more untameable they get and the more I give into this darkness, the more I can draw out the latent potential of my quirks".

Said "giving into darkness" means anything but even if that unknown factor was a quirk buff, quirks =/= physical stats, so using the statement to refute Prime AFO's physical speed is a category error. And I truly doubt he meant speed for them when his example of an increased output of latent quirk potential is literally a light beam (unless you're saying that light is faster than light, which requires more evidence than this).

Also, there is definitely reason to believe Prime AFO scales above his younger self in combat speed when not only is Endeavour literally saying his body is in prime condition, AFO himself is saying his body feels extremely light [compared to before].

His presence during his prime form was also said to be a deciding factor in the war, meaning if Prime AFO was where Shigaraki was, it was likely that Izuku would've lost to both Shigaraki and AFO at the same time (if that wasn't the case, he wouldn't be a deciding factor as Izuku and Shigaraki are the two main players of the war in strength); meaning he is relative to both.

Tokoyami and co. don't scale to Prime AFO either as he literally says that there was only one man that could stand up to him (aka All Might). This means Tokoyami and co. don't scale to Weakened All Might either, for the record.

In fact, Tokoyami is only capable of off-guarding and overpowering Prime AFO with his quirk and all that does is make him even younger (and thus no longer at a PRIME condition as Endeavour says). If anything, Tokoyami would only scale to him in speed with Light of Baldur as AFO calls him "obnoxious" for doing that to him.

Hawks, someone Damage and you both agree don't get upscaled to SOL, literally tags the same AFO that you claimed was faster because of his quirk potential being more drawn out. AFO even says that the more damage he takes, the faster the Rewind process even gets. So if he gets weakened, he gets younger.

Yet this same Hawks is afraid of even approaching Prime AFO because he thinks he'd get his quirk instantly stolen from him.

Plus, he becomes an infant at one point yet he is obviously not crawling at speeds faster than light lmao.

EDIT: To elaborate on this, All For One's statement that you're using to claim him growing younger = he grows faster has no stopping point. This means that logically, him growing younger means he'd be the fastest as a fetus or an infant but we see that AFO is not crawling at these speeds at all (and claiming such is extremely ridiculous lmfao). On top of that, arguing that "AFO lost control against Bakugo so the speed gain stopped there" was already affirmed by AFO himself.

In fact, AFO's affirmation was in the very statement you use to claim he's faster. So if a "loss of control" = no more speed gain, then the speed gain never happened as AFO started losing control of when he first got younger from his prime state.

In fact right, if his overall quirk potential is more drawn out, then his Rewind would make him de-age faster overall, and thus he would be further from his prime condition at a faster pace. We actually know this is the case because AFO becomes a fetus and f*cking dies after ONE attack in his infant form, meaning he'd have regressed a whole 9+ month growth within seconds.

But Prime AFO can throw multiple attacks at the same time and not regress at all.

Basically, the point of this massive scan yap is that believing that Prime AFO is slower than a younger AFO is ridiculous and frankly forgets the definition of the term prime in the first place. So if you already agree younger AFO is FTL based on scaling to Iron Might, Prime AFO should have an "at least" rating based from that too (and so would Yagi) with a "lower" rating with Deaging.

 

[Therefir]

Plus, he becomes an infant at one point yet he is obviously not crawling at speeds faster than light lmao.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue with this last point about baby AFO, but I'd like to clarify what happened when AFO became too young.

At some point during AFO's fight against Bakugo, he speculates that his body has become too young or too delicate to properly control his Quirk Factors, that something was off, and that Bakugo shouldn't be tearing his Quirks apart like that.

Then Hawks' vestige responds by saying that AFO simply lost control of them because his negative emotions got the best of him.

So no, this is not really an argument in favor of or against AFO getting stronger/faster the younger he became. AFO had already lost control over his Quirks at that point, either due to becoming too delicate, because his emotions got the best of him, or a combination of both.

 

[Nierre]

For Hawks instead of upscaling him to SOL, we can give him an At Least Rel+ rating.

everything else is okay with me

 

[Saqphire]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue with this last point about baby AFO, but I'd like to clarify what happened when AFO became too young.

My point is that he gets slower the younger he gets, and the baby example is an extreme one of my point. The other points support that notion and I added onto it with other arguments; especially if the crux of the argument comes from AFO saying "younger = more potential = faster", which would logically apply to his infant form (which it clearly doesnt)

At some point during AFO's fight against Bakugo, he speculates that his body has become too young or too delicate to properly control his Quirk Factors, that something was off, and that Bakugo shouldn't be tearing his Quirks apart like that.

Then Hawks' vestige responds by saying that AFO simply lost control of them because his negative emotions got the best of him.

So no, this is not really an argument in favor of or against AFO getting stronger the younger he became. AFO had already lost control over his Quirks at that point, either due to becoming too delicate, because his emotions got the best of him, or a combination of both.

Yeah, that's also what I am saying with the AFO statement that Rusty is using to try to upscale a younger AFO above Prime AFO in combat speed (or refute Prime AFO even having younger AFO's combat speed in the first place). It's not a statement for physical speed at all, it's a statement of him losing control of his quirks.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

That’s 3 votes. Is that enough to conclude.

 

[Therefir]

I disagree with giving Hawks any kind of "At least" rating.

Not only does it essentially mean nothing on its own, but he also lacks feats that would place him significantly above Weakened All Might-level characters.

Giving him an "At least" rating would also force us to apply the same treatment to many other characters with comparable speed showings.

And let's not forget that High-Ends are stated to be faster than the USJ Nomu, just being faster than a character shouldn't justify an "At least" rating.

By contrast, Deku's Faux 100% during the Dark Hero Arc has far more direct feats and scaling to justify even a Speed of Light rating, as he was able to blitz a bullet that outpaced his 45% speed, yet I don't see anyone seriously arguing for that rating.

 

[Nierre]

saqphire is still arguing so we should wait until that concludes. (also it hasn't been 48hrs anyway)

 

[Saqphire]

saqphire is still arguing so we should wait until that concludes. (also it hasn't been 48hrs anyway)

My main point is simply that Prime AFO scales above Rewind AFO but I don't want to halt any progress so if I don't conclude it then yall can ignore or decide for yallselves who's right or not

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

By contrast, Deku's Faux 100% during the Dark Hero Arc has far more direct feats and scaling to justify even a Speed of Light rating, as he was able to blitz a bullet that outpaced his 45% speed, yet I don't see anyone seriously arguing for that rating.

Wouldn’t that also scale to Dark Hero 100% Deku too

 

[Shadowslaya!]

I agree with everything in this.

 

[JoeDM021]

OP

Minor grammar correction

Character Pages: (I'm not putting all of the Relativistic+ cast in a sandbox just to change them from 62.27c to 0.77c.)

change the 62.27c to 0.62c
@TheRustyOne