Fixing Metal Gear's Timeline

Hi. Currently, the Metal Gear timeline is inaccurate and has some issues (mostly) easy to explain. Of course, this is because the timeline is just simply outdated and has yet to be fixed. In fact, only three games are needed to be removed from the timeline. Those games being Ghost Babel, Portable Ops (this one is weird), and Rising.

To start off simple, we already have an official timeline of the series provided by Konami's website in the history section.



As we can see, the listed games are:

• Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (1964)
• Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker (1974)
• Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes (1975)
• Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain (1984)
• Metal Gear (1995)
• Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake (1999)
• Metal Gear Solid (2005)
• Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty (2007-2009)
• Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots (2014)

So now we will talked about the mentioned games that are not in this timeline, but in the current outdated timeline.

Metal Gear: Ghost Babel (2002)​

This one is fairly simple. Ghost Babel takes place 7 years after the Outer Heaven Uprising, the events of the very first Metal Gear game. This would set the game to take place during 2002. To make this simple, this is supposed to be Snake's return after the original Metal Gear. However, Metal Gear 2 happens during 1999, in which he has to fight another Metal Gear. Yet this game treats it like this is the second one. He even meets characters like Mei Ling for the first time here, which is an issue, because Metal Gear Solid is established to be their first time. Obvious reason for why it isn't in the current timeline.

Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (2018)​

The funny meme game is not part of the main timeline. I want to address that yes, Rising does technically happen after all of the primary Metal Gear games. It's four years after 4, and it technically has no contradicitions. However, this game was not intended to be the canon sequel to 4. Aside from not being included in Konami's timeline (and another timeline I will mention later), Kojima himself does not consider it to be the way Metal Gear's story would continue after 4. He mentions that this is Platinum Game's interpretation of what would happen after 4, being a "parallel story", in the sense that this is like an alternate Metal Gear universe where everything is basically the same, except Rising happens after 4 instead of just ending there. This would mean that Raiden needs a profile soley for Rising.

This is a little extra piece of evidence; while this mission isn't technically canon, they do consider Raiden from Rising to be someone from "another world" in Ground Zeroes.

Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops (1970)​

This is the most debated and most complicated. Now, Portable Ops when initially released was "canon". It's referenced in MGS4 and alluded to in Peace Walker when mentions of anything that happened San Heironymo should be left behind. The latter could have a double meaning though in that they literally want us to disregard what happens in PO, which wouldn't be shocking given how meta the series can be.

Generally though, the series and creators tend to treat this game as not really part of the main timeline. When Kojima lists the games that are part of the "Metal Gear Saga", PO (nor the other games) are listed by him. This is doubled by yet again, Konami's timeline, and how the Master Collection's booklet lists all games that are part of the main timeline, but excludes PO as seperate instead. It does however mention that some events tie into the canon.


This game also has the first Metal Gear, (RAXA), which is contradicted by Peace Walker having the first Metal Gear (ZEKE) developed by Huey. If this wasn't damning enough, Phantom Pain itself gives us a timeline for the overall series. All other major events/incidents from every main game is listed during their period. However, in 1970, the San Hieronymo Incident is not listed. This also doesn't list Ghost Babel nor Rising, stopping all the way at MGS4. That is overall 4 different timeline listings that do not include this game, with all of these being said well after PO was released.

That being said, not EVERYTHING about this game is not canon. The game itself is not canon, but some key moments are. When asked by Kojima if the game was canon, he mentions that the main story is canon, but other details are not canon. However, this translation is debated to be rushed, as others tried to give a more accurate translation to his answer on the game's canon. He treats games not written/directed by him like a division, treating this more like "kind of part of the main storyline". This would explain why it's not really ever listed as a game part of the overall timeline. Bits of the game are, but clearly not all of it. This in itself might need discussing, but it's pretty clear that both Phantom Pain and Konami do not consider it a mainline game in the timeline.


Agree:
Neutral:
Disagree:

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What about this

Baken384 said:

What about this

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Rip let me put on imgur

Baken384 said:

What about this

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discord links dont show

Baken384 said:

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This lists events from games that are considered spin-offs, which are marked in blue, whereas red is part of the main series. Considering that both PO and Rising are listed as not part of the main games (instead pushed to other non-canon games), I think it's just listing games that can technically be part of the main timeline. Which wouldn't go against Phantom Pain's ending.

Just to be clear, some of the events of PO are indeed canon, but the general game is not.

DatOneWeeb said:

This lists events from games that are considered spin-offs, which are marked in blue, whereas red is part of the main series. Considering that both PO and Rising are listed as not part of the main games (instead pushed to other non-canon games), I think it's just listing games that can technically be part of the main timeline. Which wouldn't go against Phantom Pain's ending.

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It being a spin off doesn’t matter because as of right now via Master Collection , Konami considers these games part of the timeline. The Portable Ops segment mentions this too.

Robo432343 said:

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“This title is a spinoff that tie into the series directly”

I've already agreed that part of the events are canon, just not the entire game. That's why PO is a complicated game to mention.

We are not doing this.

Ops is canon. It is stated canon in interviews leading up to it.
It is readily acknowledged in MGSV, Ocelot even yaps about shit he was doing in it as one example, a directly canon game, which is ironic given some of your evidence here is "it wasn't mentioned in the credits timeline".

It is acknowledged in MG4, a canon game, stuff is even shown in it, both directly in flashbacks, both to explain tie in plot beats, and hell funnily, Big Mama straight up has a giant framed picture of the events of Port Ops on her wall as one of the major key events in Big Boss' life. And I don't just mean easter eggs, IN MGS4 itself, we get a timeline, and the timeline includes Portable Ops the game as part of the timeline.

It is acknowledged in database too, a supplementary to canon that also ignores blatantly non-canon shit like MGS Acid 1, 2, and Ghost Babel. And because I know people will try to point at this, reminder Database was written by Shuyo Murata. He had substantial involvement in actual Metal Gear games, he has credits on Metal Gear Solid 3 as a writer and Director claims, on MGS4 for Story, Scenario, In-game/Codec Scenario, plus Direction / Tuning and director-related roles, on Peace Walker for writing/radio-script-related work and assistant direction, and on MGSV as one of the credited writers. So Murata was absolutely part of the mainline creative/writing side of the series, not just the Database, and a major part of MGS as a whole after 2. Like at a certain point, MGS stopped being solely Kojima's project and become effectively a 3-way team. If I had to compare, it'd be like how Zelda started off as Shigeru Miyamoto's but eventually became both Shigeru's and Aounuma's.

Etsu Tamari, another, also had real MGS involvement, though later and less central than Murata. He’s credited on MGS4 for the Database, on Peace Walker for In-Game Voices / Briefing Files / Radio Scripts, on Ground Zeroes for manual/text and voice/tape-script-related work, and on MGSV: The Phantom Pain as one of the credited writers. And ironically, he was the scenario writer for Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance.
And another dude but eh he's mostly supplementary stuff like PW and canon tie in promotions.
And obviously the fact it's a Kojipro production which means Kojima had at least some overview.

You can't go "oh some events from Ops is canon but not the game", not how that shit works?
If the game is stated canon, and multiple events are directly confirmed canon, everything from the successor project, to raxa to even Gene and the funds or Ocelot messing with the CIA, you don't get to arbitrarily ignore shit you do not like from it. It's canon, end of. Hell what is there to even ignore at that point, every relevant detail is acknowledged.

Revengeance is also canon; you're conflating spin-off and interpretation, yet also stated by Kojima to be in a "until then" situation, basically canon till overwritten, evidently, that is no longer going to happen, so it stays canon. Hell you're also ignoring how he says it is a continuation and even wanted to pass the games down to others to continue without him. Like kind of missing the point he wanted out and wanted people to continue the story and expand it.

It being a spinoff, does not change its canonicity, both you and that blog seem to confuse those words, the blog even outright yaps about "obviously kojima is using the word spin off as a shoe-in for canon", ignoring he also uses the word canon and says he's speaking irrespective of it, so not so subtle agenda pushing there, but it just makes it not a mainline title, which yuh huh, it isn't a mainline title.

Yet it is outright stated directly in Master Book to be part of the canon timeline. Non-canon games like Acids, Babel, and even dogass survive which they could have easily shoved in there, are not.

To start off simple, we already have an official timeline of the series provided by Konami's website in the history section.

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Actually, that's just for mainline titles that have a current website listing atm. I've been using that extensively, even got renders from there. It gives a rough outline but isn't exactly comprehensive when it's only factoring shit with updated portals and main entries. If you want to factor in Konami's views, why ignore the stuff where they clarify what is and isn't actually part of the explicit canon?

This is the most debated and most complicated. Now, Portable Ops when initially released was "canon". It's referenced in MGS4 and alluded to in Peace Walker when mentions of anything that happened San Heironymo should be left behind. The latter could have a double meaning though in that they literally want us to disregard what happens in PO, which wouldn't be shocking given how meta the series can be.

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No. A direct reference is not secretly "uhm actually ignore it", it's a direct reference acknowledging it happened.
You do not get to twist that into some meta ignorance because you're fishing for a way to discredit it and the line is problematic to that notion. Like could have, or does? Because if you can't prove it without a sliver of doubt, it's literally an argument against you.
You know what else that say "to leave behind"? Peace Walker incident in 5, MGS3 in PW, MGS2 in 4, MG1&2 in Solid, same phrasing too, are they not canon? Or is it the characters just trying to move past bad shit that happened in the past? This is rhetorical, it's the latter.

Your OWN SCAN outright says it's canon too, like verbatim, "depicts events that tie into canon", yeah, like the stuff that happens in the game mayhaps?
You're acting like only one or two things are canon from it, linguistically that is not what that's saying and arguing otherwise is a straight up reach.

DatOneWeeb said:

This lists events from games that are considered spin-offs, which are marked in blue, whereas red is part of the main series. Considering that both PO and Rising are listed as not part of the main games (instead pushed to other non-canon games), I think it's just listing games that can technically be part of the main timeline. Which wouldn't go against Phantom Pain's ending.

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I can't tell if you're deliberately ignoring the major issue with your "it just so happens to mention spin offs" claim on purpose, it isn't subtle nor slick.
No dude, not how that works, that timeline is for the canon events explicitly. Marking games by tie-ins and mainline titles, does not change the fact the tie in games are also canon.
Note how they don't include survive or any of the other spin offs that COULD be canon, and don't really contradict anything?
Why do you think that is? Why list only two specific spin offs out of like 6-7, with the two being one stated directly to be canon like ten times (both when it came out, and multiple times recently and since), including in that very book, and one that is stated to have been intended to be a continuation of the story, but NOT the other just as easily mentioned games and spin offs that are ALSO mention and detailed in that book, so it isn't like they just "forgot" to add them? Like reminder there's a whole page dedicated to Acid and Survive and GB, each.
I'll tell you why, because the latter aren't part of the canon story, while the former are.

There is no "i think-", here, we're told outright what that timeline is for.
Phantom's Pain ending doesn't contradict anything either, the lack of mention is not proof of invalidation, if it was you may as well ignore whole chunks of other games due to being skimmed or not mentioned in later titles, especially when the Phantom Pain mentions it anyway elsewhere, and more recent things explicitly confirm it directly.

It's also notable as MB says "yes this IS a spin-off of sorts, but it's also depicting canon events and ties directly into the main games", it being a spin-off is explicitly stated not to matter for canonicity, so arguing it being a spinoff so not canon is flatout stated not true.

DatOneWeeb said:

This game also has the first Metal Gear, (RAXA), which is contradicted by Peace Walker having the first Metal Gear (ZEKE) developed by Huey. If this wasn't damning enough, Phantom Pain itself gives us a timeline for the overall series. All other major events/incidents from every main game is listed during their period. However, in 1970, the San Hieronymo Incident is not listed. This also doesn't list Ghost Babel nor Rising, stopping all the way at MGS4. That is overall 4 different timeline listings that do not include this game, with all of these being said well after PO was released.

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And this is straight up false, if you played the game, you'd know outright they do not consider it a true Metal Gear.

"A true Metal Gear has two defining characteristics. First, it must be able to launch a nuclear warhead from any point on the face of the Earth. Second, it must be able to do so automatically, without any human intervention. This machine lacks that second quality. In other words, Metal Gear RAXA is not a true Metal Gear."

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Do not try to bullshit here.
I do not have the time to argue outright misinformation because you didn't bother to actually play the game, or worse, outright ignored said information and at that point I'm liable to get mods involved. It's also not true by the nuclear bipedal battletank definition either, in fact they couldn't even get it working, it was specified as just a prototype for a MG, and ended in failure anyway. ZEKE is the true real Metal Gear that actually works and fits under the definitions, technically PW is too but it had caveats that prevented it from fully counting (in the same game mind you they explain this).

As for the MGSV timeline, that's cool, now check the current new timeline, and you'd see it's there?

Also, good job mentioning the lack of mention for GB, why frame a lack of mention there as some sort of "gotcha", but then ignore when MGR and Ops are both mentioned explicitly, and GB isn't, as "oh well uhm, don't count..."?

DatOneWeeb said:

That being said, not EVERYTHING about this game is not canon. The game itself is not canon, but some key moments are.

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Nice oxymoron. "NOTHING about this game is canon except for a bunch of key moments that ARE canon".

DatOneWeeb said:

When asked by Kojima if the game was canon, he mentions that the main story is canon, but other details are not canon. However, this translation is debated to be rushed, as others tried to give a more accurate translation to his answer on the game's canon. He treats games not written/directed by him like a division, treating this more like "kind of part of the main storyline". This would explain why it's not really ever listed as a game part of the overall timeline. Bits of the game are, but clearly not all of it. This in itself might need discussing, but it's pretty clear that both Phantom Pain and Konami do not consider it a mainline game in the timeline.

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Like it or not, Kojima doesn't have a say anymore in regards to MGS' canonicity, and as mentioned, in your very own interviews, even worse, you outright shot down your own argument.
He doesn't say it isn't canon, that's the blogwriter twisting and shoving their own interpretation into his mouth, in fact he says instead of treating it as canon or not canon, he simply divides it into games he's personally worked on and those handled by others at a personal level, even if they're part of the general story. As in that personal distinction has no bearing on the actual plot.
And as mentioned above, he even goes onto say he wants other studios to handle it going forward, is fine with it, is expected, and wants out in general.

All the same this CRT is an active waste of resources and time, like I'm going to be straight up blunt here, I do not have the time for this and half the evidence of the OP is either ignoring keylines to make it seem like it says something it doesn't, twists what it actually says to have a hidden meaning, or is outright sabotage and confirms it is canon directly undercutting the entire CRT to begin with.

Ops is very blatantly canon, it's referenced in every game since, has key plot elements like were Big Boss even got his money to set up his five billion operations, characters like Gene and Null are outright shown in canon material and acknowledged to have existed, it was designed very much to be canon explicitly stated numerous times, and while a spin-off, Konami's recent timeline explicitly states it is canon, twice, even using the word canon.

MGR is the exact same. Being a spin-off doesn't detract from the fact it is stated to be canon. And now that Kojima is no longer involved, Konami has elevated it into direct continuation status instead of just a "yeah it's there for now, may or may not change in the future tho, just keep that in mind ig".

You're conflating canon with games Kojima himself had complete power over, when that isn't what actually decides canon, and you're conflating him acknowledging that split personally while ignoring he also acknowledges it doesn't actually change what is or isn't a part of the general canon, to somehow invalidate them from canon, and you're also ignoring how Kojima could come out and straight up say both aren't canon and never happened and it wouldn't matter because he no longer controls the canon, Konami does, and Konami says both are explicitly canon and the games that aren't canon are Babel/Acid 1/Acid 2/Survive.

DatOneWeeb said:

I've already agreed that part of the events are canon, just not the entire game. That's why PO is a complicated game to mention.

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No it isn't, you don't get to decide that, Konami does. And they've decided you're wrong, those two in particular are canon, things like GB and Survive are not.

Like oh boy you think Ops is bad? Wait till you find out about the canonical status of the DN or Twin Snakes.

Ye spin offs are just games not a part of the mainline series (aka metal gear solid). Not that they're non-canon. And Kojima's words aren't really talking about objective canonicity like chariot mentioned.

Dude you gotta like, calm down. You're getting WAY too heated over this. Why are you even threating to get mods involved just disapprove the argument civilly.

Idk556570 said:

Dude you gotta like, calm down. You're getting WAY too heated over this. Why are you even threating to get mods involved just disapprove the argument civilly.

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Because disingenious framing and ignoring direct contradictions that shut down your own argument and pushing it anyway is very much not allowed? Why do you think that isn't ok?

And there's a difference between not beIng calm, and saying it like it is.
I do not have time to sugarcoat it, the OP is wrong on every front, ignored outright statements and mountains of proof stating otherwise, and every reply against the most straightforward confirmation known to man, is outright disingenious.

When the arguments boil down to twisting what someone who doesn't even control canon anymore actually said, ignoring the direct proof and out right confirmations otherwise, or even just ignoring stuff and arguing it anyway; that is a problem, one which mods will be noted of.
Either argue truthfully or not at all. The only excuse is that they haven't actually played the game given that's not just a niche one off line, it's a major plot point one can't miss, and if they haven't actually played the games why are they making a CRT about what is and isn't canon within it.

DatOneWeeb said:

That being said, not EVERYTHING about this game is not canon. The game itself is not canon, but some key moments are. When asked by Kojima if the game was canon, he mentions that the main story is canon, but other details are not canon. However, this translation is debated to be rushed, as others tried to give a more accurate translation to his answer on the game's canon. He treats games not written/directed by him like a division, treating this more like "kind of part of the main storyline". This would explain why it's not really ever listed as a game part of the overall timeline. Bits of the game are, but clearly not all of it. This in itself might need discussing, but it's pretty clear that both Phantom Pain and Konami do not consider it a mainline game in the timeline.

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Wait, why is Kojima being treated as the be all and end all of canonicity here? Unless this game has actual contradictions with the rest of the series, I don't see why it isn't usable, especially if other developers and writers disagree with that view.

Baken384 said:

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This alone just wraps up the thread. There's nothing to "fix", we already got the official timeline sorted by Konami themselves