Issues with a few NNT speed calcs.

Slacjow · May 25, 2026

1. Mel reflects Gil's lightning.
Why is the calculation of the anime scene and the frame it uses comes from a cut that is a fraction of a second (1:32)? Just use the manga version. In this case you see that Mel redirects several Lightning strikes, which he sees coming from a mile away, he doesn't have to be almost 8 times faster than these bolts to be able to deflect them. Heck, he only needs to have speed relative to the bolts themselves as they are coming at him 1 by 1.

The anime calc only inflates the speed unnecessarily. And considering the fact that he doesn't blitz Gil in that scene I don't think the intention was that Mel is 8x Gil's lightning strikes.
2. Mel saves Elizabeth from the Lightning strike.
The distance the lightning moved was found from a frame where you can barely see anything. Such frames shouldn't even be allowed for scaling. Literally, change one pixel in that calc, and you'll see a drastic difference in results.

It is also beyond me how the calc found such miniscule distance travelled by lightning between two frames of a manga panel using pixel scaling. Like, you see the position of the lightning in one frame in relation to the character, then the position of the lightning in relation to the character in the next scene (you can't see shit though), and using pixel scaling somehow it found out the distance which is simply unbelievable using such resolutions. And not even taking art direction into account. The calc genuinely assumes that Nakaba intended for the lightning to move 0.00539863383m between frames. Did he use the microscope to calc it?

What if the lightning moved 0.003m? Or 0.001m?

And I don't think it was intended for Meliodas to be 1151 times faster than the object he intercepted.

Diane is drowning at the speed of lightning, smh.

Goddesses Ark is also for some reason accepted as the Speed of Light. No statement that it moves at the speed of light was provided. Only that it is made up of "light particles", except it has nothing to do with real physics, they are magical. The main criteria by which they are accepted seems to be the idea that the verse is already high up there in terms of speed. Which isn't the case. Only Ludociel's Grace is accepted as the Speed of Light, but it only contradicts the thread. Because how come they equal Ludociel's speed with grace using normal Arks? Makes little sense.

M3X_2.0 · May 25, 2026

There is absolutely no ******* way this was posted minutes after my 4-B downgrade thread and with the same title. LMAO.

DavidTPPM · May 25, 2026

Slacjow said:
And not even taking art direction into account. The calc genuinely assumes that Nakaba intended for the lightning to move 0.00539863383m between frames. Did he use the microscope to calc it?

What if the lightning moved 0.003m? Or 0.001m?

And I don't think it was intended for Meliodas to be 1151 times faster than the object he intercepted.

I'm not familiar with the verse whatsoever but if there isn't narrative support that Melodias should be immensely faster than the attacker, this should just go against the punch evading rules.

Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters at extreme proximity, as this is primarily a trope used to exaggerate a narrow miss rather than a literal representation of overwhelming speed. Taking it at face value is often inconsistent with the battle in which the feat occurs, where the opponents are presented as equals, but the calculation results in them being considered several times faster. This should only be used when the character in question is greatly superior to the one who's attack he is evading and the speed of the attack is concretely stated, such as being able to surpass the speed of sound, or light, or uses a basis in the Real World such as the speed of an athlete's punch. If the two fighters are equal, you should simply scale them to the stated speed of the attack, or off of other feats they perform.

So that's something to consider

DragoZeroNova · May 25, 2026

M3X_2.0 said:
There is absolutely no ******* way this was posted minutes after my 4-B downgrade thread and with the same title. LMAO.

AlternativePrinciple · May 25, 2026

M3X_2.0 said:
There is absolutely no ******* way this was posted minutes after my 4-B downgrade thread and with the same title. LMAO.

Oscar level acting right here

M3X_2.0 · May 25, 2026

AlternativePrinciple said:
Oscar level acting right here

I'm serious, I was not in touch with Dz, and did not tell him to post at the same time.

AlternativePrinciple · May 25, 2026

M3X_2.0 said:
I'm serious, I was not in touch with Dz, and did not tell him to post at the same time.

Uh huh

Saqphire · May 25, 2026

(Semi-)Coordinated strikes ahh calc thread. Agree with everything but the Ark arguments. That needs a CRT on its own (and frankly the args are kinda bleh anyway)

AguilaR202 · May 25, 2026

The second feat needs a recalc, I think it should be much lower like at most 10x lightning just going off the fact the single panel before the supposed rescue the character is off panel while the lighting itself is is close to 50 cm off the girls body.

Still would need a more holistic analysis because if after that feat, you have dudes using lightning as a legit method to tag characters on his level you can’t scale someone to be blitzing it that many times over and it make sense in universe.

Slacjow · May 25, 2026

M3X_2.0 said:
There is absolutely no ******* way this was posted minutes after my 4-B downgrade thread and with the same title. LMAO.

Happy coincidence.

DavidTPPM said:
I'm not familiar with the verse whatsoever but if there isn't narrative support that Melodias should be immensely faster than the attacker, this should just go against the punch evading rules.

The premise of using pixel scaling on such panels to find out distances as small as 5 millimeters while observing a scene normally without any objective magnification is hilarious.

Kachon123 · May 25, 2026

I agree with the point of Goddesses Ark not being light speed

Mommyleona · May 25, 2026

Slacjow said:
Goddesses Ark is also for some reason accepted as the Speed of Light. No statement that it moves at the speed of light was provided. Only that it is made up of "light particles", except it has nothing to do with real physics, they are magical. The main criteria by which they are accepted seems to be the idea that the verse is already high up there in terms of speed. Which isn't the case. Only Ludociel's Grace is accepted as the Speed of Light, but it only contradicts the thread. Because how come they equal Ludociel's speed with grace using normal Arks? Makes little sense.

Agreed but that would need a crt

M3X_2.0 · May 25, 2026

Now I have time to evaluate this:

Slacjow said:
1. Mel reflects Gil's lightning.
Why is the calculation of the anime scene and the frame it uses comes from a cut that is a fraction of a second (1:32)? Just use the manga version. In this case you see that Mel redirects several Lightning strikes, which he sees coming from a mile away, he doesn't have to be almost 8 times faster than these bolts to be able to deflect them. Heck, he only needs to have speed relative to the bolts themselves as they are coming at him 1 by 1.

The anime calc only inflates the speed unnecessarily. And considering the fact that he doesn't blitz Gil in that scene I don't think the intention was that Mel is 8x Gil's lightning strikes.

This is correct, using the distance the lightning was before Meliodas started moving necessarily assumes he let the lightning get closer to him to then start moving. There is also the fact he saw it coming much before, so his reaction begun earlier than what the calc implies.

Slacjow said:
2. Mel saves Elizabeth from the Lightning strike.
The distance the lightning moved was found from a frame where you can barely see anything. Such frames shouldn't even be allowed for scaling. Literally, change one pixel in that calc, and you'll see a drastic difference in results.

It is also beyond me how the calc found such miniscule distance travelled by lightning between two frames of a manga panel using pixel scaling. Like, you see the position of the lightning in one frame in relation to the character, then the position of the lightning in relation to the character in the next scene (you can't see shit though), and using pixel scaling somehow it found out the distance which is simply unbelievable using such resolutions. And not even taking art direction into account. The calc genuinely assumes that Nakaba intended for the lightning to move 0.00539863383m between frames. Did he use the microscope to calc it?

What if the lightning moved 0.003m? Or 0.001m?

And I don't think it was intended for Meliodas to be 1151 times faster than the object he intercepted.

This one is a bit worse because it assumes Nakaba was actually consistent showing how much the lightning moved between panels, which I'm not sure he was.

Arkenis · May 25, 2026

Year of the downgrade Ig.

Bossbrosish · May 25, 2026

I agree with this

Majinere566 · May 25, 2026

Slacjow said:
Goddesses Ark is also for some reason accepted as the Speed of Light. No statement that it moves at the speed of light was provided. Only that it is made up of "light particles", except it has nothing to do with real physics, they are magical. The main criteria by which they are accepted seems to be the idea that the verse is already high up there in terms of speed. Which isn't the case. Only Ludociel's Grace is accepted as the Speed of Light, but it only contradicts the thread. Because how come they equal Ludociel's speed with grace using normal Arks? Makes little sense.

Only commenting on this because it was my thread

You’re right about it not being stated to move at the speed of light but if that was the case I didn’t need to go through all that explaining to get through with my point but I used to Laser/ Light beam dodging feats criteria which states.

The beam is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by reliable sources.

Which Ark is stated to be composed of Light Particles (Photons) that was basically the driving force of the thread. Now with the narrative implications which is why to my knowledge it actually hasn’t been implemented to the profiles because we came to a standstill about the usage of it.

Demon_Lord18 · May 25, 2026

M3X_2.0 said:
This is correct, using the distance the lightning was before Meliodas started moving necessarily assumes he let the lightning get closer to him to then start moving. There is also the fact he saw it coming much before, so his reaction begun earlier than what the calc implies.

Meliodas clearly waits for the lightning to get close before starting his movement; we can clearly see this in the anime.

Slacjow said:
Goddesses Ark is also for some reason accepted as the Speed of Light. No statement that it moves at the speed of light was provided. Only that it is made up of "light particles", except it has nothing to do with real physics, they are magical. The main criteria by which they are accepted seems to be the idea that the verse is already high up there in terms of speed. Which isn't the case. Only Ludociel's Grace is accepted as the Speed of Light, but it only contradicts the thread. Because how come they equal Ludociel's speed with grace using normal Arks? Makes little sense.

The Ark was never accepted as something that moves at the speed of light. What is accepted is that the light photons used to disintegrate demons travel at the speed of light.

M3X_2.0 · May 25, 2026

Demon_Lord18 said:
Meliodas clearly waits for the lightning to get close before starting his movement; we can clearly see this in the anime.

But you're also assuming he only starts reacting when the lightning gets closer, and ignoring the fact he saw it coming much before that frame.

Zezu1995 · May 25, 2026

ok this whole "no statement" has to stop.. light particles are photons which would move at SOL regardless of being magically or natural... if thats the case then going by that stupid logic , no magical lightning is MHS or no magical fire can burn or give out heat cuz theres no statement

Planck69 · May 25, 2026

Ark SoL seems to need its own thread but the rest seems fine.

Zezu1995 · May 26, 2026

Planck69 said:
Ark SoL seems to need its own thread but the rest seems fine.

it had multiple before. and tbh we should just bring up all the possible speed feats in NNT if we open one. and im talking - flash grace, haste, gowthers arrows, zeldris ON, Ark, chaos chaotic attacks ( was stated as a much greater light source than goddess) , teleportation ( ik not a speed feat but moving faster than someone spamming teleport has to be a feat. they wanked tf outta wally aka the flash from dc when he did it)

Arkenis · May 26, 2026

Zezu1995 said:
ok this whole "no statement" has to stop.. light particles are photons which would move at SOL regardless of being magically or natural... if thats the case then going by that stupid logic , no magical lightning is MHS or no magical fire can burn or give out heat cuz theres no statement

Oh if only such a thing were accepted unequivocally

Zezu1995 said:
teleportation ( ik not a speed feat but moving faster than someone spamming teleport has to be a feat. they wanked tf outta wally aka the flash from dc when he did it)

Should depend on range and reactions I assume?

Makai641001 · May 26, 2026

Planck69 said:
Ark SoL seems to need its own thread but the rest seems fine.

It had and was accepted lol

The rest of the calcs are fine idek what the problem is ngl.

Also Astral form Ludociel is faster than vessel Ludociel with flash lightspeed isn’t really something that caps the verse

Arkenis · May 26, 2026

Its just one LS example. Is anyone working on the lightning ones?

AguilaR202 · May 26, 2026

The second lightning feat is massively inflated, the second panel perspective does not allow someone to actually say it only moved that little before it was intercepted, more damning is the fact the lightning itself after ( presumably being deflected) is shown to be at a much greater distance from the point of contact compared to the characters, so the overall notion of of a 1000x blitz is completely unfounded.

Nerd1435 · May 26, 2026

The second one, it still has the exact same issue as what I once pointed out in a previous version of this calc, due to which it was nuked

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:USklaverei/Meliodas_blitz_Lightning_(My_version)?commentId=4400000000001057579

Slacjow · May 26, 2026

Yes, Ark def need its own thread. I don't think "particles of light statement" is reliable source for the speed of light, in the same sentence it says that the ability is magical in nature. The speed of light is just assumed. But I think the verse having high enough speed at that time also gave it leniency for Ark being SOL.
Anyway, it needs its own discussion.

Makai641001 · May 26, 2026

Slacjow said:
Yes, Ark def need its own thread. I don't think "particles of light statement" is reliable source for the speed of light, in the same sentence it says that the ability is magical in nature. The speed of light is just assumed. But I think the verse having high enough speed at that time also gave it leniency for Ark being SOL.
Anyway, it needs its own discussion.

Read the raw… It was discussed and accepted already

GTsek · May 26, 2026

Makai641001 said:
Read the raw… It was discussed and accepted already

Having it accepted doesn't mean much, it's always possible to create a thread to nerf things that were previously accepted.

Makai641001 · May 26, 2026

GTsek said:
Having it accepted doesn't mean much, it's always possible to create a thread to nerf things that were previously accepted.

You Will discuss something the raw states using the english version ?

That’s particular.

(And that’s dodging the panel that states magic is formed of natural elements too)

As I said in the AP thread I don’t have time to entertain these threads it’s either you prove the CGM’s that evaluated the calc are wrong and we apply this until EOS 4kota then re open a thread to upgrade everything or else you basically ask for this to be closed

Makai641001 · May 26, 2026

Slacjow said:
1. Mel reflects Gil's lightning.
Why is the calculation of the anime scene and the frame it uses comes from a cut that is a fraction of a second (1:32)? Just use the manga version. In this case you see that Mel redirects several Lightning strikes, which he sees coming from a mile away, he doesn't have to be almost 8 times faster than these bolts to be able to deflect them. Heck, he only needs to have speed relative to the bolts themselves as they are coming at him 1 by 1.

The anime calc only inflates the speed unnecessarily. And considering the fact that he doesn't blitz Gil in that scene I don't think the intention was that Mel is 8x Gil's lightning strikes.

The fact that he saw them coming does not invalidate the fact that he moved a certain distance in a certain timeframe.

Slacjow said:
2. Mel saves Elizabeth from the Lightning strike.
The distance the lightning moved was found from a frame where you can barely see anything. Such frames shouldn't even be allowed for scaling. Literally, change one pixel in that calc, and you'll see a drastic difference in results.

2 different panels shows the distance between Eli and the Lightning the most we could do is say the distance travelled was = to what would be needed to touch Elisabeth to have a lowball

Slacjow said:
It is also beyond me how the calc found such miniscule distance travelled by lightning between two frames of a manga panel using pixel scaling. Like, you see the position of the lightning in one frame in relation to the character, then the position of the lightning in relation to the character in the next scene (you can't see shit though), and using pixel scaling somehow it found out the distance which is simply unbelievable using such resolutions. And not even taking art direction into account. The calc genuinely assumes that Nakaba intended for the lightning to move 0.00539863383m between frames. Did he use the microscope to calc it?

What if the lightning moved 0.003m? Or 0.001m?

And I don't think it was intended for Meliodas to be 1151 times faster than the object he intercepted.

He is Massively Faster and more powerful than beings far above Ludociel

Slacjow said:
Diane is drowning at the speed of lightning, smh.

Style over substance fallacy

Slacjow said:
Goddesses Ark is also for some reason accepted as the Speed of Light. No statement that it moves at the speed of light was provided. Only that it is made up of "light particles", except it has nothing to do with real physics, they are magical. The main criteria by which they are accepted seems to be the idea that the verse is already high up there in terms of speed. Which isn't the case. Only Ludociel's Grace is accepted as the Speed of Light, but it only contradicts the thread. Because how come they equal Ludociel's speed with grace using normal Arks? Makes little sense.

Using eng against raw is mid, the whole series give context about the nature of such light + it was accepted that only Ark that goes in a straight line would be LS

Once again i won’t entertain this for long good luck with this count me as an agreement to the thread

GTsek · May 26, 2026

Makai641001 said:
You Will discuss something the raw states using the english version ?

That’s particular.

(And that’s dodging the panel that states magic is formed of natural elements too)

As I said in the AP thread I don’t have time to entertain these threads it’s either you prove the CGM’s that evaluated the calc are wrong and we apply this until EOS 4kota then re open a thread to upgrade everything or else you basically ask for this to be closed

That's not how things work bro. What I'm saying is that it's always possible to create a thread to remove ANYTHING that was previously accepted. Simply saying "It's already been accepted" as an argument is invalid.

Makai641001 · May 26, 2026

GTsek said:
That's not how things work bro. What I'm saying is that it's always possible to create a thread to remove ANYTHING that was previously accepted. Simply saying "It's already been accepted" as an argument is invalid.

And i answered saying that you used the english translation to justify your point which is invalid.

It was accepted cuz the raw states something + the author gave context about the nature of magic and not all arks are LS

GL on this sorry I have no more time to answer your questions

Zezu1995 · May 26, 2026

Slacjow said:
Yes, Ark def need its own thread. I don't think "particles of light statement" is reliable source for the speed of light, in the same sentence it says that the ability is magical in nature. The speed of light is just assumed. But I think the verse having high enough speed at that time also gave it leniency for Ark being SOL.
Anyway, it needs its own discussion.

once again why does it matter if its magic??? does that mean magical fire,water, wind etc dont act like they do naturally? you gotta do it for all elements if your gonna do it for light. and it also says light particles right above that red line. but lets ignore that part.

Nierre · May 26, 2026

Slacjow said:
Yes, Ark def need its own thread. I don't think "particles of light statement" is reliable source for the speed of light, in the same sentence it says that the ability is magical in nature. The speed of light is just assumed. But I think the verse having high enough speed at that time also gave it leniency for Ark being SOL.
Anyway, it needs its own discussion.

Just from this excerpt, it reads as the magic in question is dissolving targets utilizing light particles. As in, the light particles isn't magic itself, but the manipulation of them is. So it definitely seems to be light. Whether it's light speed, IDK

Zezu1995 · May 26, 2026

Nierre said:
Just from this excerpt, it reads as the magic in question is dissolving targets utilizing light particles. As in, the light particles isn't magic itself, but the manipulation of them is. So it definitely seems to be light. Whether it's light speed, IDK

it would auto be SOL due to being photons. They can make a case for when they bend the ark that the speed drops, which is fine. i still think we need to wait till this series is fully over to do a big wide revision

Demon_Lord18 · May 28, 2026

M3X_2.0 said:
But you're also assuming he only starts reacting when the lightning gets closer, and ignoring the fact he saw it coming much before that frame.

This really doesn’t matter; he was standing still the whole time, waiting for the lightning to approach before starting to move his arm at a 90-degree angle. Seeing the attack coming doesn’t change the fact that, from the moment he began to move, he covered several meters while the lightning moved much less.

Slacjow said:
Why is the calculation of the anime scene and the frame it uses comes from a cut that is a fraction of a second (1:32)? Just use the manga version. In this case you see that Mel redirects several Lightning strikes, which he sees coming from a mile away, he doesn't have to be almost 8 times faster than these bolts to be able to deflect them.

The feat is the same as in the manga, and in it, it’s not possible to know the distance at which the lightning was when Meliodas started to move. This is part of the premise of the calculation. Did you read the explanation or just look at the numbers?

Slacjow said:
Heck, he only needs to have speed relative to the bolts themselves as they are coming at him 1 by 1.

You can’t do this using equal speeds, since the lightning moves much less than they do when both are in motion.

Slacjow said:
The distance the lightning moved was found from a frame where you can barely see anything.

The feat is clearly visible. I recommend you see an ophthalmologist

Slacjow said:
Such frames shouldn't even be allowed for scaling. Literally, change one pixel in that calc, and you'll see a drastic difference in results.

This doesn’t invalidate anything. To be honest, you can recalculate using your own pixel scaling if you think mine is wrong.

Slacjow said:
It is also beyond me how the calc found such miniscule distance travelled by lightning between two frames of a manga panel using pixel scaling. Like, you see the position of the lightning in one frame in relation to the character, then the position of the lightning in relation to the character in the next scene (you can't see shit though), and using pixel scaling somehow it found out the distance which is simply unbelievable using such resolutions.

The lightning is at a distance x in one scene, and the sword intercepts it at a distance y in another. That’s how I determined the distance the lightning traveled — it’s basically the fundamentals. You keep insisting on the 'low quality' of the image when, in reality, it’s perfectly possible to see what’s happening.

Slacjow said:
Nakaba intended for the lightning to move 0.00539863383m between frames. Did he use the microscope to calc it?

This is how things work. Otherwise, no calculation would be valid until the author publicly stated that he had calculated beforehand, that the hole created by a certain character was meant to have x square meters and, using the fragmentation value from VS Battles, his power would be x joules. Your questioning is simply outrageous.

Slacjow said:
What if the lightning moved 0.003m? Or 0.001m?

What if the lightning had stayed frozen in the air until Meliodas intercepted it? Or if it had moved only 0.00000001 millimeters? That’s actually kind of funny. Just stop talking nonsense, man.

Slacjow said:
And I don't think it was intended for Meliodas to be 1151 times faster than the object he intercepted.

This Meliodas is already much faster than lightning and, once again, if that wasn’t Nakaba’s intention, he would have let the lightning get closer to Elizabeth to at least create suspense — something that would add more emotion to the story — instead of having Meliodas intercept it while it was still far from her.

Demon_Lord18 · May 28, 2026

Planck69 said:
Ark SoL seems to need its own thread but the rest seems fine.

I think supporters should start writing Issues with NNT (write anything) in the thread titles. It seems that way the staff pays attention without even needing to be called, even in threads where their vote doesn’t even count.

M3X_2.0 · May 28, 2026

Demon_Lord18 said:
This really doesn’t matter; he was standing still the whole time, waiting for the lightning to approach before starting to move his arm at a 90-degree angle. Seeing the attack coming doesn’t change the fact that, from the moment he began to move, he covered several meters while the lightning moved much less.

It matters. But there are more issues with your calc. You're kinda doing a lot of different things there.

First, you compare two frames where the lightning moves and gets ~25cm out of it. Fine. But then you calc Meliodas' movement beyond of what the same scan you used had him doing.

In the same frame where the lightning moved ~25cm, Meliodas also moved his arm and we can see that in the scan you used where you mixed both frames. When the lightning moved 25cm, Meliodas moved less than 90 degree, we can see his arm is not fully straight.

You're acting that's the whole movement the attack made while Meliodas had to move 90 degrees, that's not the case.

60° = π/3 = 1.0472 rad

Arc = 1.17785 × 1.0472 = 1.2333 m

Speed = 1.2333 / 0.0000005647 = 2184877 m/s or Mach 6370

This feat is faster than lightning because his movement is greater than the movement the lightning had, but you used the wrong logic. While lightning moved 25cm, Meliodas also moved his arm:

You should've calced Meliodas movement here to match with the movement you used from the lightning in this same scene.

Slacjow · May 28, 2026

I don't think the anime version should even be used in the first place. It would just unnecessarily inflate his speed just from the fact that it is an inconsistent animation. You can have characters dodge lightning in 2 frames or 10 frames.

Here's the whole sequence from the manga. Three lightning beasts were used against him, he reacted to each one after another, and each had enough distance for him to not even have higher than lightning speed to react and deflect.

Issues with a few NNT speed calcs.

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