1-A Imaginary & Metaphysics

[Weaver261]

Today, I am gonna cook a special meal for Honkai haters. So, let me cook. I have already got good ingredients in my hand.

This thread is about upgrading Entire Honkai Cosmology to 1-A back. 1-A will scale to Aeons, Godheads, Outer Gods and those who scale to the imaginary tree. This thread will approach Outerversal scaling from another perspective.

In Guns Girl Z, there exists a place called Wonderland. Wonderland is stated as a reverse space of human world.
I don't know chinese but I will try my best to explain this. Sry if this interpretation was totally wrong.
The wording here is 反轉空間. It has the word 反轉 for reverse and 空間 for space. The word 反 means reverse or opposite or anti. Basically, in contrary to something else.
If you normally translate 反轉空間 as reverse space, you would think it's existing upside down from the human world. But 反轉空間 can also mean anti-space here because it's contrary to human world aka normal space.
Imaginary Number Space or Imaginary space is also called Anti-space.
It's said here that "Phenomena impossible in reality might be common place on that side".
Wonderland is also stated as "Here, all unknown and unimaginable things can be realized".
Wonderland is composed of Honkai energy. Honkai energy is a type of imaginary energy and it's called imaginary internal energy. And it comes from imaginary space.

But you might say "This is not enough proof to say wonderland is imaginary space "

Have you ever heard of beings called "Aeons"? Regardless of your knowledge, let's learn about them here.
Aeons are embodiments of philosophical concepts. Each Aeon represent a certain path. These paths govern the imaginary tree. These paths influence the universe such as birth rates increasing so much as the path of propagation rise. Although Aeons are stated to be the embodiments of the paths, they are not lower than the paths. The ascension of an Aeon can give rise the new path. They are equal existence.

Godheads in wonderland and babylon also have the same properties as Aeons. Human cognitions, consciousness, fairy tales, all concepts can be reproduced and integrated in another way in this new world. Most of the godheads are made up of faith. Their faith level is directly correspond to their power level. You can gather faith by live streaming, writing novels and publishing it...etc. You can even change your godhead identity and concept by tempering with faith. Or also use these faith to produce another godhead.

Now, we can say Wonderland is part of imaginary space. Why am I going such length to explain all of this? Because we are going to talk about a certain cute little godhead in Babylon.

Her name is Star Dream. Although she has no feat, she has a clear indication of R>F. Star Dream dreams a universe everytime she sleep. It's not just random dreams but rather continuous dream that feels real. In the dream, a rabbit guides her to different civilizations in the universe. That rabbit comes from the most powerful civilization. They played the universe like a toy, for example connecting galaxies and nebulas for fun. But things went south due to that and universe is starting to collapse. So, they projected the universe into beyond distant dimensions. Now that universe resides in her dream and she maintain the universe by sleeping. This should qualify for 1-A easily.

Star Dream lives in Babylon which is part of Imaginary Space. So, we can conclude that Imaginary Space is also 1-A. Following that, Aeons will also have 1-A by extension. Are we done yet? Hell nah, we will be exploring metaphysics to support 1-A for imaginary space.

Black Swan once said :

Mortals are bound to the perception of the tangible, failing to comprehend that it is the spirit and the spiritual that form the true essence of the cosmos. Through the grace of "Fuli," we may shed our perishable forms and attain closeness to the true essence of being.

According to this, spirit is the true essence of the cosmo and the beings. Imaginary is also stated as "metaphysical aggregation of the spirit". So, we can say Imaginary is the true essence of the cosmo. It's also stated here as the origin of the universe and the place where all essences and roots are formed.

Now that we know spirit is the true essence of cosmo, let's talk about Stigmata space. A stigmata space is stated to be the composition of souls of a single person through many iterations. In case you didn't know, soul are also spiritual. It's also called the world of ideas. And it's also Imaginary space.

Gray Serpent: The world of ideas…
Gray Serpent: …Stigmata Space.

Imaginary is also abstract since it's an idea rather than material. And these ideas shape reality.

So, imaginary is the idea, the true essence of the universe. In project stigmata, humans see Spiritual Adam as a product of their dreams but to the Spiritual Adam, it's the opposite meaning humans are unreal to spiritual adam. The Spiritual Adam is the ladder leading to the divine realm. This is platonic ladder of abstraction. Project stigma is basically turning humanity into Spiritual Adam that is on the same level of existence as Cocoon of Finality which is an imaginary entity.

Gray Serpent: Humans see Adam Ruhani as the product of their dreams, and the opposite applies to Adam Ruhani. Its words are like our sleep talking. It has no present and past: everything happens in the future.
Gray Serpent: It can’t die, think humanly, nor reproduce… It simply exists forever as the ladder leading to the divine realm.

Within Hoyoverse, we know that Ontology (State of being) exists. If it does, then when mentioning "higher planes" or "transcendence," the context given would go along with the narrative unless stated otherwise. The IM-Space, in its root, is some type of ontological abstraction in which its state lies beyond the normal conceptions of space and time, which said space and time make up physical vectors.
These are clearly evidences of ontological superiority. Overall, Imaginary space checks all mark to pass 1-A standards. But there's things that are imaginary but don't qualify for 1-A existence. They are man-made Imaginary spaces superposed onto the real world.
Side note - In case you are confused about Imaginary tree and imaginary space, I will explain that in a simple way. Imaginary tree is a theoretical model and not literally a tree. It is used when describing about the Universe. The Universe is filled with infinite space times which are real spaces. And everything outside that is Imaginary space which is infinite. So, Universe (IMG Tree) = Real Space + IMG space.

Conclusion :
Imaginary space is the true essence and the origin of the universe. It exists beyond reality and transcends reality. It carries no dimensional information and doesn't exist in any dimension you can get in touch directly.It's the world of ideas where conceptual beings reside. Star Dream and Spritual Adam are capable of dreaming the actual universes.
The Scaling :
Babylon Godheads and Outer Gods - 1-A physically
Aeons - 1-A physically
Cocoon of Finality Kevin and Kiana - High 1-C physically with 1-A by Authority
False God Otto - High 1-C physically with 1-A by Authority

Possible Counter Arguments and the answers to shut them up

1. Star Dream's description stated "Is that bizarre dream a reflection of chaotic thinking, or a real existence?" meaning the dreaming is just a normal type of dream rather than R>F.
Ans - This is the biography description which can be seen first when you obtain the awaken. The rest of the kizuna are locked at first but later unlock with currency. The last kizuna part stated "If there is nothing important, please don't wake her up. Because she is maintaining the operation of an entire universe." indicate that she is indeed maintaining the entire universe by dreaming.

2. Aeons are stated as "higher dimensional beings". So, they are not ontologically superior to material world.
Ans - The word "Dimensional" doesn't mean much by itself. You are right if they are stated as "higher spatial dimensional beings" but in this case, it's just "higher dimensional" which can mean a lot of different thing rather than 1D+.

3. Kalpas and Elysia destroyed the Elysian Realm which is stated to be an Imaginary Space. How is that possible when Imaginary space is 1-A?
Ans - That is the wrong translation from EN localization team. Original Chinese text said "virtual space" or "cyber space" which is totally what Elysian Realm is.

4. GGZ and HI3 are not in the same cosmology. GGZ is not part of imaginary tree. So, Star Dream R>F is invalid.
Ans - I have already explained this in great detail in Yog Sothoth thread. Go check that out if you haven't. (Checkout the spoiler section)

Agree -
Neutral - @Everything12
Disagree - @Antvasima @Ultima_Reality

 

[henryzx900ruly]

Today, I am gonna cook a special meal for Honkai haters. So, let me cook. I have already got good ingredients in my hand.

This thread is about upgrading Entire Honkai Cosmology to 1-A back. 1-A will scale to Aeons, Godheads, Outer Gods and those who scale to the imaginary tree. This thread will approach Outerversal scaling from another perspective.

In Guns Girl Z, there exists a place called Wonderland. Wonderland is stated as a reverse space of human world.
I don't know chinese but I will try my best to explain this. Sry if this interpretation was totally wrong.
The wording here is 反轉空間. It has the word 反轉 for reverse and 空間 for space. The word 反 means reverse or opposite or anti. Basically, in contrary to something else.
If you normally translate 反轉空間 as reverse space, you would think it's existing upside down from the human world. But 反轉空間 can also mean anti-space here because it's contrary to human world aka normal space.
Imaginary Number Space or Imaginary space is also called Anti-space.
It's said here that "Phenomena impossible in reality might be common place on that side".
Wonderland is also stated as "Here, all unknown and unimaginable things can be realized".
Wonderland is composed of Honkai energy. Honkai energy is a type of imaginary energy and it's called imaginary internal energy. And it comes from imaginary space.

But you might say "This is not enough proof to say wonderland is imaginary space "

Have you ever heard of beings called "Aeons"? Regardless of your knowledge, let's learn about them here.
Aeons are embodiments of philosophical concepts. Each Aeon represent a certain path. These paths govern the imaginary tree. These paths influence the universe such as birth rates increasing so much as the path of propagation rise. Although Aeons are stated to be the embodiments of the paths, they are not lower than the paths. The ascension of an Aeon can give rise the new path. They are equal existence.

Godheads in wonderland and babylon also have the same properties as Aeons. Human cognitions, consciousness, fairy tales, all concepts can be reproduced and integrated in another way in this new world. Most of the godheads are made up of faith. Their faith level is directly correspond to their power level. You can gather faith by live streaming, writing novels and publishing it...etc. You can even change your godhead identity and concept by tempering with faith. Or also use these faith to produce another godhead.

Now, we can say Wonderland is part of imaginary space. Why am I going such length to explain all of this? Because we are going to talk about a certain cute little godhead in Babylon.

Her name is Star Dream. Although she has no feat, she has a clear indication of R>F. Star Dream dreams a universe everytime she sleep. It's not just random dreams but rather continuous dream that feels real. In the dream, a rabbit guides her to different civilizations in the universe. That rabbit comes from the most powerful civilization. They played the universe like a toy, for example connecting galaxies and nebulas for fun. But things went south due to that and universe is starting to collapse. So, they projected the universe into beyond distant dimensions. Now that universe resides in her dream and she maintain the universe by sleeping. This should qualify for 1-A easily.

Star Dream lives in Babylon which is part of Imaginary Space. So, we can conclude that Imaginary Space is also 1-A. Following that, Aeons will also have 1-A by extension. Are we done yet? Hell nah, we will be exploring metaphysics to support 1-A for imaginary space.

Black Swan once said :

According to this, spirit is the true essence of the cosmo and the beings. Imaginary is also stated as "metaphysical aggregation of the spirit". So, we can say Imaginary is the true essence of the cosmo. It's also stated here as the origin of the universe and the place where all essences and roots are formed.

Now that we know spirit is the true essence of cosmo, let's talk about Stigmata space. A stigmata space is stated to be the composition of souls of a single person through many iterations. In case you didn't know, soul are also spiritual. It's also called the world of ideas. And it's also Imaginary space.

Imaginary is also abstract since it's an idea rather than material. And these ideas shape reality.

So, imaginary is the idea, the true essence of the universe. In project stigmata, humans see Spiritual Adam as a product of their dreams but to the Spiritual Adam, it's the opposite meaning humans are unreal to spiritual adam. The Spiritual Adam is the ladder leading to the divine realm. This is platonic ladder of abstraction. Project stigma is basically turning humanity into Spiritual Adam that is on the same level of existence as Cocoon of Finality which is an imaginary entity.

These are clearly evidences of ontological superiority. Overall, Imaginary space checks all mark to pass 1-A standards. But there's things that are imaginary but don't qualify for 1-A existence. They are man-made Imaginary spaces superposed onto the real world.

Conclusion :
Imaginary space is the true essence and the origin of the universe. It exists beyond reality and transcends reality. It carries no dimensional information and doesn't exist in any dimension you can get in touch directly. It's the world of ideas where conceptual beings reside. Star Dream and Spritual Adam are capable of dreaming the actual universes.
The Scaling :
Babylon Godheads and Outer Gods - 1-A physically
Aeons - 1-A physically
Cocoon of Finality Kevin and Kiana - High 1-C physically with 1-A by Authority
False God Otto - High 1-C physically with 1-A by Authority

Possible Counter Arguments and the answers to shut them up





Agree -
Neutral -
Disagree -

Revising soon.

 

[Gonzalo]

I agree with everything

 

[Breakdown]

Agree, especially as Imaginary Space treats reality like a bunch of games in a server, which is textbook reality>fiction transcendence. To quote the page:

“In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams).”

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Sounds good to me

 

[henryzx900ruly]

Today, I am gonna cook a special meal for Honkai haters. So, let me cook. I have already got good ingredients in my hand.

This thread is about upgrading Entire Honkai Cosmology to 1-A back. 1-A will scale to Aeons, Godheads, Outer Gods and those who scale to the imaginary tree. This thread will approach Outerversal scaling from another perspective.

In Guns Girl Z, there exists a place called Wonderland. Wonderland is stated as a reverse space of human world.
I don't know chinese but I will try my best to explain this. Sry if this interpretation was totally wrong.
The wording here is 反轉空間. It has the word 反轉 for reverse and 空間 for space. The word 反 means reverse or opposite or anti. Basically, in contrary to something else.
If you normally translate 反轉空間 as reverse space, you would think it's existing upside down from the human world. But 反轉空間 can also mean anti-space here because it's contrary to human world aka normal space.
Imaginary Number Space or Imaginary space is also called Anti-space.
It's said here that "Phenomena impossible in reality might be common place on that side".
Wonderland is also stated as "Here, all unknown and unimaginable things can be realized".
Wonderland is composed of Honkai energy. Honkai energy is a type of imaginary energy and it's called imaginary internal energy. And it comes from imaginary space.

But you might say "This is not enough proof to say wonderland is imaginary space "

Have you ever heard of beings called "Aeons"? Regardless of your knowledge, let's learn about them here.
Aeons are embodiments of philosophical concepts. Each Aeon represent a certain path. These paths govern the imaginary tree. These paths influence the universe such as birth rates increasing so much as the path of propagation rise. Although Aeons are stated to be the embodiments of the paths, they are not lower than the paths. The ascension of an Aeon can give rise the new path. They are equal existence.

Godheads in wonderland and babylon also have the same properties as Aeons. Human cognitions, consciousness, fairy tales, all concepts can be reproduced and integrated in another way in this new world. Most of the godheads are made up of faith. Their faith level is directly correspond to their power level. You can gather faith by live streaming, writing novels and publishing it...etc. You can even change your godhead identity and concept by tempering with faith. Or also use these faith to produce another godhead.

Now, we can say Wonderland is part of imaginary space. Why am I going such length to explain all of this? Because we are going to talk about a certain cute little godhead in Babylon.

Her name is Star Dream. Although she has no feat, she has a clear indication of R>F. Star Dream dreams a universe everytime she sleep. It's not just random dreams but rather continuous dream that feels real. In the dream, a rabbit guides her to different civilizations in the universe. That rabbit comes from the most powerful civilization. They played the universe like a toy, for example connecting galaxies and nebulas for fun. But things went south due to that and universe is starting to collapse. So, they projected the universe into beyond distant dimensions. Now that universe resides in her dream and she maintain the universe by sleeping. This should qualify for 1-A easily.

Star Dream lives in Babylon which is part of Imaginary Space. So, we can conclude that Imaginary Space is also 1-A. Following that, Aeons will also have 1-A by extension. Are we done yet? Hell nah, we will be exploring metaphysics to support 1-A for imaginary space.

Black Swan once said :

According to this, spirit is the true essence of the cosmo and the beings. Imaginary is also stated as "metaphysical aggregation of the spirit". So, we can say Imaginary is the true essence of the cosmo. It's also stated here as the origin of the universe and the place where all essences and roots are formed.

Now that we know spirit is the true essence of cosmo, let's talk about Stigmata space. A stigmata space is stated to be the composition of souls of a single person through many iterations. In case you didn't know, soul are also spiritual. It's also called the world of ideas. And it's also Imaginary space.

Imaginary is also abstract since it's an idea rather than material. And these ideas shape reality.

So, imaginary is the idea, the true essence of the universe. In project stigmata, humans see Spiritual Adam as a product of their dreams but to the Spiritual Adam, it's the opposite meaning humans are unreal to spiritual adam. The Spiritual Adam is the ladder leading to the divine realm. This is platonic ladder of abstraction. Project stigma is basically turning humanity into Spiritual Adam that is on the same level of existence as Cocoon of Finality which is an imaginary entity.

These are clearly evidences of ontological superiority. Overall, Imaginary space checks all mark to pass 1-A standards. But there's things that are imaginary but don't qualify for 1-A existence. They are man-made Imaginary spaces superposed onto the real world.

Conclusion :
Imaginary space is the true essence and the origin of the universe. It exists beyond reality and transcends reality. It carries no dimensional information and doesn't exist in any dimension you can get in touch directly. It's the world of ideas where conceptual beings reside. Star Dream and Spritual Adam are capable of dreaming the actual universes.
The Scaling :
Babylon Godheads and Outer Gods - 1-A physically
Aeons - 1-A physically
Cocoon of Finality Kevin and Kiana - High 1-C physically with 1-A by Authority
False God Otto - High 1-C physically with 1-A by Authority

Possible Counter Arguments and the answers to shut them up





Agree -
Neutral -
Disagree -

Add this to this thread. (find the scans for me tho)

Within Hoyoverse, we know that Ontology (State of being) exists. If it does, then when mentioning "higher planes" or "transcendence," the context given would go along with the narrative unless stated otherwise. The IM-Space, in its root, is some type of ontological abstraction in which its state lies beyond the normal conceptions of space and time, which said space and time make up physical vectors.

 

[Everything12]

Put me down for disagree, this does not read like solid evidence a qualitative difference because of the existence of the universe pre-dream state and how it ended up in her dreams.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

Put me down for disagree, this does not read like solid evidence a qualitative difference because of the existence of the universe pre-dream state and how it ended up in her dreams.

Why so? Can you explain further and we can discuss this

 

[Weaver261]

Put me down for disagree, this does not read like solid evidence a qualitative difference because of the existence of the universe pre-dream state and how it ended up in her dreams.

Sure but even without considering Star Dream's feat, other scans are still supporting 1-A solid. Also, just because that feat is kinda questionable, disagreeing with the whole crt seems like rushed judgement. I would like to know your evaluation on other parts too.

 

[Everything12]

Well I guess the simplest way I might be able to explain it, is that she isn't perceiving it as if it's a dream compared to to herself, it is a dream. With the fact that it's in her dreams being because of outside actors and not her own power being further evidence against it.

That the universe existed in a non-dream state beforehand makes it highly possible that it was reduced to a lower qualitative state to enter her dreams, though I think it's more likely a form of abstract existence because it's an actual dream and not a form of comparison.

If I'm not wrong the Spiritual Adam and Project stigma are already know elements that are not accepted as 1-A by the wiki, with this thread not bringing anything that changes the initial assumption. With the rest of the evidence not providing a strong reasoning or support for qualitative superiority.

 

[Weaver261]

Well I guess the simplest way I might be able to explain it, is that she isn't perceiving it as if it's a dream compared to to herself, it is a dream. With the fact that it's in her dreams being because of outside actors and not her own power being further evidence against it.

That's a way to view it for sure. But considering imaginary space's properties, the rabbit in her dream clearly stated about dimensions in the universe curling up and collapsing. This mean the Universe rabbit lives originally is a material universe which unlike imaginary idea space Star Dream resides. So, it's more likely that rabbit's universe is already inferior to imaginary space.

If I'm not wrong the Spiritual Adam and Project stigma are already know elements that are not accepted as 1-A by the wiki, with this thread not bringing anything that changes the initial assumption. With the rest of the evidence not providing a strong reasoning or support for qualitative superiority.

Nope. That's totally wrong. Project stigma and Spiritual Adam are used for infinite R>F recently. Not with the approach of metaphysics. This approach is different and more accurate than infinite R>F stuffs. If you got any problems with the contexts I am providing, I would love to explain more. I suggest you to view it with fresh vision.

 

[Everything12]

While I still Disagree to Star Dream part of the CRT, on reconsideration I'm more unsure on the strength of platonic-like aspect while it does make some sense, so I'd say I'm instead Neutral there and am open to further reconsideration based off what other staff say.

 

[Voidnether]

The scaling is fine, that's all I have to say considering that Telomera (The one who downgraded Honkai to High 1-C) probably doesn't really care when it comes to other series like GGZ nor HSR (Mainly focusing on HI3 and the fact that physically: Well, they're still High 1-C, so it's probably consistent) — Arguments and justifications are also fine, it was previously discussed in the GGZ thread about Yog that Outer Gods either way should be 1-A due to R>F Transcendence if I may recall back then (It's not accepted though, just to give some clarifications) which applies to Aeons due to their similar nature, other than that everyone is just High 1-C.

 

[Hasty12345]

I disagree for Everything’s reasons.

 

[Telomera]

snip

Three questions/issues:

How do we know that Star Dream views the actual baseline reality of Honkai Impact as a dream rather than some other random reality? For all we know, this could just be a downwards hierarchy like Project Stigma. R>F doesn't scale anywhere unless there's an R>F layer ABOVE baseline reality. Even if it WAS R>F (which is already contentious), as Everything12 brought up, the universe she dreamed up could have been just as real as her world in the past but became fictional when it collapsed.


How do we know it's actually R>F? These dreams could be a form of astral projection or something of that sort into another world just as real as hers rather than R>F. Some support for this idea is that we know that Rabbit continued existing even though she used to wake up from her dreams and that Rabbit talked about civilizations that she was yet to dream of as if they already existed, so there is an extent to which these dreamed universes are independent of her. This is contrary to an actual R>F dream scenario where a "dream world" exists solely because of the dreamer.
Even further support for lack of R>F is the fact that R>F comparisons are never made. These dreams are never stated to be "less real" than her own "more real" existence, or that whatever happens in these dreams cannot affect her or anything of that sort. In fact, the only comparison that has anything to do with this type of comparison states the opposite: the worlds in her dreams seem "incredibly real"


And of course, some pretty straightforward evidence against R>F is the fact that the difference between the Honkai on Earth and the Imaginary Tree (which contains all the Imaginary Spaces) is simply a matter of containing quantitatively more Honkai.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

Three questions/issues:

How do we know that Star Dream views the actual baseline reality of Honkai Impact as a dream rather than some other random reality? For all we know, this could just be a downwards hierarchy like Project Stigma. R>F doesn't scale anywhere unless there's an R>F layer ABOVE baseline reality. Even if it WAS R>F (which is already contentious), as Everything12 brought up, the universe she dreamed up could have been just as real as her world in the past but became fictional when it collapsed.

How do we know it's actually R>F? These dreams could be a form of astral projection or something of that sort into another world just as real as hers rather than R>F. Some support for this idea is that we know that Rabbit continued existing even though she used to wake up from her dreams and that Rabbit talked about civilizations that she was yet to dream of as if they already existed, so there is an extent to which these dreamed universes are independent of her. This is contrary to an actual R>F dream scenario where a "dream world" exists solely because of the dreamer.

And of course, some pretty straightforward evidence against R>F is the fact that the difference between the Honkai on Earth and the Imaginary Tree (which contains all the Imaginary Spaces) is simply a matter of containing quantitatively more Honkai.

Show evidence of paragraph 2.
And also the first paragraphs reasoning goes under equal interpretation which the reasoning stated isn't exactly logical.

Also the scan you sent is weak evidence for this Quantative superiority you speak of. Ontologically speaking of there's going to exist two distinct properties, A and B for this discussion. If A is the originate and B is simply a predicate of the originate, with the context given in hoyoverse, we can then assert that this would be some sort of "platonic" emanation, as in a processes has lower states in which it would be fundamentally beyond.

 

[Telomera]

Show evidence of paragraph 2.
And also the first paragraphs reasoning goes under equal interpretation which the reasoning stated isn't exactly logical.

In both cases, I'm just offering an equally-likely alternative. Just like I have no proof that this is just astral projection or that the dream doesn't include baseline reality, you have no proof that this is R>F or that it is an upwards hierarchy. The issue here is that I am not the one making a claim; on the other hand, you and the OP are the ones actively claiming that this is 1-A. As a result, you and the OP have to actually prove (to a reasonable extent, of course) both that this is actual R>F and that it is an upwards hierarchy rather than a downwards one. According to the page on R>F transcendence, "simple visual portrayals of a character viewing the world within some such construct [in this case, a dream] are not enough to qualify... it ought to be reasonably clear that the higher world views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself, or in other words, that the Reality/Fiction relationship be meant as relatively literal." No such clarity exists in this case. All we have is a universe being portrayed as a "dream" (which is not enough to qualify) and no further clarification on whether this actually entails that Star Dream "views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself"

Also the scan you sent is weak evidence for this Quantative superiority you speak of.

The scan literally describes the scale of the Imaginary Tree on the exact same scale of transfinite numbers that it uses for Earth. Just like Earth, the Imaginary Tree is "also infinite in scale in a transfinite sense." That is a quantitative difference.

 

[Reiner04]

How do we know that Star Dream views the actual baseline reality of Honkai Impact as a dream rather than some other random reality? For all we know, this could just be a downwards hierarchy like Project Stigma. R>F doesn't scale anywhere unless there's an R>F layer ABOVE baseline reality. Even if it WAS R>F (which is already contentious), as Everything12 brought up, the universe she dreamed up could have been just as real as her world in the past but became fictional when it collapsed.

Default assumption is that if a world is shown or appeared as someone's dream or game, then it is R>F unless proven otherwise.

And of course, some pretty straightforward evidence against R>F is the fact that the difference between the Honkai on Earth and the Imaginary Tree (which contains all the Imaginary Spaces) is simply a matter of containing quantitatively more Honkai.

This is the issue.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

In both cases, I'm just offering an equally-likely alternative. Just like I have no proof that this is just astral projection or that the dream doesn't include baseline reality, you have no proof that this is R>F or that it is an upwards hierarchy. The issue here is that I am not the one making a claim; on the other hand, you and the OP are the ones actively claiming that this is 1-A. As a result, you and the OP have to actually prove (to a reasonable extent, of course) both that this is actual R>F and that it is an upwards hierarchy rather than a downwards one. According to the page on R>F transcendence, "simple visual portrayals of a character viewing the world within some such construct [in this case, a dream] are not enough to qualify... it ought to be reasonably clear that the higher world views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself, or in other words, that the Reality/Fiction relationship be meant as relatively literal." No such clarity exists in this case. All we have is a universe being portrayed as a "dream" (which is not enough to qualify) and no further clarification on whether this actually entails that Star Dream "views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself"

The scan literally describes the scale of the Imaginary Tree on the exact same scale of transfinite numbers that it uses for Earth. Just like Earth, the Imaginary Tree is "also infinite in scale in a transfinite sense." That is a quantitative difference.

I'll wait for CN verification on that last one.

The problem with the first part of what you said is that you admitted to equal interpretation. If we are going to be going under equal interpretation within the dialectic then we must see which interlocker's "interpretation" would be more valid. The OP (interlocker 1) already made a case for why what their saying is going to be the case. If you are engaging apon said proposition, which a counter argument, to try to suggest another interpretation is true, your going to also give scans and reasoning behind that interpretation.

So what's the P and ~P here?

 

[Telomera]

Default assumption is that if a world is shown or appeared as someone's dream or game, then it is R>F unless proven otherwise.

No it's not. The FAQ says that "simple visual portrayals of a character viewing the world within some such construct [in reference to mediums like dreams, written media, data, etc] are not enough to qualify" for R>F. The burden of proof is on the scaler to show that it is "reasonably clear that the higher world views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself, or in other words, that the Reality/Fiction relationship be meant as relatively literal." There needs to be more elaboration than just "this character views x as a dream."

This is the issue.

It is indeed a big issue.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

No it's not. The FAQ says that "simple visual portrayals of a character viewing the world within some such construct [in reference to mediums like dreams, written media, data, etc] are not enough to qualify" for R>F. The burden of proof is on the scaler to show that it is "reasonably clear that the higher world views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself, or in other words, that the Reality/Fiction relationship be meant as relatively literal." There needs to be more elaboration than just "this character views x as a dream."

It is indeed a big issue.

The scans in question indicate ontological difference. Like I already explained but you didn't interact with that part of my argument at all

 

[Everything12]

Default assumption is that if a world is shown or appeared as someone's dream or game, then it is R>F unless proven otherwise.

Not really, it depends on context.

 

[Weaver261]

The scan literally describes the scale of the Imaginary Tree on the exact same scale of transfinite numbers that it uses for Earth. Just like Earth, the Imaginary Tree is "also infinite in scale in a transfinite sense." That is a quantitative difference

Idk who started with the idea of scaling with this scan but it's honestly dumb. They are just talking about how Honkai is unstoppable becuz even if we purged all Honkai from solar system, we are still nowhere of purging entire Honkai source which originate in IMG space of IMG tree. Einstein is just putting that in mathematical jargons. There's nothing that mention dimensions or realms or anything of sort

 

[henryzx900ruly]

Not really, it depends on context.

If it's fine I suggest I give you my interpretation that wasn't put onto the thread to better help you understand what we are seeing from this .

 

[Telomera]

The OP (interlocker 1) already made a case for why what their saying is going to be the case.

No he didn't. He gave zero support for that interpretation. All he did was yap about how ontology was mentioned in Honkai, that "imaginary" shapes reality, and that "spirit" is the true essence of the cosmos, all of which are completely irrelevant to whether or not Star Dream has R>F over the universe she dreams of.

 

[Weaver261]

I suggest you guys to read the OP properly and not derail the thread. If u got questions, I will try to explain by myself

 

[henryzx900ruly]

No he didn't. He gave zero support for that interpretation. All he did was yap about how ontology was mentioned in Honkai, that "imaginary" shapes reality, and that "spirit" is the true essence of the cosmos, all of which are completely irrelevant to whether or not Star Dream has R>F over the universe she dreams of.

This is a lot of nothing. First off, He did give reasoning behind it. We are speaking in terms of Ontology and it's differences no? If there's going to be some type of true essence in which everything, to it, is a trivial property, then it would relate to the star dream, etc etc.

Also I want an argument for why he didn't. What you simply stated is "XYZ" with no justification. The premises don't match the conclusion buddy. What you wrote here is incoherent and has no logical reasoning whatsoever.

 

[Telomera]

Not really, it depends on context.

The issue here is that there's literally no context here supporting actual R>F. This runs directly against the page on R>F establishing that we have to give actual evidence/elaboration of R>F beyond simply showing that a character views something else through some medium, and that viewing something else through some medium such as a dream is not enough evidence for R>F

 

[Telomera]

If there's going to be some type of true essence in which everything, to it, is a trivial property, then it would relate to the star dream, etc etc.

OP did not provide any evidence that Imaginary views "everything" as "a trivial property." We don't just automatically assume that an "essence" of something views that something as "trivial."

So where is this "case" that OP made? Is that it?

 

[henryzx900ruly]

The issue here is that there's literally no context here supporting actual R>F. This runs directly against the page on R>F establishing that we have to give actual evidence/elaboration of R>F beyond simply showing that a character views something else through some medium, and that viewing something else through some medium such as a dream is not enough evidence for R>F

Claiming this doesn't help and shows something about you. First off, I've already said multiple times that Ontologically speaking **If a Property is a predicate of a Essence or some type of state, and the descriptive function, states something which is generally lower. From what we've seen within the verse. The context provided for lead to OP's conclusion.

 

[henryzx900ruly]

OP did not provide any evidence that Imaginary views "everything" as "a trivial property." We don't just automatically assume that an "essence" of something views that something as "trivial."

So where is this "case" that OP made? Is that it?

I would like to see where this should have been shown.
I believe the evidence has been shown in {here}

 

[henryzx900ruly]

This conversation is gonna have to hold..I'm going to sleep.

 

[Telomera]

**If a Property is a predicate of a Essence or some type of state, and the descriptive function, states something which is generally lower.

What? That's not even a complete sentence. Please elaborate properly.

The context provided for lead to OP's conclusion.

You can claim that all you want, but such claims have no ground if you do not provide the actual context (evidence) or explain how this context supports your point (reasoning). Remember, ClEvR. Claim, Evidence, Reasoning

 

[Weaver261]

In both cases, I'm just offering an equally-likely alternative. Just like I have no proof that this is just astral projection or that the dream doesn't include baseline reality, you have no proof that this is R>F or that it is an upwards hierarchy. The issue here is that I am not the one making a claim; on the other hand, you and the OP are the ones actively claiming that this is 1-A. As a result, you and the OP have to actually prove (to a reasonable extent, of course) both that this is actual R>F and that it is an upwards hierarchy rather than a downwards one. According to the page on R>F transcendence, "simple visual portrayals of a character viewing the world within some such construct [in this case, a dream] are not enough to qualify... it ought to be reasonably clear that the higher world views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself, or in other words, that the Reality/Fiction relationship be meant as relatively literal." No such clarity exists in this case. All we have is a universe being portrayed as a "dream" (which is not enough to qualify) and no further clarification on whether this actually entails that Star Dream "views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself"

The story clearly stated how Star Dream maintaining the entire universe. This entire universe doesn't need to be base reality since base reality is not just one. In honkai cosmology, we have infinite base realities (Proper worlds) and infinite imaginary space. Imaginary in nature is already ontologically superior to any base reality. The point I am making by bringing up star dream is about how Imaginary beings can see base reality as dreams. This is further reinforced by the spiritual adam. The point is Star Dream being ontologically superior to material universe. It's neither upward and downward. Imaginary space is just above material
Even still after all of that and you guys are still not agreeing with star dream R>F, that's fine too since Metaphysical parts are easily 1-A supports.

The scan literally describes the scale of the Imaginary Tree on the exact same scale of transfinite numbers that it uses for Earth. Just like Earth, the Imaginary Tree is "also infinite in scale in a transfinite sense." That is a quantitative difference.

I have already explained that here

Idk who started with the idea of scaling with this scan but it's honestly dumb. They are just talking about how Honkai is unstoppable becuz even if we purged all Honkai from solar system, we are still nowhere of purging entire Honkai source which originate in IMG space of IMG tree. Einstein is just putting that in mathematical jargons. There's nothing that mention dimensions or realms or anything of sort.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

The story clearly stated how Star Dream maintaining the entire universe. This entire universe doesn't need to be base reality since base reality is not just one. In honkai cosmology, we have infinite base realities (Proper worlds) and infinite imaginary space. Imaginary in nature is already ontologically superior to any base reality. The point I am making by bringing up star dream is about how Imaginary beings can see base reality as dreams. This is further reinforced by the spiritual adam. The point is Star Dream being ontologically superior to material universe. It's neither upward and downward. Imaginary space is just above material
Even still after all of that and you guys are still not agreeing with star dream R>F, that's fine too since Metaphysical parts are easily 1-A supports.

I have already explained that here

you should put scans explaning proper worlds (aka leaf worlds) and other scans if you wanna support this.

 

[VoidGoji]

No. This was discussed and rejected before.

 

[Weaver261]

No. This was discussed and rejected before.

No, it's not. Even if it's, just because it was rejected once by some staff in the past for not much clear reasons, it doesn't mean it should be stay rejected in the future which has better proposal.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

No.

 

[Furina003]

Agree with everything, trancendency R>F enough convincing for me

 

[Telomera]

Imaginary in nature is already ontologically superior to any base reality....
Even still after all of that and you guys are still not agreeing with star dream R>F, that's fine too since Metaphysical parts are easily 1-A supports.

No it's not. "Ontological superiority" was never mentioned or even implied. All you did was take a single one-off mention of "ontology" and assume that all unrelated statements of "transcendence" refer to "ontological transcendence" for no actual reason whatsoever.

You also mentioned Imaginary being the "essence of the cosmos" and ideas shaping reality in Honkai but literally none of that shit is outer.