22nd Budokai Arc Downgrades (Dragon Ball)

[Damage3245]

The purpose of this revision is to revise the AP, Striking Strength and Durability statistics of Tien Shinhan, Master Roshi, Son Goku, Drum and Yajirobe.

Currently, the characters all scale to Moon level via Tien Shinhan being scaled erroneously to Master Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha feat.

The justifications given in Tien's key are these:

• Master Roshi stated that Tenshinhan might have won if their fight continued.
• It was also stated by Roshi that Tien's attack was stronger than the Kamehameha

For the first point, Master Roshi never used his Max Power form against Tien Shinhan and showed no intention of resorting to that. If Tien were to possibly beat Master Roshi within the bounds of the 22nd Budokai, it doesn't mean that he would have had to surpass Master Roshi's Max Power in order to be declared the winner.

For the second point, the Kamehameha does not have a set power level. The Kamehameha when used normally by fighters during this time doesn't cause anything like the destruction of celestial bodies. When Tien performed his own Kamehameha, Master Roshi was merely worried about it potentially killing some of the spectators and he was able to deflect it without his full power. Moreover Master Roshi brings up a point of comparison about the destruction caused by Tien's attack. If he was comparing it to a typical Kamehameha such as Yamcha's who only destroys a couple walls then it makes perfect sense. But if he's comparing it to an attack that destroyed a celestial body... then it makes no sense.

There are other potential arguments one could try to use to make Tien scale to the Kamehameha such as Master Roshi stating that the Kamehameha doesn't work against Tien "no matter how powerful it is". But this statement most likely refers to Tien's ability to reflect the Kamehameha back at the user.

So without these justifications, Tien would go to At least Large Building level via scaling to Son Goku.

Master Roshi has no need of a separate Max Power key, and we'd just put his feat where it chronologically belongs in his 21st Budokai key. The MAX Power Kamehameha is a charged attack he uses only in a special form, so there is no need for it to be scaled to his other statistics.

Son Goku scales to At least Large Building level due to his prior key.

Drum, who fought Tien, would scale to Tien's value of At least Large Building level.

Yajirobe would have his "Possibly Moon level" rating removed.

The full details of the character's ratings can be found in this sandbox.


Please leave all conversation about characters like King Piccolo, Mr. Popo, Kami, etc. separate from this thread as they're not involved in the scaling chain.


Votes

Agrees with "Possibly Moon level": DarkDragonMedeus, Damage3245, KingTempest, Maverick_Zero_X

Agrees with "Moon level": LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[KingTempest]

Looks great

 

[Stryker861]

Seems fine

 

[Nierre]

Naturally I agree.

I was talking to KT about it earlier too, didn't expect you to make a CRT on it lol

 

[Damage3245]

Naturally I agree.

I was talking to KT about it earlier too, didn't expect you to make a CRT on it lol

I attribute all inspiration for the CRT to KT noticing some issues with the current scaling.

 

[Eseseso]

Seems fine.

 

[Maizesoup]

Agree

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with it.

 

[Ped2018]

I attribute all inspiration for the CRT to KT noticing some issues with the current scaling.

People talking about Damage everyday when the real villain and mastermind behind it all is KT.


Agree btw.

 

[CloverDragon03]

People talking about Damage everyday when the real villain and mastermind behind it all is KT.


Agree btw.

They’re both villains

Seems fine at a glance

 

[CloverDragon03]

Actually for the second point, I’d like to ask if there’s a possible way to figure out how powerful of a Kamehameha the one Roshi is likening the Tri-Beam to is

Especially because, with the way Roshi is saying it, and given how powerful even his strongest Kamehameha is, the fact that he still considers the Tri-Beam above it is pretty telling.

I really am about to talk myself into disagreeing after I told myself I wouldn’t participate I swear

 

[Damage3245]

They’re both villains

Seems fine at a glance

You're not wrong.

Spoiler

 

[DonkeySlayer06]

Absolutely I agree. Although Tien scaled up to Master Roshi, I found it strange that such contradictory words were used in the series.

 

[Damage3245]

Actually for the second point, I’d like to ask if there’s a possible way to figure out how powerful of a Kamehameha the one Roshi is likening the Tri-Beam to is

I cannot think of any reliable way.

KT suggested calcing Tien's Tri-Beam as a backup solution.

But in any case, the Tri-Beam concentrates virtually all of Tien's Ki into a single attack. It wouldn't scale to his regular stats anyway which is what is being downgraded here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I cannot think of any reliable way.

KT suggested calcing Tien's Tri-Beam as a backup solution.

But in any case, the Tri-Beam concentrates virtually all of Tien's Ki into a single attack. It wouldn't scale to his regular stats anyway which is what is being downgraded here.

Is this really the case? I’m not too familiar with OG Dragon Ball scaling-wise but I thought it was just the Neo Tri-Beam from Z that functioned this way

 

[Nierre]

Yeah it doesn't scale to Tien himself, he's even seen panting after shooting it.

 

[Damage3245]

Is this really the case? I’m not too familiar with OG Dragon Ball scaling-wise but I thought it was just the Neo Tri-Beam from Z that functioned this way

Yeah, he focuses all of his Ki into his hands. And he actually has to consciously hold back a little otherwise he will use up all of his energy and be out of the fight completely.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Fair enough. Going by Roshi’s statement, though, I’d figure it’d be something like:

“At least High 8-C, 5-C with Tri-Beam”

Though the other side of things is that if that’s all his energy, that means he has that level of energy within him

 

[Damage3245]

Fair enough. Going by Roshi’s statement, though, I’d figure it’d be something like:

“At least High 8-C, 5-C with Tri-Beam”

Though the other side of things is that if that’s all his energy, that means he has that level of energy within him

I don't think Roshi's statement by itself is enough support for 5-C scaling for Tien's Tri-Beam.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't think Roshi's statement by itself is enough support for 5-C scaling for Tien's Tri-Beam.

Personally I’d say so, given that he’s done the 5-C Kamehameha by this point, and yet even having done so, he still views the Tri-Beam as superior

 

[Damage3245]

Personally I’d say so, given that he’s done the 5-C Kamehameha by this point, and yet even having done so, he still views the Tri-Beam as superior

The Kamehameha can vary a lot as I pointed out in the OP. Tien's own use of the Kamehameha is far weaker than Master Roshi's Max Kamehameha.

Even Yamcha's Kamehameha which Tien felt the need to deflect couldn't destroy more than a building.

To me, the most contexually sensible comparison is between Tien's Tri-Beam and normal uses of the Kamehameha which at this point is not that high. There's no direct comparison between the Tri-Beam and the Max Kamehameha. Especially when Roshi is astounded at Tien's level of destruction which is just the arena.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The Kamehameha can vary a lot as I pointed out in the OP. Tien's own use of the Kamehameha is far weaker than Master Roshi's Max Kamehameha.

Even Yamcha's Kamehameha which Tien felt the need to deflect couldn't destroy more than a building.

To me, the most contexually sensible comparison is between Tien's Tri-Beam and normal uses of the Kamehameha which at this point is not that high. There's no direct comparison between the Tri-Beam and the Max Kamehameha. Especially when Roshi is astounded at Tien's level of destruction which is just the arena.

See this is a case of equating Attack Potency to Destructive Capacity, something which the site fundamentally does not do because fiction tends to not do so

 

[Damage3245]

See this is a case of equating Attack Potency to Destructive Capacity, something which the site fundamentally does not do because fiction tends to not do so

I don't think that applies here when Destructive Capacity is highlighted in the scene in question.

But I think we'll be going in circles here so I'll wait to see what others say.

 

[Hypertornado099]

There are other potential arguments one could try to use to make Tien scale to the Kamehameha such as Master Roshi stating that the Kamehameha doesn't work against Tien "no matter how powerful it is". But this statement most likely refers to Tien's ability to reflect the Kamehameha back at the user.

Does this ability only work on Kamehameha?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

See this is a case of equating Attack Potency to Destructive Capacity, something which the site fundamentally does not do because fiction tends to not do so

I don't think that applies here when Destructive Capacity is highlighted in the scene in question.

But I think we'll be going in circles here so I'll wait to see what others say.

I agree with Damage here, Roshi isn’t surprised at that level of power behind it but the AOE damage it caused and says a regular kamehameha cannot cause that much Damage (pun intended). It seems as if he’s comparing this to the basic usages of the kamehameha which are around wall-building range and not his max powered Kamehameha

 

[CloverDragon03]

I agree with Damage here, Roshi isn’t surprised at that level of power behind it but the AOE damage it caused and says a regular kamehameha cannot cause that much Damage (pun intended). It seems as if he’s comparing this to the basic usages of the kamehameha which are around wall-building range and not his max powered Kamehameha

Roshi not being surprised at the power is just wrong, as in the scan he straight up says "What power..."

 

[TimmyTurnero]

While that’s true right before he says that he also says “what destruction” which can allude to him referring to the destructive power. That seems to be what he’s referring to.

 

[CloverDragon03]

While that’s true right before he says that he also says “what destruction” which can allude to him referring to the destructive power. That seems to be what he’s referring to.

Or!

He's referring to both the destruction and its raw power

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I find myself agreeing more with Clover here.

 

[Eseseso]

I agree with Clover.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If we exclude Max Power Roshi scaling, I recall Tri Beam used to have its own 8-A calculation on Narutoforums. Also Tien has reacted to an attack from King Piccolo, so there are still reaction speed discussions that could be saved for later.

But I honestly agree more with Clover.

 

[Nierre]

oooh interesting development

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Well... Clover seems to have a good idea, so I agree with him.

 

[KingTempest]

There is nothing saying that he scales above Full Power Roshi's Kamehameha

 

[CloverDragon03]

There is nothing saying that he scales above Full Power Roshi's Kamehameha

Except for... you know, Roshi saying the Kamehameha doesn't begin to compare to the Tri-Beam, with Roshi himself having done his 5-C Kamehameha by this point

It does nothing to simply assert your claim as true again without further substantiation

 

[KingTempest]

Except for... you know, Roshi saying the Kamehameha doesn't begin to compare to the Tri-Beam, with Roshi himself having done his 5-C Kamehameha by this point

It does nothing to simply assert your claim as true again without further substantiation

He says that specifically for the destructive power of the attack, repeatedly, never noting its attack potency but his destructive capacity

Everything about the Tri-Beam is about how destructive it is, not about its attack potency

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not only are the scans you're using fan translations (Damage has the officials of the second page in the OP, and it highlights both the destruction and the sheer power of the attack), but again... The Kamehameha has shown 5-C destructive capacity before, and yet despite that, Roshi places the Tri-Beam above the Kamehameha

That's not even getting into how I frankly feel this is just arguing semantics to begin with, especially in the context of Dragon Ball. Since when has destructive power meant something besides AP in Dragon Ball?

 

[KingTempest]

Not only are the scans you're using fan translations (Damage has the officials of the second page in the OP,

Hmm, so the useless second page in my message. Alright.
I have the straight Viz officials directly from the Viz website. Right here in fact. They say it even clearer

and it highlights both the destruction and the sheer power of the attack),

It highlights both how the destruction and the sheer power of the attack is a lot.
It highlights how the destruction of the sheer power is superior to the Kamehameha.

It doesn't matter if it says "it can destroy more than the Kamehameha", if it doesn't have a statement of "it hits harder than the Kamehameha", then it's useless

but again... The Kamehameha has shown 5-C destructive capacity before, and yet despite that, Roshi places the Tri-Beam above the Kamehameha

Okay, so why doesn't the Tri-Beam just blow out the damn arena and the entire city since its destructive power is fully superior to the likes of the Kamehamehas that Roshi has done as a whole then?

That's not even getting into how I frankly feel this is just arguing semantics to begin with, especially in the context of Dragon Ball. Since when has destructive power meant something besides AP in Dragon Ball?

When the context is "destroy the arena for a ringout".

 

[CloverDragon03]

Hmm, so the useless second page in my message. Alright.
I have the straight Viz officials directly from the Viz website. Right here in fact. They say it even clearer

"Many times more powerful than the Kamehameha"
Look, an even clearer description of how the Tri-Beam is stronger than the Kamehameha

It highlights both how the destruction and the sheer power of the attack is a lot.
It highlights how the destruction of the sheer power is superior to the Kamehameha.

It doesn't matter if it says "it can destroy more than the Kamehameha", if it doesn't have a statement of "it hits harder than the Kamehameha", then it's useless

So you acknowledge that it's referring to the sheer power as well, and then go on to dismiss that by saying "it has to say 'it hits harder than the Kamehameha'" for it to actually mean anything...

You're basically saying "it doesn't say this very specific thing so I'm going to ignore everything else that points to this relating to AP." This is incredibly unreasonable

Okay, so why doesn't the Tri-Beam just blow out the damn arena and the entire city since its destructive power is fully superior to the likes of the Kamehamehas that Roshi has done as a whole then?

Because the goal is to destroy the arena and nothing else?

And Tien is also specifically using a held-back version so as to not consume his life force

When the context is "destroy the arena for a ringout".

That... quite literally changes nothing.

If it's stated to have more destructive power than the Kamehameha by Roshi, who has done a Kamehameha of moon-destroying capacity himself, what do you expect me to get out of that?

 

[KingTempest]

"Many times more powerful than the Kamehameha"
Look, an even clearer description of how the Tri-Beam is stronger than the Kamehameha

"A move of destructive force... many times more powerful than even the Kamehameha"
It uses powerful to note how it's just greater in DC. That's why they're part of the same sentence

So you acknowledge that it's referring to the sheer power as well, and then go on to dismiss that by saying "it has to say 'it hits harder than the Kamehameha'" for it to actually mean anything...

Wtf

I'm acknowledging that it's saying it hits hard, but the main part is that its DC is superior to the Kamehameha.
"
It's a strong move, but one of its aspects is superior to the Kamehameha. That doesn't mean everything hyped up > Kamehameha.
"This attack is wide spread, hot, powerful, and extremely energy taxing. It could cause more widespread damage than my attack" your logic is scale everything that it hypes up to the specific attack

You're basically saying "it doesn't say this very specific thing so I'm going to ignore everything else that points to this relating to AP." This is incredibly unreasonable

There is NOTHING that points it to superior AP.

Because the goal is to destroy the arena and nothing else?

And Tien is also specifically using a held-back version so as to not consume his life force

Specifically stated to be not that far held back and he only needed to leave a decent amount of his energy for himself.
If he minimized it by a small amount like that it should've still blew up a portion of that entire city.

Even if it's 1% of the full power of the attack, it'd still cause ridiculous damage to the surroundings

That... quite literally changes nothing.

If it's stated to have more destructive power than the Kamehameha by Roshi, who has done a Kamehameha of moon-destroying capacity himself, what do you expect me to get out of that?

I'd expect it to show something that's akin to the full power kamehameha requiring Roshi to change states, not the average destructive power of the Kamehameha.

The average Kamehameha puts holes in walls and makes room sized explosions. The strongest Kamehameha we see blows up the moon.
His is stated to have more destructive power than the Kamehameha, then he blows up the stadium, and Roshi says "yes, it has more destructive power than the Kamehameha"

It destroying the arena is now more AOE than the moon busting Kamehameha?

It looks to be the average Kamehameha instead of Roshi's damn strongest one