22nd Budokai Arc Downgrades (Dragon Ball)

[Jaakor48]

Every shred of evidence points to his tri beam being superior to Roshi's moon buster and a guide, that is deemed usable in this wiki straight up calls the tri beam he used against Goku (which ur held back on) as the list powerful one used so far

What exactly is the "possibly" rating for? That implies there's a chance it's weaker

 

[ChronoULT]

Every shred of evidence points to his tri beam being superior to Roshi's moon buster and a guide, that is deemed usable in this wiki straight up calls the tri beam he used against Goku (which ur held back on) as the list powerful one used so far

What exactly is the "possibly" rating for? That implies there's a chance it's weaker

Same here, why is it only "possibly" if it's outright said to be the strongest attack shown in the manga until that point?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Their physicals or just the Tri-Beam?

I think Kikōhō is the correct term, Tenshinhan didn't invent is after all

 

[SirAlex09]

The Possibly is unnecessary.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Wait, so we have a definitive evidence, supported by the line in the source material, yet we're only gonna be given a "Possibly"? That's not right and contradicts the very meaning of the possibly rating in this case, one cannot argue that Tien "might not have surpassed" Roshi with these evidences at play.

Remember that we already accept that specific AoE applies to the show, so using the size of the hole is also not possible. There needs to be substantial or equivalent counter-evidence on the opposing side for one to argue for a "possibly" rather than a full rating.

 

[Sparkive]

For the person who said that the techniques are just as powerful as the user...
The techniques draw out more power than the person has (Goku vs. Raditz, Goku's Kame Hame Ha goes to more than 924 power even though his power level was 416 back then)
Vol. 17, #199 (Goku)
Vol. 17, #201 (Goku Kamehameha)

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

For the person who said that the techniques are just as powerful as the user...
The techniques draw out more power than the person has (Goku vs. Raditz, Goku's Kame Hame Ha goes to more than 924 power even though his power level was 416 back then)
Vol. 17, #199 (Goku)
Vol. 17, #201 (Goku Kamehameha)

This has already been addressed, and Goku is relative to the Kamehameha either way for being able to take hits from Radtiz (albeit obviously weaker), they're suggesting a 10 million gap because... Honestly idk, the narrative is pretty clear about Roshi being surpassed

Damage went on a tangent about the gap not mattering because DB has questionable writing or something, but I don't think that's fair when OP is the one trying to push this scenario where the writing is bad, even though that's no implied at all.

 

[RedReaper]

This has already been addressed, and Goku is relative to the Kamehameha either way for being able to take hits from Radtiz (albeit obviously weaker), they're suggesting a 10 million gap because... Honestly idk, the narrative is pretty clear about Roshi being surpassed

Damage went on a tangent about the gap not mattering because DB has questionable writing or something, but I don't think that's fair when OP is the one trying to push this scenario where the writing is bad, even though that's no implied at all.

Especially when I’ve pointed out how narratively this is all done for the same reason Saibamen are = to Raditz in the Saiyan Saga. By creating Tien as a stronger than Roshi benchmark who then trains to get Mafuba, you get a general understanding of how much more powerful Goku must be from the 22nd Ten and how powerful Young Daimao Piccolo is.

 

[KingTempest]

Early Goku being relative to his kamehameha is the craziest thing I’ve heard all year

 

[omegabronic]

This has already been addressed, and Goku is relative to the Kamehameha either way for being able to take hits from Radtiz (albeit obviously weaker), they're suggesting a 10 million gap because... Honestly idk, the narrative is pretty clear about Roshi being surpassed

Damage went on a tangent about the gap not mattering because DB has questionable writing or something, but I don't think that's fair when OP is the one trying to push this scenario where the writing is bad, even though that's no implied at all.

yeah, but the max power kamehameha is not known if it would still be relative to roshi

 

[KingTempest]

How the hell is max power kamehameha relative to roshi

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Even the Super Kamehameha couldn't kill Piccolo Jr. tho

 

[Shadyboi0]

Even the Super Kamehameha couldn't kill Piccolo Jr. tho

What does Piccolo have to do with this? This is before that

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What does Piccolo have to do with this? This is before that

Ye, but I remember the Daizenshuu comparing the Super Kamehameha to the MAX Kamehameha, the former didn't even knock out someone relative to Goku

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Early Goku being relative to his kamehameha is the craziest thing I’ve heard all year

I'd love to see your counters rather than just these pointless comments though! That would be nice!

The fact the Kamehameha was weaker than Raditz is evident, even then, Goku with a Power level of 416 was still able to withstand some attacks which means his durability (thus all his stats) at least scales to him to some extent
Goku is relative to his own Kamehameha.

Doesn't change the fact that Possibly 5-C for Kikoho is against the rules based on the very definition of the rating.

 

[KingTempest]

Ye, but I remember the Daizenshuu comparing the Super Kamehameha to the MAX Kamehameha, the former didn't even knock out someone relative to Goku

They never compared either, they said that they can both destroy the moon

I'd love to see your counters rather than just these pointless comments though! That would be nice!

You don't, because I'm petty and hardheaded

The fact the Kamehameha was weaker than Raditz is evident, even then, Goku with a Power level of 416 was still able to withstand some attacks which means his durability (thus all his stats) at least scales to him to some extent

They violently backscale as a casual Raditz was able to wash both of them at the same time

And no, your durability scaling to somebody does not mean all your stats scale to them

Goku is relative to his own Kamehameha.

No the hell he is not

Doesn't change the fact that Possibly 5-C for Kikoho is against the rules based on the very definition of the rating.

No, because there's evidence that 5-C is there, and there's evidence that it's referencing the average non 5-C Kamehameha, so both sides are decently valid enough

 

[Jaakor48]

There is zero evidence that it was compared to the so called non 5c Kamehameha, when the guy who did the 5c Kamehameha never even hinted at it, and a guide straight up calls it the strongest attack at that time ...or was the guide also meaning "strongest attack without Roshi going into max power?"


This is ridiculous at this point

 

[KingTempest]

There is zero evidence that it was compared to the so called non 5c Kamehameha, when the guy who did the 5c Kamehameha never even hinted at it, and a guide straight up calls it the strongest attack at that time ...or was the guide also meaning "strongest attack without Roshi going into max power?"

When it being shown to destroy a ******* arena the size of my basement is stated to be destruction far superior to a kamehameha

 

[Lawyerr]

Dragonball may be the only verse where someone destroys something, outright states that a different technique is superior, and people say the different technique is not superior because "nuh uh".

Jesus.

There is zero evidence that it was compared to the so called non 5c Kamehameha, when the guy who did the 5c Kamehameha never even hinted at it, and a guide straight up calls it the strongest attack at that time ...or was the guide also meaning "strongest attack without Roshi going into max power?"


This is ridiculous at this point

Exactly.

What is this nonsense?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I thought every Dragon ball character scales to their attacks due to how ki works. They can both use it to attack and defend. The only reasons that wouldn't apply is in extreme cases like kienzan, kikoho, final explosion, Spirit bomb and such. Everything else from Kamehameha to galick gun to heck Special beam Cannon though that does make it slightly easier to damage someone should be relative to one's defense...This has been known for years.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

When it being shown to destroy a ******* arena the size of my basement is stated to be destruction far superior to a kamehameha

King please stop that. It's sad at that point and you know it. You have a million points arguing against it and you are stuck to but but it only destroyed the Arena in a universe that AOE means jackshit in an attack with very specific size. Roshi's own Kamehameha at First destroyed a mountain and then a moon and it was the same move at the same power. Like you may think you are doing something but this is not it. You have thousands of statements against it and you are caught on the what destruction part.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

For the person who said that the techniques are just as powerful as the user...
The techniques draw out more power than the person has (Goku vs. Raditz, Goku's Kame Hame Ha goes to more than 924 power even though his power level was 416 back then)
Vol. 17, #199 (Goku)
Vol. 17, #201 (Goku Kamehameha)

It doesn't draw more power than Goku has. It let's them use more of their ki in a single attack.They tire out faster using it but they have all that ki. That's the difference with the untrained Raditz he was more of a brute and he couldn't use his power well while Goku and Piccolo could both maximize and use both strong and weak attacks to not fizzle out. Else every Kamehameha a person does in a fight would be the very same.

 

[Jaakor48]

When it being shown to destroy a ******* arena the size of my basement is stated to be destruction far superior to a kamehameha

So you're basing this off on just AOE? In dragon ball? And conveniently ignored where he also mentioned it's power as well?

Tien was literally holding back AND telling Goku he had to dodge, why would he want to blow up a moon sized hole? And kill everyone there?

How many moon sized aoe blasts have we seen in the verse?

When the guy who blows up a moon tells you that Tien's tri beam was superior, when a guide BLATANTLY states that it was the most powerful technique used up till that point


HOW in holy hell is it still in contention?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I really would like to get some more opinions here because I'm either crazy or we are arguing things established a decade back that DB characters scale to their own attack including their punches and everything. Like I can't even believe about what's being argued here. The very system by which Dragonball operates is being ******* on.

 

[KingTempest]

I thought every Dragon ball character scales to their attacks due to how ki works. They can both use it to attack and defend. The only reasons that wouldn't apply is in extreme cases like kienzan, kikoho, final explosion, Spirit bomb and such. Everything else from Kamehameha to galick gun to heck Special beam Cannon though that does make it slightly easier to damage someone should be relative to one's defense...This has been known for years.

Kamehameha having over twice the pl of Goku's average hits, Masenko having almost 3x the pl of Gohan's average hits, and whatever else, and Vegeta's Galick Gun matching a KKx3 Kamehameha shows why this is absolutely wrong

 

[KingTempest]

King please stop that. It's sad at that point and you know it. You have a million points arguing against it and you are stuck to but but it only destroyed the Arena in a universe that AOE means jackshit in an attack with very specific size. Roshi's own Kamehameha at First destroyed a mountain and then a moon and it was the same move at the same power. Like you may think you are doing something but this is not it. You have thousands of statements against it and you are caught on the what destruction part.

I already proved they were different and you flat out ignored it

I've had dozens of points for it and you fail to read any of em except "AOE" which you also interpret wrong

I said that his arena destroying feat was stated to be more destructive than the kamehameha, which points to the unified statement of "destruction and power being above the kamehameha" pointing towards the average kamehameha instead of the mountain and moon one

So you're basing this off on just AOE? In dragon ball? And conveniently ignored where he also mentioned it's power as well?

Tien was literally holding back AND telling Goku he had to dodge, why would he want to blow up a moon sized hole? And kill everyone there?

How many moon sized aoe blasts have we seen in the verse?

When the guy who blows up a moon tells you that Tien's tri beam was superior, when a guide BLATANTLY states that it was the most powerful technique used up till that point


HOW in holy hell is it still in contention?

Read above

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

For some reason it's not letting me hit reply so if possible please do bring up the counter points.

Also both the Masenko and the kamehameha are done by focusing ki. The same thing that does give them their durability. The attacks which have another component are few and far between. All the other attacks scale to their users defense.

 

[Jaakor48]

I already proved they were different and you flat out ignored it

I've had dozens of points for it and you fail to read any of em except "AOE" which you also interpret wrong

I said that his arena destroying feat was stated to be more destructive than the kamehameha, which points to the unified statement of "destruction and power being above the kamehameha" pointing towards the average kamehameha instead of the mountain and moon one

Read above

This is not the only time it's happened. Piccolo who literally wiped out the moon with a basic ki blast, was SHOCKED at the power of this attack that he couldn't see the bottom of. AOE wise, that's nothing compared to the moon. But it's clear the power was different and it's clear it had far above moon level AP. I mean, it's obvious what he was referring to .....come on

And the guide outright stating that it was the most powerful technique seen up till that point? Are you implying it doesn't also confirm that it was above max Roshi's Kamehameha?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Nah what would they know? Tempest knows more about it. Let him write the guide.

 

[Jaakor48]

Nah what would they know? Tempest knows more about it. Let him write the guide.

Take it easy man, I know it's frustrating, but calm down

 

[KingTempest]

This is not the first time it's happened. Piccolo who literally wiped out the moon with a basic ki blast, was SHOCKED at the power of this attack that he couldn't see the bottom of. AOE wise, that's nothing compared to the moon. But it's clear the power was different and it's clear it had far above moon level AP. I mean, it's obvious what he was referring to .....come on

i swear to god
so explain why roshi said that destroying the arena was a better destructive feat than destroying the moon

And the guide outright stating that it was the most powerful technique seen up till that point? Are you implying it doesn't also confirm that it was above max Roshi's Kamehameha?

motherfu- I SAID THE POSSIBLY IS FINE implying that it's true and the other interpretation can be true as well

Nah what would they know? Tempest knows more about it. Let him write the guide.

please shut the **** up

and for all the "his kamehameha's energy is the same that's used to defend his body", you're ignoring everything about energy dispersion

Why is it that it has a higher power level than them?

All because they use it to defend doesn't mean they use the same focused energy (which is the energy of the entirety of their ******* body)

You do realize that if I split up 1 billion dollars between 1 billion people, then I give it all to 1 person, you have 1 billion broke ppl vs 1 rich dude, all the same amount of money

All the same amount of ki from around the body all focused in 1 is going to be far stronger than the energy spread out throughout the body

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Oh was it a tad too offensive? Yeah sorry I should leave from this thread. My points have been repeatedly stated and all I'm doing is retelling them. Beyond someone else from the staff seeing the thread I have nothing more to say.

 

[SirAlex09]

Early Goku being relative to his kamehameha is the craziest thing I’ve heard all year

You know...the ki that they focus into a singular point to create attacks can also be used to defend...how else do you think do Dragonball characters defend themselves against beam attacks from characters that are equal to them?

 

[Damage3245]

Since there is a clear staff majority in going for the "possibly 5-C" option, and 48 hours have passed, I think that the thread is safe to apply at this point and will start making the changes.