Cell Games Saga revisions (Dragon Ball Z)

[Chariot190]

Btw, the genki thing would just work in Gohan's favor, we are told, flat out, even after Goku told him to get his ass in gear (aka the "motivation"), that he was still holding back out of fear and not using his full power.

The whole genki mind concept not only is shot down as being in play, as if it was, he'd have gotten a boost, and not still below his normal peak. That did not happen, the Kamehameha we see clash with a 4-B attack, was still well below Gohan's full output, let alone above it.
But the fact right after Goku notes and explains what's going on, and pages later he stops and oops Cell dead, outright tells us the only thing that actually changed, is Gohan stopped being a bitch.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

How??

At the very least, Pre-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks and Post-RoSaT Gotenks upscales from High 4-C+ (>15.8587715849 Foe),—with Gotenks surpassing Vegeta (>8151.40859 Quettatons),—thus making Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks (>792.938579245 Foe) and Super Gotenks (>3.17175431698 KiloFoe) 4-B.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Doesn’t Vegeta state that Goku’s stronger than the power Gohan showed against Cell during the beginning of the fight where they power up to SSJ2? Wouldn’t that include Gohan’s kamehameha against cell? Since I mean he showed it against Cell?

 

[Veronica]

Doesn’t Vegeta state that Goku’s stronger than the power Gohan showed against Cell during the beginning of the fight where they power up to SSJ2? Wouldn’t that include Gohan’s kamehameha against cell? Since I mean he showed it against Cell?

Piccolo also says 'Vegeta surpassed Gohan when he fought against Cell"

 

[Veronica]

It's still a fact that their Ki attack at max power is 3x their physical strength. Nappa punched away, Gohan's Masenko, because his attack had only a PL of 2,800 and Nappa 4,000. So the same principle applies to Cell's Solar Kamehameha

 

[Nullflowerblush]

It's still a fact that their Ki attack at max power is 3x their physical strength.

In the "Future" Trunks Saga, Super Saiyan Blue Goku damaged Fusion Zamasu with an uncharged Kamehameha, and Fusion Zamasu is powerful enough to battle one-on-one with Goku as a Completed Super Saiyan Blue, which is ten-times as powerful.

In the Saiyan Saga, a weakened, exhausted Goku (<8,000) scarred Great Ape Vegeta's (~180,000) face with a basic Ki Blast.

 

[Shadyboi0]

In the Saiyan Saga, a weakened, exhausted Goku (<8,000) scarred Great Ape Vegeta's (~180,000) face with a basic Ki Blast.

Wasn't that his eye?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Wasn't that his eye?

Yeah... A common weak spot...

 

[Damage3245]

In the "Future" Trunks Saga, Super Saiyan Blue Goku damaged Fusion Zamasu with an uncharged Kamehameha, and Fusion Zamasu is powerful enough to battle one-on-one with Goku as a Completed Super Saiyan Blue, which is ten-times as powerful.

To add onto this (in case anyone thinks it is necessary):

Moro could take blow after blow from Ultra Instinct Sign Goku, and block a barely charged Kamehameha with one hand.

Transformed Moro had his arm blown off by a charged Instant Transmission Kamehameha from Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

Ultra Instinct Sign Goku > Super Saiyan Blue Goku

Transformed Moro > Moro

But based on the effectiveness of the attacks:

SSB Goku's charged Kamehameha > Transformed Moro > Moro > Ultra Instinct Sign Goku's Kamehameha / physical attacks

We shouldn't arbitrarily limit charged/special attacks to only a few times the user's ordinary ratings.

 

[Deagonx]

This makes sense to me. There's precedent for the argument in the series.

 

[Damage3245]

Perfect; that makes four staff agreements with the OP.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Kamehamehas have never shown to take someone up a completely new era of power than what they could do before

Goku vs Piccolo for instance, piccolo took his Kamehameha, despite the fact that they were roughly on par power level wise and hurting each other just fine

The largest relative multiplier for the Kamehameha we've seen seen is 416 to 924, a 2.22x boost when used against raditz.

Against Frieza, Goku in KKx20 was at 60million, roughly the same as 50% Frieza, who survived his Kamehameha, although clearly was far more damaged than with Goku's normal attacks and admitted it was a close call for him, now assuming he didn't use 50% to block, the max he could go was 100%, that's still , at best, a 2x gap to survive thr Kamehameha (lesser than thr 2.2x in the raditz saga). Again nowhere near being worlds apart

Against cell, his instant Kamehameha blew his entire top off, as he was hit from point blank and was caught by surprise, but even then, the suppressed cell and Goku were almost even, again showing that there wasnt a gap of more than x2 to overcome

In all the cases, the Kamehameha packs a huge punch, scaling higher than the user's normal levels but not world's higher.

Cell's Solar Kamehameha is calced at about 47x baseline Solar system level, one would need extraordinary evidence to claim that the Kamehameha gave him a boost close to the level of a super saiyan transformation, when every use of this technique, both from canon power levels to canon gaps between characters doesn't have it bypass anywhere to that level

In conclusion, even downscaling from their SPC's KHH, you would still get solar system level for SPC and SSJ2 Gohan, which is.... exactly in line with how it's treated in the story, as scaling higher than their normal stats but not worlds apart

The scaling should be:
Perfect Cell and normal SSJ Gohan will both be "At least Low 4-C" or "At least 4-C" for being superior to Goku as a Super Saiyan. 4-B as Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan and higher into 4-B with their Kamehamehas, with ssj2 Gohan full rage unleashed as even higher



If cell with Kamehameha was baseline 4-B then he would absolutely downscale imho

I agree with this sentiment. I think while Solar Kamehameha (which isn't even an official name in Daizenshuu, it's just a regular Kamehameha fired from a powerful individual)

The Kamehameha wave was never, and I quote, NEVER portrayed as a technique that could kill someone of similar caliber. I think it should downscale to baseline 4-B at the very least

 

[Chariot190]

Doesn’t Vegeta state that Goku’s stronger than the power Gohan showed against Cell during the beginning of the fight where they power up to SSJ2? Wouldn’t that include Gohan’s kamehameha against cell? Since I mean he showed it against Cell?

I mean if ya wanna take it at direct face value, yeah probably.

Anyway, i can think of numerous times mfs have tanked a kamehameha from someone on par, or hell, literally their own.

Case and point (not even the only time btw), i mean yeah a gap exists, but it aint as ludicrous as one thinks. Even the Special Beam Cannon, or Tribeam, attacks that, in regards to power spiking, eclipse a standard kamehameha, arent even as big a jump as what's being implicated here, bit odd no?

Idk about Cell, but Gohan's despondent sandbagging holding back explicitly not at all even using his full power and inversely has a genki debuff due to his fear and mental state ass should scale to his not at all properly charged crippled held back kamehameha.

 

[Damage3245]

Anyway, i can think of numerous times mfs have tanked a kamehameha from someone on par, or hell, literally their own.

The argument has never once been that all Kamehameha are >>>> anyone on the user's level.

 

[Jaakor48]

I agree with this sentiment. I think while Solar Kamehameha (which isn't even an official name in Daizenshuu, it's just a regular Kamehameha fired from a powerful individual)

Yes, and the argument of 'cell charged longer ' gets blown away when Gohan 's barely charged one still held up for a good amount of time meaning their relative boosts weren't worlds apart

The Kamehameha wave was never, and I quote, NEVER portrayed as a technique that could kill someone of similar caliber. I think it should downscale to baseline 4-B at the very least

Don't bother anymore tbh. If you must, it'd probably be better you go the route of the tien thread instead. This one is done

 

[Veronica]

Off topic, but I have a scan and translation of Saiyan Saga Vegeta Galic Gun that debunks the large planet level rating

 

[Damage3245]

Off topic, but I have a scan and translation of Saiyan Saga Vegeta Galic Gun that debunks the large planet level rating

Then save it for another thread please.

 

[Chariot190]

The argument has never once been that all Kamehameha are >>>> anyone on the user's level.

Yeah well aware, that wasnt what i said.

Unfortunately, Gohan's kamehameha that clashed with a 4-B attack, is a combination of genki debuffed, held back and not at all full power, not charged, crippled, and so on. It is anything but an exceptional kamehameha, if anything, it's one of the most nerfed showings of one in verse.

I mean, common sense no? Even things like the Super Kamehameha is a mere 3x buff as shown in multiple cases, and we know not even a 2x gap is enough to vape so shit like that isnt a real argument.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Bro he turned him to a volleyball, wrapped a donut around him, and made exploding ghosts with his face.

This doesn't make sense to be talking about power

Apples and Oranges, the text EXPLICITY talks about the LEVEL of techniques Gotenks displayed. And somehow, inside your brain, you thought "level" was referring to how ridiculous and usual the techniques are, even though the word has NOTHING to do with this description. Lmfao.

Nah, SSJ Gotenks > Father-Son Kamehameha.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah well aware, that wasnt what i said.

Unfortunately, Gohan's kamehameha that clashed with a 4-B attack, is a combination of genki debuffed, held back and not at all full power, not charged, crippled, and so on. It is anything but an exceptional kamehameha, if anything, it's one of the most nerfed showings of one in verse.

I mean, common sense no? Even things like the Super Kamehameha is a mere 3x buff as shown in multiple cases, and we know not even a 2x gap is enough to vape so shit like that isnt a real argument.

Yeah, stuff like this is why I would support the option of scaling SSJ3 Goku to the 4-B rating. It would create a more logical scale and also stick with the established trend that these characters aren't that much weaker than these charged attacks

 

[Damage3245]

Nah, SSJ Gotenks > Father-Son Kamehameha.

According to Nullflowerblush based on Gotenks' other scaling, SSJ Gotenks will be > the Father-Son Kamehameha no matter how we scale Cell or Gohan.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, stuff like this is why I would support the option of scaling SSJ3 Goku to the 4-B rating. It would create a more logical scale and also stick with the established trend that these characters aren't that much weaker than these charged attacks

For what it's worth I plan to setup two sandboxes with both versions of the scaling for comparison and see what staff members think. I'm not rushing the thread to a hasty conclusion with the lowest possible scaling in case anyone was worried about that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's reassuring, at the very least

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

damn
i tried...

No, Null. That's bullshit.
How can "level" attribute to an adjective of uniqueness when LEVEL means MAGNITUDE.

The quality of MAGNITUDE is being given directly to the technique "Level OF TECHNIQUE", yet he claims it means "level of uniqueness", which is nonsense, it does not mention quirkiness at all, which means "level" cannot mean "level of uniqueness". He's just taking the text out of context and adding an entirely new section to deflect from the main argument. Your scan is absolutely valid.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

The Kamehameha wave was never, and I quote, NEVER portrayed as a technique that could kill someone of similar caliber.

Back in the Red Ribbon Army arc, Goku couldn’t damage Major Metallitron’s body with standard attacks but then decapitated him with a Kamehameha, which definitely would’ve been a killing blow if MM weren’t a robot.

Doesn’t this show the technique can cause fatal damage to opponents in the same tier?

 

[Damage3245]

Doesn’t this show the technique can cause fatal damage to opponents in the same tier?

Yeah, I was going to circle back to the "Goku blows up Perfect Cell's upper body with the Instant Tranmission Kamehameha" but that is also a great example.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Back in the Red Ribbon Army arc, Goku couldn’t damage Major Metallitron’s body with standard attacks but then decapitated him with a Kamehameha, which definitely would’ve been a killing blow if MM weren’t a robot.

Doesn’t this show the technique can cause fatal damage to opponents in the same tier?

I mean, I feel as though this doesn’t account for the incredibly vast different between Star level and solar system level, which we would be implementing should this crt be accepted.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

According to Nullflowerblush based on Gotenks' other scaling, SSJ Gotenks will be > the Father-Son Kamehameha no matter how we scale Cell or Gohan.

The scan still is good for support. And having bad arguments acknowledged as righteous leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


Speaking of which. Consider that Gohan SSJ2 didn't charge his Kamehameha wave nearly as much, and that Buu is several times more power than this version of Gohan, and we have basically no reason NOT to scale Buu's Kamehameha wave above Gohan's. This scaling is valid, no?

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Yeah, I was going to circle back to the "Goku blows up Perfect Cell's upper body with the Instant Tranmission Kamehameha" but that is also a great example.

Goku had been charging that blast for at least a bit though, while Gohan really didn’t at all.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Back in the Red Ribbon Army arc, Goku couldn’t damage Major Metallitron’s body with standard attacks but then decapitated him with a Kamehameha, which definitely would’ve been a killing blow if MM weren’t a robot.

Doesn’t this show the technique can cause fatal damage to opponents in the same tier?

Ngl, I got cooked right here.


But still, Gohan should be 1/8th of his own Kamehameha via scaling with Majin Buu

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Side note, wouldn’t Goku’s kamehameha against raditz have been far above large planet level if kamehamehas are this strong? Cell’s kamehameha is not a special kind.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Side note, wouldn’t Goku’s kamehameha against raditz have been far above large planet level if kamehamehas are this strong? Cell’s kamehameha is not a special kind.

It's literally a normal Kamehameha as stated in the guides.

 

[Damage3245]

Side note, wouldn’t Goku’s kamehameha against raditz have been far above large planet level if kamehamehas are this strong? Cell’s kamehameha is not a special kind.

Multipliers don't work like that. We can't boost anyone else's usage of the Kamehameha this way.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Multipliers don't work like that. We can't boost anyone else's usage of the Kamehameha this way.

But why would cell’s kamehameha work differently?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Multipliers don't work like that. We can't boost anyone else's usage of the Kamehameha this way.

There's literally nothing special about Cell's Kamehameha, it's only this strong because he himself is Uber powerful.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I'm usually the first one to be against downgrades of this kind, and honestly we should settle for Gohan being 1/8th of this value. Super Cell would scale somewhat via harming him with a normal blast. It's the best scenario that will satisfy both sides.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm usually the first one to be against downgrades of this kind, and honestly we should settle for Gohan being 1/8th of this value. Super Cell would scale somewhat via harming him with a normal blast. It's the best scenario that will satisfy both sides.

I'll accept that over them being thousands of times weaker.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'll accept that over them being thousands of times weaker.

Same here. 4-C SSJ2 Gohan and SPC is ludicrous to me, and I don’t like the idea of Kamehameha’s being able to get thousands of times stronger than the user’s physicals when not even self-destructing moves can do that

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

I'm usually the first one to be against downgrades of this kind, and honestly we should settle for Gohan being 1/8th of this value. Super Cell would scale somewhat via harming him with a normal blast. It's the best scenario that will satisfy both sides.

I wouldn’t be opposed to that, but why specifically 1/8th?

 

[Chariot190]

Early db is actually kinda odd, mostly due to Goku having not yet actually trained to properly control his ki, his ki control basically extends to kamehamehas, about it.
Later on in life, Goku can physically amp himself with ki, and is something the whole cast always inherently do.
At that point in DB, even the weakest ki attack would be above a standard punch, which is to say, yeah idk if that's exactly a flawless example. Examples do exist but not so sure about that one.

Secondly, a mere 2x gap in DBZ is enough to dust a mf, sending various examples or showings of "hey [attack] did more damage than [not attack]", isnt exactly an argument. Hell if said attack doesnt outright obliterate them we can safely say there isnt even a 2-3x gap based on how DB establishes stomp gaps, it's just how the verse works. Aka, going "wow a kamehameha crippled this dude, so they CAN be exponentially above the base stats", yeah in a normal verse, but DB is special and thinks Mike Tyson would vaporize you with a punch, let alone cripple you, these huge damage showings arent as big of a jump as one would think.

Thirdly, this doesnt tackle the issue of Gohan's kamehameha being anything but notable, and not even using even half his full power too (Which, we actually can conclude, based on the 17 statement saying one's ki would need to be 2x a foe's to nullify it, which is what Gohan's FP did to Cell's kamehameha that was previously overpowering his, it straight up ate it within 1 panel). Which is to say, Gohan absolutely scales to his dogwater 4-B kamehameha, the full power one would scale above him, but even then only twice over at best if we want to be generous, which something tells me we wont do given itd buff buu saga and instead we'd just go "higher".