vsbattles.fandom.com
vsbattles.fandom.com
Smol, Smol, lolHow big is The Knight from Hollow Knight - final take (?)
Basically there are bosses that deal one mask of damage and ones who do two masks of damage. It's not counted by numbers, it is intentionally made and it even has a specific sound effect for when a hit does double damage. Basically it is very blatantly shown that some bosses or some boss attacks deal 2x damage and that's why some of them scale to 2x AP.
I argued the same thing (which I still believe, for the record).
All of that only indicates that double damage bosses scale above/massively above the single damage ones. The sound effect is there to prove that it was TC's intention to have them be far more powerful, but we can't say it's explicitly 2x because nothing states that it's 2x. It could be 10x for all we know, and they could only not deal 10 masks of damage due to game balance. At this point, I'd be willing to take something like "[this boss] deals two masks of damage, which could possibly indicate that it is twice as powerful as Hornet Sentinel" on their AP section. Just have the 2x AP be listed as "possibly". I've already told you all of this, though, so I doubt you'll budge.
Here's the deal, this is a very blatantly shown thing.
I still don't know what you mean by "no numbers". Most attacks deal one mask; that is a number. Some attacks deal two masks; that is also a number. Just because it doesn't literally say "[this attack] dealt one damage!" and "[this attack] dealt two damage!" doesn't mean that numbers are not involved.
No numbers means that no numbers were shown. It is visually and audibly shown to us that a character deals 2x the amount of damage.
Yes.
Yes.
No. You can't just say "this is clearly a static 2x increase because it's clearly indicated that they deal more damage". That's just nonsense. 4x damage (from Overcharming or Ascended difficulty) has the exact same visual and audible effect. 8x damage (from Overcharming and Ascended difficulty) has the exact same visual and audible effect. You're going to need more than that to prove that the 2x number, in particular, is significant.
First off, that just means 2x should be the baseline.
The point I was making is that, in terms of significance, the game makes no difference between ANY damage multiplier. 2x mask enemies are possibly twice as strong, but the exact same effects would play if they were any times as strong. Maybe the effect would play if they were 1.5x as strong, maybe if they were 1.75x as strong, who knows.
Enemies that deal more than one mask of damage are specifically different in that they are more powerful.
*Seeing us take more than one mask of damage
I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you here, but Pokémon doesn't have "random game numbers thrown in"; it uses "super effective" and "not very effective".
Ah yes, the good old "I'm right and you think I'm wrong, you're an idiot"
Except the evidence points that even if a one damage enemy is canonically above anothe enemy, they still do the normal effect. If someone is above 1 then they won't be equal to one and can be equal to 1.75 or 1.1 or anything. Still, characters with 1 damage who are above their own rating (for example, soul tyrant) don't have the effect. Only 2x damage bosses do.
You're stretching it so far it's unfunny. "Mm yes they blatantly show them dealing specifically 2x damage, gotta be possibly 1.1 or maybe 1.5 damage instead".
Still sets a baseline for minimum upscaling
It has damage, base stats in the pokedex, levels, hp that you lose and more. Since that is based solely on game mechanics and not lore, it isn't used. Here, we clearly see that certain attacks from 1 damage characters do double damage with that type of effect and they're differenriated from normal attacks (column blasts of THK and great slash of Sly) which means they were placed there with intention to show a far more powerful attack that deals double damage.
I am not calling you an idiot. I'm saying that seeing a cow that moos and going "mmm maybe it is a moose or a whale" is what you're doing right now.
That still feels more like a simplified hit point system. It seems more like each mask is 1 HP and every HP counts.
Your point would be valid here if a one-damage enemy was stated to be x times as powerful as another, but that never happens.
Yes. That's exactly my point: the double/quadruple/whatever enemies are above one and could be equal to anything.
Okay. I don't see what that proves. Again, this point would only make sense if Soul Tyrant was stated to be twice as powerful as Soul Master, but he isn't.
Nice strawman. I said that they blatantly show them dealing 2x or 4x or 8x damage, so who knows what the real multiplier is.
There is no definitive multiplier for them to upscale with; that's the problem. 2x isn't definitive because there are other multipliers, and we don't have any proof that mask damage is a multiplier at all apart from "it's important so it is 2x", which is a flawed argument.
Take out the phrase "that deals double damage" at the end, and we agree.
...We can see boss HP decrease by numbers in the code, you can see that in literally every game with HP. Unless you're talking about health bars, though I don't really get what that'd imply either.
Literally this. It's just another hit point system. Those "double damage" visual and audible effects are the same thing as the "super effective" text and audible effect in Pokémon.
In the game you gain the masks by physically acquiring their shards until they fuse together into a mask. Here are the quotes about them
It is shown, which should be valid if it is blatant, which it is.
which is dumb as hell because double damage should be double damage if it is blatantly shown, which, in this case, it very much is.
He is significantly above Soul Master, a more powerful version of him that is fought later in the game. This means that he wouldn't be equal to SM which means he would be above the "1" damage of SM but below "2", which breaks your argument since you're implying double damage is anything above 1, since ST doesn't have the same effects as a double damage boss.
lore backs up masks physically existing and getting added on as layers, thus showing 2 of them breaking at the same time is a direct implication of double damage
nah, i'd multiply
Code. CODE. You literally have to break into the game to see this shit. Meanwhile we are blatantly shown something and you're just ignoring it for the sake of some righteous downplay.
While it sounds slightly better, this is still in line with what our Calc Stacking page says. We do not simply upscale from a character being able to cause twice as much collateral damage. While someone punching a crater calculated at 50 megatons and character B has an attack calculated at 100 Megatons is something each of those individuals could scale from respective feats, if the characters both scaled off of an even better feat, then using these low ends as a multiplier is still considered calc stacking. As is simply KO'ing two objects with durability scaling as opposed to one being used as a 2x multiplier.
what collateral damage???? it is literal damage. This isn't calc A and calc B, this isn't a guy breaking 2 random objects, this is, in a shorter and simpler explanation, the difference between one layer of armor being broken and two layers of armor being broken.
The Knight isn't physically wearing ~12 other masks. Each time a mask breaks in HK, The Knight's own shell cracks and reforms. The masks are absorbed to strengthen The Knight's own shell, hence the above quote.
Is the crack exactly 2x bigger? Because, following your logic, it would be.
Our normal mask also cracks when any of our damage is taken. Also, The Knight starts off with five masks, but has no masks in their inventory. Funny that.
Your only argument is that it is blatantly shown. I have provided evidence that it is only blatantly shown that they are more powerful by an unclear amount.
Yes.
No.
I'm implying that double damage is above 1 by an incalculable amount. A double damage boss would be more powerful than Soul Tyrant, yes. For all we know, maybe ST is 2x and double damage bosses are 4x.
Here, let me try this:
Sorry, man, but if you keep saying the same things, I'll have to keep saying the same things back.
I would love for HK to be higher. The problem is that you're ignoring logic and stubbornly spouting the same flawed points over and over again because you want HK to be higher, whereas I'm willing to argue against that sort of thing because I know, eventually, someone will throw out all of the calcs and values made based on the 2x assumption, and I just want to rip the bandage off before it affects the entire verse.
Sure, they strengthen them, and then we see how much of those layers of strengthening are broken. These are physical objects integrated into us. Also I'd like to ask where the heck is the shell cracking thing coming from? What we see when he gets hit is a cracking visual effect around him, which is what it is, a visual effect, and then we see a few bits of void leak out. We never see physical damage on the mask until the very last hit, which supports my idea of the layers of defense cracking under the attacks.
It is a visual effect used to signify that it was a significantly stronger crack. I am using a visual effect + sound + lore stuff to explain that what happens when the Knight gets hit is he takes damage to the mask, not that somehow the Knight gets a crack in him that is, you know, like 4 times bigger than him on the screen.
Prove it. It only visually cracks when we die.
I am not arguing that each mask is a multiplier, I am arguing that breaking 2 of these masks in one hit warrants a multiplier. The fact that he has a natural mask on his face to cover the void just means that that face is by itself as tanky as 5 added on masks.
You have provided nothing but "nuh-uh, it could be anything". That's basically your entire argument, nitpick my arguments and say "nah" everytime. You haven't actually countered the Soul Tyrant point that completely breaks the logic of what you're suggesting either.
You are contradicting yourself then. According to what you just said, Soul master is somehow above 2 then? If SM is 1 and ST is above 1, and ST cannot deal double damage, meaning he isn't equal to 2. Thus he is an unknown amount between 1 and 2. What you're arguing for is that 2x damage is an arbitrary number above 1x damage that we don't know. By vsbattles standards it would be equal to being between 1 and 2. So by this logic a boss that cannot deal dual damage is equal to a boss that can do so and they all never scale to 2 because...something something we don't know, it's game mechanics, its totally the same as breaking the game code open to see damage...lol?
Which means a baseline of 2x is perfect since we already know they are super powerful.
Logic? You're talking to me about logic?? After you say shit like
you dare speak to me about being logical?
When The Knight absorbs physical objects, they cease to be physical objects, otherwise, The Knight would be fusing with them. If The Knight's main mask isn't broken when they are hit (which it isn't, but I'll get to that in a moment), then nothing is breaking when they get hit because the other masks do not exist as masks, they're just a representation of the health of The Knight's shell. And again, The Knight starts off with five masks of health despite not collecting any masks, which indicates that it's nothing more than a glorified HP bar.
I looked back and you're right about that. My bad.
They aren't literal masks, at least, not once The Knight has absorbed them. The enemies don't actually break anything, they just damage The Knight's mask. The collected masks don't even matter because they may as well not exist, it's just the shell getting stronger. How much more does Failed Champion damage that The Knight's real mask and shell than False Knight? Who knows, because the only indicator we have is one of objects that don't exist, which uses sound and visual effects that are the exact same for any amount of masks broken that isn't one.
I have provided the argument "it could be anything above 1x because 2x, 4x, and 8x have the same indicators meaning that Team Cherry only intended the effect to show attacks that are more powerful by some amount, not specifically 2x". That's more logical than "nuh-uh". Just to clarify: your argument is based on special effects occurring upon taking two masks of damage. My argument is that the very same effect occurs upon taking four or eight masks of damage as well, making the exact multiplier for damage unclear. Those are our core statements here.
I'd be willing to compromise "possibly/likely at least 2x". But it's not 100% certain. Not that it really matters, because they're 9-A regardless.
Soul Master (Single damage boss)<Soul Tyrant (Single damage boss)<Double damage boss. Double damage could be anything above one, yes. Soul Tyrant is also between Soul Master and double damage. Maybe Soul Tyrant is 1.3x and double damage is 1.7x, we just don't know. Soul Tyrant doesn't break my logic because it doesn't really support any specific value, which was my point: double damage isn't any specific value.
He is an unknown amount between 1x damage and an unknown multiplier of damage.
Assuming by damage, you're referring to in-game damage and not VsBattles AP, yes.
By VsBattles standards it would be between 1 and X, aka: literally anything above 1.
I mean, some might be. Failed Champion and Soul Tyrant are two Dream bugs but the latter had a bunch of SOUL power at base and the other was one of the weakest types of bugs in Hallownest, so who knows, maybe they are equal. Some single damage bugs are more powerful than others; some double damage bugs are more powerful than others.
If you notice, I didn't respond to you retorting about the code because I realized that I misunderstood and edited my comment while you were making yours. That side-point was in no way integral to my argument as a whole, regardless.
Yeah. That's pretty logical. Varying multipliers having the same indicators, and those indicators proving why 2x in particular is sound are two contradictory statements. Varying multiplier have the same indicators; that is provable fact. You are deliberately ignoring this fact, which is illogical.
Which can be explained through game mechanics
And the exact thing is shown regardless of how many masks of damage above one are dealt
The masks are not physical, they represent the durability of The Knight's shell
By an unclear amount
Probably, but not for certain
I'm sorry, what site are you on again? This is VsBattles, of course I'm using their rules here.
That seems like headcanon actually
This seems like more headcannon and pure ignorance of something that is stated, that what he gathers are masks that people put on for defense and that can be clearly taken off.
ok
Which we don't see until he dies, which makes no sense.
Which means that making it a baseline of 2 has 0 reason to not exist. Just because we don't know how much exactly doesn't mean we can just ignore it and say "higher". Who knows? We know. We know very well.
Your core argument makes 0 sense since you are stating the multipliers that are shown to us and then saying "nope, could be 1.2 or sth". My argument isn't based on special effects occuring. It is based on the fact that 1 and 2 damage are clearly differentiated and 2 damage has more impact. Then there's the second part of the argument that the masks are actual physical things.
I'll consider
It's kinda funny how you have to take so many logic leaps just to avoid admitting that 2x damage is at least 2x damage. It's all based on arbitrary numbers when the most basic thing is just saying 2 is 2. That's it. Instead we go "well MAYBE they are actually 1.342352 and ST is 1.354590345" like bruh, seriously, what's the point.
Which is still just a way to avoid the obvious.
Nah, it would be almost fully disregarded in a versus battle. If we have 2 characters with the same AP it'd matter but if The Knight gets put against a character with 2x AP, the 2x AP guy will be said to have an advantage whether you like it or not.
And yet again, an evasion. You are evading the simple idea that maybe, just maybe, Failed Champion uses his strength to do 2x damage and ST uses his loads of SOUL to teleport faster and shoot more attacks
I didn't notice
You're still on about the indicators but the whole point of the indicators it to show that it is something acknowledged in the game rather than a random number appearing on the screen on hit like they do in JRPGs for example. My point is that they are acknowledged in the game, they are physically acknowledged and ignoring it by calling it game mechanics is dumb.
If you ignore everything I've just said that is
Doesn't change the fact that the baseline should be 2x damage
Which contradicts the stated lore and is headcanon
It's shown to be 2x
Not for certain my ass, they show it very damn blatantly.
If you give up actual logic for vsbw logic then there's no point in arguing at all. Rules can be changed, they can be argued with here.
That wouldn't work with anyone since nobody would take the 2x seriously in any vs thread.
Then where are the 7+ additional masks that The Knight wears? Either it's physical masks, in which case The Knight would be physically wearing them and we'd have to discard the notion of "strengthening the bearer's shell" , or the masks make the shell more vulnerable and then vanish, which would only make sense if they were absorbed, much like how The Knight absorbs SOUL. Also, The Knight cannot take off masks. They can be under bindings that lessen their durability, but they don't take off the masks that they gain.
*Which only makes sense if the masks cease to be physical once The Knight absorbs them
That's exactly what I'm getting at. Logically, yes, double damage enemies are PROBABLY 2x base ones. VsB avoids "probably"'s like the plague, however. I was unaware that you were trying to change how VsBattle views inferred feats, so I'll leave you to it.
Most VsB people aren't going to take the 2x seriously regardless even if it does get accepted.
Think layers instead of literal masks. To make something stronger you'd need to make it thicker. If you add a layer of thickness to an already thick mask you get even more defense.
I think this is explained as I have explained it, the fuse with the mask to make a layer. When he gets hit, a layer shatters. Until the last layer, the mask stands but then you get hit and your masks shatters fully. That's why we get the shatter effect but we don't see any actual cracks, only a layer got damaged.
It doesn't, since we only see his mask crack at the very end and never before. If it has several layers then it makes sense it'd crack at the very end.
I simply want to squeeze through the tight path that VSBW multipliers make for us. I want to argue with you, specifically you, using logic, not vsbw logic. Before rules apply we need to understand what makes sense and not what is right according to a rule some nerd made like 8 years ago
They will actually, if it gets applied. It would mean anyone with an accepted multiplier here would indeed have that AP and the only way to change it is to make a debunk CRT, which I want to make sure won't happen.
It's fine, I def got heated myself. I keep telling myself I won't take these arguments as seriously, and then I do. A lot of this comes from my own frustration as someone supporting FNAF in VsB, so I get it. I think we're both on the same page in terms of logic: the double mask stuff should be a 2x multiplier. I just don't see VsB accepting that sort of logic, which I fully encourage you to go against. I don't have the mental energy to get in anymore debates, so I'll probably leave it to you. No hard feelings here
Ok, I'll do my best mate, cheers.
I probably will in a bit
I argue that the fodder with that attack level are to be simply dismissed. Fodder are fodder and in lore they are nothing compared to bosses. Just as a reference, it takes us three hits to kill one husk usually at the beginning of the game and then False Knight obliterates every husk on the floor he is in by just jumping down on them.
I'd look through the long, long argument Arceus and I had. Also, double damage enemies would just be especially stronger than/possibly 2x as strong as single damage enemies. Single damage bosses would still be above double damage enemies.
