A standard Issue for One Piece Speed

[Dark_Soul20189]

I am not well knowledgeable in either calculations or speed ratings, but I have noticed a common trend for One Piece Speed ratings. This is that the "reaction speed calc's" doesn't just count for "reaction speed" but instead is counted as "overall speed", and these ratings are then used for chain scaling other characters.

Here is a prime example, Zala is Massively Hypersonic from this calc, that just happened to be a "reaction feat". This feat also counts as her "full speed scaling instead of just reaction speed on her profile," and this in turn leads to Nami scaling of her to a calc that supposedly only gives reaction speed.

Another example is Luffy Pre-timeskip, with these two reaction speed calls scaling his flat-out speed rating.

Then the biggest one of them all is this calc, It again, fully scales Sanji's speed rating, but this is another issue, since this is the highest calc we have and basically scales all superior characters to it... This includes characters like Marco, and everyone else as mentioned by this.

The highest FTL characters are scaled to Sanji's calc (1.35c)

From what I have noticed on the profiles, it seems like this is true for practically all profiles, meaning loads of profiles have their "speed rating" gained from a "reaction speed" calc or chained scaled from one.

TLTR - The speed calc are given full speed rating instead of just reaction speed, creating a large issue with chain scaling.

Proposal - We need to start discussing how to deal/fix this issue.



Due to the complication of this CRT, I have decided to split it up, with the first topic being Zala's calc (Discussion 1)

The Feat can only count as a reaction speed feat - @KingTempest (Though believes it can still be used to scale combat speed), @Duedate8898,
The Feat should be nuked entirely - @Damage3245, @FinePoint,
It should stay the same -
Neutral -

(Note - Please read the arguments and the discussion on the thread before voting)


Notes
*Only "attacking speed has a separate rating on profiles, with them either being "lightning or light attacks"
*I am posting this in QnA since I have no idea how this will turn out.
*Added more example at the request of @Nierre

 

[FinePoint]

I have moved this to Content Revision since it's pointing out a supposed issue with the existing scaling.

I can see in the calc that they include her head movement and count that as combat speed.

I'm not sure if that's proper, but I would lean towards not.
You should ask a calc group member to comment on this thread.
The one who approved it is retired.

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, this is definitely a "reaction speed" feat, even if the calc is correct and valid.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I have moved this to Content Revision since it's pointing out a supposed issue with the existing scaling.

Alright

I can see in the calc that they include her head movement and count that as combat speed.

May I question why it counts as Combat speed? (Just curious)

I'm not sure if that's proper. You should ask a calc group member to comment on this thread.
The one who approved it is retired.

I am not questioning the calc, as mentioned, it's just an example. The issue I have it that calls like this one are being used for a flat-out speed rating, I could have more or less used any calc for it.

I have though, asked a calc member to check it out.

 

[Nierre]

I was requested to comment here.

I do agree with this calc in particular, but if this is a "Standard issue", you should probably link more than just one calc that showcase this issue rather than just one.

 

[FinePoint]

Alright


May I question why it counts as Combat speed? (Just curious)

I don't think it does, personally.

Even if it technically requires you to move your muscles that fast, I think it's obviously tied to them reacting rather than moving or fighting.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I was requested to comment here.

I do agree with this calc in particular, but if this is a "Standard issue", you should probably link more than just one calc that showcase this issue rather than just one.

I did add more examples.

 

[That_moron2]

Following, what would they scale to if this is passed?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Following, what would they scale to if this is passed?

I have no idea, that's why I originally posted it in QnA so we can discuss it here, and then lead we either discuss the new ratings here, or do that in a new CRT.

 

[FinePoint]

I have no idea, that's why I originally posted it in QnA so we can discuss it here, and then lead we either discuss the new ratings here, or do that in a new CRT.

If zero knowledgeable members step forward to point towards the next best feat, then we could simply change it to unknown, since the current one is invalid.

Obviously that would be far from ideal, so I would suggest messaging people listed as supporters of the verse to comment here on it.

 

[That_moron2]

I have no idea, that's why I originally posted it in QnA so we can discuss it here, and then lead we either discuss the new ratings here, or do that in a new CRT.

This maybe?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

If zero knowledgeable members step forward to point towards the next best feat, then we could simply change it to unknown, since the current one is invalid.

Obviously that would be far from ideal, so I would suggest messaging people listed as supporters of the verse to comment here on it.

That's just what I am doing (sending a message to all knowledgeable people, and all people that I think are knowledgeable on the subject that are online.)

 

[Nierre]

Following, what would they scale to if this is passed?

This maybe?

It's not that the calcs are invalid (since they were all accepted), it seems that according to the OP, these calcs scale to the characters' reaction speed.

If a character blitzes or overcomes said reactions then characters can still scale from there.

So it's not about finding a new calc but moreso accurately depicting how characters scale to the feats.

 

[That_moron2]

If a character blitzes or overcomes said reactions then characters can still scale from there.

Nobody has ever blitzed Sanji or anything like that iirc

 

[DMUA]

I think in general people don't feel that strongly about a reactions/combat speed split, beyond just One Piece. When I refreshed myself on the exact rules and it being specifically for single movements, I really just thought to myself "isn't this what people do in a fight?" I get the point of it, someone who's able to react to something extreme can't strictly wavedash all over the field at that velocity or even keep up in a prolonged encounter, but that distinction being made in fiction isn't something I can think of specific examples of

All that is to overelaborate on saying "yeah this seems like a bunch of reaction feats, do what you will with that"

 

[Damage3245]

The simplest way to resolve it would be to figure out the scaling chains. Who're all the characters that scale to the MHS calc for example. Once you know who you're working with, it's easier to find a replacement if need be.

I can draft up some scaling chains for that tomorrow if required.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

The simplest way to resolve it would be to figure out the scaling chains. Who're all the characters that scale to the MHS calc for example. Once you know who you're working with, it's easier to find a replacement if need be.

Fully agreed.

I can draft up some scaling chains for that tomorrow if required.

That would be extremely helpful and appreciated.

 

[That_moron2]

I think the best way to replace that calc would just be to upscale them from the currently used East Blue calc

 

[That_moron2]

Is this the highest non-reaction feat we have?

 

[KingTempest]

So y’all just gon ignore DMUA

Combat nd reaction don’t got a big split because ppl fight at the same speed they can react at, which is why ppl get tagged in fights and such

 

[That_moron2]

Combat nd reaction don’t got a big split because ppl fight at the same speed they can react at, which is why ppl get tagged in fights and such

This is true

 

[FinePoint]

So y’all just gon ignore DMUA

Combat nd reaction don’t got a big split because ppl fight at the same speed they can react at, which is why ppl get tagged in fights and such

Well the speed is just for moving their head.
To me that's very similar to just moving their eyes.

I'm not sure how much I'd trust extrapolating that to how fast they can punch,kick,dodge, etc.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm fine with the speed examples listed applying to combat/Reaction speed and not something like movement.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Combat nd reaction don’t got a big split because ppl fight at the same speed they can react at, which is why ppl get tagged in fights and such

Not gonna lie, To me it seemed like DMUA thinks it's just a reaction speed feat with I quote.

All that is to overelaborate on saying "yeah this seems like a bunch of reaction feats, do what you will with that"

So yeah, I don't understand how you take this as him believing it's also combat speed?

To elaborate a bit more, it seemed like DMUA is more talking that most people don't see a difference between reaction and combat speed, but still fully agrees these are only reaction speed feats.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Yeah, Looks like the reaction feat to me.

 

[Furina003]

In my opinion, in Sanji case it is not reaction speed but it can be said to be combat speed, because at that time Sanji was in a fighting condition, and when he avoided an attack he moved his whole body and moved, while reaction speed only moved a little of his body parts to avoid attacks such as hands, head and so on, and from this case we should also be able to conclude that Sanji will fight at the same speed

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

In my opinion, in Sanji case it is not reaction speed but it can be said to be combat speed, because at that time Sanji was in a fighting condition, and when he avoided an attack he moved his whole body and moved, while reaction speed only moved a little of his body parts to avoid attacks such as hands, head and so on, and from this case we should also be able to conclude that Sanji will fight at the same speed

I don't see how this is anything but a reaction feat, he dodges a lazar, and tries to avoid the explosion. If this is not a reaction feat, I don't know what is.
Nothing proves larger movements to be a debunking of it being only a reaction speed feat. Also, how did you come to the conclusion that Sanji can normally move and fight at the same speed? We literally see him throw himself away from the explosion.

 

[Furina003]

I don't see how this is anything but a reaction feat, he dodges a lazar, and tries to avoid the explosion. If this is not a reaction feat, I don't know what is.
Nothing proves larger movements to be a debunking of it being only a reaction speed feat. Also, how did you come to the conclusion that Sanji can normally move and fight at the same speed? We literally see him throw himself away from the explosion.

he dodged the laser by moving his whole body and actually moving, doesn't sanji also fight with the same method? does he fight without moving his whole body? i don't think that's possible.

i mean, if someone dodges bullets by flying, can we only consider that reaction speed? I think, obviously not, the person should also get flight speed from what he does

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

he dodged the laser by moving his whole body and actually moving, doesn't sanji also fight with the same method? does he fight without moving his whole body? i don't think that's possible.

i mean, if someone dodges bullets by flying, can we only consider that reaction speed? I think, obviously not, the person should also get flight speed from what he does

Dude... Did you even read the reaction speed section on the speed page? It's legit one of the examples...

Reaction Speed​

Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed.

For example, let's say that character A shoots at character B with a gun and character B dodges. That is reaction speed. Keep in mind, sometimes a person aim dodges and it is not as good of a feat.

As another example, let's say that character A uses a minigun on character B, but the minigun takes a second or two to charge up and Character B sees this. If Character B dodges it is considered aim dodging since he/she knew that the attack was going to happen.

Reaction speed is reacting to an attack that you don't know is going to happen, or at a very close range. The reaction speed of a character also tends to be higher than their movement speed.

 

[Furina003]

Dude... Did you even read the reaction speed section on the speed page? It's legit one of the examples...

is it not possible for a character to get 2 speed classifications in 1 case?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

is it not possible for a character to get 2 speed classifications in 1 case?

It's possible, but not relevant for the current feats being discussed.

 

[Furina003]

It's possible, but not relevant for the current feats being discussed.

ok, i just said what i think, if sanji can get both, for the reasons i explained before

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

ok, i just said what i think, if sanji can get both, for the reasons i explained before

It doesn't work like that, since the feat/calc in question is a perfect example of a Reaction speed feat. If you have more questions, hit up my message wall so we don't clutter this thread up.

 

[FinePoint]

If what Dark_Soul is telling me on Discord is true, this verse seemingly has a lot of issues with speed scaling, and I would consider this one of them.
DMUA aside, it seems like a lot of staff here seem to share the opinion that this shouldn't be used for scaling speed in general, but rather just reaction speed and maybe combat speed.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I am not well knowledgeable in either calculations or speed ratings, but I have noticed a common trend for One Piece Speed ratings. This is that the "reaction speed calc's" doesn't just count for "reaction speed" but instead is counted as "overall speed", and these ratings are then used for chain scaling other characters.

They are not counted as "overall speed", they're counted only as combat speed. That's for every verse

Another example is Luffy Pre-timeskip, with these two reaction speed calls scaling his flat-out speed rating.

These are short movements speed calcs

Then the biggest one of them all is this calc

This also isn't reaction speeds, Sanji is making multiple movements in that timeframe which would be counted as their combat speed

*Only "attacking speed has a separate rating on profiles, with them either being "lightning or light attacks"

The most used and common is combat speed, which is movements in short distances and how fast they are fighting. Then we have travel speed (which is traveling far distances), then it's attack speed which is only the speed of how fast the attack/attack technique is.

When it comes to the Zala calculation, the calculation is about how fast she's physically moving her head casually... Something that would be slower than her physical attacks which Nami is able to consistently avoid and scale to combat wise

 

[Nierre]

Most speeds on profiles are just combat/reaction speed as Monkey said


But anyway, like Damage said the scaling chains need to be written out more cleanly, cause from what I'm seeing there's some circular scaling:

Exoskeleton Sanji's reactions/speed (1.35c) ~ Hybrid Queen (Could tag Exoskeleton Sanji)

But then when you go to Sanji's page, base Sanji scales to that same value for defending against Hybrid Queen's attacks, yet Sanji's profile says that Exoskeleton is "far higher" than his base and Diable Jambe speed amps.

Which means to me that Exoskeleton probably isn't a speed amp without using enhanced speed? With hardly any scans and no references it's hard to cross-reference the scaling

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

But then when you go to Sanji's page, base Sanji scales to that same value for defending against Hybrid Queen's attacks, yet Sanji's profile says that Exoskeleton is "far higher" than his base and Diable Jambe speed amps.

Which means to me that Exoskeleton probably isn't a speed amp without using enhanced speed? With hardly any scans and no references it's hard to cross-reference the scaling

Yee... Idk what that's about

Since when did exoskeleton Amp his speed?

The issue with one piece isn't speed but scans and accurate explanations it seems

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Most speeds on profiles are just combat/reaction speed as Monkey said


But anyway, like Damage said the scaling chains need to be written out more cleanly, cause from what I'm seeing there's some circular scaling:

Exoskeleton Sanji's reactions/speed (1.35c) ~ Hybrid Queen (Could tag Exoskeleton Sanji)

But then when you go to Sanji's page, base Sanji scales to that same value for defending against Hybrid Queen's attacks, yet Sanji's profile says that Exoskeleton is "far higher" than his base and Diable Jambe speed amps.

Which means to me that Exoskeleton probably isn't a speed amp without using enhanced speed? With hardly any scans and no references it's hard to cross-reference the scaling

Yeah, pretty much all characters and scaling chains are circular and end up with one of these reaction speeds at the start. I didn't wanna mention it due to the possibility of heated debates, until after they were mentioned by @Damage3245, and that is with ignoring the fact that some profiles' scaling is even wackier, for example, Kizaru's.

Kizaru's speed scaling is wanky, Not only does he somehow have a higher Base speed than in his light form, but he is also somehow faster than SoL due to this comment "Acceleration... is Power", while we have constant statements of him being SoL, do I even need to comment how wanky that is? Not to mention his apparent SoL blitz he did at recent egghead, where no one knew who feed Luffy food, when most of them should have been FTL in perception speed (or other speed according to their profiles) And was reveled to us in SAS 110 to be done at the speed of light. (YouTube link as proof) So yeah...

If you want I can give some more examples for round scaling if you want?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I think someone might've edited it incorrectly?

Since this is how it was before, so someone should fix that... It seems kachon added that, so we should ask him first

 

[Nierre]

Kizaru's speed scaling is wanky, Not only does he somehow have a higher Base speed than in his light form, but he is also somehow faster than SoL due to this comment "Acceleration... is Power", while we have constant statements of him being SoL, do I even need to comment how wanky that is? Not to mention his apparent SoL blitz he did at recent egghead, where no one knew who feed Luffy food, when most of them should have been FTL in perception speed (or other speed according to their profiles) And was reveled to us in SAS 110 to be done at the speed of light. (YouTube link as proof) So yeah...

i mean i don't disagree but that's probably a bigger issue than the scope of this thread.. maybe