About Fujitora's meteors

[The_Calaca]

Okay, this again. This has been discussed many times during the latest times that we have agreed to make this the (hopefully) last one.

So, Issho (Admiral Fujitora) has the power to attract meteors. His strongest feat comes from this meteor. It's currently calced at 13 GT but don't pay attention to it because the future revisions of the planet and the island will probably change the result (again).

The discussion comes from whether or not the characters should scale to Fujitora's meteors and while most of the people agree, Damage3245 have problems with it.

• We have statements regarding two Devil Fruits being more powerful than Fujitora:
  • Shirohige's fruit is stated to be the most powerful Paramecia in terms of Destructive Capability, which is the same kind of power Issho's fruit has. This works the same way. Shirohige doesn't have a Quake Quake fruit being objectives. His fruit lets him generates vibrations which can crack the air and generates tsunamis and earthquakes and while the fruit is called Tremor-Tremor in the translation, the actual effects of the fruit are caused by the air cracking. In this case the effect is the vibrations and the side effect are the earthquakes and we still scale Shirohige to his own earthquakes.
  • Sakazuki (Admiral Akainu) is stated by WoG to have the most powerful fruit in terms of offensive potency.
    • This is supported by the fact that Fujitora's meteors are summoned via Devil Fruit, and while the statement about Shirohige's fruit is very old, the Databook where it's stated the data about Sakazuki's isn't.

• Currently there's no contradiction in the scaling regarding the 6-C. Kaido is scaling to Zunisha (One Piece)'s 28 Gigatons feat and with him, many other Top Tiers as the Yonko for reasons that are no worthy of being mentioned in this thread since it has been discussed already in the revisions. This will likely change in the future with new feats or re-calcs but as it is right now, it makes no sense. This is the weakest argument and it shouldn't be as considered as the others.

• With the current scaling Fujitora has the second (actually third) strongest attack of the series but with the revisions this might change in the future. This represents a problem because that puts Fujitora as the indisputed God Tier of the verse (like when the verse was High 6-C). This represents a problem for the following reason: With that amount of power, Fujitora should be able to kill everyone in the series, making a plothole about him not killing the Yonko with his meteors. The current marine leader isn't someone who'd waste the opportunity if he has the chance to kill every pirate from existence. With the amount of plotholes and statements coming from WoG this shouldn't be like that.

• The feat is casual. Very casual to be fair. Issho didn't cared about the meteor, even with the possibility of being hit by it.

• Most of the people who scales to this is the Top/God Tier of the verse.

So there's three options:

• We scale characters to Fujitora's meteors.

• We don't scale them.

• We add a "Possibly" for characters that should scale after the rating. I.e. X character is High 7-A, possibly 6-C.

Note: Staff Only

 

[Antvasima]

I think that all the strongest characters should scale to Fujitora's meteorites.

 

[Damage3245]

To explain why I think the best option would be to not scale this calc to other characters I want to address the main arguments for scaling beyond 'common sense' and only top-tiers scaling to it:

1) Other Devil Fruits are superior to Fujitora's DF.

2) If Fujitora was this powerful, there would be massive PIS due to him supposedly being able to one-shot every other characters.

I think both of these arguments are pretty flawed and not a reasonable basis for scaling characters to the meteor feat.

As I have explained in other threads, the 13 Gigaton calc is for the kinetic energy of the meteor hitting the ground. Not the amount of energy required to pull the meteor into the gravitational field of the planet; therefore Fujitora is not releasing 13 Gigatons of energy to cause the feat to happen. Simply put; Fujitora's own DF does not scale to the calc.

The 13 Gigatons is a result of the meteor accelerating over time to crash into the ground. If the meteor had a lot more time to travel it would have an higher end result; reaching up to Country level or Continent level theoretically.

So it is impossible to say that Fujitora himself is capable of 13 Gigaton level attacks. Therefore there is no discrepancy of Fujitora supposedly being the most powerful character of the verse; because he isn't. The meteor calc doesn't support that.

If you push a boulder off of a cliff and it falls and crushes someone; you do not scale to Wall level, and nobody superior to you does either.

As for the argument that Fujitora would somehow just kill everyone in the verse; this is laughable. We have two cases of Fujitora using meteors in combat; both of these attempts failed for different reasons. And we have another offscreen fight between him and Jack. If the argument was 'Fujitora is so powerful he would kill any other character' then this is clearly proven false as Jack survived the encounter.

I don't want to ramble for too long so here are my two main points:

1) The meteor calc is not Fujitora's Attack Potency. Other Devil Fruits cannot scale to it.

2) There is no proof Fujitora would one-shot everyone in the verse apart from assumptions.

 

[Antvasima]

If Whitebeard and Akainu are explicitly stated to have the most powerful devil fruits, I think that they and similarly powerful characters should scale.

 

[Damage3245]

If Whitebeard and Akainu are explicitly stated to have the most powerful devil fruits, I think that they and similarly powerful characters should scale.

The problem is that Fujitora's DF by itself is not that powerful.

We have a few calcs from his direct gravity attacks and they're below Island level.

The meteors - while pulled down by Fujitora releasing gravity - doesn't mean that Fujitora's gravity becomes 13 gigatons. His fruit does not have to be Island level to pull down those meteors.

Therefore Fujitora's own rating would not scale to the meteor calc, and nobody with superior Devil Fruits like Whitebeard or Akainu would scale either.

 

[Antvasima]

I find your rationale too reaching and uncharitable. Our conventional standards are to scale explicitly more powerful characters for the feats of less powerful characters, and we should do the same here.

 

[Damage3245]

But you're not specifically scaling them to the feat (like you would be if for example Kaido blocked one of the meteors) you're scaling them to the Devil Fruit and based on everything I've seen Fujitora's DF is not Island level.

The meteors have kinetic energy by accelerating over time to land on the planet's surface; the end kinetic energy is not Fujitora's power or the power of his DF.

So using the statements up above to say Whitebeard and Akainu are superior to the meteors is based on faulty reasoning.

 

[Antvasima]

I disagree. One Piece is an "authority equals a$$kicking" type of manga. It would make no sense for Fujitora to have a stronger attack in his arsenal than characters explicitly considerably above him.

 

[Damage3245]

Fujitora's extremely specific attack is dependant on a few variables and isn't a guarantee of success.

Assuming he has a large enough meteor available above him, and he has time to drag it down using gravity, it still isn't an instant-win solution.

Doflamingo's Birdcage managed to slice several meteors to pieces.

Law and Doflamingo could both slice a smaller meteor to pieces too, and Law could redirect them using his DF.

And as we've seen he seemingly didn't use meteors to stomp Jack and his Beast pirates when they attacked the Marine convoy.

So I don't see the problem for Fujitora to have a situational environmental destruction attack that is higher than other characters when it has been proven they aren't an instant-win solution.

If in the future Kaido or Big Mom overpower an Island level meteor from Fujitora then I will completely reverse my position and support upgrades; but right now I think it is way too speculative.

Also; if Fujitora is at least Mountain level himself, all Akainu needs is to be higher than Mountain level to be superior to Fujitora.

 

[Damage3245]

My current proposal for Fuji's rating:

Fujitora: Mountain level (Has a casual City level+ calc and is shown to be comparable to Law/Doffy), up to Island level with meteors (Based on Fujitora's largest shown meteor)

Based on all the information we have I think this makes the most sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still completely disagree with you, but am open to further staff input.

 

[Damage3245]

Also; I'd like to note that if we go with the Zunisha-Kaido scaling, then Whitebeard and Akainu would most likely scale above the meteors anyway.

So your objection of 'these characters should be more powerful' doesn't hold up. They'd just have their 6-C / Likely 6-C ratings for different reasons.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if they would retain their 6-C ratings, I am more open to compromise.

 

[Damage3245]

The specific ratings aren't fully settled, but there was talk of Prime Whitebeard and Kaido being 6-C, and several of the others being Likely 6-C based on scaling.

But assuming they are 6-C / Likely 6-C, I take it you have fewer objections which is good.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still think that they should be able to survive any attack from Fujitora, but I am less opposed currently.

 

[The_Calaca]

I'm going to adress some points because we have been discussing this for months so I'll sum it up.

The meteor is the same as Newgate's quakes. It's a side-effect of his fruit, which makes him vibrate violently.

As Ant said, we do scale characters to this kind of feats.

If you're going to use Jack as an argument I could say that he should scale to plain 6-C instead of saying that he survived because Fujitora isn't that powerful.

You was the one who said that the Birdcage doesn't need to be 6-C to slice the meteors. You even revised that feat few weeks ago, so using this point in your favor is non-sensical.

Same with Doffy and Law cutting the meteors. Those were weaker versions and we can't assume that they could do the same with the biggest. But going by powerscaling, is highly possible.

Dude, you said that Issho vs Jack was off-screen and now you say that he apparently didn't used the meteors. Based on what? You cannot bring this kind of arguments that severely contradicts you.

It's not ED tho. He uses it for combat purposes. This is not like some kind of storm feat that happens over time and doesn't directly affect the enemy.

Using the current ratings is also non-sensical. I've told you in the MW that the ratings are subject to change so it doesn't matter if Sakazuki just need to be a little above Mountain level.

We're not discussing Fujitora's rating. That will come once this discussion is settled.

If the numbers change, and is highly possible that they will, Zunisha might be irrelevant in the future. That's why this thread is necessary, and the "Likely" would be in order even if the feat i 6-C+.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Calaca.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask the other staff members listed in the One Piece verse page to comment here if you wish.

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca;

My point regarding Birdcage is that you don't need to be as powerful as the meteors to survive fighting Fujitora.

Regarding Jack; all I'm saying is that there is some kind of assumption that if Fujitora had 6-C meteors and people didn't scale to them that he would one-shot the verse. Jack was not one-shot by Fujitora, so that's a point against it.

> The meteor is the same as Newgate's quakes. It's a side-effect of his fruit, which makes him vibrate violently.

Whitebeard's fruit doesn't just make himself vibrate; it allows him to create vibrations / earthquakes. Oda's comment in the SBS mentions that he creates the Earthquakes.

Fujitora doesn't create the meteors, he just pulls them down which isn't 6-C.

It feels like you and I are arguing on two different topics here.

Do you believe that Fujitora's DF is 6-C and that Sabo and Luffy's base durability should be 6-C? Both of them were hit directly by Fuji's gravity attacks.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Ant

I will.

@Damage

The Birdcage is something special since it's a slashing attack. If X character gets the meteor over his head he'll take all the damage coming from the KE. You don't need to be 8-C when slashing to slash a building. We had this conversation with other feat back in Arabasta.

You keep using that fight as an argument despite that you said it was off-screen. Ergo, we cannot use it.

Yeah, he creates the earthquakes, but his power is to generate vibrations. The earthquakes are the after-effect.

 

[Damage3245]

> If X character gets the meteor over his head he'll take all the damage coming from the KE.

If someone has a feat of tanking the meteor, that's something legit that can be used for scaling.

But I don't think the statements support those Devil Fruits being superior to the meteors Fujitora brings down. Fujitora's own power is lower than the KE of the meteors.

If we had a statement like 'Akainu could survive one of Fujitora's meteors' or 'The power of a meteor is inferior to Whitebeard's Quakes', that'd be one thing.

But the statements right now are two vague and don't necessarily cover the meteors.

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with Calaca.

 

[Damage3245]

@Ant; can I ask why specifically?

I have explained how the power of Fujitora's DF doesn't equal the energy of the meteors.

There seems to be extremely little basis for scaling outside of it just feels right.

 

[The_Calaca]

We have WoG supporting it. You're just ignoring them.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not ignoring them; I have addressed that they don't apply because Fujitora's DF is not as powerful as the calced meteors.

The meteors start being pulled down by his Devil Fruit; yes, but that does not make Fujitora or his Devil Fruit 6-C by itself.

 

[Antvasima]

Why wouldn't Fujitora's power be as powerful as the energy of the attacks that he generates?

It seems like very selectively unfavourable treatment to not accept this for One Piece in particular when we tend to go by the generated energy alone for other franchises.

 

[Damage3245]

Because the meteor crashing into the ground isn't an attack Fujitora generates.

Fujitora starts the meteor moving towards the ground; but since the meteor is accelerating due to gravity the initial energy Fujitora had to put into moving it is less than the end result of it hitting the ground.

So; when you see Fujitora sending his gravity beam into the sky to pull on the meteor, there is nothing suggesting that he dumped 13 Gigatons of energy into moving it unless you have proof.

This isn't being unfair towards One Piece; this holds up to every kind of meteor feat.

Look at it like this; if the meteor was only being accelerated over 1 kilometer, the amount of energy when it hits will be a lot lot less than if it hit something after accelerating for 20 kilometers.

 

[The_Calaca]

AFAIK, no, we aren't this strict with meteor feats.

 

[Damage3245]

I could try and illustrate my point using a calc for how much energy Fujitora would need to put into it; but it would take a few assumptions to work I think.

 

[Antvasima]

@Calaca

No, we are not.

 

[Damage3245]

Let me explain it like this;

Dropping a coconut from 1 meter and 100 meters both have the same starting energy / acceleration due to gravity.

However if a coconut lands on your head from 1 meter that hurts a whole lot less than a coconut dropped from 100 meters. The kinetic energy of the latter coconut is much higher, but the initial energy put into moving the coconuts is low.

So Fujitora accelerating a meteor to the ground using gravity doesn't tell you how strong Fujitora's DF is just from the kinetic energy of the meteor hitting the ground.

Basically; the calc only tells you the final energy of the meteor. It doesn't tell you how strong Fujitora's DF is.

 

[The_Calaca]

You keep repeating the same point, but it's a direct result from Issho's DF which isn't even stated to be one of the strongest Paramecia, let alone DF in general.

It makes more sense scaling-wise that Issho hasn't the strongest offensive when it comes to DF.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Calaca.

 

[Damage3245]

The point is this;

Akainu's DF lets him generate magma of a certain heat (energy).

Whitebeard's DF lets him generate vibrations of a certain strength (energy).

Fujitora's DF lets him generate gravity of a certain strength (energy).

You're comparing the meteors to the former two, when you should be comparing the gravity instead.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think scaling to the meteors is fine.

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca; the scaling is completely intact because as I have explained the final kinetic energy of the meteors isn't Fujitora's own power.

Having the strongest DF or not has nothing to do with it.

I'm not sure why you think it being a direct result matters; I explained in the metaphor up above that the kinetic energy could theoretically be way, way higher. Given distance and time, Fujitora could accelerate meteors to nearly lightspeed.

This doesn't make Fujitora himself Planet level.

 

[Damage3245]

Why can't it be accepted that Whitebeard and Akainu have superior Devil Fruits to Fujitora while not directly scaling to the meteors hitting the ground?

Fuji's DF isn't the power of meteors, it's the power of gravity. And as I have explained repeatedly the k.e. of the meteor isn't Fuji's own power.

@Calaca; you do agree that Whitebeard and Akainu most likely already scale above the meteors right? So how exactly is the scaling broken? I'm not even arguing that Fujitora has the greatest offensive power in the series.

 

[The_Calaca]

No, the scaling would change if the value of the meteor changes. The way it is right now it makes sense, but average changes might ruin this illusion.

Since we have no clear ideas on how we should calc the energy Fujitora used to pull down the meteors, then we should scale him to the meteors and therefore the rest of the characters who scales to him.

On top of that there's the possibility that Issho is directly controlling both trajectory and speed but I'll not rely on that because it's an assumption.

>Why can't it be accepted that Whitebeard and Akainu have superior Devil Fruits to Fujitora while not directly scaling to the meteors hitting the ground?

Because it makes no sense scaling wise.

Whitebeard's DF isn't the power of earthquakes, it's the power of vibrations. The earthquakes are the same as the meteors for the DF.

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca; from the SBS;

"I guess that's difficult. The answer is Paramecia. "Gura Gura no Mi" is said to be the most powerful of the many paramecia fruits. It's easy to think that he's an "Earthquake Human" and must be Logia, but if that was so, he'd have to become an earthquake himself. Whitebeard creates earthquakes, in other words he's a "Vibration Human". That means he's a Paramecia who isn't any weaker than the Logias."

Vibration and Quake are pretty much synonymous to Oda. Whitebeard creates seaquakes, earthquakes, airquakes, etc. They're all directly created by him.

The energy of the meteor isn't directly created by Fujitora.

> Because it makes no sense scaling wise.

Can you explain that? Because right now the current scaling is that Akainu's and Whitebeard's DF powers are roughly 6-C, and Fujitora's DF is roughly 7-A.

Scaling Fujitora directly to his meteor and saying 'this is how hard Fujitora hits' is what makes no sense.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Bottom line the site has a clear chart for addressing how much energy a character posseses and converting that into AP for their tier. The stomp tomp fruit's energy is NOT what's ever being measured in any variation of the meteor calc; the meteor it self is. There fore at best it applies to enviromental Destruction but in no way corresponds to the Stomp Stomp fruit, nor any other fruit there after, nor Fugitora himself, or any character to him there after.

Obviously the community can reject the rules/standards set fourth by the site founders because "everyone else agrees/wants this". They can also say the world is flat, the sun moves around the earth, and pigs fly. History tells us majority beleiving something doesn't make it so when they don't apply logic.

So apply it, don't apply it. Its only the credibility of this forum on the line.