About Immunity on profiles

[DontTalk]

We had some time ago a discussio about Invulnerability on profiles.

The problem back then was largely in which cases to give it and if it should be given at all, since Invulnerability is a No-Limits fallacy for everyone except Tier 0 characters.


Invulnerability has a little brother, that is Immunity.

Immunity to Fire Manipulation is synonymous with Invulnerability against Fire Manipulation after all.

So for it the very same question has to be discussed.


All in all I quite simply suggest the same solution as we have decided for Invulnerability.

That is to add a note to the respective page stating that Invulnerability can be given, if it is an official ability of a character in a verse, but will practically only be accepted in the boundarys in which feats for it exist.

The page that is linked to for Immunity is currently the resistance page, as it mentions "Might vary up to immunity to said factor."

So I would suggest including the following text on the page:

"Note that immunity can only be proven in the realms of the power which the character actually was attacked with, except if the character lacks the force that can be manipulated (I.E. A character without a soul would be immune to soul manipulation).

Immunity can be listed if it is an official ability in the verse, but, with the exception of the case of lacking the force that can be manipulated, more powerful manipulation than demonstrated is assumed to be able to harm the characters like usual."


That description contains a second part, which The Everlasting mentioned to me. That is that Immunity can in certain cases be possible if the character simply lacks what the abilty targets.

So for example Soul Manipulation can not be used against something without Soul, Biological Manipulation not be used against something without an organic body (or without physical body at all) etc.


The pros of this solution is that we don't have to change the official description of abilities that are taken as true in the verse, can give credit to it for the characters for which it is an important aspect of their abilities and we don't have to search through all profiles to find every single one that lists Immunity and make changes to them.

At the same time we don't NLF stuff this way. So all in all it is the best solution in my opinion.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I like your idea. But what about a "High Resistance"? It sounds less like an NLF than "Immunity".

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Seems like a good idea.

 

[Ryukama]

Personally I think "Immunity" should only be given in cases mentioned where one doesn't have what the ability targets.

"Immunity to Soul Manipulation" to those who don't have souls and such.

Towards characters who have only no-selled certain powers, they just get "Resistance." Or maybe "High/Massive Resistance" to those that have shown able to especially resist a power.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Agreeing with Dragonmasterxyz, high resistance sounds better than total immunity. Of course, if people are completely lacking a soul or body, I think it's safe to say that they can have immunity.

 

[Reppuzan]

This seems reasonable.

Quick question though, what about abilities that are explicitly stated to grant immunity? For example, Illua from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance A2 has an ability called Impervious, making her immune to all known status effects in the game. I phrased it as being immune to all known status effects in Ivalice, but I changed the power listing to Resistance to avoid claims of NLF.

Would it be alright to change it back?

 

[DontTalk]

Well, instead of high resistance you might as well just change all profiles to just resistance and specify the feats for the degree of it.

Or in other words basically all advantages of solving it through a note are lost.

So you have to search through all pages on the wiki to do the change, for example.


@Reppuzan: In my solution abilities that are explicitely stated to work as immunity, would be mentioned as Immunity (which is the pro of not having to change what the abilities are canonly considered to be), but would in practice (in vs battles) not be considered as without limit, which is what the note states basically.

 

[Ryukama]

Well I thought this was more of a gradual change than any revision.

I'm not against the note, I just think only cases like the soulless person should be listed as immunity to avoid NLF confusion with other users.

However I'm fine with listing other things as immunity as long as there is that note.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

About the Soul Manipulation example.

Arent there some characters who can still use that hax on those who are souless? I remember Digimon characters being in the same boat as this but I can be wrong.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah, adding the note seems fine enough. I agree.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Professor Not sure, how about immunity to conventional soul manipulation? Cause if soul manipulation works on a soul less being, it isn't exactly standard soul manipulation.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Kukui is referring to to Alphamo and Death-Xmo . Death-Xmon literally has no Digicore i.e soul. However, Alphamon was still able to use is Digitalize of Soul on him and seal him away.

EDIT: But of course Celestial's proposition for that works.

 

[Promestein]

This is good with me.

 

[LazyHunter]

I agree with adding the note and treating Immunity like Invulnerability.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

So immunity to abilities is an NFL, and it all depends on the level of the ability used.

I believe I mentioned on another thread that higher level causality manipulation could override acausality.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Laciel

As Promestein described earlier, you're right in that a ridiculously more powerful being should have no problems causality manipulating someone beneath him (i.e. a 5-A vs a Low 2-C), but it would otherwise render them immune to such effects on their level of power.

 

[DontTalk]

^Though the power of causality manipulation doesn't necessarily relate to the AP it demonstrates either, as I might mention.

Either way this is of topic, so if it needs a lot of debate maybe better make a Q&A thread for it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Some characters are indeed immune to certain types of hax on their Dimensional Level.

 

[DontTalk]

^For example? Except for the "lacks the force that can be manipulated" thing the only hax for which I could imagine this possible are those for which logically no priority can exist.

So for example you can be immune to the hax part of Absolute Zero ability, because you can not make something more absolute zero. Though that is technically less immunity to absolute zero than the hax part of absolute zero not setting in, while one is still cooled to absolute zero (well, one could still list it as immunity I suppose).

(Then again you could probably even do a higher priority version of absolute zero... because fiction)

Do you mean something like that?

 

[Gemmysaur]

Agreed with this, and with high resistance.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

But how do we gauge resitance for specific abilities.

For example,

Character X has the mind manipulation to destroy the minds of everyone on an entire planet, and Y reissted it.

vs

Character A used mind manipulation on character B, and character B resisted it.

Character A is a higher tier than X. Who has better mind manipulation resitance, Character Y or B?

 

[Gemmysaur]

B because as you said, A is superior to X. Unless, A was holding back or something.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

But that would lead to things like Rey from starwars having better mind manipulation resitance than someone who can resist Professor X's mind manipulation.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally fine with adding a footnote, as it would mean considerably less work to apply.

 

[Blahblah9755]

For this change would acausality also be treated similarly? Since it's effectively an immunity to changes in causality/the past.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Not with the Absolute Zero discussion again. Fiction can have colds colder than Absolute Zero. Next up and we'll be discussing that no character in fiction is FTL because it is impossible in science.

 

[Fabtastic_Glasses]

How about the case of several characters that have immunities to certain types of attacks but at the same time several characters also have the means to bypass/nullify/outhax it to the point it doesn't feel like immunities anymore ?

 

[DontTalk]

@Matthew: There is a great difference between impossible in science and not well defined. Negative temperatures are the latter, but that wasn't what I wanted to say and as I already explicitly mentioned in the last thread I realize fiction can do that.

Negative Temperatures aren't absolute zero, they are below absolute zero. But an attack being more absolute zero than another is like saying, that my 20┬░C is more 20┬░C than your 20┬░C. Doesn't make much sense, but as noted in parenthesis fiction can technically do that nonsense as well, I guess.