About Mythological Profiles

[Tsubaki_Blue]

Well now, after pondering about this for days, I decided "hey Baki, why don't you just make a thread for this already?" and so now I am.

I know very well from my brother that profiles featuring religious figures are not allowed i.e. no Hanuman profile... However, there are profiles based off mythology. As Matthew has described it to me, it depends on whether or not the religion/mythology is controversial or not.

My question is: Which is which? What is allowed and what isn't allowed?

I know that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism (and it's variants), Buddhism (all it's variants), Gnosticism are not allowed. Too controversial.

But what about Jainism, Taoism, Vedic Religion, Sikhism, Kemetic/Ancient Egyptian Mythology, Bon, Platonism, Pythagoreanism, Sumerian Mythology, Korean Mythology, Zoroastrianism, Mesoamerican Mythology, or just general metaphysics? Are any of these allowed?

Sorry if this has been discussed about repeatedly, I am just very anxious because I have so many ideas for these profiles, and I'm really into mythology and metaphysics. Thanks for taking the time to read this!

 

[The_Everlasting]

Any religions still widely practiced today are not allowed, with the exception of Shintoism, as their religion is more traditional nowadays and they don't actually think their gods are real, IIRC.

 

[Sera_EX]

I second what Everlasting said. Most you listed are not widely practiced anymore, and are quite ancient. But I'd like more input on this, don't wanna get your hopes up too much sis ^_^

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

It's pretty much what Ever said. Any religion that's still around in today's life that are still practiced are not allowed. But the ones that aren't practiced much anymore or just aren't can be.

 

[Tsubaki_Blue]

So, could I make Taoism profiles? It is considered religious, but it is more so philosophical school of thought. How do we describe "widely practiced"? Taoism isn't practiced much outside of Asia.

 

[VenomElite]

Tsubaki, the word "Taoism" is used to translate different Chinese terms which refer to different aspects of the same tradition and semantic field:

"Taoist religion" or the "liturgical" aspect — A family of organized religious movements sharing concepts or terminology from "Taoist philosophy"

"Taoist philosophy" or "Taology" or the "mystical" aspect — The philosophical doctrines based on the texts of the I Ching, the Tao Te Ching, and the Zhuangzi.

I think Taoism should be ok, if they are Chinese Mythology profiles, then Taoism should be allowed considering they intertwine.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well, I think this certainly needs more input. We need to know what is considered "widely practiced" and what is considered a "religion" because one could extensively argue that neither Buddhism nor Hinduism are religions, but ways of life.

It more so has to do with being controversial, rather than simply being a widely practiced religion.

 

[Tsubaki_Blue]

I understand. Obviously a profile about Jesus would be controversial. everyone arguing about his tier etc. But something much less controversial would be, possible to say the least?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why the heck wasn't I called earlier? xD

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So you can look for stuff on your own? xD

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Things I think should be allowed:

• Sumerian Polytheism
• Hellenism
  • Orphism
• Norse Polytheism
• Egyptian Polythism
• Celtic Paganism
  • Arthurian Legends
• Zoroastrism
• Shintoism
• Ancient Tao Polytheism
• Native American Folklore
• Polynesian Folklore
• Mithraism
• Aleister Crowley's Thelema (lol)

And so on. Basically any faith that is not widely practiced today or isn't controversial.

Things that shouldn't be allowed:

• Judeo-Christian Religions (Far too controversial to be featured)
• Islamic Religion (The above but multiplied a thousand-fold)
• Hinduism (As much as I would love to feature it, it is a widely-practiced and literally believed faith)
• Gnosticism (Not practiced today in any significant manner. However, the fact that eldritch horror that is The Demiurge is literally supposed to be the god of the Old-Testament, and the religions' ideas relating to Jesus, Mary Magdalene, Holy Ghost, etc, it can't be used)
• The Buddha (I don't think I need to explain why this shouldn't be here)

 

[-BANLK-]

@Matthew Schroeder What about Hindu demigods (Like Arjuna and Karna etc.) I don't think that would be controversial and nobody even worships them.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Matthew: I think that sounds about right.

 

[Sera_EX]

Yeah, with that said, I am unsure about Jainism. Sorry, Baki.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Matthew. We don't want any death threats, so Islam in particular is not allowed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Mainstream in general should be outlawed, I think. So Abrahamic is out entirely. And while Hinduism is far less controversial and it even has profiles in ACF Wiki, we can't have cause it'd be a severe double standard.

 

[Antvasima]

Yup.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

A member here on the wiki is wanting to make a profile for the Paradise Lost Version of Lucifer, arguing that as it is a work of fiction, it wouldn't count as religion.

I myself am against such a profile, as Paradise Lost is so close to actual Christianity it borders on being a Bible fanfiction.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

As a Christian myself I don't have a problem with a Paradise Lost Lucifer. While the work is Biblically inspired, it is still a work from an author that had no vision or divine inspiration, and is, like Matthew mentioned, fanfiction of a religious text. I may be in the minority of those who wouldn't get offended by it, but as long as feats from the actual source material were not taken into account I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

As for religious figures I do think it may be best to leave them alone. Although this wiki isn't pure fiction (we have many profiles from real life), and thus wouldn't be insinuating that the religions on them are false or fictitious, tier placement and powers would be hugely controversial, as I imagine that people wouldn't want to see the deity they worship be put below some monster like Nyarlathotep. That mixed in with the massive interpretation differences in religious documents makes for a big pile of Nope.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I mean, Paradise Lost is different enough in that it features a whole lot of Classical Mythology fused with Christian Myth.

Chaos, Nyx (Old Night), fully fictional embodiments of Death and Sin, and both the Greek and Egyptian Pantheons all exist in the story... But I am still uncertain.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Everlasting is also against it.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Well, I myself honestly wouldn't mind it (I'm a very hard to offend guy), but I already see the issues that would arise with it.

 

[MorkarBaroque]

if Paradise Lost characters are fabrications of the Bible, with enough differences to be this own thing then it could have a profile, it could even be considered a "Ur Example" if you will.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Exactly. I recently read it in a Literature course and it had mythological characters from Greece and Rome yet incorporated the Judeo-Christian God and Lucifer as primary characters. It is like the MLP meets Sonic of the ancient textual world. It is so far off of Biblical tradition and the Christian/Jewish faith that I don't think it is anything to worry about.

 

[Sera_EX]

The problem with a Paradise Lost Lucifer profile, is that it would cause a backlash between people who want similar profiles, but may or may not be too controversial for this wiki. For example, tales based off Buddhism (not talking about something like Journey to the West either). One could extensively argue over these things and cause a whole lot of ruckus over what is clearly stated in our rules. Tsubaki herself is still waiting to know if Taoism and Jainism are okay.

 

[MorkarBaroque]

Matt, i have a question, is the Devil PL a Cherub? if he isn't then that in my book is a BIG difference on the Bible.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Yog

He's a Seraphim / Archangel (Those are used interchangably)

 

[MorkarBaroque]

my point stands then. (high apologies if this sounds insulting)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But that is minutia and besides the point.

The point is that Paradise Lost is so relevant as Christian Literature that practically everything believers assume about Lucifer / Satan's nature and character comes from it, rather than any canonical text.

It's much like Dante's Inferno, which is fiction, though so influential that it's depictions of Hell, Purgatory and Heaven are now in people's collective minds as canon.

 

[MorkarBaroque]

But that is minutia and besides the point.
The point is that Paradise Lost is so relevant as Christian Literature that practically everything believers assume about Lucifer / Satan's nature and character comes from it, rather than any canonical text.

It's much like Dante's Inferno, which is fiction, though so influential that it's depictions of Hell, Purgatory and Heaven are now in people's collective minds as canon.

fair enough.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

The point is that Paradise Lost is so relevant as Christian Literature that practically everything believers assume about Lucifer / Satan's nature and character comes from it, rather than any canonical text.

No one in my church or anyone who I engage in theological discussion sees Paradise Lost as accurate in its presentation of Lucifer. PLs Lucifer is tragic, and can be argued to be the protagonist of the story, while God can serve as the antagonist. It makes his "I want to rule heaven" motive out to be "I want to be free of a tyrant." Most Christians that I know and encounter (and that is quite many considering I am becoming a Methodist Preacher) disregard PL as anything accurate and believe it is blasphemous in what it presents. We clearly do not ban works of fiction that are blasphemous or offensive to religious people, however, since Shin Megami Tensei is on the Wiki. Even if someone finds something to be offensive, they need to get over it. We can't censor everything for everyone. While having mainstream religious figures or still-worshiped gods on the Wiki would cause too much of a disturbance, I, for one, am not against Paradise Lost getting its own page.

 

[Sera_EX]

Well, I guess I'll be the one to break the news. Jainism should likely be treated in the same manner as Buddhism. Though not as widely practiced, we have to consider the possibilities. It is a religion of nonviolence, at most I do not see how you could make profiles for it. The problem with some profiles on this wiki, is that only one person can argue for its statistics, and I doubt anyone other than Tsubaki and Ven could argue for Jainsim, since their knowledge comes directly from the texts, which are known to be written in Sanskrit and other Indian Languages.

Taoism however, is hardly a religion. It is heavily tied into Chinese Mythology to the point that they are almost one and the same thing (most people can't even differentiate between them). Taoism is also a Dharma that most people can become familiarized with and some of its concepts can help understand some higher tier concepts in Vs. Battles (Wuji for example, would be the perfect explanatory profile for something like absolute nonexistence) and at the same time, be used in a manner that is in no way trying to spread the religion to other people (if that is a concern) considering this is solely for helping the wiki. That is my take however on that one particular religion.

 

[MorkarBaroque]

@Sera, do non violent religions have gods/figures of power with feats?

 

[Sera_EX]

Buddhism is non-violent and features deities with "feats". Jainism however does not, at least not from what I know, but Tsubaki seems to argue otherwise. The main problem with Buddhism is that if we allow the Buddha, people will most likely become upset that we allow Buddha and not Jesus Christ. Jainism in my opinion is featless and anything in it that says otherwise would be hard to argue for.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

do non violent religions have gods/figures of power with feats?

I can't speak for either of the religions you asked about, as I am not educated in them, but non-violent people from religion can still have feats. Jesus has a fair bit of hax, including Transmutation and Matter Manipulation in addition to his obvious resurrection. If not having damage-dealing feats is the only reason that Jainism wouldn't get profiles (disregarding any theology or controversy of it), I don't think that is a problem. Take this with a grain of salt, however, since I still don't know anything about Jainism.

 

[Sera_EX]

Jainism is closely tied to Buddhism and Hinduism in some concepts. The only deities within Jainism would be featured in the other two. Sikhism is very similar as Ven has studied all four of them and can vouch for what I'm saying. At most there is the "liberated soul" within Jainism that would be likely High 3-A, maybe Low 2-C. It is too vague.

Jainism in a way can be considered Buddhism from a different perspective and unaffiliated with the Buddha.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Isn't Jainism more metaphysics with no set mythology / folklore?

 

[MorkarBaroque]

@Assaltwaffle

i agree, we make crossover fights for fun, not to say "my religion is better than yours" those arguments are undesired here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Sera, do non violent religions have gods/figures of power with feats?

Hinduism is notable for being incredibly peaceful, and having no real antagonistic deity / figure of any real threat or significant to the pantheon of neutral / benevolent gods, and yet I'll argue it's the most powerful mythology.