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Hello!
I hope everyone is having a great day.
permission by Antvasima
In this thread, I intend to propose a full overhaul of the Acausality page.
The current page is not good, mostly due to vague definitions and inconsistent terminologies. Many of the existing types are unclear, open to multiple interpretations and in some cases not even directly related to causality. Most feel arbitrarily with no logical grounding.
I'll further explain these problems and my methods to solve them later on.
This thread will have four sections:
1- Deletions : Removing types that are unnecessary or not truly related to Acausality.
2- Reworks : Revising the descriptions of major Acausality types to make them more accurate.
3- Additions : Introducing a new type of Acausality.
4- Time Paradox : Bringing back Time Paradox Immunity as it deserves its own dedicated page.
Blogs needed for this thread:
Before we start, I would like to show my gratitude for Shiedaisthepeak(making the time paradox immunity page) and TheNothing84(for inputs they gave me privately).
Since this type lacks any real justification to be considered a distinct type of Acausality, I propose we remove it from the Acausality page entirely. But where should we dump it? obviously the immortality page.
I recommend either introducing it as a new type of immortality or having it as a subset of Type 6 Immortality.
Let's take a look at Type 6 immortality :
Now obviously, it's not a 100% copy but Type 3 Acausality generally has no significant relation to causality to warrant being its own distinct type. It seems more like a higer range for Type 6 Immortality. I propose merging the two and reworking Type 6 Immortality into something like this :
Type 2 is just an extension of Type 1. In this case, the character simply doesn’t exist in the past or future so same fate as Type 1 acausality will happen to it (Time Paradox Immunity).
But for now let’s take a look at the current Type 4 and examine it.
Now here’s the funny thing, by definition, these characters are completely and fundamentally outside the standard system of causality. They exist independently from it, operating on a separate system of cause and effect. But, according to current wiki standards (from what I seen, been told, and read), in a example like Low 1-C causality manipulation vs Low 2-C character with Type 4 Acausality, causality manipulation wins.
That’s absurd and doesn’t make any sense.
A Type 4 acausal character is, by nature, entirely disconnected from the regular framework of causality and its rules, including all of its extensions and complexities. They cannot be affected by any ability that only manipulates the standard system of causality, no matter how strong it is (unless negated obv). The only way they can be affected is if the ability also manipulates the irregular causality they are bound to, or if a qualitatively higher form of causality forces them.
I think my issue here and the main problem with how this type is currently handled is clear.
So, here’s my proposed solution as shown in the blog:
NOTE : THIS DOES NOT GRANT TIERING AND WILL NOT UPSCALE ANYONE.
But first let’s see the old definition.
So here is my proposal:
This type should be only for qualitative superiority, similar to Type 3 BDE. These characters transcend causality not just by being outside or irregular to it, but by being fundamentally above it, due to a qualitative gap. This makes them immune and immutable with respect to any form of causality within a specific level of reality.
It would make sense to make Type 5 Acausality (new Type 3) only for characters which show qualitative superiority, starting from at least 1-A or Type 3 BDE (These two should be directly linked).
So here’s the new version of this Type, which I call:
“Elyar what about characters who are stated to be outside causality and possess higher existence, but aren't qualitatively superior or from an irregular causal system?”
Well, that’s exactly what the new Type 1 is for!
The new Type 1 will be for characters who are immune to a specific dimensional level of causality manipulation, either because they possess higher-dimensional existence or are simply unaffected by it due to their nature(disconnected from causality but not like Type 1 BDE). This gives us a way to filter out certain vague scans and HDE based interpretations which were used to justify the old Type 4 or Type 5 for some characters, and have them be Type 1.
Like I said before, Type 1 is for characters who are immune to causality manipulation because of what they are, not because of qualitative superiority or being bound to a separate causal system. It only applies if the character:
So here is the new addition I propose:
I propose re-adding Time Paradox Immunity, which previously existed on the wiki. It should be brought back as:
Voting
AGREE : FinePoint(Type 4 & 5 Rework, New Type), DontTalkDT(Possibly Type 4), Antvasima(Possibly Type 4), Phoenks(Type 4 & 5 Rework, New Type)
DISAGREE : FinePoint(Deletions of Type 1,2 & 3), DontTalkDT(Almost Everything), Antvasima(Almost Everything), Phoenks(Deletions of Type 1,2 & 3
NEUTEAL :
I hope everyone is having a great day.
permission by Antvasima
Introduction
In this thread, I intend to propose a full overhaul of the Acausality page.
The current page is not good, mostly due to vague definitions and inconsistent terminologies. Many of the existing types are unclear, open to multiple interpretations and in some cases not even directly related to causality. Most feel arbitrarily with no logical grounding.
I'll further explain these problems and my methods to solve them later on.
This thread will have four sections:
1- Deletions : Removing types that are unnecessary or not truly related to Acausality.
2- Reworks : Revising the descriptions of major Acausality types to make them more accurate.
3- Additions : Introducing a new type of Acausality.
4- Time Paradox : Bringing back Time Paradox Immunity as it deserves its own dedicated page.
Blogs needed for this thread:
Before we start, I would like to show my gratitude for Shiedaisthepeak(making the time paradox immunity page) and TheNothing84(for inputs they gave me privately).
Deletions
Current Type 3 Acausality
First let us take a look at how it is defined :This has little to no connection to causality. What exactly is the "acausal" thing here? Nothing. It's a glorified form of immortality where the user stays alive by replacing the original self or having other existences.
Since this type lacks any real justification to be considered a distinct type of Acausality, I propose we remove it from the Acausality page entirely. But where should we dump it? obviously the immortality page.
I recommend either introducing it as a new type of immortality or having it as a subset of Type 6 Immortality.
Let's take a look at Type 6 immortality :
Similar, isn't it?
Now obviously, it's not a 100% copy but Type 3 Acausality generally has no significant relation to causality to warrant being its own distinct type. It seems more like a higer range for Type 6 Immortality. I propose merging the two and reworking Type 6 Immortality into something like this :
Current Type 1 & 2 Acausality
The definitions first :The first type is simply a form of time paradox immunity. It doesn’t need to be its own type of acausality, since time paradox immunity is already a well established concept in various works of fiction. This is why I will propose the (re)addition of Time Paradox Immunity.
Type 2 is just an extension of Type 1. In this case, the character simply doesn’t exist in the past or future so same fate as Type 1 acausality will happen to it (Time Paradox Immunity).
Reworks
The New Type 4 (2)
The New Type 4, but if we remove the first three types and add the one I’ll introduce later, this will become our new Type 2.But for now let’s take a look at the current Type 4 and examine it.
Characters of this nature don’t follow standard causality. Instead they are bound to a different, irregular system of cause and effect. Because of this, they are immune to abilities like Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and Precognition as long as those abilities cannot interact with the alternate causal system they operate under.
Now here’s the funny thing, by definition, these characters are completely and fundamentally outside the standard system of causality. They exist independently from it, operating on a separate system of cause and effect. But, according to current wiki standards (from what I seen, been told, and read), in a example like Low 1-C causality manipulation vs Low 2-C character with Type 4 Acausality, causality manipulation wins.
That’s absurd and doesn’t make any sense.
A Type 4 acausal character is, by nature, entirely disconnected from the regular framework of causality and its rules, including all of its extensions and complexities. They cannot be affected by any ability that only manipulates the standard system of causality, no matter how strong it is (unless negated obv). The only way they can be affected is if the ability also manipulates the irregular causality they are bound to, or if a qualitatively higher form of causality forces them.
I think my issue here and the main problem with how this type is currently handled is clear.
So, here’s my proposed solution as shown in the blog:
Type 2 - Irregular Causality : Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This has the potential to grant them resistances to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and Precognition, among others, depending on its shown capabilities which should be specified on the given page.
It must be noted that immunity to relevant abilities shouldn't generally be affected by quantitative changes within a specific level of reality. For example, a Low 2-C character with this type of Acausality would be immune even to Low 1-A Causality Manipulation of similar nature. They may still be vulnerable to manipulation of a system other than the one they're immune to, or one which comes from a qualitatively superior force.
It must be noted that immunity to relevant abilities shouldn't generally be affected by quantitative changes within a specific level of reality. For example, a Low 2-C character with this type of Acausality would be immune even to Low 1-A Causality Manipulation of similar nature. They may still be vulnerable to manipulation of a system other than the one they're immune to, or one which comes from a qualitatively superior force.
The New Type 5 (3)
Following Irregular Causality, this would be the new Type 3 if the deletions and additions are applied.But first let’s see the old definition.
The problem is pretty obvious. What the hell does "completely independent" or "unable to be changed by any effect that relies on a system of causality" actually mean? Are these characters superior since the type is literally named Transcendence, just because they’re not bound by standard causality? If that’s the case, then we’re simply describing Irregular Causality. or are they beings from higher dimensions who cannot be affected by lower-dimensional and lesser complex form of the causality? That would fall under the new Type 1, so we can set that aside. It also can’t mean the character is fully transcends the concept of causality itself, because that would mean Tier 0 which is impossible for anything/anyone below that level.
So here is my proposal:
This type should be only for qualitative superiority, similar to Type 3 BDE. These characters transcend causality not just by being outside or irregular to it, but by being fundamentally above it, due to a qualitative gap. This makes them immune and immutable with respect to any form of causality within a specific level of reality.
It would make sense to make Type 5 Acausality (new Type 3) only for characters which show qualitative superiority, starting from at least 1-A or Type 3 BDE (These two should be directly linked).
So here’s the new version of this Type, which I call:
Type 3 - Transcendental Causality Characters with this type of Acausality are completely independent of all cause and effect systems of a specific reality, as they exist within or abide by a qualitatively higher notion of causality. Interacting with such characters is typically impossible for beings bound to lower realities, and these characters are immutable to any influence from such beings.
It must be kept in mind, that these characters are still mutable, but only through the Transcendental Causality to which they are bound.
It must be kept in mind, that these characters are still mutable, but only through the Transcendental Causality to which they are bound.
Additions
“Elyar what about characters who are stated to be outside causality and possess higher existence, but aren't qualitatively superior or from an irregular causal system?”
Well, that’s exactly what the new Type 1 is for!
The new Type 1 will be for characters who are immune to a specific dimensional level of causality manipulation, either because they possess higher-dimensional existence or are simply unaffected by it due to their nature(disconnected from causality but not like Type 1 BDE). This gives us a way to filter out certain vague scans and HDE based interpretations which were used to justify the old Type 4 or Type 5 for some characters, and have them be Type 1.
Like I said before, Type 1 is for characters who are immune to causality manipulation because of what they are, not because of qualitative superiority or being bound to a separate causal system. It only applies if the character:
- Is stated to be immune to causality, as they exists on a higher dimensional compared to the ability in question
- Is stated to be immune to causality , as they are disconnected from causality but not in a way that implies qualitatively superior, irregular causality or HDE.
So here is the new addition I propose:
Type 1 - Dimensional Disjunction Causality : Characters with this type of Acausality exist outside or beyond the bounds of causality restricted to a specific dimensional level, not due to qualitative superiority, but due to operating within a higher temporal structure meaning a more complex topology. As a result, they are unaffected by causality manipulation that originates from lower-dimensions not aligned with their own.
A being existing in a higher dimension (such as 5D) may be entirely unaffected by 4D causality simply because the former would operate under a more complex form of the causality.
It's important to note that such characters could still be vulnerable to causality manipulation from beings existing in the same dimensional complexity or one that interacts with their own. Their immunity is based strictly on dimensional separation, not qualitative superiority.
A being existing in a higher dimension (such as 5D) may be entirely unaffected by 4D causality simply because the former would operate under a more complex form of the causality.
It's important to note that such characters could still be vulnerable to causality manipulation from beings existing in the same dimensional complexity or one that interacts with their own. Their immunity is based strictly on dimensional separation, not qualitative superiority.
Time Paradox
I propose re-adding Time Paradox Immunity, which previously existed on the wiki. It should be brought back as:
- The current Type 1 and Type 2 Acausality are suited for Time Paradox Immunity, and they lack sufficient justification to be treated as distinct types of acausality.
- Time Paradox Immunity is a well-known and widely used trope across various forms of media. Its popularity and frequent usage warrants a dedicated page of its own.
Voting
AGREE : FinePoint(Type 4 & 5 Rework, New Type), DontTalkDT(Possibly Type 4), Antvasima(Possibly Type 4), Phoenks(Type 4 & 5 Rework, New Type)
DISAGREE : FinePoint(Deletions of Type 1,2 & 3), DontTalkDT(Almost Everything), Antvasima(Almost Everything), Phoenks(Deletions of Type 1,2 & 3
NEUTEAL :
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