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Additions to the SBA

DontTalkDT

DontTalkDT

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Just made a fight the made me realize that there are certain things we haven't clarified in the SBA, that seem kinda obvious but should still be clarfied.

1. Characters don't give up on their own.

I think it is pretty clear we assume that. Like, a character we put in a battle wouldn't just go like "nehhh, I don't care" and go away. Likewise two characters wouldn't just become friends and agree to stop fighting or similar stuff.

2. No outside influence.

Also something we clearly assume, but don't specify. Like, if someone in verse would be about to seriously finish Tenchi some Choushin would likely prevent that due to him being of interest to their goal. But in a vs-thread they would obviously not be allowed to join into the battle.


Opinions?
 
People have also claimed that speed equalization's a part of SBA, despite that not being found anywhere on the SBA page.
 
Kiryu2012 said:
People have also claimed that speed equalization's a part of SBA, despite that not being found anywhere on the SBA page.
Click to expand...
Well, that's just wrong. We had a thread about adding it before, but that got rejected.
 
I agreed with point 1. Outside influence, in this case, look to be Type 8 Immortality which I would agree for validity if it is on a character's profile and lore; if not, I would agree with point 2.
 
To be fair, some characters are all about outside influence when it comes to fighting.
 
To clarify: Outside influence and taking power from an outside source are different things.

E.g. if a god bestows something like a blessing upon someone, which is powered by the god, that is fine. Also, if for example a spell calls upon the power of some demon lord (e.g. black magic in slayers) that is also no problem. And, obviously, summoned creatures can enter the battle.

This is basically just about characters not involved, out of their own free will, actively doing something.

To give another example: We once had a debate where it was decided that Goku using his teleport button to call Zeno to help him is not viable for a battle.
 
Eh I don't know about the first one, honestly. If it's a flaw in their fighting that they give up easily or whatever, I don't see why we should remove that.
 
Wokistan said:
Eh I don't know about the first one, honestly. If it's a flaw in their fighting that they give up easily or whatever, I don't see why we should remove that.
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Because otherwise there is virtually no character that would fight in any of our battles.

The entire fighting scenario has nothing at stake for any of the characters, so except some battle crazy dudes they would all just go home.
 
If they finish a fight before getting to that point, or die. Fights aren't always gonna drag on super long.
 
Wokistan said:
If they finish a fight before getting to that point, or die. Fights aren't always gonna drag on super long.
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Sometimes, the fight does drag on such a level, Wokista. I agree with the addition of the rule.
 
@Wokistan: That would require them to start first for some reason.

And drawn out fights ending in the characters just reaching mutual understanding is also not part of the idea.


We essentially have the "willing to kill" rule since we wish for characters to engage in a battle to the death. It's just unfitting to assume that the battle has the relevance of a bar fight to them.
 
Daily dose of bump
 
Hm, I guess I don't see the harm if we already assume the rules for the most part
 
I think not giving up on their own can work as a standard assumption, but it should be fine to create matches where the character is allowed to surrender.
 
I mean, if they aren't prone to giving up, then making that a victory condition would kinda be pointless anyway.
 
>outside influence

That... should be explained more.

Characters with Type 8 Immortality, Protection from Dieties, Whose powers depend on other people, et cetera. That could easily restrict tons of abilities and powers, heck, even a Tier of a character.

Also, I assume this includes influence from the SBA location of New York City? I had someone mention how two 9-B characters fighting would be stopped by the NYCPD, lol.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
>outside influence
That... should be explained more.
Click to expand...
Would the clarification I made in my third post suffice for that?


Nedge1000 said:
Honestly, the giving up suggestion should be only done if it is listed a weakness or with abilities like Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Fear Manipulation, Corruption, and Morality Manipulation.
Click to expand...
The "on their own" is an important part, yes. If people mind control or something the opponents can of course abandon the fight, as they don't do it on their own accord.

Maybe we should reformulate it a bit to make that more clear: "Characters will not give up, unless the opponent used a special technique or ability aimed at forcing them to give up. (E.g. Mind Manipulation, Fear Manipulation, Psychological Tricks, Superhuman Charisma)"

That should cover things like Elva talking people into submission.
 
Ah, cool. That aleviates most of my issues with it, then.

Could I get a response to this, though?

"Also, I assume this includes influence from the SBA location of New York City? I had someone mention how two 9-B characters fighting would be stopped by the NYCPD, lol."
 
I agree with rule one, unless of course the characters have some kind of ability that may make them give up. For example, Kumagwa's Book Maker has the effect that the shock of negativity may just make the oppoent give up on both the battle and life right there

Rule 2 definitely needs some more clarification tho, because Type 8 and power granting can blur the line at times. Also, when does summoning count as outside help, and when does it not
 
TacticalNuke002 said:
There are some characters that are prone to give up. Like MCU Dormammu if you can bargain with him enough.
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I mean in that case I feel like in a legit VS match it would probably just be taken as inconclusive. It really was a stalemate, but they came to a truce instead of staying there for eternity
 
Loss via "give up" shouldn't be a thing at all. Especially if we apply it with such arbitrary standards as "if they gave up once canonically".
 
How long to both have to sit there before it becomes considered an inconclusive? I believe its implied Dormammu looped over and over and over for a segnificant amount of time

At this point, Bill murray could be an even greater inconclusive king than Thunder McQueen lol, unless we say he eventually gets board and stops trying
 
i usually took it that it was populated with bystanders, because that at least gives people like Dio a chance to use their regen in a more combat applicable way like they do in their series
 
Pretty sure the reason why Central Park was decided is because characters have access to nearly anything, both an Urban Area nearby, plants, animals, water, people, etc., as to make the matchup fair to any character.
 
But that could give an unfair advantage with characters with large AoE attacks. Until Weiss vs Ratt I never had heard it interperted to mean bystanders. I always assumed empty.

I couldn't care less whether it's populated or not, but it should say on the SBA page that it is either one
 
I've usually taken it as clear of bystanders, so people who don't want to hurt civilians and stuff aren't restricted as much. Sometimes I'll specify that theres other stuff in places though.
 
Dargoo Faust said:
"Also, I assume this includes influence from the SBA location of New York City? I had someone mention how two 9-B characters fighting would be stopped by the NYCPD, lol."
Click to expand...
 
To the people in NYC debate:ÔÇ¿

My usual assumption would be that people are around, but do not willingly attempt to make any difference to the fight. Willingly being key term. If someone wants to mind control bystanders to have a fodder army, that's fine (I mean we allow characters to mind control bugs to have a bug army, so...).ÔÇ¿ However, when it comes to bystanders morals are off, as (directly or indirectly) taking hostages shouldn't be a thing in a fair fight.ÔÇ¿


Regarding how long until inconclusive:ÔÇ¿

I would say usually the fight can last forever. So for example on character could totally win against the other by making the fight take 100 years and have the other character die of old age.ÔÇ¿

Inconclusive would more come from the fact that such a long fight is very hard to predict, as at some point things like slip ups, long time strategies and mental exhaustion become very important factors.

Andytrenom said:
So incon through becoming friends may still be a thing...
Click to expand...
Not really, since a character could only be convinced to give up by another character trying to make that happen with exceptional skill.

In other words a character very skilled in fooling others could convince the other character that he is his friend and to let him win.

But two characters couldn't naturally become friends and decide to stop the fight without a winner.
 
DontTalkDT said:
E.g. if a god bestows something like a blessing upon someone, which is powered by the god, that is fine. Also, if for example a spell calls upon the power of some demon lord (e.g. black magic in slayers) that is also no problem. And, obviously, summoned creatures can enter the battle.
Click to expand...
What if the blessing from the god isn't some permanent thing from the past, but something that the god actively, ritually does every time something happens? Like how SCP-1440 cannot restrict himself in one place away from humanity (making him immune to BFR/sealing) because The Brothers Death want 1440 to be walking around humanity to kill them, to grow the brothers' army.
 
Agnaa said:
What if the blessing from the god isn't some permanent thing from the past, but something that the god actively, ritually does every time something happens? Like how SCP-1440 cannot restrict himself in one place away from humanity (making him immune to BFR/sealing) because The Brothers Death want 1440 to be walking around humanity to kill them, to grow the brothers' army.
Click to expand...
That's a very borderline case.

Thing is, if some character has made its lifetask to protect another character, and hence appears whenever that character is in trouble and fights to resolve its problems, I would still see that as outside influence, despite it being ritually every time something happens.

On the other hand we are getting into specific distinctions on how blessings work here. If some character is resurrected through gods power everytime it dies, it is possibly impossible to tell if the god is doing that actively or through a passive effect. And even if he does it actively I believe that has been added sometimes as an ability and sometimes not, dependend on the circumstances.


All in all I would say if its a specific effect (teleportation, ressurrection) as opposed to just help or fighting in general and it's done in a consistent guaranteed fashion it is probably fine.


HOWEVER, that is basically my stance for what lands on the page. For the purpose of the rules I would say it much simpler: If it's one of the abilities listed as a characters own abilities on its page, it should be acceptable to use.
 
Rule one is kinda already taken care of by the part of sa that says they know they are in a fight and are willing to kill

Rule two if added will cause a lot of needless debating in threads about "what counts as outside help" so I disagree with it
 
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