AE type 1/Type 2 Issues in Slime

[ImmortalDread]

The Demons of Slime Verse are still in need of physical bodies and are bound to their physical vessel in order to manifest and interact with the world.

And the Demons can’t affect nor enter the physical world without a body, hence why Rimuru needed to create bodies for all the demons that came to Tempest

So while they are indeed abstract entities due to be Conceptual existences, if you de-body them they pretty much can’t do anything at that point

It seems that the demons in this context are AE1 entities because they are conceptual abstract entities and do not have a physical form by themselves. However, they are able to manifest into the physical world and interact with it through a physical vessel or body. This means that when they have a body, they can be considered AE2 entities as they are reliant on the Spirit of Darkness.

Their souls, which are tied to their core essence, can also be considered a limited form of AE1.

Overall, it seems that the demons can be considered AE1 entities when they do not have a physical vessel and AE2 entities when they do have a physical vessel

Questions and Answers​

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I will write down all questions has been asked in this thread

• Who will get influenced in this thread?

All demons, including Rimuru.

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

I agree with what is here.
btw, I will chat with my friend to tell him to come to this thread and give his answer

 

[Ss3micah]

Yeah pretty much agree with this

Based on what I have watched and read about the Tensei Slime Franchise so far....
The Demons (also Spirits and Angels) should have AE1 because the essence of their being are fragments of the Great Spirits of Darkness (and Great Spirit of light) and possess no true physical shape and form thus fulfilling the requirement of AE1

When they get bodies thou that's the Issue (Ill be using Manga scans for Visual Aid to prove my point)

"Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars."

While demon's may be AE1 in their most purest essence without bodies, however once they gain bodies that's a different story. A true AE1 would remain a formless abstraction but clearly that is not the case anymore once they are given bodies



Furthermore its clear Demons can't manifest into the world of their own accord normally and require a body to be able to take action within the world. This is scene with Diablo who was gunning for the chance to be Rimuru's servant but could not manifest himself into the world nor could he do anything until a body was granted to him by Rimuru.



Furthermore, it should also be a point of reference that even Guy Crimson needed to be summon into the world and then after Evolving he summoned Misery and Raine and grant them Bodies to inhabit.

The demons are clearly physical and interactable in nature as they possess physical bodies and are directly interactable by even common people which goes very much against the Nature as being a Type 1 Abstract being.



I agree that Demons (and equivalently Angels and Spirits) should have Limited AE1 due to the true nature of their essence but once they possess physical bodies and vessels they should likely have AE2, due to their connection to the spirit of light and darkness, cause their physical nature does not line up with how AE1 is suppose to function

This would of course Affect Rimuru as well as his AE1 would now become AE2 with a Limited AE1 Essence due to possessing the physiology of demons

 

[Starfeldway]

seems this is light novel since wn already have ae1
how about true dragons eh?
shouldn't they get it?, technically every spiritual lifeform should get this not gonna lie

 

[Ss3micah]

seems this is light novel since wn already have ae1
how about true dragons eh?
shouldn't they get it?, technically every spiritual lifeform should get this not gonna lie

Just letting you know
I only used Manga scans cause their the most visually representative
Just the general idea and notion is being applied to the Web Novel Demons and Rimuru

Simply put the context of how their AE1 works on the requirements needed for it dont completely mess together as stated by both myself and dread
So Demons (angels, spirits and dragons too possibly) and Rimuru will have Limited AE1 essences but will have AE2 mainly as with physical bodies they lack the requirement needed for true AE1

 

[Starfeldway]

Just letting you know
I only used Manga scans cause their the most visually representative
Just the genral idea and notion is being applied to the Web Novel Demons and Rimuru

Simply put the context of how their AE1 works on the requirements needed for it dont completely mess together as stated by both myself and dread
So Demons (angels, spirits and dragons too possibly) and Rimuru will have Limited AE1 essences but will have AE2 mainly as with physical bodies they lack the requirement needed for true AE1

hmm,I wonder how someone like veldanava lacks true ae1, from the argument of guy crimson "veldanava is a complete spiritual lifeform, so his soul can't shatter" let me reference that quote to the fact he is still alive but as an abstraction, just like every other true dragons. and when he gets a "body" can manifest in the physical world....
what am I trying to imply?
is the fact that people like true dragons are complete AE1 and not limited like demons who have ties to the great spirits of darkness or using thier core/essence as argument
to be more specific true dragons are the sources of the world itself just so you know-volume 4

 

[Ss3micah]

hmm,I wonder how someone like veldanava lacks true ae1, from the argument of guy crimson "veldanava is a complete spiritual lifeform, so his soul can't shatter" let me reference that quote to the fact he is still alive but as an abstraction, just like every other true dragons. and when he gets a "body" can manifest in the physical world....
what am I trying to imply?
is the fact that people like true dragons are complete AE1 and not limited like demons who have ties to the great spirits of darkness or using thier core/essence as argument
to be more specific true dragons are the sources of the world itself just so you know

#1 Was not talking about Veldanava
#2 This is what I am saying:

"Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars." and a true AE1 would be formless.

There is a Legit Reason we dont give characters like the Creation Trio and Arceus (Avatars) AE1. The creation Trio in their true forms are literal concepts however because they possess physical forms and are physically interactable by pretty much anything in the world that goes directly against them having AE1. AE1 is supposed to be abstract and formless which is why the True Forms of the Creation Trio and Arceus have AE1.

Anyways Im not making this about Veldanava nor the Dragons but basically the idea here is IF True Dragons core essence are that of conceptual existences or abstract beings that are formless in every regard then yeah they get AE1. However if when those core essences possess PHYSICAL BODIES that can be interacted with by pretty much anything and anyone, then the AE1 CANNOT be scaled to the PHYSICAL BODY. Only the Essence would be abstract but the body itself exists in physical interactable form hence why the AE1 cant scale to them in complete entity IF thats the case.

You can be the literal concept of everything that is, has been or ever will be, but once you possess a PHYSICAL FORM and it physically interactable then that kills your chance to scale the AE1 to the Bodies Nature
You would be effectively scaling something that is formless to something that is LITERALLY shown to have actual shape and form and then proclaiming it to be formless as well for complete AE1.
Thats not how standards work

Anyways as an intermediate reader of the series I wont say too much on what's what
Whatever is decided in the end by everyone is the outcome I shall also accept

 

[Ss3micah]

hmm,I wonder how someone like veldanava lacks true ae1, from the argument of guy crimson "veldanava is a complete spiritual lifeform, so his soul can't shatter" let me reference that quote to the fact he is still alive but as an abstraction, just like every other true dragons. and when he gets a "body" can manifest in the physical world....
what am I trying to imply?
is the fact that people like true dragons are complete AE1 and not limited like demons who have ties to the great spirits of darkness or using thier core/essence as argument
to be more specific true dragons are the sources of the world itself just so you know-volume 4

Reload your Page Quick
I edited my comment lols

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

What is the TL;DR in this?

I read the entirety of the argument both from the OP, and the replies.
I agree to what is being presented.

I'm sorry, but I fail to grasp what is it being proposed here.

 

[Starfeldway]

#1 Was not talking about Veldanava
#2 This is what I am saying:

"Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars." and a true AE1 would be formless.

There is a Legit Reason we dont give characters like the Creation Trio and Arceus (Avatars) AE1. The creation Trio in their true forms are literal concepts however because they possess physical forms and are physically interactable by pretty much anything in the world that goes directly against them having AE1. AE1 is supposed to be abstract and formless which is why the True Forms of the Creation Trio and Arceus have AE1.

Anyways Im not making this about Veldanava nor the Dragons but basically the idea here is IF True Dragons core essence are that of conceptual existences or abstract beings that are formless in every regard then yeah they get AE1. However if when those core essences possess PHYSICAL BODIES that can be interacted with by pretty much anything and anyone, then the AE1 CANNOT be scaled to the PHYSICAL BODY. Only the Essence would be abstract but the body itself exists in physical interactable form hence why the AE1 cant scale to them in complete entity IF thats the case.

You can be the literal concept of everything that is, has been or ever will be, but once you possess a PHYSICAL FORM and it physically interactable then that kills your chance to scale the AE1 to the Bodies Nature
You would be effectively scaling something that is formless to something that is LITERALLY shown to have actual shape and form and then proclaiming it to be formless as well for complete AE1.
Thats not how standards work

Anyways as an intermediate reader of the series I wont say too much on what's what
Whatever is decided in the end by everyone is the outcome I shall also accept

Well true dragons scale to this,that's why I was using veldanava as reference
#1 feldway wants to call him back by creating a perfect vessel for his soul which should now be ae2
#2 true dragons exist merely by the prayers of others and their true form is the sources of the world- multiverse/reality
#3 we all now know that veldanava currently exist as an abstraction that literally can't be interacted with in any ******* way..which brings us to why feldway wants to create the perfect body for him to call him back to the real world...
#4 veldora journal he mentioned true dragons being conceptual existences and all
what I am saying is
true dragons are the highest spiritual lifeforms who should get legit abstract existence type 1
demons and angels should be limited
all other spiritual lifeforms who embody the laws of the world like ifirit should also be ae2 Nd not 1
manas should be limited ae1
rimuru should be limited ae1
that's all

 

[Starfeldway]

Reload your Page Quick
I edited my comment lols

oh okay my bad. noted then

 

[Starfeldway]

What is the TL;DR in this?

I read the entirety of the argument both from the OP, and the replies.
I agree to what is being presented.

I'm sorry, but I fail to grasp what is it being proposed here.

essences of spiritual lifeforms are limited ae1
true dragons are legit ae1
rimuru is limited ae1
and uhmm
pretty much that's all

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

essences of spiritual lifeforms are limited ae1
true dragons are legit ae1
rimuru is limited ae1
and uhmm
pretty much that's all

Thanks.

 

[Mizuki67]

Just letting you know
I only used Manga scans cause their the most visually representative
Just the general idea and notion is being applied to the Web Novel Demons and Rimuru

Simply put the context of how their AE1 works on the requirements needed for it dont completely mess together as stated by both myself and dread
So Demons (angels, spirits and dragons too possibly) and Rimuru will have Limited AE1 essences but will have AE2 mainly as with physical bodies they lack the requirement needed for true AE1

I don't think Rimuru will get affected by this? but the demons & angels is yess

 

[ImmortalDread]

Rimuru only get the AE through demon physiology, so pretty much, he will get affected too.

 

[Ss3micah]

Well true dragons scale to this,that's why I was using veldanava as reference

Hmmm
Let’s see

#1 feldway wants to call him back by creating a perfect vessel for his soul which should now be ae2

Alright this is already where we going wrong
If his CORE ESSENCE is like any other True Dragon then why would it be AE2 and not AE1? It would be AE1 due it’s Formless Conceptualized Nature

#2 true dragons exist merely by the prayers of others and their true form is the sources of the world- multiverse/reality

That’s why their CORE ESSENCE gets Type 1 AE

#3 we all now know that veldanava currently exist as an abstraction that literally can't be interacted with in any ******* way..which brings us to why feldway wants to create the perfect body for him to call him back to the real world...

This ONLY applies to Veldanava because as you have so graciously pointed out…. He NO LONGER has a Physical Form and thus would qualify as he is only capable of existing in an abstract formless state

#4 veldora journal he mentioned true dragons being conceptual existences and all
what I am saying is
true dragons are the highest spiritual lifeforms who should get legit abstract existence type 1
demons and angels should be limited
all other spiritual lifeforms who embody the laws of the world like ifirit should also be ae2

This is not how AE works AT ALL
AE is not subjective to Verse Hierarchy
It’s something you need to fulfill our requirements of standards to get

Let me re-explain this SLOWLY

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars." and a true AE1 would be formless.

That right there is our standards
The reasons why Spirits, Demons, Angels and Dragons would get AE1 now is because their CORE ESSENCE of being conceptual existences purely that of an abstraction lacking a TRUE PHYSICAL FORM.

The reason why this CANNOT BE SCALED to their Bodies/Vessels that’s needed for them to exist in the world is because it’s goes AGAINST the two major requirements for AE1

Both of which are:
1. Being a FORMLESS abstraction
2. Possessing NO TRUE PHYSICAL FORM

The PHYSICAL bodies that these creatures will possess grants them PHYSICAL FORM and makes them completely interact-able, from the kid at the candy store to the man on the street.

I don’t need to point out to anyone hear that after getting a physical form Veldora can be touched by literally anyone plus he has shape and form. That goes against True AE1

True AE1 is like Arceus True Form, Giygas from Earthbound, Madoka for Puella Magi, Eternity from Marvel….etc

These characters constantly exist in a state where they are FORMLESS abstractions and lack any PHYSICAL forms. Hence why they qualify

So if you want to be the Dragons here
Here’s what my Knights of the Round Table have to say:

The true CONCEPTUAL ABSTRACT ESSENCE of Dragons would make them Type 1 AE as their True Essence are that of formless Abstractions. Once in a PHYSICAL BODY that can be interacted with by anyone, the True Dragons get AE2 as they no longer exist in a formless state but have gained shape and form and have consistently be displayed as being generally interact-able which directly goes against how AE1 works.

You don’t Hierarchy scale True Dragons being superior to Angels and Demons as the reason they would get AE1

And no you cannot scale their formless CORE ESSENCE to their bodies because that’s essentially the same as saying Zamasu should have AE1 prior to becoming IZ. Or Giygas (Mother 1) should have AE1 prior to becoming Giygas (Mother 2)

Both characters possessing PHYSICAL forms that can’t be interacted with is a key reason neither would either get AE1. And it’s also the reason they have AE1 only when in a formless state. The same must be applied here, so unless their is some actual showing or statement of the PHYSICAL BODIES of Dragons being FORMLESS and completely uninteractable then would not get AE1 once inhabiting a physical Body and only get AE1 as their Core Essence fulfill that Criteria

 

[Ss3micah]

What is the TL;DR in this?

I read the entirety of the argument both from the OP, and the replies.
I agree to what is being presented.

I'm sorry, but I fail to grasp what is it being proposed here.

TLDR from my view is this:

We have a simple standard requirement for AE1:

Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars." and a true AE1 would be formless.

Angels, Spirits, Demons and Dragons get AE1 Core Essences as their Core Essence is conceptual and formless in nature thus fulfilling the standard

This AE1 however cannot be scaled back to the physical bodies because it’s shown that #1 the possess physical forms which AE1 fundamental means you lack and #2 their physical bodies has shown to be generally interactable to anything and anyone

This not how true AE1 behaves and if we allowed it then it would mean we scale the Abstract Formless nature of the core essences to the physical bodies they inhabit that has been shown to be anything but formless abstractions

Due this, Angels, Spirits, Demons and Dragons would have AE2 ONCE they inhabit a physical body/vessel (but their true essence stays the same as AE1)

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Due this, Angels, Spirits, Demons and Dragons would have AE2 ONCE they inhabit a physical body/vessel (but their true essence stays the same as AE1)

Sounds good to me.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I know, I never do mistakes. We need two supporters, and we will apply this, as long as we “supporters” all agree to downgrade, it's fine.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Case by case since iirc some soecial demons can manifest a physical body. Them being abstract is irrelevant whether they can interact with physical body or not. So i believe a better description for their AE is needed

AE 2 would mean they can come back but that's not something they can do alone.
You can also just put it in the weakness section similar to What Granblue did saying primal beast are basically powerless in their abstract form

 

[ImmortalDread]

Are you agreeing or disagreeing, or suggesting an alternative? I am confused, right now.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Are you agreeing or disagreeing, or suggesting an alternative? I am confused, right now.

Suggesting alternative rather than outright downgrading.

Either in weakness section or ae description


Edit: because AE 2 description implies they can regenerate as long as the abstract they embodies exist which isn't really the case for their avatars

 

[ImmortalDread]

Mhm, I will wait for others, the suggestion seems fine for me as well. But a direct AE type 1 is not in my table.

 

[Ss3micah]

Case by case since iirc some soecial demons can manifest a physical body. Them being abstract is irrelevant whether they can interact with physical body or not. So i believe a better description for their AE is needed

Not sure who these special demons are
Not entirely sure they could set the standard either given that AFAIK the seven primordial demons (all had to be summoned into the world and then given physical bodies to do stuff on the physical plane

However if there are examples of Demons doing this of their own accord then sure

Suggesting alternative rather than outright downgrading.

Either in weakness section or ae description
Edit: because AE 2 description implies they can regenerate as long as the abstract they embodies exist which isn't really the case for their avatars

This has Merit
Then what do you suggest?
We allow the Demons, Spirits, Angels, Dragons, etc to keep their AE1 but outline either in the description or in the weakness section all we have discussed?

That being:
The need a physical body/vessel to do stuff in the physical world
Their physical vessels are interactable

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Not sure who these special demons are
Not entirely sure they could set the standard either given that AFAIK the seven primordial demons (all had to be summoned into the world and then given physical bodies to do stuff on the physical plane

However if there are examples of Demons doing this of their own accord then sure



This has Merit
Then what do you suggest?
We allow the Demons, Spirits, Angels, Dragons, etc to keep their AE1 but outline either in the description or in the weakness section all we have discussed?

That being:
The need a physical body/vessel to do stuff in the physical world
Their physical vessels are interactable

Either is fine really. But i think it should be in weakness because it is technically a weakness (and weakness section is almost always underused).

Special demons yeah mostly primordials.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Either is fine really. But i think it should be in weakness because it is technically a weakness (and weakness section is almost always underused).

Special demons yeah mostly primordials.

We don't show weakness to people

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Someone told me not be afraid to be vulnerable to people i trust.

A weakness it should be base on my personal opinion alone.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Someone told me not be afraid to be vulnerable to people i trust.

A weakness it should be base on my personal opinion alone.

 

[Ss3micah]

Either is fine really. But i think it should be in weakness because it is technically a weakness (and weakness section is almost always underused).

It technically is a weakness but at the same time those weaknesses directly conflicts with what Full-Blown AE1 is supposed to be.
We are giving AE1 to the bodies but the bodies do anything but function like AE1

Anyways I guess either solution is fine

Remove AE1 from bodies and keep them for Core Essences
Or Keep AE1 for bodies but outline the weakness in the description or weakness section

I’ll let Dread and other Slime supporters take it from there

Special demons yeah mostly primordials.

Yeah it ain’t the primordial a as far as I am aware since each of them had to be summoned (Guy who is the strongest included) and then given physical bodies

 

[Starfeldway]

Alright this is already where we going wrong
If his CORE ESSENCE is like any other True Dragon then why would it be AE2 and not AE1? It would be AE1 due it’s Formless Conceptualized Nature

I agree with you,also I was saying veldanava's body being called back makes the body type 2

 

[Starfeldway]

You don’t Hierarchy scale True Dragons being superior to Angels and Demons as the reason they would get AE1

why not they were said to be the highest spiritual lifeforms or rather supreme chaos spirit,unlike demons and angels which are tied to light spirit and why I conclude limited Ae1 to only demons and angels because although appearing within the physical world with their essences like how guy was summoned and all....
true dragons ain't the case
I agree with your arguments very much
just clearing out true dragons shouldn't be limited

 

[ImmortalDread]

why not

Scaling to someone =/= having their nature of state. If I scale to someone, it does not mean I have their immortality.

 

[Starfeldway]

Scaling to someone =/= having their nature of state. If I scale to someone, it does not mean I have their immortality.

haha...
what?
am not talking about scaling

 

[ImmortalDread]

Then remove “why not” in your comment to “we don't gain the state of being for being superior to them”.

 

[Starfeldway]

Then remove “why not” in your comment to “we don't gain the state of being for being superior to them”.

what if there's an existence more abstract than ae1

 

[ImmortalDread]

Rephrase your sentence if you don't mind

 

[Starfeldway]

what if there's an existence more abstract than ae1

mind updating Rimuru_Tempest profiles please ?
also I meant
someone is ae1 but there exist someone more abstract than you are

 

[ImmortalDread]

Why would this matter? Pure abstraction is already perfection.

 

[Starfeldway]

Why would this matter? Pure abstraction is already perfection.

mind updating rimuru profile please

 

[ImmortalDread]

mind updating rimuru profile please

I already said my concerns. Mind doing them, so I can update them accordingly.