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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

RedReaper616 said:
Lemme think. In terms of Stamina, I agree GT has advantage. Especially because when Goku was against Golden Oozaru Baby, it’s made clear Goku “barely has enough Ki for a regular Kamehameha” and yet he could maintain SSJ4. So sure, if you want, but the fight seems a tad uneven in that sense.

Though, a big deal to consider is that GT Goku can absorb an Enemy’s Ki, like how he absorbed Baby’s Revenge Death Ball Final.
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yeah, that'll be a problem for tUI, specially cuz the form can't be mantained for long

But it isn't enough to call out a stomp, is it?

noninho said:
Our man @Ednaxel2 confirmed for me that the multiplier "400x SSJ3" is usable for SSG in both manga and anime, and as he's an undeniably reliable source, here i go again at it!



Cool fact: now with the SSG multiplier, we have made them exactly equals at 2.000.000.000x 2-C (considering Moro arc pUI vs SS3), **** yeah! Now, with the speed equal (only possible way to make this fair lol) the only difference is the LS gap, should be like 1.5 tiers due to both being a bizillion times the feats which had a 2 tier gap.

Apparently tUI > UI+transformations, so that's not an advantage, and every other thing presented has GT dealing with them with ease. Also, both transformations are quite heavy staminawise, but GT has his tail, which helps refining the ki and stamina using, while tUI is remarkably short in time usage, and this can be very problematic for Manga. Hakai seems to not be instant or quick, and stuff like the megazord can get Manga's ass Super Dragon Fisted (i have not intended for this pun, but i'm keeping it lmfao), so tUI has a short period of time to outskill GT or else he's cooked

Opinions? Worthy of creating a match?
Click to expand...
I once again ask people to give inputs on this, the matter of speed became the largest deviation ever lol
they'd be equal at MFTL+ and growing because that's what saiyans do. Any other opinion?
and again: worthy of creating a match?
 
Nullflowerblush said:
But they are quite literally the same forms.
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I mean SSJ Grade 4 and SSJ Grade 1 are both "just" SSJ, and they are depicted differently. It's "subtle" and just in how it portrays the hair shape, and yet still present. And everyone can tell that it's just SSJ. Giving that same kind of minor change to Blue's Imperfect and Perfected states seems fine to me.

Though, I'd argue that the only reason why the difference seems absent is because the actual difference in the manga is the lack of Aura, which isn't maintained in transformation sequences, or for big moves, and straight up just never is maintained in the anime (partly because mastery over Blue was basically instant and didn't rquire this suppression of Ki, but also, I assume, because lacking an Aura in the anime is just intensely less cool than having one in terms of visual stuff happening on screen).

So the "lack of Aura" doesn't hit within the Anime as hard as subtle always present visual distinctions.
 
599486339_1551010752833412_1255162797825199252_n.png

Thats the reason why he is the BEST Villain in DBZ
 
RedReaper616 said:
I mean SSJ Grade 4 and SSJ Grade 1 are both "just" SSJ, and they are depicted differently.
Click to expand...
The former page (from DBZ:126) and the latter page (from DBZ:196) are separated by eight months of publication. Goku, for example, in the latter example appears different from how he was illustrated in the former example because of the art style evolving over time; but in DBZ:192, shortly before they emerge from the Room of Spirit and Time, Goku and Gohan use Grade 1 on-screen, and they are depicted with functionally identical hair.
RedReaper616 said:
Giving that same kind of minor change to Blue's Imperfect and Perfected states seems fine to me.
Click to expand...
Even ignoring the above arguments, Fourth Grade Super Saiyan is the product of training the body to adjust to Super Saiyan, like training a muscle to more comfortably perform an exercise; Perfected Blue is the product of using Blue and then containing all of its energy within the body, thus preventing its power from leaking and rapidly dropping below 10%. Even if Fourth Grade Super Saiyan did incur any minor physical changes onto the original form, Perfected Blue is functionally and literally exactly thesame as Blue.
RedReaper616 said:
and straight up just never is maintained in the anime (partly because mastery over Blue was basically instant and didn't rquire this suppression of Ki
Click to expand...
Partly because Perfected Blue does not exist in the anime because Blue has never had the drawbacks featured in the manga.
 
Oh, and since nobody embarked on the Manga vs. GT yet again, i'll keep the feeling that by our standards, GT is the superior Goku B)

And i don't even know why this makes me feel happy, i just like SS4 design but have yet to watch the anime lol. Think now'd be a good time to start it
 
Nullflowerblush said:
The former page (from DBZ:126) and the latter page (from DBZ:196) are separated by eight months of publication. Goku, for example, in the latter example appears different from how he was illustrated in the former example because of the art style evolving over time; but in DBZ:192, shortly before they emerge from the Room of Spirit and Time, Goku and Gohan use Grade 1 on-screen, and they are depicted with functionally identical hair.
Click to expand...
Gohan's and Goku's hair is definitely different even there. Goku's bangs on his right side are far more promient there than they are on Grade 4, and Gohan's hair spikes on the right side of his hair point upwards, unlike how they appear when he leaves the chamber, which is jutting out.
Nullflowerblush said:
Even ignoring the above arguments, Fourth Grade Super Saiyan is the product of training the body to adjust to Super Saiyan, like training a muscle to more comfortably perform an exercise; Perfected Blue is the product of using Blue and then containing all of its energy within the body, thus preventing its power from leaking and rapidly dropping below 10%. Even if Fourth Grade Super Saiyan did incur any minor physical changes onto the original form, Perfected Blue is functionally and literally exactly the same as Blue.
Click to expand...
The mastery of Ki of Super Saiyan Blue and the body aren't unrelated. Goku has to constantly contain the power, which is insanely taxing, something we see happen and he has to learn to adapt to, just like Super Saiyan. Sure, it's not what "Perfected Blue" exactly is--It's the adaptation of strain to Perfected Blue, but there is still a similar physical component. Additionally, we know Ki functions in tandem with the Body (and Soul and Mind). Hence why manipulation of Ki into techniques like the Kaioken can create physical alterations, like a swollen body, or in the case of Zamasu, an entirely different color of Super Saiyan Transformation and affects on the physical form (no strain, seemingly perfect ki control, etc.)

It would not be strange for Perfected Blue to have similar alterations to the Super Saiyan Form as Rose does, or Grade 4.
Nullflowerblush said:
Partly because Perfected Blue does not exist in the anime because Blue has never had the drawbacks featured in the manga.
Click to expand...
Yes. That's what that sense you just read means. "Mastery of Blue was instant and did not need suppression of Ki" directly is saying exactly that. I was just also accounting for how Super Saiyan Blue is depicted in events that were considered canon both to the Anime and the Manga, like Dragon Ball Super: Broly.
 
If you fill a bottle up with more water than it can handle, it'll start expanding and eventually burst. If you patch up a few holes in a water bottle and trap a leak inside, you just get a water bottle at full capacity.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
If you fill a bottle up with more water than it can handle, it'll start expanding and eventually burst. If you patch up a few holes in a water bottle and trap a leak inside, you just get a water bottle at full capacity.
Click to expand...
Not if the water bottole is actively making the water denser somehow. God ki is probably some kind of denser ki and angle ki is probably even denser, I'd say the denser ki is the harder it is to sense.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Why would God Ki be denser? It's just a more refined Ki.
Click to expand...
It explains the lack of leaking out, because that's ki that could be condensed properly into god ki.

It also would explain the whole full container issue you talked about. A container could hold more if what was in it was getting denser


Edit: besides I don't think there's another way to explain how it was refined.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
If you fill a bottle up with more water than it can handle, it'll start expanding and eventually burst. If you patch up a few holes in a water bottle and trap a leak inside, you just get a water bottle at full capacity.
Click to expand...
You say this.

I point out if the water inside the bottle was getting denser, then the bottle could hold more well covering the leaks, likewise if god ki is denser ki perventing ki from leaking out would make sense.
 
Darkmon_cns said:
I point out if the water inside the bottle was getting denser, then the bottle could hold more well covering the leaks
Click to expand...
With a water bottle—and, for the purposes of our analogy, a body—the density, and therefore the mass, of the water (Ki) inside is largely inconsequential; whereas the volume, what exactly fills up the space inside, determines the condition of the bottle. Even if the Ki inside of, say, Goku's body was denser—even disregarding how little, if ever, the concept of Ki densityhas been referenced—if the volume (or the size, as inferred throughout the manga; Ki becomes bigger and smaller, not heavier and lighter) of his Ki was the same as when its density is "normal", his body would be largely unaffected. For example, when using the Kaio-ken, the density of his Ki remains unchanged; instead, he directly multiplies the size of his Ki, and because its volume approaches the limits of what his body has been trained to be capable of withstanding, every x-fold multiplier increases the risk of his body exploding from within, due to his Ki becoming too large to contain.
Darkmon_cns said:
likewise if god ki is denser ki perventing ki from leaking out would make sense.
Click to expand...
However, God Ki is not denser. For our purposes, the only confirmed unique properties of God Ki is how much more refined the former is than normal Ki; in fact, its "clear, high quality" nature is why God Ki can only be sensed by gods—at least in the manga. The only reason why Super Saiyan Blue's energy leaks from the body is because, again, Blue is simply overwhelmingly powerful; Goku says as much, Gowasu says as much, and Vegeta says as much.

Being a normal Super Saiyan by itself "overstresses" the body because they are drawing out dozens of times more of their latent abilities than normal by drastically altering their physical shape—transforming—which is a constant "gigantic effort", resulting in their energy being continuously drained, regardless of whether they are using 100% of their full power or are even in combat; being a Super Saiyan God requires an additional transformation in order to unleash the absorbed powers of a god, further straining the body; and being a Super Saiyan Blue, naturally, combines the drawbacks of both, draining one's physical stamina more rapidly than before, which results in the energy their body can no longer sustain leaking through their aura.

In exchange for losing their power rapidly, their body is not broken from within by their energy. However, Perfected Blue, conversely, can utilize 100% of Blue's normal power continuously in exchange for physical health, risking self-destruction by trapping all of the form's energy within the body.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
With a water bottle—and, for the purposes of our analogy, a body—the density, and therefore the mass, of the water (Ki) inside is largely inconsequential; whereas the volume, what exactly fills up the space inside, determines the condition of the bottle. Even if the Ki inside of, say, Goku's body was denser—even disregarding how little, if ever, the concept of Ki densityhas been referenced—if the volume (or the size, as inferred throughout the manga; Ki becomes bigger and smaller, not heavier and lighter) of his Ki was the same as when its density is "normal", his body would be largely unaffected. For example, when using the Kaio-ken, the density of his Ki remains unchanged; instead, he directly multiplies the size of his Ki, and because its volume approaches the limits of what his body has been trained to be capable of withstanding, every x-fold multiplier increases the risk of his body exploding from within, due to his Ki becoming too large to contain.

However, God Ki is not denser. For our purposes, the only confirmed unique properties of God Ki is how much more refined the former is than normal Ki; in fact, its "clear, high quality" nature is why God Ki can only be sensed by gods—at least in the manga. The only reason why Super Saiyan Blue's energy leaks from the body is because, again, Blue is simply overwhelmingly powerful; Goku says as much, Gowasu says as much, and Vegeta says as much.

Being a normal Super Saiyan by itself "overstresses" the body because they are drawing out dozens of times more of their latent abilities than normal by drastically altering their physical shape—transforming—which is a constant "gigantic effort", resulting in their energy being continuously drained, regardless of whether they are using 100% of their full power or are even in combat; being a Super Saiyan God requires an additional transformation in order to unleash the absorbed powers of a god, further straining the body; and being a Super Saiyan Blue, naturally, combines the drawbacks of both, draining one's physical stamina more rapidly than before, which results in the energy their body can no longer sustain leaking through their aura.

In exchange for losing their power rapidly, their body is not broken from within by their energy. However, Perfected Blue, conversely, can utilize 100% of Blue's normal power continuously in exchange for physical health, risking self-destruction by trapping all of the form's energy within the body.
Click to expand...
I don't think.you understand this but higher density means there is more in a given volume. The size of ki has never been brought up for god ki because the usually spectators can't sense it. Even then it's likly a description of how they sense it, not necessarily how it physical IS in a situation besides kioken
 
Darkmon_cns said:
I don't think.you understand this but higher density means there is more in a given volume.
Click to expand...
Yes. So? Again, Ki density has never been addressed. Ki is measured in volume; the size of one's Ki is measured in a numerical format (i.e., Battle Power; Kili) which can only be compared to volume, not density. When you power up, when you transform, when you unleash your energy, your Ki increases in volume, not in density. The concept of Ki density is completely unfounded.
Darkmon_cns said:
The size of ki has never been brought up for god ki because the usually spectators can't sense it.
Click to expand...
Really? A god has never been sensed powering up by another god before?
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Yes. So? Again, Ki density has never been addressed. Ki is measured in volume; the size of one's Ki is measured in a numerical format (i.e., Battle Power; Kili) which can only be compared to volume, not density. When you power up, when you transform, when you unleash your energy, your Ki increases in volume, not in density. The concept of Ki density is completely unfounded.

Really? A god has never been sensed powering up by another god before?
Click to expand...
1 it answers your question.... look size can just be how people perceive a stronger ki that dosen't mean it literally takes up more space unless your trying to imply kioken times 10 had a smaller ki then SS3 which would be nonesense. Are you trying to say training makes there souls "bigger" to accommodate more ki somehow? Such a concept has never happened.

2 I can recall no instance where those terms were used to discirbe there ki.
 
Darkmon_cns said:
look size can just be how people perceive a stronger ki that dosen't mean it literally takes up more space
Click to expand...
Ki definitively does take up more physical space within the user's body. After all, Ki is "latent energy inside the body" (た体内の潜在エネルギー); the "energy hidden inside the body" (からだの中にあるかくされたエネルギー); and the "life energy hidden within a living being's body" (生物の体内に秘められた生命のエネルギー). See MAX Power, Kaio-ken x3, see Second Form Frieza, see 100% Full Power, see Semi-Perfect Cell, see Second Grade Super Saiyan, see Third Grade Super Saiyan, see Powerhouse Cell, see Yakon, see Buff Buu, see Legendary Super Saiyan, see Saganbo, see Ultra Instinct -Sign- Kaio-ken(?), see Moro.
Darkmon_cns said:
unless your trying to imply kioken times 10 had a smaller ki then SS3 which would be nonesense.
Click to expand...
Yes? A Tenfold Kaio-ken (10x) by itself yields a Ki over forty-times smaller than that yielded by Super Saiyan 3 (>400x).
Darkmon_cns said:
Are you trying to say training makes there souls "bigger" to accommodate more ki somehow?
Click to expand...
No, I'm saying physical and mental training can make the energy which is a byproduct of various physical and mental components bigger.
Darkmon_cns said:
I can recall no instance where those terms were used to discirbe there ki.
Click to expand...
Are you talking about "size", "Battle Power", or "Kili"?
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Ki definitively does take up more physical space within the user's body. After all, Ki is "latent energy inside the body" (た体内の潜在エネルギー); the "energy hidden inside the body" (からだの中にあるかくされたエネルギー); and the "life energy hidden within a living being's body" (生物の体内に秘められた生命のエネルギー). See MAX Power, Kaio-ken x3, see Second Form Frieza, see 100% Full Power, see Semi-Perfect Cell, see Second Grade Super Saiyan, see Third Grade Super Saiyan, see Powerhouse Cell, see Yakon, see Buff Buu, see Legendary Super Saiyan, see Saganbo, see Ultra Instinct -Sign- Kaio-ken(?), see Moro.

Yes? A Tenfold Kaio-ken (10x) by itself yields a Ki over forty-times smaller than that yielded by Super Saiyan 3 (>400x).

No, I'm saying physical and mental training can make the energy which is a byproduct of various physical and mental components bigger.
Click to expand...
I think were getting away from your orignal point I'm responding to and what my point was about why I don't believe this works.

You claimed god ki stopping energy leaking out didn't make sense because the bodie can only hold so much so perventing a leak wouldn't make it have more. I pointed out this interaction wouldn't be the case if the ki got denser.

After this you said the concept of ki density never came up before and talked about characters calling a ki big,

My point then was this dose not necessarily need to imply the ki is literally taking up more space in the bodies or the bodies somehow has more space in it then before, but couldn't just be a metaphor they use for how sensing the ki feels.

Then you bring up more examples about ki taking up space and kioken taking rocketing ki up destorying the body due to having too much ki. Then I pointed out the issue about this vs SS3, SS3 dose not desotry the body like kioken dose yet it has massivly more power increase, I am asking you what your solution is to this and asking if you believe training somehow creates more space inside there soul dispite nothing ever showing different about there soul from others.

Then you seem to just supply more examples of statments of ki being in the bodies which dosen't answer my question.

My solution is simply size was never literal it was a metaphor and so god ki can be denser without the termolgy changing at all.


Edit: my premise is based on ki being soul energy (the yardratians in the moro ark) therefore like a soul it dosen't necessarily need to take uo physical space even if too much can still stressful and overextend your body
 
Last edited:
Darkmon_cns said:
Then I pointed out the issue about this vs SS3, SS3 dose not desotry the body like kioken dose yet it has massivly more power increase, I am asking you what your solution is to this
Click to expand...
Super Saiyan 3 is a transformation. Kaio-ken is not. Kaio-ken multiplies your normal Ki level. Super Saiyan 3 increases your current power by drawing upon your potential via physical transformation, enabling your body to temporarily awaken and control the dormant power you keep hidden inside, hundreds of times greater than your base level, at the cost of draining your physical stamina.
 
I honestly feel bad for Goku. Hes like a big fish surrounded by massive orcas and blue whales. His only real advantage is that he had elite trainers from the start and learned to train smart. Those "bigger fish" didnt have that luxury ... and honestly, at their leve .... they dont even need the same training Goku had. In my headcanon, they only need to be good enough in skills A, B, and C, while focusing entirely on mastering skills X, Y, and Z. But this here is more a what if direction ...

Just look at Vegeta... I cant post the scans right now, but Vegeta has him beaten in terms of raw talent, years of experience, and the sheer number of deadly battles (60,000+). He simply has the better genes. In their first fight, he lacked Ki sensing, but IMO thats like having good positioning in a video game... its just one specific subset of skill, not the whole picture. There are other attributes just as good or even better. Vegeta was simply the deadlier fighter. But Vegeta has flaws, just like the other top Saiyans like Broly and Gohan.

Just imagine if Vegeta, Broly, Gohan, or even Frieza had followed Goku’s training path since day one?? XD

Not trying to shit on Goku!!! What he lacks, he makes up for with smart training and being more stubborn than a mule :--)
 
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