All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Because it’s true. Your verse has bypassed like half the standards and scrutiny that literally every other verse is subject to simply because it’s Dragon Ball including this one about multipliers. It’s about time someone tried to curb some of the wank here

Also damn you salty as hell still for my comment, that was a month ago

I’m aware every verse is subject to scrutiny. Believe me I’m not mindless. My comment was more so explaining the scrutiny levels that are without a doubt varied from verse to verse. As much as you’d like to disagree with it and I would to, we both know that it’s true. Unfortunately, being a popular verse can be a double edged sword and an excuse to face lots of scrutiny. Of course, context differs with examples but this is an example that’s quite evident. If you feel as though that’s wank then that’s fine. Each to their own and respectfully.

Salty? I’m not salty. It’s just something that I happened to remember and my memory on a day to day basis is rather well. That’s a really odd thing to assume, I was also coming off as really respectful with my comment but if it’s retaliation that you felt I’m quite confused.

Whatever reason you guys would consider ”valid” to be toxic for isn’t really valid, I can guarantee you that because the toxicity would start if a downgrade was even minor as hell and isn’t even malicious. But hey, Dragon Ball is a holy beacon of perfect scaling I guess

One can argue it is, one can argue it is not. My views are it is valid but to an extent. You need to remember that some users have been on this wiki longer than us and have undergone excessive scrutiny which was transparent then and someways now. Toxicity in a minor upgrade? Fair enough, I don’t think I’ve ever seen it apart from a few memes here and there and maybe some blunt language but toxicity? Hm, I’m not sure. I don’t think either can be considered toxic either, sometimes being blunt is necessary. You also don’t need to make snarky remarks. If you said your point from that sentence you can either finish it or move onto the next without that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's also infamous for changing entire standards cause it managed to qualify for em, so I think it evens out tbh

This happened at least 3 times lol

 

[Gp972]

Ain't Gohan's SSJ full power comparable to or stronger than pre-Zenkai Cell? So SSJ2 Gohan with less than half of his full power being capable of matching (and winning in the manga? Iirc Vegeta interfering is Anime exclusive) against a post-Zenkai fully charged Kame Hame Ha Cell implies he is at least 2x stronger, doesn't it?

Yes it does

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Saiyans being unable to fight in space really does limit any speed feats they could have.

In reality, Saiyans can withstand the vacuum of space for some time, but Toei and Toyotaro prefer not to do so because it would require too many backgrounds to draw, and constantly drawing planets exploding would be difficult for them.

 

[Breadbear83]

In reality, Saiyans can withstand the vacuum of space for some time, but Toei and Toyotaro prefer not to do so because it would require too many backgrounds to draw, and constantly drawing planets exploding would be difficult for them.

"Yo android 17, animation is on budget, let's take this guy to king Kai planet background, i remember animators once saved a lot of budget there"

 

[StrymULTRA]

Hypertimeline standard right ? Yeah the verse made a whole new rule cuz of that

That was Ben 10 actually.

 

[TiltedFN]

The stacks are the problem tho. What's the narrative reason as to why Android 17 is x2000 faster than beginning of Z Goku besides Ig shonen power cliffing?

It's honestly baffling that you're asking this question. "Why is Android 17 way faster than other characters?"

 

[Saqphire]

Why is Android 17 way faster than other characters?

It's a valid question.

 

[TiltedFN]

It's a valid question.

No. It really isn't. Anybody who would ask something like this is larping. They simply haven't read the story.

 

[Breadbear83]

It's honestly baffling that you're asking this question. "Why is Android 17 way faster than other characters?"

At least the original power levels don't prove characters have gotten thousands, nearly a million times stronger since classic DB/early dbz?

From with how Roshi has a power level of 139 in Saiyan saga, and ssj1 Goku has 150 million

Even if we don't straight up use the power levels like this to give multiplier, narratively they are supposed to show this power gap of at least several thousands of times

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's honestly baffling that you're asking this question. "Why is Android 17 way faster than other characters?"

No shit he's faster. I'm saying why it's imperative for the "themes and such" of the story for him to be a gazillion times faster or whatever. That's what the multiplier standards want you to prove as dumb as it sounds. That's why we shouldn't bother with it and should just calc the Daima stuff already.

 

[TiltedFN]

Did you guys somehow miss this? I think that gathering evidence on why the multipliers are fundamental for the story progression at some parts to the point that without them the story wouldn't make sense is key to refute the thread.

The thing is, they're asking for feats to back up the ratings since they can't accept the story's blatant multipliers. I'm pretty sure this exact thing was pointed out. One would be factually incorrect in denying Dragon Ball's multipliers. "No feat=cap".

 

[Saqphire]

No. It really isn't. Anybody who would ask something like this is larping. They simply haven't read the story.

Then you wouldn't have a problem responding if it was so obvious, hmm?

 

[Robo432343]

its not that hard to find a comparable feat gng
like the solar flare for example

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

its not that hard to find a comparable feat gng
like the solar flare for example

No one has dodged the Solar Flare even in DBS, what are we calcing lol

 

[TiltedFN]

No shit he's faster. I'm saying why it's imperative for the "themes and such" of the story for him to be a gazillion times faster or whatever. That's what the multiplier standards want you to prove as dumb as it sounds. That's why we shouldn't bother with it and should just calc the Daima stuff already.

Daima literally does little for us here. And it's imperative to the narrative since these characters LITERALLY powerup all throughout the story and blitz these insanely faster characters all the time. THAT is important for the story. A story where one of the main themes is self improvement and marks power progression. And we already have multiple statements that absolutely would count as feats to back up the ratings.

 

[Robo432343]

No one has dodged the Solar Flare even in DBS, what are we calcing lol

at least its better than trying to find a timeframe for manga buu/cell

 

[TiltedFN]

Then you wouldn't have a problem responding if it was so obvious, hmm?

If you were paying attention you would see I absolutely did reply. I used up my three messages and then left for a little bit. While you, on the other hand cry every time Dragon Ball gets an upgrade, complaining about it getting special treatment based on uhhh..nothing.

 

[AmonInChains]

chill out bro

 

[TiltedFN]

chill out bro

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Daima literally does little for us here.

SSJ4 Goku has a very blatant MFTL+ feat, like on-screen blatant without any interpretive nonsense, and even with the "ultimate villain" wank Gomah has going on rn, Adult Goku is around Vegito's level of power, and would scale to him. Like come on lol

And it's imperative to the narrative since these characters LITERALLY powerup all throughout the story and blitz these insanely faster characters all the time. THAT is important for the story. A story where one of the main themes is self improvement and marks power progression.

Yeah, shonen power cliffing. They tried that in the thread, we know it ain't enough.

It resulting in characters being more powerful against previous opponents, that clearly doesn't qualify, given how that exact reasoning was said to only help with low multipliers. And mere "attention being drawn to it" also shouldn't matter, since that's just establishing it.

 

[Saqphire]

its not that hard to find a comparable feat gng
like the solar flare for example

Mind you, other than attack speed, Dragon Ball's manga doesn't have solid feats beyond FTL+ - MFTL

If you were paying attention you would see I absolutely did reply. I used up my three messages and then left for a little bit. While you, on the other hand cry every time Dragon Ball gets an upgrade, complaining about it getting special treatment based on uhhh..nothing.

Tfw this literally proves my point I laid out earlier. Also what I talked about was why C17 was faster than Z Goku + why that speed difference is a gazillion times (the multipliers are the ones put into question)

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Why don't we use the scene where Goku reacts to the Kamehameha? Sorry for the Portuguese scan I don't have an English version here.

 

[Saqphire]

Why don't we use the scene where Goku reacts to the Kamehameha? Sorry for the Portuguese scan I don't have an English version here.

Calc stacking

 

[TiltedFN]

SSJ4 Goku has a very blatant MFTL+ feat, like on-screen blatant without any interpretive nonsense, and even with the "ultimate villain" wank Gomah has going on rn, Adult Goku is around Vegito's level of power, and would scale to him. Like come on lol

A feat that..applies to Daima 4ku only? Real helpful. As opposed to us being given a time frame on Buu's destruction of the universe? Which people gaslight themselves into believing it'd take millions of years lol. Post Buu Saga characters would be beyond anything in the Buu Saga since Gomah is literally the strongest villain. So can you explain to me how this would be the case? I'm curious.

Yeah, shonen power cliffing. They tried that in the thread, we know that ain't enough.

Clearly. Which is why I've been arguing for other stuff.

 

[TiltedFN]

Tfw this literally proves my point I laid out earlier. Also what I talked about was why C17 was faster than Z Goku + why that speed difference is a gazillion times (the multipliers are the ones put into question)

Nothing you said here proves anything. To me, it just seems like you dodged me calling out your annoying behavior and then responding with something irrelevant. I'll assume you responded to the wrong post. Otherwise, I have zero idea what you were going for here.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Making super Kia canon is still a choice I consider utter nonesense

 

[Saqphire]

Nothing you said here proves anything. To me, it just seems like you dodged me calling out your annoying behavior and then responding with something irrelevant. I'll assume you responded to the wrong post. Otherwise, I have zero idea what you were going for here.

Dawg all I asked u was to prove why Android 17 would be faster than Z Goku (and a gazillion times faster at that) and it shouldn't be hard to explain if it's that obvious. "You haven't read the manga", "your behaviour is annoying" and "asking that question is just baffling" aren't valid responses at all + the multipliers are what's in question. Does C17 have a feat making him a gazillion times faster?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

A feat that..applies to Daima 4ku only? Real helpful. As opposed to us being given a time frame on Buu's destruction of the universe? Which people gaslight themselves into believing it'd take millions of years lol. Post Buu Saga characters would be beyond anything in the Buu Saga since Gomah is literally the strongest villain. So can you explain to me how this would be the case? I'm curious.

Gomah. He was going blow for blow with SSJ4 Adult Goku. The entire strategy on removing his third Eye hinged on Piccolo landing those 3 hits to the back of his head. That plan would make 0 sense if Piccolo was Relativistic while Gomah was billions upon billions of times faster than light. They're not equal in speed obviously but there's CLEARLY relativity there. This relativity supports our Buu Saga rating. It's not rocket science.

Like I'm no psychic but betting it all on this Buu stuff that the staff clearly ain't a fan of, is not going to work. Straight-up.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Dawg all I asked u was to prove why Android 17 would be faster than Z Goku (and a gazillion times faster at that) and it shouldn't be hard to explain if it's that obvious. "You haven't read the manga", "your behaviour is annoying" and "asking that question is just baffling" aren't valid responses at all + the multipliers are what's in question. Does C17 have a feat making him a gazillion times faster?

I mean freiza using 1% of his power to beat goku
Later goku got strong enough to fight him at 100%and even stronger... that covers all but 20 fold in one fight. Start counting kioken levels goku had passed already and...uaa you got something so blatant you have have acutivly ignore the logic of the franchise not to count it.

 

[Saqphire]

I mean freiza using 1% of his power to beat goku
Later goku got strong enough to fight him at 100%and even stronger... that covers all but 20 fold in one fight. Start counting kioken levels goku had passed already and...uaa you got something so blatant you have have acutivly ignore the logic of the franchise not to count it.

See, at least this was an explanation.

 

[TiltedFN]

Dawg all I asked u was to prove why Android 17 would be faster than Z Goku

I don't have to prove it since the story speaks for itself. Android 17 INDEED is faster than any Goku up to the point of his post HTC self using the most basic scaling chain imaginable. No. Actually, just reading would help.

(and a gazillion times faster at that)

Multipliers, narrative, common sense. That's what. You see, there isn't actually a counterargument for him not being that much faster. It's just incredulity on your part since you didn't see these characters traveling a gillion light years on panel. That's not a you problem.

and it shouldn't be hard to explain if it's that obvious.

It is obvious. Most should be able to conclude that Android 17 is absurdly more powerful than like BoZ Goku

"You haven't read the manga", "your behaviour is annoying" and "asking that question is just baffling" aren't valid responses at all

Go ahead and ignore how you are the one who comes in her complaining about Dragon Ball supposedly avoiding standards (factually incorrect), and getting away with more than it should. That's a part that I also responded to. That wouldn't of been needed if you didn't comment it in the first place. But you did, so you have no right to get mad about someone calling you out on that. It's you who is indulging in this antagonistic behavior. Stop playing the victim. You ask me to prove why Android 17 is faster than a much weaker version of Goku and expect people to actually take that seriously. Lol.

+ the multipliers are what's in question. Does C17 have a feat making him a gazillion times faster?

Yeah he does. Blitzing characters far far faster than other characters the perform a feat. And yes, we do have multiple feats that can actually be used.

• Frieza was going to fly back to his Frieza Force base after defeating Goku on a dying Namek which requires high travel speed.
• Ginyu force was able to blitz Gohan, Vegeta, and Krillin's Ki sense when they were able to detect them flying in through Namek on ships which can cross entire quadrants of the universe very quickly.
• Beyond just C17. Cell has universal statements, even using the maximum time frame would get super high results
• Buu being stated to be capable of destroying the universe like 10 times. We have actual time frames that acan be used for him to actually do something like this. Such Elder Kai's life span, Goku's life span, and Beerus' awakening according to the Kai's

And the fact remains that these aren't actually needed You just want to see a feat on screen or you can't believe it. Adhering to the standards or not, it seems like you actually believe this which is nonsense.

 

[TiltedFN]

Gomah. He was going blow for blow with SSJ4 Adult Goku. The entire strategy on removing his third Eye hinged on Piccolo landing those 3 hits to the back of his head. That plan would make 0 sense if Piccolo was Relativistic while Gomah was billions upon billions of times faster than light. They're not equal in speed obviously but there's CLEARLY relativity there. This relativity supports our Buu Saga rating. It's not rocket science.

Like I'm no psychic but betting it all on this Buu stuff that the staff clearly ain't a fan of, is not going to work. Straight-up.

What are you even doing? This is just basic powerscaling. They are asking for FEATS that support the rating.

 

[Saqphire]

I don't have to prove it since the story speaks for itself. Android 17 INDEED is faster than any Goku up to the point of his post HTC self using the most basic scaling chain imaginable. No. Actually, just reading would help.

It is obvious. Most should be able to conclude that Android 17 is absurdly more powerful than like BoZ Goku

You ask me to prove why Android 17 is faster than a much weaker version of Goku and expect people to actually take that seriously. Lol.

Yeah I'm asking because it shouldn't be hard to explain if it's obvious and it speaks for itself. Deadmon at least made an explanation of some sort

Multipliers, narrative, common sense. That's what. You see, there isn't actually a counterargument for him not being that much faster. It's just incredulity on your part since you didn't see these characters traveling a gillion light years on panel. That's not a you problem.

Multipliers is what's put into question, the narrative nor common sense dont need to support him being octillions of times faster

Go ahead and ignore how you are the one who comes in her complaining about Dragon Ball supposedly avoiding standards (factually incorrect), and getting away with more than it should.

Because it's true. Multipliers having the Z manga characters' combat speed in the billion times the speed of light for years is one of them depite them having no feats of the sort which is against multiplier standards. Yall have to use Daima's attack speed feat to justify that and even then it wouldn't be that sufficient.

Yeah he does. Blitzing characters far far faster than other characters the perform a feat. And yes, we do have multiple feats that can actually be used.

• Frieza was going to fly back to his Frieza Force base after defeating Goku on a dying Namek which requires high travel speed.

• Ginyu force was able to blitz Gohan, Vegeta, and Krillin's Ki sense when they were able to detect them flying in through Namek on ships which can cross entire quadrants of the universe very quickly.

Timeframe? "Very quickly" isn't an indicator of much of anything really.

• Beyond just C17. Cell has universal statements, even using the maximum time frame would get super high results

• Buu being stated to be capable of destroying the universe like 10 times. We have actual time frames that acan be used for him to actually do something like this. Such Elder Kai's life span, Goku's life span, and Beerus' awakening according to the Kai's

Both were rejected by Data for being too vague (which I agree, using both presupposes 3-4 things) + the concept of using Beerus in a statement that didn't account for him during writing is just crazy. Eden's correct in saying that banking on these statements aren't sufficient at all.

 

[Robo432343]

Mind you, other than attack speed, Dragon Ball's manga doesn't have solid feats beyond FTL+ - MFTL

I'm sure there are other ftl combat speed feats apart from the buu and cell stuff (unlikely staff gonna accept the timeframe for that)
There's SSJ2 Gohan firing a Kamehameha into space maybe?

 

[Saqphire]

I'm sure there are other ftl combat speed feats apart from the buu and cell stuff (unlikely staff gonna accept the timeframe for that)
There's SSJ2 Gohan firing a Kamehameha into space maybe?

Buu and Cell stuff dont even need to be combat speed either for the record because the statements are giga vague. Also if you mean Gohan reacting to Cell's laser then it's calc stacking

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Now it all makes sense, many people had been debating the multipliers for days, and this CRT really opened my eyes.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Now it all makes sense, many people had been debating the multipliers for days, and this CRT really opened my eyes.

...it dose?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

What are you even doing? This is just basic powerscaling. They are asking for FEATS that support the rating.

It's a feat that scales to lads around the Buu saga levels, unless you're saying Daima Piccolo is faster than Vegito???

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's a feat that scales to lads around the Buu saga levels, unless you're saying Daima Piccolo is faster than Vegito???

Like do you think they're going to go "Oh yeah the Buu stuff makes sense, you now have to prove that the multiplier stacks make sense for lads weaker than Buu."
No obviously not.