All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[ExcelsisBerny]

This argument does not work because the premise of powerscaling is that we assume that fiction is a documentary of an imagined world

Ahh, the irony!

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Ahh, the irony!

I mean, without it, powerscaling ceases to function. Ink on paper doesn't have hax, speed, durability, lifting strength, power, intelligence, or anything.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I mean, without it, powerscaling ceases to function. Ink on paper doesn't have hax, speed, durability, lifting strength, power, intelligence, or anything.

Yeah, that's the point of the reductio. Glad you got it!

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Yeah, that's the point of the reductio. Glad you got it!

gem

 

[Qawsedf234]

Incorrect, repeating arguments that have already been said does nothing.

It shows you understand the material. Its why the rule was put in place, because people did exactly as I described and were unable to properly defend the outside source when questioned about it.

The rule does not disallowed outside sources. It disallows people from solely using outside sources without any input on their own.

Of course there is. Off the top of my head:

• Anything that requires denying or making up shit is wrong

That's not an argument or viewpoint. That fabrication of evidence

• Anything that is an inherent logical contradiction (Every tier above High 3-A, with the exception of High 1-A+ and 0) is wrong

There's no logical contradiction for a higher dimensional being or the existence of higher dimensional beings. Even Outerversal beings and R>F don't possess inherent logical contradictions, they just operate on higher settings of reality.

• Any methodology that is internally inconsistent is wrong

True

• Any methodology that ignores falsification is wrong

How does one falsify a fictional work? Like no one can eat a Devil Fruit to mimic the users or train like Goku to fly. If an argument follows logical throughlines and has the ability to support itself, you have the ability to make a CRT or make a positional claim

These are some of the most objective parts in powerscaling. Claiming Goku is 50x infinity level should warrant you an immediate ban from all forums for mathematical illiteracy, alas the world is not ideal.

The multiplier section on the FAQ covers this

Q: How do multipliers affect Tier 2 and Tier 1 ratings?
A: As stated in the Tiering System note section, a multiplier, even an infinite one, cannot bridge the gap between a universal or dimensional difference. Having said that, a multiplier or a scaling chain could place a character above the baseline version of that respective tier. So, for example, a Low 2-C character could not become 2-C with a multiplier, but they could be above the baseline for that respective tier. When making matches or constructing profiles, it is important to take this into account to make sure how strong a character may be for their respective tier.

Goku is abkve the baseline for 2-C, but there's no real way to quantify him as 50x infinity.

Ah, so you agree that consensus and truth are orthogonal.

They are related, but we don't use an objective truth system because it's not feasible for fictional works. What we have is multiple competing viewpoints and we pick one to be the most valid one. The recent DBZ CRT was site rules vs a 86 trillion multiplier chain. We went with site standards over the previous viewpoint of chainscaling multipliers.

Both are positions that have validity to them, we just switched which one we considered to be the most valid.

Yeah, I don't think the forums on VS wiki should exist.

Lol what. It what makes VSBW itself.

I mean if you want people to work on self-made profiles with no outside input, there's plenty of other power scaling websites that do that.

If you truly don't like the fudmentals of the site, then it may not be the best place for you.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

It shows you understand the material. Its why the rule was put in place, because people did exactly as I described and were unable to properly defend the outside source when questioned about it.

The rule does not disallowed outside sources. It disallows people from solely using outside sources without any input on their own.

what does 'input on their own look like'

That's not an argument or viewpoint. That fabrication of evidence

An argument relying on that is ultimately one that's automatically incorrect.

There's no logical contradiction for a higher dimensional being or the existence of higher dimensional beings. Even Outerversal beings and R>F don't possess inherent logical contradictions, they just operate on higher settings of reality.

What's logically contradictory is the existence of larger infinities as applied to physical measurement like mass, density, and volume. There can be exactly one size of infinity and it's just +infinity.

True

Good

How does one falsify a fictional work? Like no one can eat a Devil Fruit to mimic the users or train like Goku to fly. If an argument follows logical throughlines and has the ability to support itself, you have the ability to make a CRT or make a positional claim

Falsification refers to the idea that any theory about a preexisting body of work (whether it be real life or an imagined world) must be in theory be able to be proven false by counteracting evidence. For instance the theory that Goku is gay can be proven false by showing Goku attracted to Chi-Chi, who is female. A theory from the text that cannot be proven false through evidence from the text that is to the contrary is ultimately a meaningless theory as it makes no predictions.

The multiplier section on the FAQ covers this

Goku is abkve the baseline for 2-C, but there's no real way to quantify him as 50x infinity.

Yeah and Tier 2 Goku as a whole is wrong because of the infinity shenanigans.

They are related, but we don't use an objective truth system because it's not feasible for fictional works.

So is Goku 2-C or not? Is there a truth of the matter about Goku being 2-C or not?

What we have is multiple competing viewpoints and we pick one to be the most valid one.

What is valid? If there's no objective truth then there's nothing valid and arguments don't and can't disprove or prove anything. Why do I see people arguing in CRTs?

The recent DBZ CRT was site rules vs a 86 trillion multiplier chain. We went with site standards over the previous viewpoint of chainscaling multipliers.

Both are positions that have validity to them, we just switched which one we considered to be the most valid.


Lol what. It what makes VSBW itself.

They're very toxic and don't really serve a purpose.

I mean if you want people to work on self-made profiles with no outside input, there's plenty of other power scaling websites that do that.

Yeah, like CSAP.

If you truly don't like the fudmentals of the site, then it may not be the best place for you.

Truth be told I was going to request a ban after seeing how badly I jive with the site's culture and how I have like 1000000000 disagreements with the site itself.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

They are related, but we don't use an objective truth system because it's not feasible for fictional works. What we have is multiple competing viewpoints and we pick one to be the most valid one.

Yeah, fictional scaling cannot be "objective." The point of scaling is simply comparing different propositions and choosing the one that is more propositionally justified.

The "objective scaling" stuff is just laughable.

 

[ALEPHGOAT]

Yeah, fictional scaling cannot be "objective." The point of scaling is simply comparing different propositions and choosing the one that is more propositionally justified.

This is extremely contradictory. If there's no objectivity, how can one proposition be more justified than another? Doesn't "more justified" imply a standard outside personal opinion?

The "objective scaling" stuff is just laughable.

I agree. Objective powerscaling doesn't exist. It's like chess. The rules are based on nothing but within the rules the decisions, outcomes, etc, are objective.

I hope you enjoy your time at the place where the founders murdered their own mother!

Based.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

This is extremely contradictory. If there's no objectivity, how can one proposition be more justified than another? Doesn't "more justified" imply a standard outside personal opinion?

It is not contradictory. The relative "objectivity" of powerscaling is strongly contingent on the system you use, and using that system as a basis, you can evaluate things by following its directives.

If there is no reference system, the very act of scaling loses meaning. That is why there is no perfect system, and there never will be, because there is no empirical framework that applies to every possible system in fiction. The system is built around conveniences that make the hobby fun.

We are not NASA.

 

[Qawsedf234]

what does 'input on their own look like'

Off tbe top of my head:

[Link to Outside Source]
Summary of the key points of the source:

• Assertion A - Include scans
• Assertion B - Link to specific clip
• Assertion C - Bases on A and B, C should be true as well

We should change X things to match Y proposals based on the evidence provided. If more context is needed you can watch the full video or ask for clarification.

Doesn't take any additional work over a self-made CRT. It just takes more work than dropping a power acaling video/blog and saying read this and apply the changes.

An argument relying on that is ultimately one that's automatically incorrect.

Sure, but then it's either not a valid viewpoint or one that's the least valid. Not all views are treated as being equal and we go with the one the consensus concludes is the most valid.

When things were proven as being made up like Devil May Cry's MMORPG scans, those were all automatically disbarred and dismissed for that reason.

What's logically contradictory is the existence of larger infinities as applied to physical measurement like mass, density, and volume. There can be exactly one size of infinity and it's just +infinity.

You have have a cube if infinite size be contained within a tesseract of semi-infinite size. You're limiting your views based on a three dimensional understanding of reality and not considering higher dimensional cosmologies. IRL they're not proven, but in fictional work they're regularly shown as being real and tangible features.

Falsification refers to the idea that any theory about a preexisting body of work (whether it be real life or an imagined world) must be in theory be able to be proven false by counteracting evidence. For instance the theory that Goku is gay can be proven false by showing Goku attracted to Chi-Chi, who is female. A theory from the text that cannot be proven false through evidence from the text that is to the contrary is ultimately a meaningless theory as it makes no predictions.

The site isn't about making predictions. The core pages are assertions of powers or abilities based on shown characteristics. You're asking for a model of a character, when the site is more or less defining what we see of a character. Your core idea of what we are just doesn't match with what we actually do. Which is why you think we're contradicting ourselves when we aren't the majority of the time.

So is Goku 2-C or not? Is there a truth of the matter about Goku being 2-C or not?

Yeah and Tier 2 Goku as a whole is wrong because of the infinity shenanigans.

We considered Goku to be 2-C currently. If you want to make him 3-A you're free to make that CRT. I disagree on the notion that Goku isn't Tier 2 however, because of site standards regarding the Tier and how we index Goku's showings.

What is valid? If there's no objective truth then there's nothing valid and arguments don't and can't disprove or prove anything. Why do I see people arguing in CRTs?

You're thinking from a wrong viewpoint again. Just talking to you, you come across as wanting one invincible view thar can never be challenged when that's not what the site is about.

Validity is looking at what's presented, seeing if the argument makes logical sense, and then weighing it against current standards. If it not as solid as what we have it'll be rejected, if people belive it is better than what we have it becomes the new norm. But nothing is solidified on the site. In ten years profiles that are rated as they are now can easily undergo massive shifts in ratings based on public evolution of standards and power scaling practices.

Truth be told I was going to request a ban after seeing how badly I jive with the site's culture and how I have like 1000000000 disagreements with the site itself.

Well jope you enjoy yourself then.

---

@DaReaperMan Not the thread for that

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I mean, this is basically the same as having a player who disagrees with the rules of the game.

The rules are what make the game that specific game. They are an important part of what defines it.

There is no problem with disagreeing with the rules, because, as I said, everything in this hobby can be criticized, since a perfect system is a utopia on the same level as conscious artificial intelligence. The problem is trying to force your rules onto a game that already has established rules, without taking into account the factors that led the game masters to choose those specific rules in the first place.

That is why I advised you to simply create your own game, and that’s it.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

This is extremely contradictory. If there's no objectivity, how can one proposition be more justified than another? Doesn't "more justified" imply a standard outside personal opinion?

I agree. Objective powerscaling doesn't exist. It's like chess. The rules are based on nothing but within the rules the decisions, outcomes, etc, are objective.

Based.

Do you know anyone who goes by the name HorySheet by any chance?

 

[Breadbear83]

All the stuff that was sent here so far

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:StarShooter80/Goku_outspeeds_Ginyu%27s_Body_Swap

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/Dragon_Ball:_Perfect_Cell%27s_Kamehameha_speed_feat

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Gilad_Hyperstar/Dragon_Ball_Z:_Cell_destroys_the_Solar_System

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Gp972/Cell%27s_kamehameha_reachs_the_sun

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Gp972/Cell%27s_kamehameha

DBZ Speed calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Gp972/Buutenks_speed

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LegendariumOfLies/Dragon_Ball:_The_Speed_Of_Genki-Dama (I heard this one was already accepted)

The genkidama feat (quadrillions of FTL), does Gohan, goten and others reacting to the energy gathering leaving earth to space (to cross the universe all the way to Goku) counts as reacting to the speed? It immediately leaves at high speed (because of cinematic time, you don't see them crossing interlgalactic distances in a second):

(This is in dbz kakarot, which I recall being accepted as expanding the manga canonicity, in Chapter 515 they also see the energy leaving earth)

Btw the calc could use dbz kakarot timeframe over the Anime one too

 

[Darkmon_cns]

None of this refutes my point: that truth is not dependent on consensus. You also haven't addressed the paradox: if consensus = truth, then going against the consensus = wrong, meaning any new CRT that goes against the consensus = automatically wrong.

The system your seemingly insisting they use to not be "self counterditory" is awful that would he a horrible website. Sometimes you have to get out of the ass of philosophy and actually do what works instead of what sounds good in isolation.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Not to mention that guy mentioned he intentionally manipulates his aurgment so the opponent would always appear wrong if they operated in good faith.... I genuinely believe doing stuff like that should be ban worthy.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

You guys hear about those dark web mystery boxes?

 

[Hiryu-Z]

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Vegeta solos the entire Invincible verse, viltrumites need 4 people just to destroy a planet, so without that they can't even compete with Raditz.

 

[AguilaR202]

Acceleration really destroys most scaling for travel speed feats.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Acceleration really destroys most scaling for travel speed feats.

Ya... arms for hand to hand combat can't really accelerate like a body could so if you want to prove, even assuming the hands can move as fast as there full body travel speed, that the hands could reach those speeds accounting for acceleration- the feat would basically need to cross any given distance in like one second. Sense that's generally the only way to prove proportional travel time otherwise it be alot of math with a huge range and we'd probably end uo using the conservative end

 

[SomebodyData]

Removing anime-exclusive content from manga Dragon Ball - Staff Only

This CRT is specifically about the Dragon Ball manga profiles and the separation of the anime in most cases. Got perms from @SomebodyData Dragon Ball manga profiles should not use anime-only visuals, expansion, or quantification when the manga already has its own depiction of the feat, unless...

vsbattles.com

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Removing anime-exclusive content from manga Dragon Ball - Staff Only

This CRT is specifically about the Dragon Ball manga profiles and the separation of the anime in most cases. Got perms from @SomebodyData Dragon Ball manga profiles should not use anime-only visuals, expansion, or quantification when the manga already has its own depiction of the feat, unless...

vsbattles.com

Would this affect the namic dragonballs going to earth feat? I don't think so, so speed should be fine

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

By itself, that doesn't inherently mean much of anything, but it makes Roshi's value, which stems not from the source material but rather inflated anime-derived values extremely suspect when they push what is very clearly depicted as moon destruction into absurdly high results, and make the later Moon-to-planet progression functionally meaningless.

This do just be a problem with KE calcs in general, or Ig the names we give Tiers, I still have not seen a single moon bust end up at 5-C.
Doesn't really work for DB either where Earth is a super tiny planet and average planets are like 5-A too.

 

[SomebodyData]

Would this affect the namic dragonballs going to earth feat? I don't think so, so speed should be fine

Nah, speed feats are fine. Think the only thing to really worry about is a minor downgrade for Roshi's moon feat.

 

[Robo432343]

i am heartbroken that the most iconic moon level feat in fiction has been inflated to ridiculous degrees like this
i mean this is...i cant do this anymore...i have to go.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Are y'all planning to split continuities too? It looks like that from how the thread's presenting itself.

 

[KingTempest]

Are y'all planning to split continuities too? It looks like that from how the thread's presenting itself.

...

Dragon Ball

For detailed information about this series from the Dragon Ball Wiki, you can click here. Dragon Ball (Japanese: ドラゴンボール, Hepburn: Doragon Bōru) is a Japanese manga series written and illustrated by Akira Toriyama. Originally serialized in Shueisha's shōnen manga magazine Weekly Shōnen Jump from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Dragon Ball (Toei)

For detailed information about this series from the Dragon Ball Wiki, you can click here. The official TV adaptation of the Dragon Ball manga continuity, the main Dragon Ball Z anime follows a relatively similar plot to the manga, with Son Goku and his friends and children protecting the Earth...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Darkmon_cns]

i am heartbroken that the most iconic moon level feat in fiction has been inflated to ridiculous degrees like this
i mean this is...i cant do this anymore...i have to go.

Inflated is hard way to put it considered no on screen moon destruction feat is ever just baseline moon level as mentioned before. Really giving it baseline is under playing it.

Using the anime as a visual aid for the calculation is a standards things. So if your working under a standard where that is ok if it is closely following the source matrial as we were before it was never inflated. That standard is now being changed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

...

Dragon Ball

For detailed information about this series from the Dragon Ball Wiki, you can click here. Dragon Ball (Japanese: ドラゴンボール, Hepburn: Doragon Bōru) is a Japanese manga series written and illustrated by Akira Toriyama. Originally serialized in Shueisha's shōnen manga magazine Weekly Shōnen Jump from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Dragon Ball (Toei)

For detailed information about this series from the Dragon Ball Wiki, you can click here. The official TV adaptation of the Dragon Ball manga continuity, the main Dragon Ball Z anime follows a relatively similar plot to the manga, with Son Goku and his friends and children protecting the Earth...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Better wording: Is there a plan to split the cosmology per continuity given that rn it's a composite?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Removing anime-exclusive content from manga Dragon Ball - Staff Only

This CRT is specifically about the Dragon Ball manga profiles and the separation of the anime in most cases. Got perms from @SomebodyData Dragon Ball manga profiles should not use anime-only visuals, expansion, or quantification when the manga already has its own depiction of the feat, unless...

vsbattles.com

Though did this really have to be a Staff Thread?

Is every DB CRT going to be a Staff Thread from now on lol

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

What did the DB supporters do to the guy who does the calculations? The guy wants to downgrade DB every day, it's like Fuji taking down God of War and Devil May Cry (in terms of downgrades).

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Turning a feat that was clearly moon level in the manga into planet level just because the anime shows more exaggerated visuals overstates the original intent.

Butch Hartman, when watching a Death Battle episode involving Danny Phantom, one of the series he wrote, was surprised at Danny vaporizing a golf area being almost 560 Tons of TNT in power. It was clear that it was not the intent of a feat vaporizing a chunk of soil being comparable to the power to blow up multiple city blocks, but it is if we actually take in physics and the actual implications of the feat.

99% of our calcs go against authorial intent lol, I bet you not a single one of our cloud feats were intended to be that strong lol

 

[Qawsedf234]

99% of our calcs go against authorial intent lol, I bet you not a single one of our cloud feats were intended to be that strong lol

Cloud feats should be nuked tbh. Moving a Nimbus cloud should not make you Cuba-busting without other stuff in my personal view.

 

[Breadbear83]

Removing anime-exclusive content from manga Dragon Ball - Staff Only

This CRT is specifically about the Dragon Ball manga profiles and the separation of the anime in most cases. Got perms from @SomebodyData Dragon Ball manga profiles should not use anime-only visuals, expansion, or quantification when the manga already has its own depiction of the feat, unless...

vsbattles.com

Nah bro I was writing the comment when it was a content revision thread but it was changed to staff discussion without me changing the page again

Don't know if i want to ask for perms and write it again

 

[Saqphire]

Cloud feats should be nuked tbh. Moving a Nimbus cloud should not make you Cuba-busting without other stuff in my personal view.

What if you made a staff thread about it? I'm sure people here would support it

 

[Breadbear83]

Ok my comment was like this:

Dunno about anime canonicity, but I don't think Roshis moon busting feat is merely baseline moon level

Isn't feats about destroying something not neccesarily at the level of their namesake tier?:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/T...irements for these tiers are arbitrary values.

In manga, both Roshi and Piccolo destroy the moon without leaving anything of it to be seen: https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/tWynyUCR2E

This should made the feats somewhat comparable

Also, those planetary statements are vague in the sense that calcing them would reach varying tiers due to they being all assumptions of lowball-highballs

My point is, I don't think toriyama nor Toei considered that destroying the moon/earth/planets can have varying results dependant of the details of those feats, even less they fitting our tiers for them

Dunno what alternative to use besides baseline moon level, but Is the manga feat really not calcable to above baseline moon level?


(If some staff member sees my comment worthy to post it, I'd share it there)

 

[Damage3245]

Cloud feats should be nuked tbh. Moving a Nimbus cloud should not make you Cuba-busting without other stuff in my personal view.

Funny how cloud feats almost always are divorced from the rest of the feats the characters have in most verses, in terms of scale/potency.

 

[Breadbear83]

Removing anime-exclusive content from manga Dragon Ball - Staff Only

This CRT is specifically about the Dragon Ball manga profiles and the separation of the anime in most cases. Got perms from @SomebodyData Dragon Ball manga profiles should not use anime-only visuals, expansion, or quantification when the manga already has its own depiction of the feat, unless...

vsbattles.com

Ok my comment was like this:

Dunno about anime canonicity, but I don't think Roshis moon busting feat is merely baseline moon level

Isn't feats about destroying something not neccesarily at the level of their namesake tier?:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/T...irements for these tiers are arbitrary values.

In manga, both Roshi and Piccolo destroy the moon without leaving anything of it to be seen: https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/s/tWynyUCR2E

This should made the feats somewhat comparable

Also, those planetary statements are vague in the sense that calcing them would reach varying tiers due to they being all assumptions of lowball-highballs

My point is, I don't think toriyama nor Toei considered that destroying the moon/earth/planets can have varying results dependant of the details of those feats, even less they fitting our tiers for them

Dunno what alternative to use besides baseline moon level, but Is the manga feat really not calcable to above baseline moon level?


(If some staff member sees my comment worthy to post it, I'd share it there)

Hey somebodydata think I can post this there? Or think I should change something? It's fine If you don't think the comment supports much the discussion.

 

[Mommyleona]

Cloud feats should be nuked tbh. Moving a Nimbus cloud should not make you Cuba-busting without other stuff in my personal view.

MHA found dead in a ditch

 

[SomebodyData]

Hey somebodydata think I can post this there? Or think I should change something? It's fine If you don't think the comment supports much the discussion.

No offense, but the thread is for the canon debate.

That said you do bring up a good point, maybe we should find a way to calc it using the manga