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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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I wonder why Goku didn't use his Ki immunity to haxes when he was fighting Captain Ginyu, or Gohan and Krillin against Guldo, or Dabura against Babidi, or Vegeta and Goku against Moro, or any of them against Granolah...
You can't "explore the metaphysical aspects of Dragon Ball" while, at the same time, ignoring several plot points contradicted by your ideas. Not to mention that bypassing hax by power is really boring.
That idea sounds like a worse Dragon Ball where, if you are stronger than the opponent, then all fights lose all suspense.
Fezzih_007
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Is easier to write for people who are kinda lazy
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That's actually something I thought about. In DB, characters get stronger throughout a fight due to their reactive evolution, adaptation, and accelerated development. I was thinking that for this AU, the same thing could happen, but instead of it just being AP and durability that's getting boosted, the characters' hax layers will increase as well. This would add an additional factor that the characters would need to consider during the fight, cause if they aren't careful, they'll lose their immunities and resistances.
Edit: I also plan on giving magic in this AU some more complexity. Meaning characters like Moro and babidi are gonna have a more sophisticated arsenal.
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do it then, that's a good power system and the battles are interesting because it's not only power that wins battles, it's mostly tacticsFunny you should say that, cause I have never read HxH
edit: you can also watch the anime if you don't want to read it
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Well, we have examples where ki actually bypass hax with its power alone. Like when Mira resisted Chronoa's time manipulation with his ki power alone, Vegito resisted candy beam because he was so stronger than Buu it didn't affect him, how Jiren resisted Hit's upgraded timeskips with power alone, how Goku and Vegeta's ki nullified magic for Uranai Baba's magic ball, etc. There are many examples of such thing and I think the most logicall explanation for it is the level of power. Like for dimensional shout, the weaker ki users can't use this abillitie, when stronger can. The same thing here, if ki user gets so strong at one point, where time or something manipulation can't affect him. However he can be affected by stronger variations of such abilities or stronger users than him, as ki also makes your haxes stronger
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Ironically, this'd make all Time Power layers invalid, given a quantitative difference (power increase) cannot give you more layers. Not to mention that Time Power can erase entire timelines, where beings far stronger than Chronoa (namely GoDs, Angels, Daishinkan and Zen'oh) reside.
So, pick your poison.
Didn't a guidebook state Vegito created a special barrier for that? So no power difference involved.
Time skips have been consistently shown to only work on people weaker or at most equal to the user, as stated by the manga. It is a mechanic of the technique
C'mon, the "Even I can't predict the outcome of the fight" is clearly a way to create suspense. Similar to the rule of shenron to not affect beings stronger than him.
Plus it is your headcanon that Goku and Vegeta's ki affected Uranai Baba's magic ball, as that is nowhere stated.
Yeah, and that's lame and boring, because once a character has X units of Ki more, you immediately know nothing the weaker does would affect the stronger to turn the tables around.
An important point of Dragon Ball isn't just the big boom booms and increase of power levels, but how weaker characters use certain tactics to overcome stronger characters. Either through sheer skill, or via magical/ki techniques. Just take Roshi scolding Goku in manga ToP for thinking that raw power is everything in a fight and asking if he's forgotten everything his masters told him.
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Well, it would still apply layers as to overpower ki user's resistance you would only need to be atleast comparable to him. And Chronoa in her true form is much stronger than all of them, as she did that in her true form
No, it states about absorbtion, when it just says about candy beam, well...he was so stong not even candy beam could stop him
It's manga only thing, when in anime there is no such statement. Also in manga Hit used an uprgaded version of this technique, when he manipulates time only for the target, which negates the weakness of the ability by being used only for weaker or comparable opponents, but Jiren just negated it with ki
Bro, atleast watch anime once in your life
When Goku and Vegeta where fighting in saiyan saga, Uranai Baba tried to see the fight with her magical ball, but it wasn't working. Roshi explained that because of the enourmous of both fighters, magical abilities of the ball were blocked.That's...how most of fights in DB works btw. It's strange you never noticed this. Even in the first season, there are many fights dedicated by this. Kurillin vs Goku, where the outcome was known when Goku showed a glimpse of his true strenght. All fights against Frieza, All fights against Cell, all fights against Buu, etc.
Um...no. Can you remember atleast one major fight where character/characters won because of the sheer skill/tactic/magic/technique without abusing power creep issue? I can't, because there is almost none. I can remember remember very few moment, and they are not major. Like when Goku and co beated Carrot Rabbit, however Goku just beated him with Nyoi-Bo, bypassing his ability to turn living beings into carrots(such thing can be resisted in Buu saga), so they kinda still used power difference between Goku and the rabbit. In almost every case characters still abused power to win, like in the example you gave from DBS manga. Goku atteined Secret of egoism, which buffed all his stats so he could compete with Jiren, it still used stats difference, nothing else. Also you can remember Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz, however it's a case of power difference, where Piccolo used a technique that increased his pl several times in one point, so he could harm Raditz. There is no special skill and tactic, just sheer stats and overpowering by them
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normalperson is right
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And that contradicts layering because it is quantitative.
Chronoa stronger than Zen'oh? Yeah, sure. I wonder why Chronoa didn't use her "stronger than Zen'oh power" when Beerus got in the time nest and tried to destroy all history. I wonder why characters who scale to Chronoa didn't use the "stronger than Zen'oh power" when they fought Hearts, who was trying to get a power to kill Zen'oh. I wonder why in Fusions they didn't use the "stronger than Beerus" power against the final villain, who explicitely holds a power comparable to Beerus. I wonder why Goku got to train with Daishinkan if Daishinkan is stronger than him and skill doesn't matter in Dragon Ball
Vegito specifically has special characteristics that make him keep his strength when the candy beam is applied, not a Ki thing.
So anime filler? Got it.Bro, atleast watch anime once in your life
Jiren explicitely stomped Goku and Vegeta because he has better Ki control, as stated by Vegeta. Which makes sense, even when we see Jiren's aura overpowering both of their attacks, given the huge power boost Vegeta got just by aligning his body and spirit in Moro arc.
Granolah almost killed Goku, and would've done so if not holding back because of his pressure points technique. Goku's MUI has such a perfect stance it has no pressure points.
In all classic Dragon Ball, fights are based on skill: Goku vs Roshi where the former was copying the style of the latter, Goku vs Tien realizing of the weakness of his technique instantly, both of them using afterimage feints and countering each other, etc.
In the ToP, Roshi literally matched Jiren through sheer skill using his own version of Ultra Instinct to teach Goku, Hit matched Jiren for some time because of his Time Lag technique, Goku defeated Jiren because of his Ultra Instinct granting him the ability to evade attacks instinctively. In the anime, Goku defeated Kefla, who explicitely was stronger than him at the end of the fight, because Ultra Instinct's immense reflexes (i.e., skill). Hell, the entire fight of Goku vs Kale and Caulifla is a huge show of Goku's skill.
Goku almost threw Jiren out of the platform by using a Ki mines tactic
Moro almost defeated Goku, not because he was stronger, but because of his energy absorption technique, power mimicry technique, etc.
Goku was in base holding back against an enemy on the level of his God form through sheer skill, as pointed out on the light novel. Broly's immense adaptation wasn't just ampinh his power, but his skill as well as pointed out in the light novel.
Reducing all Dragon Ball to "the stronger overpowers the weaker and GG" is ignorant over all the plot has established. You can't have read this and be serious when telling me that all that matters in Dragon Ball is big power level
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Since we treat the strongest beings in the universe as angels and Zeno in DBH, would they be above everything else in DBH? Remember, I'm referring to the characters as angels in DBH and Zeno in DBH.
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The first one is from Xenoverse, where Chronoa doesn't has her true form. She is comparable to Aeos, who is comparable to Goku Black is ss3, who pushed Gogeta in SSBE, the same Gogeta(even weaker one, as the fight with Goku Black happened Ultra God Mission) who beated the shit out of Hearts in Universe mission, who was at the time stronger than Zeno, which was stated several times. So she is stronger than Zeno
Maybe because he is specially strong? Like he was stronger than everybody else at the time, so no one was able to even compete with him, so it's listed as "special characteristic" because no one is as strong as him. Otherwise there is no explanation to it, because fusion doesn't grant users abilities except boosted stats.
And? You previously listed Moro and Granolah, who aren't canon for DBS anime, listed Roshi's statement which never existed in manga and applied Hit's timeskip from manga to anime, which wasn't stated the same way.
Jiren was stated to overpower them with his STRENGHT, even when they needed just to gain better ki control it still included gaining better stats. As Jiren wasn't even harmed from Goku's full power attacks in their fight
Granolah was still much stronger than Goku at that time, so he was able to blitz them to attack pressure points. So no, power difference still plays the most major role here
No, you excluded almost all fights with power difference. Goku vs Roshi wasn't fair as Roshi never used his full power against Goku(he didn't even use his full strenght against Tien, which was directly stated). Goku and Tien were relative to each other in strenght, so it's logical to rely not just not power alone in their case. Why didn't you talk about Goku vs Tao, where Goku had to gain more power to just compete with Tao, no skill and haxes would help him against Tao if his ass would be blitzed, which Goku also said kinda. You could menction Goku vs Blue, when Blue used his special abilitie. However against Tao, Blue's ability wasn't able to do a thing as he just resisted it with power alone. Which is kinda another point for me.
Jiren was stated to didn't use his strenght against Roshi and as it was Roshi's version of SoE, then it gave him more stats, which was shown against 3 alien girls, where Roshi, while using his SoE, blocked their attacks with no issue, blitzed and overpowered them, when those girls were stated to be even stronger than him without his SoE.
Bruh, I just mentioned Time Lag as an example for ki resistance as Jiren just broke Time Lag with his ki alone. Goku wasn't able to even harm Jiren with his full power attacks, when SoE just mogged Jiren even in strenght. Clearly not a buff for stats. Goku attacked her off guard with charged kamehameha, so the power difference(now in kamehameha case) was still applied. And in the end of Goku against Kale with Caulifla fight Goku just overpowered them with SSG, nice job.
And Jiren just saved himself with pure stats by jumping from one piece of katchin back to arena, bravo
But when Goku became much stronger he was able to counter Moro's abilities and so Moro needed to became as strong as Goku to compete with him. Again in my favor
Bruh, the first scenes of Goku vs Broly were just plot making Goku stronger than he actually is. As Goku was directly punched by Broly several times in base and survived, the same Broly who beated the shit out of SSG Vegeta. And by this logic Goku is so much surperior than Vegeta, Goku could beat the prince in SSB just by using SS3. So much Vegeta slander won't tollerated
I already talked about it, so I'll just make a small joke about how it would be played if the main point wasn't in getting stronger, but in skill, technique, etc.
Saiyan saga:
Roshi:"Okay, Vegeta, I'm gonna use my skill and haxes on you! GET READY!!!"
Vegeta vaporizes Roshi
Namek saga:"
Goku:"Okay, Frieza, in gravity chamber I wasn't getting stronger, but gaining more haxes and skill! Get ready to die!!!"
Frieza snaps Goku's neck and he dies
Cell saga:
Goku:"I decided to not train our stats in ROSaT, but gain haxes and skill! Get ready, Cell!"
Cell blitzed Goku
Do I need to continue?
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I’m surprised we still give characters a resistance to time manip for overpowering Hit’s time skip since it’s pretty consistent that you just need strength to overcome it
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Notice how you didn't respond to any of the other claims.
Not to mention that even Demigra, who is pushed down by base Goku and way below Beerus on strength, can destroy all history. Or Beerus himself can destroy all of history. Guess Beerus > Zen'oh too.
Baseless headcanon.
Hmm... I wonder what is the difference between anime filler and the content created by the successor of Toriyama with the help of the former.
Argue with the series themselves, not with me.
So Granolah defeated Goku by attacking pressure points, a martial art.
Roshi was fighting against Goku specifically for him not to get confident and was trying to defeat him with martial arts, not raw power.
Tien can deflect Kame Hame Ha, rendering the most useful of Roshi's skillset useless, because of Kiai, a technique.
Yeah, which is what I'm telling you: skill is an important factor in Dragon Ball.
Tao was a skilled assasin. Goku didn't just go to gain more power, he went to train with Karin to also improve his skills.
Anime filler
And guess what is that in Dragon Ball? A martial art.
"Overpowered them with SSG".
Goku used his skill, his techniques to defeat an oponent who was comparable to him in stats in a 2v1. Not overpower them with raw power like you're implying.
You call raw stats to skillfully jump across rocks to reach the arena back? He didn't just jump from the rock to the arena with overwhelming physical strength.
He didn't counter Moro's abilities, he evaded them. not because he was stronger, but because UI, a martial art, let him do so.
A warrior who has never trained needed more strength to compete against a more skilled yet less powerful warrior because otherwise he was useless? Yeah, doesn't prove your point.
Goku himself told Moro if he has never trained on that very arc.
So now what Goku using martial arts is plot, I see.
Not what I'm talking about.
To sum it up, you're telling me, quoting you, that in Dragon Ball:
My point isn't that raw power is irrelevant, but that skill is more relevant than how irrelevant you make it look like.
Of course Goku from the Saiyan Saga cannot beat Frieza from the Frieza saga regardless how much skilled he is. Not because skill is meaningless, but because there is a gap in power no amount of skill can overcome.
But that doesn't render skill useless and make all special skill and tactic meaningless, like you're implying.
We're being told throught the entire series that one shall not only develop their strength leaving aside their skills. Characters who try to do so are always defeated by those who have honed their skill: Frieza, who never trained and was just a prodigy, against SSJ Goku; Broly against base Goku (until the latter catched up, forcing Goku to match his stats); Moro, who again never trained, against MUI Goku; Goku got scolded by Roshi because he thought what you're thinking; Granolah got scolded for just wanting free power without training; and ultimately in the Super Heroes saga we're told how important honing your strength instead of just seeking for more power is.
The point isn't that characters thousands of times stronger and faster can overwhelm the cast. The point is that in Dragon Ball skill is an important factor. Fights of those on a similar level are decided by skill, not by raw, skilless strength.
So:
Not only does this joke make no sense, but also goes against what Dragon Ball tries to establish.
In Saiyan saga Goku went to other world to hone his abilities, learn new martial arts and techniques to help him win the battle. Him getting stronger wasn't the only objective, but a consequence of his training.
In Namek Saga, the same. Even if Zenkais did a lot of job, Goku could ultimately match Frieza because all the techniques he has learnt on his way up there. Tricks like the Kame Hame Ha, using Kaio-Ken to amp and match someone initially out of his rank, etc.
In Cell Saga Goku literally spent most of the time trying to hone to perfection Super Saiyan. Not to get stronger, but to make Super Saiyan more efficient and control it perfectfully. That's why he could reach Grade 4 while Vegeta and Trunks, who were more focused on gaining strength regardless if they'd lose speed instead (Grade 2 & 3) couldn't.
And I could go on and on showing you in all the sagas the importance of skill, training, martial arts and abilities until the last arc, where Vegeta and Goku have reached their limits and have to improve the way they use their energy and strength to keep up with Jiren. Who isn't stronger, but uses his strength more efficiently. So:
Yes, there are special skills and tactics. Sheer stats are important when fighting against fodder, but saying that there is no special skill and tactic, again, is just pure ignorance at worst and lack of reading comprehension at best.
Dragon Ball is trying to give you a clear message: to hone your body to perfection. To not only look for strength, but for more skills. That those who only focus on strength end up losing.
And you're ignoring all that and claim that the only relevant part of Dragon Ball is who is stronger.
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I'm prob the biggest Chronoa stan in the site and even I don't buy this bs
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You kinda misuderstood me. I'm not saying that DB characters are skilles or something. Even opposite, I'm the guy who thinks there are only a few characters in the entire fiction who can just compete with Goku's skill, battle iq and overall martial arts. I was trying to say that characters can resist some things via their high ki alone, as there would be no other explanation for such things except their biology(which isn't the reason in Goku and Vegeta's cases) for ki based characters. So characters with the same lvl of ki or higher could do the same thing like them, as it would probably happen in the series. Also I'm trying to say raw stats play the most major role in DB. For example, imagine Goku with Pilaf saga techniques and skills, but with the same stats, transformations and SoE(it's more a transformation then a tecnhique) as current Goku in DBS anime or manga. This Goku would be able to beat almost every his opponent because the sheer stats and ki power abilities. However Goku with Pilaf saga stats and without transformations, but with all his skill and techniques wouldn't be able to get past saiyan saga, probably even Piccolo Daimao saga or 22 tournament. I hope you know understand my message.
I will answer all other takes because...why not
Those claims are breaken down by the fact Chronoa didn't use her true form in those fight and the fact she could compete(in her true form) with characters that are stronger than Zeno gives her a major favor. Also how does the fact characters can destroy all history makes them stronger than Zeno?
The same successor who downgraded Goku's skill, intellegence and his entire character...yeah... Also Toriyama didn't help with creating those two arcs as Toyataro directly said
So by using this you are appling Goku is skilles fodder, who doesn't know what meditation even is and who just lift to make stronger? Nice job downgrading character's skill
Most of the work did his stats as he was able to compete even with SoE Goku
The main point was in getting stronger
Goku still was pushed to SSG
For a character with enormous speed? Yes. If I had, like, ftl speed, then making such trick wouldn't be a problem as falling speed isn't fast(comparing to ftl and higher)
Goku was several times punched in guts by Broly, who previously punched away and no selled SSG Vegeta. Did Goku use Shaori from Baki?
The main point was in getting stronger in a short time
However Goku was still overwhelmed by Frieza's sheer stats in the end, the only thing that saved Goku was SS1
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As Goku said:"Looks like you are the second now"I'm prob the biggest Chronoa stan in the site and even I don't buy this bs
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Bruh
CelestialVortex01
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I should have probably mentioned that in the AU i'm planning on creating, power levels are gonna have two aspects: an AP/Durability aspect and a layer aspect. For the AP/Durability aspect, it's gonna work in a similar way to normal DB, where increasing your power level increases your durability and AP at an exponential rate. For the layer aspect, which is the aspect that revolves around your haxxes, you start out at a base tier (PL 1 - 99999). It doesn't matter what power level you've got within the base tier, because since you're within the base tier, the power of your haxxes will remain equal regardless of whether your PL is 1 or 99999. Once your power level reaches 100000 - 199999, that's when you enter the first tier, where all your haxxes transcend those of the base tier. The same rules will apply to this tier, as well as every other tier above, where it doesn't matter what your power level is within the tier, because the power of your haxxes will stay equal within the tier. What this essentially means is that within tiers, the dominant aspect is AP/Durability, while between tiers, it is the layer aspect that is dominant. I should also emphasize that the AP/Durability aspect and the layer aspect are completely independent of each other, meaning that changes in the layer aspect will not affect the AP/Durability aspect, and vice versa.
I really hope all of that made sense.
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