Arceus Problems

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Since apparently people have problem's with Arceus' stats and are hellbent on downgrading him since he is apparently a wanked character.. This is a thread to voice your concerns since I and many others are getting really irritated by this constant downplay.

 

[Cropfist]

It isn't that big an issue.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

They're just people who know nothing about vs battles.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

It is starting to be. I just want to end this. I want to clear all doubt. It is getting annoying.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Arceus consistently fodderizes At least 2-C characters in multiple pieces of Pokemon media. Even in Jewel of Life, which has some of the worst writing and absurd PIS I've ever seen in anything related to Pokemon, he shakes several universes by being angry (while incomplete) and stomps Palkia and Dialga. I fail to see a problem with his stats.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

Didn't he got owned by a meteor?

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Didn't he got owned by a meteor?

PIS. He later tanked hits from 3 2-Cs

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Didn't he got owned by a meteor?

He got nearly killed by silver water first, actually.

In the same film he fodderized several other 2-C characters and shook universes by being angry.

Jewel of Life is really bad.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Arceus consistently fodderizes At least 2-C characters in multiple pieces of Pokemon media. Even in Jewel of Life, which has some of the worst writing and absurd PIS I've ever seen in anything related to Pokemon, he shakes several universes by being angry (while incomplete) and stomps Palkia and Dialga. I fail to see a problem with his stats.

Same here but apparently people are calling this wanked. Like I said I just want those who have problem with the statistics to be able to voice there reasons.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Didn't Mighty literally make a 3-part respect thread debunking shit like that?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Didn't Mighty literally make a 3-part respect thread debunking shit like that?

He did, in fact...

 

[WeeklyBattles]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ing_The_Lake_Trio,_Dialga,_Palkia_and_Arceus)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Dialga,_Palkia_and_Arceus)_Part_2_(Completed)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ga,_Palkia_and_Arceus)_Final_Part_(Completed)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Didn't Mighty literally make a 3-part respect thread debunking shit like that?

"I do agree that Arceus gets wanked quite a lot on here. On paper, he sounds good, and one of the strongest 2-C. In practice... let's look at all the media. The games? He's a dumb brick who can get exploited by anyone. Gets exploited by Trainers. Gets exploited in PMD. He gets exploited in the HG&SS arc of the manga by a Team Rocket member. He gets exploited in the anime. Arceus is one of the most dumbest 2-Cs and when it comes to combat, all he does is fling around energy stuff and other non-hax moves for the most part.

For instance, when has Arceus ever used Future Sight? Or Destiny Bond for that matter? When has it even used space-time attack? Hell, unlike Dialga and Palkia who actually used space and time attacks in the manga, Arceus hasn't.

Othinus wins by creating a Master Ball and catching Arceus who will be too dumb to do anything about it."

This is the most recent Argument I've heard on this thread.https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/411527#69

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Arceus consistently fodderizes At least 2-C characters in multiple pieces of Pokemon media. Even in Jewel of Life, which has some of the worst writing and absurd PIS I've ever seen in anything related to Pokemon, he shakes several universes by being angry (while incomplete) and stomps Palkia and Dialga. I fail to see a problem with his stats.

Giratina too. He even shaked his and the human universes (bigger than normal ones IIRC) just by traveling to it. And this was all done by his incomplete form

I agree with Dragon, the constant Arceus downplay is getting ridiculous now. Mixing in game mechanics, PIS, etc. all together is just blatently ubsurd.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

One of the most unimpressive portrayals of Arceus (Adventures) busts out of a Master Ball. Hell, the lore explanation for why legendaries of that level can even be captured in the first place is that they acknowledge and accept the trainer, otherwise they could just refuse.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I will say that is it honestly getting annoying to see comments relating to about Arceus being on this level tho.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

In Adventures he's capable of connecting different worlds with each other or something without having any plates at all

I dont even see why people bring the silver water argument up. Even if Arceus was legitimately harmed in that scene, that was incomplete Arceus who lost several of his plates. It's extremely unlikey to say it would work on him when he's at least complete. That's like saying Pikachu hitting Arceus is legit....

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

The silver water part was a joke that we threw around. And nowadays the meteor is also a joke we pass around for Arceus.

 

[Wyver_Luna]

tbh, the only downplay i find reasonable is maybe a note that despite supposedly knowing all Arceus has been duped before fairly easily. Arceus isn't really gullible but comes pretty close. but a footnote is all it'll ever be tbh. the rest of Arceus's stats are pretty well deserved and proven.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm agreeing with the majority, which seems like everyone. Arceus gets unfairly persecuted because of his abilities. People with more broken abilities like Giorno and Misogi don't get that treatment.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well it's because Arceus barely showed those, while GER's only appearance was outhaxing the enemy. So I guess it can be more controversial.

 

[Wyver_Luna]

i'm still thinking Arceus deserves a note to the fact of how much it's been duped to show that massive knowledge doesn't automatically mean it uses said knowledge. but the majority is right that arceus's abilities, power, and tanking have been doubted much more than reasonable.

(edit: mind you this still only affects in-character actions. on paper it's still deserving of all it's stats)

 

[DontTalk]

More or less like Wyver says, Arceus deserves all those stats and I see no problems with his page.ÔÇ¿
The "Arceus is one of the most dumbest 2-Cs and when it comes to combat, all he does is fling around energy stuff and other non-hax moves for the most part." holds a piece of truth as he de facto is depicted usually more relying more on pokemon moves than on godly powers, like reality warping and destroying the universe etc. ÔÇ¿
In other words he has a bad fighting style for a 2-C entity, something often not mentioned on profiles hence nothing wrong with the profile.ÔÇ¿


Otherwise arceus abilities at times get overstated above what his listed abilities are based on.ÔÇ¿
For example his conceptual manipulation is deserved, since he did create the concepts of Time, Space, Antimatter, Emotion, Knowledge and Willpower. But more general conceptual manipulation, like changing or destroying concepts are, to my knowledge, not explained to be necessarily part of his arsenal.ÔÇ¿
Here again profiles usually don't explicitly list it, so nothing wrong with the profile. Still stretching things in terms of argumentation in a battle.ÔÇ¿
Worse cases of this are for example that abilities which he got per transitive properties, like wonder guard, would protect him from attacks of 2-C level or higher even though we have seen no use of the ability against this level from arceus or any other pokemon for that matter. To that also count abilities which were only demonstrated at lower power levels, being assumed to work at higher non demonstrated levels for arceus.ÔÇ¿
That as well are details that usually are not explicitly mentioned in profiles, but in debates can be stretched to badly justified extent.ÔÇ¿
Arceus is also by far not the only character with this problem in debates. Essentialy the profile structure with the list of general powers and abilities encourages to assume that each of this abilities works at the same level of power, especially for hax and hax resistance, and that every ability a character has partly demonstrated is possessed to full extent with all possible effects of the ability archievable.ÔÇ¿

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

More or less like Wyver says, Arceus deserves all those stats and I see no problems with his page.ÔÇ¿
The "Arceus is one of the most dumbest 2-Cs and when it comes to combat, all he does is fling around energy stuff and other non-hax moves for the most part." holds a piece of truth as he de facto is depicted usually more relying more on pokemon moves than on godly powers, like reality warping and destroying the universe etc. ÔÇ¿
In other words he has a bad fighting style for a 2-C entity, something often not mentioned on profiles hence nothing wrong with the profile.ÔÇ¿

But thats just it. Why would Arceus need to resort to such a tactic? He has never had a good reason to show off those kinds of abilties in a battle when all he has fought to our knowledge is pokemon who are far weaker than him. Given that, the most simple thing to do is just simply overpower them, like he was doing to the creation trio. It seems as tho Arceus and the creation trio never show those abilities in mid fight unless they absolutely need or have a reason to. A perfect example is the Sinjoh Ruins event. Arceus showed us him reshaping the universe and creating a baby version of one of the trio because he wanted the player to see some of his power. But we wouldnt see that in Jewel of Life, where as Arceus never implied a mere interest in destroying even the planet, just passing judgement on humans.

Also, unless you have really good AP, you can't really show off those kinds of abilities when your on such a small, delicate setting like earth. In a movie's case, there has to be some restraint in order to make a good story out of it, otherwise everything would just be all over the place.

Saying he has a bad fighting style is one thing, but using a reason like this just doesnt seem to work.

 

[Wyver_Luna]

true, simply having no competition on your level would lead to overly simplified battle style. so i guess the results are something to the effect of:

On Paper, Arceus's stats are legit and don't need changing

In Character, Arceus doesn't make use of it's full potential 90% of the time and that should be accounted for, kinda like Sol Badguy if i remember correctly. Lazy bastard won't start at full power unless it's proved he needs it... except in Arceus's case it's out of complacency of nearly never having to use it rather than simply not wanting to put forth the effort. Doesn't change the fact that Arceus has been duped numerous times, which at least warrents a note in the profile.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Yeah he is too naive when it comes to his creations.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not a note, but a weakness

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im not sure about the manga but for the anime it shouldnt be noted

A pokemon trusting a human after a human helping it or proving to be trustworthy in some heroic act is very common in the verse it has happend many times, like Pikachu trusting Ash who defended it from the swarm of spearow, Larvitar trusting Ash to bring it back to its mother, Riolu trusting Ash to bring it back to its kingdom despite other humans trying to capture it, etc.

It shouldnt be any different here, especially when in this case, Damos has exceptionally proven to be trustworthy of Arceus. Saying it shouldnt count for Arceus despite the other times this has happened looks kind of ridiculous.

 

[DontTalk]

Saying he has a bad fighting style is one thing, but using a reason like this just doesnt seem to work.

What does that mean? I was making the argument he has a bad fighting style, so which reasoning doesn't seem to work?


For all intents and purposes his opponents are inferior, as far as he knows. Correct. Non the less he gives them openings, gets for a short time trapped by palkia and allows dialga to pull time shenanigans, because he doesn't simply use reality warping to will them out of existence or similar methods. That would have been a simpler solution, not unnecessarily lengthening the fight and not even destroying the universe.

And technically destroying the universe right at the beginning of any battle is just the ideal course of action for any 2-C, doesn't matter how far below him he assumes the opponents to be. Not doing so means taking risks, even if just small risks.

Of course he did so because the movie makers had to make the story interesting, but that doesn't mean that it isn't legitimate part of his character and by that not disadvantage in battle.

 

[PaChi2]

Arceus doesnt destroy his creation in-character. Arceus doesnt need to fight his creation as it isnt a real threat to him because he is superior to all of them (even if Dialga, palkia and giratina try to fight him, they cannot kill him). Anything else is PIS for showing good fights to the kids, if PIS didnt exist, many, many of the fights in fiction would end in 1 hit or not even start. You could compare him to Zeno', a character who doesnt fight, trying to fight. Except that pokemon is for small kids and Arceus cant go destroying universes onscreen.

 

[LazyHunter]

I don't know enough about Arceus to discuss this particular case, but I have noticed that several times one or both fighters' usual strategies/personalities are not taken into account; and that despite the standard assumptions, it is assumed that a character is bloodlusted and has knowledge about their opponent's power level, sometimes even their weaknesses. A bit off-topic, I just noticed that the Bloodlust page conflicts with the Standard Assumptions:

 

[DontTalk]

@LazyHunter: Fixed the bloodlust page.

@PaChi2: Differentiate between PIS and CIS.

PIS it is if the character is more consistently portrayed in a way that suggests he would do it, but he doesn't do it for the sake of the plot.

CIS it is if the character is more consistently portrayed so that he won't do it, no matter wether that way of acting has a reason in the plot or not.

Arceus isn't more consistently portrayed as an effective fighter, so that he fights like that is CIS not PIS. The fact that the show is for kids just causes him to have a weakness in that point.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Saying he has a bad fighting style is one thing, but using a reason like this just doesnt seem to work.

What does that mean? I was making the argument he has a bad fighting style, so which reasoning doesn't seem to work?

For all intents and purposes his opponents are inferior, as far as he knows. Correct. Non the less he gives them openings, gets for a short time trapped by palkia and allows dialga to pull time shenanigans, because he doesn't simply use reality warping to will them out of existence or similar methods. That would have been a simpler solution, not unnecessarily lengthening the fight and not even destroying the universe.

And technically destroying the universe right at the beginning of any battle is just the ideal course of action for any 2-C, doesn't matter how far below him he assumes the opponents to be. Not doing so means taking risks, even if just small risks.

Of course he did so because the movie makers had to make the story interesting, but that doesn't mean that it isn't legitimate part of his character and by that not disadvantage in battle.

Well for your first point, yea he gives them openings because it is supposed to be a real fight, not just an immediate stomp fest. However i'd chalk that up to PIS as well because of a few reasons:

1st, like I said before, this is a movie and there has to be some restraint in some way in order to ensure a good story out of it somehow. It would be boring to see just a straight up stomp fest with the winner being seen as absolutely invincible with no way for anyone to do anything to them.

2nd, Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina were literally humanitys only hope and chance at stopping Arceus since their the only pokemon in the verse strong enough to even take on Arceus. Of course, they still got stomped but it's obvious they would be given openings to do something. Otherwise, if they were taken out immeidately, Ash and his friends wouldnt have been able to go back in time and do what they had to. They would've been destroyed also, something that is never allowed to happen in a story. Taking the fodders team's only chance at surviving away quickly would be a bad move.

3rd, You also have to remember that Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are the very concepts and representations of the concepts that make up the verse. You could argue that Arceus had a thing out against humans, but clearly not against the verse itself. Arceus would never resort to erasing away the concepts that keep reality in check, otherwise everything in the verse except him would be destroyed, something that isnt what Arceus was intending to do.

Finally the last reason is, even if you can overlook all of this, you have to remember that this was done by an incomplete Arceus, so you can't just apply the screw ups that Arceus has done when he was limited to his complete form. That would be like applying the lol silver water to him when he has all his plates. Incomplete Arceus was more so focusing on passing judgement which could also explain why he gives his creations openings. I seriously doubt Arceus when at his full capabilities would do the same.

Also, we shouldnt say how a show is being portrayed is a weakness as it isnt the in-verses characters fault they are being portrayed in such a way.