Back with another monk ichibei thread

[Adam1396]

Well if even a small piece of the previous realm still persists, then it leads to the same result.

The influence of a concept can grow or shrink overtime, but so long as it's ultimately linked both ways to what it influences, or we don't have evidence to the contrary, then it is Type 2.

1. Previous realm can not even be considered a reality based on primordial chaos explanation on the wiki which perfectly fits primordial ocean.

2. A piece was "separated" from primordial sea. Meaning orderless chaos primordial sea still exists. So it's not part of primordial reality. Rather other space time-connum was created, and a reality was created (garganta) to give meaning to law, orders of the worlds which itself is brand new. And annihilation of which will cause everything back to primordial chaotic mass/ sea. So reality creation and destruction is definitely happening. Point to be noted "chaos" "order" these things are very important for such cases.

3. Kindly have a look at the main evidence for independence.

 

[FinePoint]

1. Previous realm can not even be considered a reality based on primordial chaos explanation on the wiki which perfectly fits primordial ocean.

2. A piece was "separated" from primordial sea. Meaning orderless chaos primordial sea still exists. So it's not part of primordial reality. Rather other space time-connum was created, and a reality was created (garganta) to give meaning to law, orders of the worlds which itself is brand new. And annihilation of which will cause everything back to primordial chaotic mass/ sea. So reality creation and destruction is definitely happening. Point to be noted "chaos" "order" these things are very important for such cases.

3. Kindly have a look at the main evidence for independence.

Well the description of a primordial chaos on the Chaos Manipulation page simply refers to a state of reality before traditional creation.

A concept can still govern this sort of reality.

 

[Adam1396]

Well the description of a primordial chaos on the Chaos Manipulation page simply refers to a state of reality before traditional creation.

A concept can still govern this sort of reality.

I see. Though that still doesn’t affect my argument how a portion of mass was "separated" and new mass, worlds were created, a new reality (garganta) was created, order was created. And new reality is obviously separated from and bran new one.

Evidence for independence of the concept still remains firm.

 

[FinePoint]

I see. Though that still doesn’t affect my argument how a portion of mass was "separated" and new mass, worlds were created, a new reality (garganta) was created, order was created. And new reality is obviously separated from and bran new one.

Evidence for independence of the concept still remains firm.

Well, it's possible that during the separation the concept remained connected and its influence simply split along with the mass.

I'm not saying we exactly have evidence it's not an independent concept, but I don't think we exactly have evidence it is either.

In the context of this site, Type 1 Concept Manipulation has extremely complex and powerful implications, and so our standard of proof for it is relatively high. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Therefore, while I respect that it's theoretically possible, I simply don't view the evidence as sufficient right now, my apologies.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Too much assumptions are required here to argue type 1. I don’t think we have enough hard evidence for Ichibei to receive type 1.

 

[Johner2133451]

We can try argue CM1 via sigurd's crt later. For now, we can wait and maybe come back here again if cour 4 give us more material

 

[DavidTPPM]

As a punishment for this thread Ichibe will be downgraded to a brand new "type 4" CM

 

[Adam1396]

Well, it's possible that during the separation the concept remained connected and its influence simply split along with the mass.

I'm not saying we exactly have evidence it's not an independent concept, but I don't think we exactly have evidence it is either.

In the context of this site, Type 1 Concept Manipulation has extremely complex and powerful implications, and so our standard of proof for it is relatively high. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Therefore, while I respect that it's theoretically possible, I simply don't view the evidence as sufficient right now, my apologies.

No offense bro. I just think it would be a better idea if you look into chaos, orderless and how it all concects with order, laws, concepts, space, time.

Too much assumptions are required here to argue type 1. I don’t think we have enough hard evidence for Ichibei to receive type 1.

We can try argue CM1 via sigurd's crt later. For now, we can wait and maybe come back here again if cour 4 give us more material

Any CRT is welcome. There stands no reason to wait for other CRT or no reason to assume both can't be CM1.

And Idk why you think it's so much assumption, Ichibei's statement flat out clarifies the concept's independence and him manipulating it at very metaphysical form. At most you can say I couldn’t explain the reality part more clearly, the evidence about the concept's independence still stands firm which is the main factor for type 1 concept.

 

[Adam1396]

As a punishment for this thread Ichibe will be downgraded to a brand new "type 4" CM

Highly agree. Just make the thread when it comes out and I will be the first one to agree with you regradless of what type 4 comes to be.

 

[Deceived3596]

As a punishment for this thread Ichibe will be downgraded to a brand new "type 4" CM

Conceptual Manipulation

Conceptual Manipulation is the ability to manipulate, create, and/or destroy abstract concepts. This ability has a variety of applications, ranging from not combat-applicable to incredibly dominating. Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of concepts, and not the universe directly...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Iirc, Ichibei ones was able to like... Block the name of Zengetsu revealing to Ichigo through his ink outside of Soul Society soo would it assist type 1 arguments in a way since it implied his influence goes beyond the reality he is operating under?

 

[Adam1396]

Iirc, Ichibei ones was able to like... Block the name of Zengetsu revealing to Ichigo through his ink outside of Soul Society soo would it assist type 1 arguments in a way since it implied his influence goes beyond the reality he is operating under?

Yes. That's a great finding. His power operates across all the realities. But affecting blackness in inner world/consciousness is affecting very core metaphysical aspect of it/ functioning in far more abstract sense than what is currently rated and inner world technically doesn’t exist in reality.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Iirc, Ichibei ones was able to like... Block the name of Zengetsu revealing to Ichigo through his ink outside of Soul Society soo would it assist type 1 arguments in a way since it implied his influence goes beyond the reality he is operating under?

Yes. That's a great finding. His power operates across all the realities. But affecting blackness in inner world/consciousness is affecting very core metaphysical aspect of it/ functioning in far more abstract sense than what is currently rated and inner world technically doesn’t exist in reality.

No, universe/dimension ≠ reality. SS doesn't have its own individual concept of black, the entire Bleach cosmology is governed by one concept of black.

As far as I'm aware different dimensions/universes aren't considered different realities in the sense that they have their own individual concepts unless it's specified to be the case by the series.

 

[Adam1396]

No, universe/dimension ≠ reality. SS doesn't have its own individual concept of black, the entire Bleach cosmology is governed by one concept of black.

As far as I'm aware different dimensions/universes aren't considered different realities in the sense that they have their own individual concepts unless it's specified to be the case by the series.

Already addressed this so many times. Concept of black is same in all dimensions/realities in garganta.
Garganta is the singular reality in the context of Concepts, reality creation, destruction. These individual might have different other concepts for different things (if specified), black is same for all of these at the very least.

Argument here is ichibei manipulating very abstrat form of blackness such as blackness inside conciousness,
blackness of nothingness which is by definition independent of anything.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

No, universe/dimension ≠ reality. SS doesn't have its own individual concept of black, the entire Bleach cosmology is governed by one concept of black.

As far as I'm aware different dimensions/universes aren't considered different realities in the sense that they have their own individual concepts unless it's specified to be the case by the series.

I'm very neutral in this whole scenario but lemme ask you a question here then since we are at it... What "reality" means to you exactly? Do you define reality as its own collection of space-time continuum governed by its own set of laws? Do you think Soul Society, The World of the Living and Hueco Mundo aren't realities governed by their own laws but just modified around in a way they all are the same reality in contrast to giving illusion they are different? If I remember correctly, the concept of the Garganta didn't even exist during the primordial era... Nor did the three realms as we know them now. And considering that Oetsu was given his name (and powers as a result) by Adneuys before the current worlds took form, it’s possible his association with "Darkness" precedes the formation of those three realms and should qualify by the wiki standards from what I understand.

So unless you prove the realities here aren't separate from one another, then it should work out.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I'm very neutral in this whole scenario but lemme ask you a question here then since we are at it... What "reality" means to you exactly? Do you define reality as its own collection of space-time continuum governed by its own set of laws? Do you think Soul Society, The World of the Living and Hueco Mundo aren't realities governed by their own laws but just modified around in a way they all are the same reality in contrast to giving illusion they are different? If I remember correctly, the concept of the Garganta didn't even exist during the primordial era... Nor did the three realms as we know them now. And considering that Oetsu was given his name (and powers as a result) by Adneuys before the current worlds took form, it’s possible his association with "Darkness" precedes the formation of those three realms and should qualify by the wiki standards from what I understand.

So unless you prove the realities here aren't separate from one another, then it should work out.

While we are at it though, does the wiki recognize all three worlds as separate realities or not?

 

[karo_senpaii]

While we are at it though, does the wiki recognize all three worlds as separate realities or not?

It doesn't. It recognises it as one reality having 3 timelines

 

[SuperSonicTL]

It doesn't. It recognises it as one reality having 3 timelines

It's possible to have three separate realities under one single reality but if the wiki doesn't recognize this as an actual sets of universes with different laws then it wouldn't work out.

I suppose a better alternative is first you proving why these worlds are totally separate from one another before tackling this subject @Adam1396

 

[Adam1396]

It's possible to have three separate realities under one single reality but if the wiki doesn't recognize this as an actual sets of universes with different laws then it wouldn't work out.

I suppose a better alternative is first you proving why these worlds are totally separate from one another before tackling this subject @Adam1396

I got your point. That way each reality can have their own set of type 1 concepts, if evidence provided.
But for ichibei's case, black blatantly governs all these realities. And off course predates and outdates all these reality.

Now considering all these are subset realities of one reality garganta, black still predates and outdates. It seemingly doesn’t affect my arguments.

I still am going to have a stuff discussion on this topic even though it's supposedly supportive arguments. And main evidence is a straight evidence for blackness independency and how it exist without any existence in a pure metaphysical form.
Also I don’t think type 1 concept are considered automatic 1A anymore.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

I got your point. That way each reality can have their own set of type 1 concepts, if evidence provided.
But for ichibei's case, black blatantly governs all these realities. And off course predates and outdates all these reality.

Now considering all these are subset realities of one reality garganta, black still predates and outdates. It seemingly doesn’t affect my arguments.

I still am going to have a stuff discussion on this topic even though it's supposedly supportive arguments. And main evidence is a straight evidence for blackness independency and how it exist without any existence in a pure metaphysical form.
Also I don’t think type 1 concept are considered automatic 1A anymore.

I think you misunderstood, when the CM page mentions "reality" it is not referring to any type of cosmos or universe but rather to the "set/section/objects" that the concept is part of, for example the concept of "dog" governs its entire "reality" which are dogs, interfering with it will not affect space-time, universe, dangai or anything else like that, it will only affect dogs.
If you destroy all the dogs in the world that are the "reality" of the concept of "dog", and the same concept is not destroyed it would be a type 1 concept, now if the concept of dog disappeared along with the death of the dogs it would be a type 2 concept, now if this concept governed only one dog it would be a type 3 concept

 

[Adam1396]

I think you misunderstood, when the CM page mentions "reality" it is not referring to any type of cosmos or universe but rather to the "set/section/objects" that the concept is part of, for example the concept of "dog" governs its entire "reality" which are dogs, interfering with it will not affect space-time, universe, dangai or anything else like that, it will only affect dogs.
If you destroy all the dogs in the world that are the "reality" of the concept of "dog", and the same concept is not destroyed it would be a type 1 concept, now if the concept of dog disappeared along with the death of the dogs it would be a type 2 concept, now if this concept governed only one dog it would be a type 3 concept

I off course understood that part. Hence my main argument was blackness exist beyond any existence itself in a pure abstract form, showing it's existence without object/reality in question. A clear cut evidence for independence.

You are mixing two different contexts for reality that we have been talking about.
Regardless, that was a nice explanation