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Bayonetta 2 downgrade

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You missed half of my point. Why would she summon far weaker monster against someone who's far stronger than her and is not remotely weakened by bayonetta at all?
 
Not everything necessarily needs a canonical explanation. This game has an intentional sex appeal and they'll try to cram in as many summons as they can. But if you're really desperate for a canonical answer she could just be using it as an attempt to restrain or distract loptr.
 
Theglassman12 said:
The huge thing that was powered by Balder's right eye as shown in the very next still image.

No he didn't, he used it after she was on her knees. So you're either lying to me or didn't play the same game I did because I have the cutscene in the OP if you want to refresh your memories on what actually happened.

Ok and this just raises more questions as to why she sends demons to their deaths when she needs them to use her power in the first place.

The second fight literally ends with Loptr knocking her out. Maybe check again on the scene where Bayonetta was knocked out from the fight before you keep saying they're on even playing field. If you will not address the fact that she literally got knocked out then this is getting nowhere and you're not bringing anything new to the table.
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Its powered by both eyes as shown by the scene beforehand

No he didnt, he used it while she was standing ready to continue fighting

She only needs Madama Butterfly, the others are just demons she has. I can try to find the lore quote but iirc its directly stated that all of the demons that Witches are able to summon are weak enough compared to the witch thatsummons them that they are able to be physically restrained by the witch's hair alone, hence why Wicked Weaves are a thing.

I did, he didnt knock her out, you can tell by her yelling as shes falling.
 
@Crimson_Shadow101 you missed my point. You guys are claiming that Bayonetta's summons are weaker than her. If that's the case, why would she waste her time casting summons for monsters that aren't even on her level, and is fighting someone who's stronger than her?

@WeeklyBattles Your points are just the same thing I already addressed. If this is all you have then there's no point wasting any more time if you're not bringing up any new points that I haven't already addressed. So lets bring in the 3-A stuff now, or I'll just go through with the downgrade.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Crimson_Shadow101 you missed my point. You guys are claiming that Bayonetta's summons are weaker than her. If that's the case, why would she waste her time casting summons for monsters that aren't even on her level, and is fighting someone who's stronger than her?
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They are weaker than her. Like I said not everything needs a canonical explanation. A large part of the series is sex appeal and summons give the most nudity, so they'll put in summons whether the opponent is stronger than the summons or not. If you are really that desperate for a canonical explanation they she could merely have been using them in a failed attempt to slow loptr down a bit.
 
Honestly? PIS, style points, or instinct, she does the same thing with Balder. Logically it would make sense to not use a summoned demon when your opponent actively oneshots them but she does so anyways in both fights (Technically she doesnt even use her strongest possible summons either, she never used Hekatonchiers or Madama Butterfly against them)

So you agree then? That Bayo lost the first and third fight due to hax exploiting the left eye, with the latter being done while she was focused on summoning a demon and had her back turned, and the second Loptr fled instead of losing to her and that she wasnt knocked out as you can hear her actively shouting as she's falling?
 
The sex appeal thing has nothing to do with the scene.

Yes, we don't need an explanation as to why the series has sex appeal, and we also don't need a reason as to why Bayo used a weaker summon to stop a guy who was clearly stronger than it.

But the fact remains that she did it, and it was a 0 IQ move on her part logically, if she knew for a fact that it would do nothing to him.
 
@Sir_Ovens I already kinda gave an explanation for it, basically yeah its just a zero IQ move, and she did it in both major fights (Against Father Balder and Loptr) plus against Loptr she literally turned her back to him to summon Hydra and in both fights she tried multiple demons despite seeing that her opponents casually oneshot them
 
Theglassman12 said:
Your points are just the same thing I already addressed. If this is all you have then there's no point wasting any more time if you're not bringing up any new points that I haven't already addressed. So lets bring in the 3-A stuff now, or I'll just go through with the downgrade.
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Shrug
 
That doesn't change the fact that Bayonetta's using summons on someone stronger than her. AKA Loptr, when her summons as you claim btw, are weaker than her. You're the one making the points not me.

No I never once said I agreed with you. You're ignoring my points and just nitpicking how the fights go. I'm not going to waste my time telling you this when I already explained what actually happened in the end of these fights as opposed to your head canon of what may have happened. So just bring the 3-A upgrades you claim Bayonetta has for over a year and lets discuss that.
 
Yes, i already addressed that, basically yeah its just a zero IQ move, PIS, instinct, or style points, she summoned demons in both her fights against Father Balder and against Loptr and did so after already seeing that both of them were strong enough to oneshot her demons.

Its really not nitpicking, its pointing out details that contradict what youre claiming while also explaining the context behind the fights. You claimed that in the second fight Bayo got knocked out when Loptr threw a building at her and destroyed the battlefield yet we hear her audibly shouting as she is falling, contradicting the claim that she was knocked out. In the first fight you claim that she was on her knees struggling to stand yet she is shown to have stood up and directly stated that she was ready and able to continue fighting, only being incapacitated by Loptr forcibly activating the Left Eye, which as shown in the other instances this has happened causes her severe pain and can potentially knock her out, contradicting the claim that the fight alone damaged her enough to defeat her. You claim in the third fight that Loptr blitzed and stomped Bayo yet the instance of blitzing you refer to is when Bayo had her back turned to Loptr and was focusing on summoning Hydra, contradicting the claim that he just outright blitzed her, and the instance of stomping Bayo is him once again forcibly activating the Left Eye which, as shown from the first game, knocks her out, contradicting the claim that he stomped her. Its not headcanon, it is fact. This is what happened in the fights, what you are describing is not accurate.
 
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Anyways, if anyone would like anything clarified regarding the Loptr fights i'd be more than happy to help but at the moment I feel that the issues brought up in the OP and the ensuing conversation have been thoroughly explained and that the reasoning given for Bayonetta's current scaling, barring the issues with Jeanne, are sufficient fer her to at minimum keep her current ratings. I can post the 3-A upgrades tomorrow if there are no other issues.
 
How about you bring the 3-A upgrades right now? You’ve stalled these upgrades for over a year. If you’re not gonna remotely bring it up then I’m just go through with the downgrade since there’s no point to waiting for something that’s not gonna come up.
 
I will post them as soon as I get home from work, I just wanted to k ow if there was anything you wanted to add

Er...is a threat really neccessary? Especially when said threat is to apply something that has been debunked? Pretty sure that's against the wiki rules.
 
Whether the 3-A stuff is accepted or not is irrelevant at this point, other than the stuff with jeanne the downgrade has been proven to be faulty and thus cannot be applied.
 
It absolutely can be applied because you barely gave any meaningful rebuttals to my points. All you did is just point out specific scenes that does not debunk the major parts of the scenes that I’m pointing out in the slightest. Even Crimson Shadow corrected you by saying Bayonetta was knocked out after the second fight, and conveniently enough, you didn’t remotely try to debunk that at all. Her yelling does not debunk the fact she got knocked out.
 
>Barely gave any meaningful rebuttals

Dude I went through every issue you had and explained why you're wrong about every one of them. I flat out debunked every problem you had with the bayonetta/loptr scenes.

And no, he corrected you in saying that she wasnt knocked out which was followed up with me posting a video of her screaming as shes falling, directly contradicting your claim that she was knocked out. And yeah, it really does debunk it unless you believe that someone can scream in fear while unconcious.
 
Other than Matt everyone who agreed with you at the start changed their opinion on this thread to neutral and several people have voiced agreement with me so please dont try to act like this is some unanimously decided verdict or that I'm the only one who is arguing against this downgrade.
 
Give Weekly a few hours to do the 3-A stuff. If they don't provide anything then we'll move on with the accepted revisions.
Sir_Ovens said:
I think the focus should be the scaling before the 3-A upgrades.
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Wouldn't the 3-A stuff also go with the scaling?
 
I think Weekly's teaser for the 3-A upgrade implied that the suggested upgrade would probably take base bayo 2 up to 3-A as well as loptr and balder who scale to her.
 
No you did not debunk my Bayonetta/Loptr scenes. You cherry picked certain blink and you miss it moments in the fights that did not change the fact that Bayonetta lost to him in all 3 fights. And yes Crimson was absolutely correcting you.

“Unfortunately you are incorrect on cereza not getting knocked out. She awakes right here after he throws a chunk of the clocktower at her.”

You’re the only person who is remotely arguing she didn’t get knocked out in that fight. Do deductive reasoning, he was talking to you.

Prove the people who actually agrees with me changed their opinion. Because last time I checked, I got Crimson to agree with me regarding Jeanne’s scaling when he was at first skeptical. Quite frankly it’s you who’s losing any support with this debate.
 
Glassman, chill a bit, mk? Things are getting a little tense here, so let's just take a step back and pull back before debating turns to disdain to aggression.

Equally, Weekly, please do provide a fully detailed 3-A explanation. If you don't believe you have the time to type it up in a way that fully and truly explains your argument, then perhaps this CRT could go through, and we can revisit the subject once you're ready?
 
Until weekly is able to present his arguments, since he is the only one defending as of right now, I agree with the downgrades. It would be nice to see weeklys arguments in this thread though.
 
I mean the downgrades wouldn't effect the verse too significantly anyways. Cereza and Balder would still hold onto a High 4-C key. The only one really impacted would be Jeanne I guess.
 
I agree with the downgrade. I have stated my reasoning for why Bayonetta doesn't scale to 3-A from Loptr in a past thread and my opinion has not been changed yet.
 
@Crimson_Shadow101 Alraune would also be affected by this since she scales only from Jeanne, and present day Loptr without either eyes, though I need to double check on Rodin if he scales to any of these characters or not.
 
I'm really not sure why people are claiming that I have made no argument when I have been doing so the entire time and have debunked basically everything that says they dont scale to loptr
 
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