Black Clover : Conceptual Manipulation

[AstaDragon123]

Dream Magic : Glamour World and Thread Magic : Red Thread of Fate is concept? Because Morris must use power that able to affect intangibles concepts to defend magic of Dorothy and Vanessa.

 

[Aseka]

It just means those things are abstract and can't be touched unless with a certain power.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Dream Magic : Glamour World and Thread Magic : Red Thread of Fate is concept? Because Morris must use power that able to affect intangibles concepts to defend magic of Dorothy and Vanessa.

The word "concept" in BC refers to "abstractions" , Dreams and fate are abstractions/Conceptual by nature , Morris would need only NPI to handle

 

[AstaDragon123]

The word "concept" in BC refers to "abstractions" , Dreams and fate are abstractions/Conceptual by nature , Morris would need only NPI to handle

Not only that, but he also interjected with those ideas, like this: Should he get CM2 or not?

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Not only that, but he also interjected with those ideas, like this: Should he get CM2 or not?

More context is needed for CM2, and in Morris' case I always believed it was NPI+CM(2/3) and it was never declared exclusive to him because he declares that DevilPower is giving him these capabilities

 

[AstaDragon123]

More context is needed for CM2, and in Morris' case I always believed it was NPI+CM(2/3) and it was never declared exclusive to him because he declares that DevilPower is giving him these capabilities

So Dorothy and Vanessa, what type of CM should they get?

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

So Dorothy and Vanessa, what type of CM should they get?

Dorothy's magic is definitely type 2 as she controls an abstraction (dreams) on a universal scale (world of Glamor) , Now the thread of fate must be individual for each person, which would be type 3

Edit :But I doubt it will be accepted here, as it would affect all spells because of mana

 

[Duedate8898]

Neither Dorothy nor Vanessa would get conceptual manipulation because the root of the powers isn't manipulating concepts its manipulating fate or dreams.

To better explain my point, temperature manipulation is a form of energy manipulation but we don't index both on a profile normally. Instead, if a character is limited to only manipulating temperature with no other energy manipulations we just give them temp manipulation. While Dorothy and Vanessa are manipulating abstractions/concepts their powers are limited specifically to limited fate and dreams and the mechanics behind them aren't in depth enough that we would put them under concept manipulation.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Neither Dorothy nor Vanessa would get conceptual manipulation because the root of the powers isn't manipulating concepts its manipulating fate or dreams.

To better explain my point, temperature manipulation is a form of energy manipulation but we don't index both on a profile normally. Instead, if a character is limited to only manipulating temperature with no other energy manipulations we just give them temp manipulation. While Dorothy and Vanessa are manipulating abstractions/concepts their powers are limited specifically to limited fate and dreams and the mechanics behind them aren't in depth enough that we would put them under concept manipulation.

They are declared concepts

 

[Aseka]

They are declared concepts

They're declared as a concepts because it's an abstract things, it is common for we to consider abstraction as a concept.

 

[Aseka]

You can't consider all abstractions in BC is conceptual on nature, as it doesn't have any further explanations.

 

[Digital_Franz]

They are declared concepts

As Duedate said, they don't really manipulate concepts. Dorothy manipulates dreams, it's true but it's just Dream Manipulation. She does not manipulate the fundamental concept of dreams that exist in the universe. The same goes for Vanessa. She can manipulate fate (and just to a certain degree at that) but she cannot manipulate the fundamental concept of fate.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

They're declared as a concepts because it's an abstract things, it is common for we to consider abstraction as a concept.

Yes, I said exactly that in my first comment

You can't consider all abstractions in BC is conceptual on nature, as it doesn't have any further explanations.

I gave more context, Dorothy has total control of a high 3-A dimension made of dreams, with her dream magic
This makes even the classifications more consistent, we currently consider Dorothy's feat to be an outlier even with statements and direct demonstrations that dream magic is giving control over that entire dimension, if we consider CM2 dream magic, we wouldn't need to assume that it is controlling and creating the entire dimension with his own magical power causing an inconsistency in the verse's UES

As Duedate said, they don't really manipulate concepts. Dorothy manipulates dreams, it's true but it's just Dream Manipulation. She does not manipulate the fundamental concept of dreams that exist in the universe. The same goes for Vanessa. She can manipulate fate (and just to a certain degree at that) but she cannot manipulate the fundamental concept of fate.

Dreams are the fundamental abstraction of the world of Glamor not the universe, dreams exist separately from the conventional universe this is made clear by Dorothy here , that is, the way dreams work in BC, she has control over the concept (dreams) that govern all reality (world of dreams or world of Glamor)

Edit : About Vanessa, she controls the red thread that governs destiny, not destiny itself, her magic is that of "thread" not "destiny"

 

[Digital_Franz]

Dreams are the fundamental abstraction of the world of Glamor not the universe, dreams exist separately from the conventional universe this is made clear by Dorothy here , that is, the way dreams work in BC, she has control over the concept (dreams) that govern all reality (world of dreams or world of Glamor)

Glamor world is just a part of the universe. So yeah she didn't manipulate the concept of dreams. Just the abstraction to an extended level.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Glamor world is just a part of the universe.

It exists separate from the conventional/physical world

So yeah she didn't manipulate the concept of dreams. Just the abstraction to an extended level.

Yes, and this is what we classify as CM2 , the word "concept" is not even necessary for CM and controlling some abstraction on a universal level already fits in CM2

 

[Digital_Franz]

Yes, and this is what we classify as CM2 , the word "concept" is not even necessary for CM and controlling some abstraction on a universal level already fits in CM2

Is the scale then universal?

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Is the scale then universal?

Yes, she uses dream manipulation to distort the reality of a dimension made of dreams on a high 3-A scale.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Yes, she uses dream manipulation to distort the reality of a dimension made of dreams on a high 3-A scale.

Like Reality Warping/Subjective Reality through Dream Manipulation.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Further supporting the fact that this is not CM. She uses Dream Manipulation to induce certain effects but she does not manipulate the true concept of dreams.

 

[King_Gorilla4002-8922]

Like Reality Warping/Subjective Reality through Dream Manipulation.

Yes, these are sub-skills that come with the dream magic set.

Further supporting the fact that this is not CM. She uses Dream Manipulation to induce certain effects but she does not manipulate the true concept of dreams.

how can this actually be an anti-feat? bringing "concepts to reality" is a fairly common application of CM on the Wiki,
dreams are concepts in the verse, but I understand where you're going with this, she manipulates dreams through the "mana of dreams", each magic/attribute in the verse has its own mana that exists as a fundamental aspect in the verse being present in all objects of an attribute that it governs (For example: Water mana is present in water, Fire mana is present in the fire
Etc )through the manipulation of mana from the environment, mages can have "universal" control over objects belonging to their attribute
Dorothy's magic must work in the same way where she manipulates the "dream mana" to manipulate the world of Glamour which is a universe made of dreams

 

[Digital_Franz]

how can this actually be an anti-feat? bringing "concepts to reality" is a fairly common application of CM on the Wiki,
dreams are concepts in the verse, but I understand where you're going with this, she manipulates dreams through the "mana of dreams", each magic/attribute in the verse has its own mana that exists as a fundamental aspect in the verse being present in all objects of an attribute that it governs (For example: Water mana is present in water, Fire mana is present in the fire
Etc )through the manipulation of mana from the environment, mages can have "universal" control over objects belonging to their attribute
Dorothy's magic must work in the same way where she manipulates the "dream mana" to manipulate the world of Glamour which is a universe made of dreams

Yeah pretty much that.