Bleach Bankai Upgrades

[Amlad22]

I'm almost positive that this hasn't been discussed yet and I'm very surprised about that. This is about Bankai increases for all Captain class soul reapers (And no it's not the 5-10x stuff)

First we have to look at a statement made by Toshiro himself about the power of his Shikai compared to his bankai.

http://*********.com/Manga/Bleach/Chapter-548?id=281464#15

Toshiro says that the gap between his Shikai and Bankai is the least amount of any captain. Now why is this important? We have two feats of Toshiro's Shikai and Bankai that we use in his profile

The Shikai one is 4.6e+16 joules and the Bankai One is 2.75e+18 joules

By dividing these we can find the gap between Toshiro's Bankai to be about 59.8x stronger than his Shikai. Now since Toshiro himself said that his zanpakuto has the least gap of any captain, every single captain should have AT LEAST a 59.8x gap between their Shikai and Bankai as well. The people who scale to Toshiro wouldn't be affected but some captains would.

Off the top of my head, Shunsui, Unohana, Urahara, Mayuri and Fullbring Ichigo would all need to be upgraded since they are mountain level+ in Shikai. So they would be at least 59.8x whatever their Shikai ratings are in Bankai. Kenpachi and Ichibei would also be at least 60x their Shikai ratings which I believe are country level.

This is a statement taken directly from Toshiro so there is no reason to doubt it. But I want to see what staff thinks.

 

[Huesito88]

Oh man this reminds me of the good old days in dbz debates

 

[Amlad22]

Yeah I'm hoping people don't get crazy about this. But this will be a decent upgrade for the bleach captains.

 

[Frantzy12]

following

 

[Amlad22]

Wow after actually doing the 59.8 x multiplier to the captains it moves the people who are mountain level+ in Shikai to Island level in Bankai and the country level people to baseline Continent level.

 

[KazuiK]

Wow after actually doing the 59.8 x multiplier to the captains it moves the people who are mountain level+ in Shikai to Island level in Bankai and the country level people to baseline Continent level.

Really.

 

[Amlad22]

@KazuiK

The county level people might only be large country cause I'm not sure if we are using the high end or mid end. Mid end only gives large country level

 

[KazuiK]

I understand, you should ask Soldier Blue to see this, it looks interesting. Will he have updates for the 7-A? Is there anything other than Hitsugaya that they can climb?


I talked about it on some topics but no one answered:

Bazz-B even without his vollstandig did a small wound on the face of Jugram, so it should not be at least 6-C or 6-C High?

https://freemanga.to/chapter/bleach/chapter-630-the-twinned-twilight/8e8a6.html

It is probable that I am mistaken and is only a denial of durability.

 

[Amlad22]

I'm not sure about Bazz-B, you should make a separate thread for that anyway since this is only for captains at the moment

 

[Soldier_Blue]

As I have said numerous times in the past:

I have no doubt that Bankai grants a five to ten fold boost in the user's Reiatsu. But that does not translate to a consistent AP increase per our own AP chart. It's not something Kubo would have had in mind when writing the series.

It's just too inconsistent.

Also, wouldn't using the nearly 60 fold boost of Hitsugaya for every Bankai user be some form of calc stacking? I'm pretty sure it would.

 

[Amlad22]

I'm not even using the 5-10x statement. It would make little sense here i totally agree

As for the 60x, it's not calc stacking at all. I'm scaling the captains based on a statement Toshiro made about the power gap between his Shikai and Bankai. He clearly states his zanpakuto has the LEAST increase between Shikai and Bankai out of ALL the captains. So going off of this every captain should have at least the same increase as Toshiro. There is no evidence showing Toshiro was lying but then again why would he.

I don't know if I can make it any simpler, but the way I look at it is, the other captains like Urahara, Unohana, Kenpachi, etc, shouldn't have less of an increase than Toshiro when Toshiro flat out says his zanpakuto gives the least increase which I found to be slightly under 60x.

 

[LordGinSama]

It wouldn't be calc stacking but I still don't agree with this. However I'd say it's possible for us to come to a compromise, Bankai does increase your Reiatsu greatly which equates to AP. The statement was 5-10 in which we can use the former since it's a low ball. I myself still have problems to an extent with doing this but if others agree with it I'm fine with it. There's another way we could get around this and simply place a "Far higher with Bankai" at the end of everyone with a Bankai AP.

 

[Dat_Dot]

I agree with Soldier and Knight here.

We could just use far higher for Bankai as Knight suggested. Using 60x multiplier just doesn't feel right IMO.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah using a 60 multiplier seems like extreme reaching to me. A far higher with Bankai seems like the safest route.

 

[Theglassman12]

This seems like a HUGE stretch for the bankai's powers. I'm on Soldier's side.

 

[HST_Master]

I agree with Soldier,Knight and Dot, Far Higher sounds like the most reasonable route for everyone with Bankai AP

 

[Zzsax]

Even if the multipliers are used which isn't bad cause, we've seen training a stronger shikai gives a hell of a lot stronger bankai and vice versa(like with byakuya royal training) as they are not separate modes like sage and kcm mode naruto..they are more like dragon balls kaio-ken and SSSS....modes,outright mutipliers are used in DBZ calcs(not Far higher BS) so it's nothing strange,Though it is strange in the HST

either way I am inconclusive about using it,cause unlike DBZ, which you can just multiply and say they punch 10x harder than before..

Bleach abilities are not that easily scaled especially hax ones and yama shikai and bankai power difference would have to be like 300x or more.. So it's inconsistent

 

[Amlad22]

The people who are saying they don't agree could at least give a reason as to why. Nobody has disproved Toshiro's statement yet, I say again, why would Toshiro lie?

 

[Amlad22]

I do see though that far higher could also work. As long as we aren't completely ignoring Toshiro's statement

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I've already said that it's a five to ten fold Reiatsu increase and the corresponding AP increase is quite inconsistent. And using the nearly x60 multiplier in Hitsugaya's case would be problematic for two reasons:

1. It's borderline to complete calc stacking.

2. The power-scaling will be abused via inflated stats for a bunch of characters.

 

[TataHakai]

 

[Soldier_Blue]

What is with those eyebrows?

 

[Amlad22]

@Solider As said above it's not calc stacking, it's finding the difference between two calcs on Toshiro's Shikai and Bankai Power and taking that difference to scale captains by using a statement from Toshiro himself.

Most people seem to agree that far higher would work, which seems ok since we are still taking Toshiro's statement into consideration.

Would the ratings go something like this? (Using Kenny as example)

Country level (Vastly superior to Gerard, who could easily match his Shikai with his eyepatch off) likely far higher (Toshiro stated that his zanpakuto possesses the smallest power gap between Shikai and Bankai amongst the captains, with him possessing a near 60x Increase, Kenpachi's Bankai would likely replicate this increase if not surpass it.)

 

[TataHakai]

What is with those eyebrows?

They're godly amirite

As for this not being calc stacking, it's uhh, yeah it's calc stacking.

You're applying the results you gained from 1 calc to another, just because you throw in a multiplier to hide the calc stacking doesn't suddenly make it not calc stacking.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Country level (Insert the previously discussed 24 Teraton reasoning here), much higher in Bankai (Yoruichi Shihoin states that Bankai grants a Reiatsu boost of five to ten fold. Should thus be far superior to his Shikai state)

 

[Soldier_Blue]

As for this not being calc stacking, it's uhh, yeah it's calc stacking.

You're applying the results you gained from 1 calc to another, just because you throw in a multiplier to hide the calc stacking doesn't suddenly make it not calc stacking.

^ Pretty much.

 

[TataHakai]

Country level (Insert the previously discussed 24 Teraton reasoning here), much higher in Bankai (Yoruichi Shihoin states that Bankai grants a Reiatsu boost of five to ten fold. Should thus be far superior to his Shikai state)

This

I'm fine with Kenny being much higher in Bankai, the 60x multiplier just doesn't make sense

 

[Amlad22]

@Tata now you're confusing me, I found the difference between two calcs, and by going off of a statement, I'm using that difference for an upgrade. How's that calc stacking in the slightest?

@Soldier As discussed before Yorucihi's statememt is far too inconsistent compared to Toshrio's. Which makes sense since one was at the start of a long series and the other was near the end. Anyway, it makes more sense to use Toshiro's since it's harder to debunk as well.

 

[TataHakai]

@Tata now you're confusing me, I found the difference between two calcs, and by going off of a statement, I'm using that difference for an upgrade. How's that calc stacking in the slightest?

Because the difference between the two calcs is still a part of the calcs, you are using the difference (the calc) to apply to another (calc) and get a result from that

That's calc stacking.

 

[Amlad22]

I see what you're saying, but we've still moved past that anyway. So there's no need to worry about any calc stacking. We just need to decide if we put Yoruichi's statement or Toshrio's statement about Bankai in the captains profiles that are affected.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Again I say: The x60 fold increase in Hitsugaya's case is raw AP increase per our own power chart and our own calcs, something Kubo has no clue about. As far as Kubo's own canon is concerned, Hitsugaya got only a five to ten fold reiatsu boost. The non-linear AP increase per our charts and calcs is none of his concern.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

We just need to decide if we put Yoruichi's statement or Toshrio's statement about Bankai in the captains profiles that are affected.

Yoruichi states that a Bankai user gets a five to ten fold reiatsu boost, correct? It's clear that the AP increase per our tiering system is non-linear and inconsistent. It's best to simply not use bankai multipliers, and just put far higher in bankai for the profiles that warrant such.

 

[Amlad22]

We can do Yoruichi's statement too it doesn't really change anything. The captains who need to be changed will still have far higher either way.

As for who needs to be boosted, it's basically everyone who shares the same tier as their Shikai and Bankai. Kenny, Ichibei, Unohana, Urahara, Fullbring Ichigo and Possibly Shunsui would all need it. I'm unsure about Shunsui since he's mostly hax based. But his Reiatsu did jump drastically in Bankai. He was literally leaking Reiatsu in his bankai

 

[Amlad22]

Ok I'm back, can we add this to the needed profiles or not?

 

[Dark649]

I agree with Soldier Blue suggestion.

 

[Amlad22]

Are the needed profiles unlocked?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Hold up. We're discussing something else Bleach related.

Let's get that settled and edit the profiles all in one go.

 

[HST_Master]

Why don't we just have one big revision thread instead of all these separate ones?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Yes, keeping track of all these threads has been a pain.

 

[Homu_Sweet_Homu]

Just saying, some of the Bankai are purely hax. Still not sure if we can use multiplier like, at all.