Bleach God Tiers Upgrade

[ItsMeat]

So, the currently accepted multiplier for this transformation is ×10 because it is considered a Hollow Mask's equivalent, however, it should be faaar greater.

1. The form Ichigo took against Yhwach isn't a simple Hollow Mask​

This form, usually called Horn of Salvation by fans because of the chapter name is the full manifestation of the hollow powers inside him. The same hollow that used to take over Ichigo before, always giving him more power than previously. Ichigo shows such a complete mastery of his hollow powers this time that he is able to use a Gran Rey Cero (something he never did before, not even when fighting Ulquiorra) and even mix it with his own technique, Getsuga Tensho and such a complete usage of his hollow powers that, for the first time ever, his hollowification alters the zanpakto itself. Orihime, who knows Ichigo's full hollow the best instantly compares this form to the form he took back when he lost his control against Ulquiorra and Ichigo did indeed have a huge power boost, going from SK Yhwach's small torrents(And I say small because he could do this, meaning he was clearly toying with Ichigo)' #1 victim to pushing SK Yhwach to not only take him seriously, but also open his Almighty eyes.

2. Now, what value does this multiplier have?​

Post Grimmjow fight Bankai Ichigo needed the mask(10×amp) to make base Ulquiorra serious. Then, Ulquiorra uses his Ressureccion(10×amp), completely washing Ichigo. Then, he activates his second Ressureccion, aka Segunda Etapa (which is considered another 10× amp, based on Ressureccion being the equivalent of Bankai, Uryu commenting how he has never sensed something like it before, Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra's power being too overwhelming, Ulquiorra himself implying this form is his strongest and way stronger than his previous one, etc.), dealing lethal damage to Ichigo with one attack.

By the time Ichigo goes full hollow, he doesn't have a hollow mask anymore, he is merely in a trashed bankai state. Yet, he completely overpowers Ulquiorra to the point of being able to rip off his arm with ease and blocking his strongest attack, Lanza del Rampago(>= 10×) with his bare hand or even very slightly overpower Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuras(>= 10×) with his own normal Cero.

Moreover, Ichigo was at less than 50% of his actual power when going full hollow, although he was at 100% before that, yet the amp was still great enough to make him easily ten times stronger than Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra.

Thus, a Full Hollow amp should be at least 10(Hollow Mask's amp)× 10(Ressureccion)× 10(Segunda Etapa)× 10(Cero Oscuras/Lanza amp)× 2(full power), which is ×20000 times. In fact, this is already accepted, Full hollow Ichigo is rated at 7.789 Exatons, while his Bankai form Post Grimmjow fight is rated at 389.4479 Teratons.

Spoiler: New Values

I will be using the verse page chainscale

• Merged Hollow Form Base Ichigo scales to 20000× 3C (3.68 YottaFoe), getting upgraded to 3B (73.6 RonnaFoe)
• True Zanpakutō Bankai Ichigo/Merged Hollow Form Shikai Ichigo's Cero Creciente/Possibly Merged Hollow Form Shikai Ichigo's Blut, TYBW Aizen, CFYOW Novel Zaraki, Soul King Absorbed Base Yhwach, Emotion-amp Bankai Ginjo's Getsuga Tensho, Second Fight Resurrección Hikone with Limiters released, Ikomikidomoe scale to 10× 3B (73.6 RonnaFoe), getting upgraded to 3B (736 RonnaFoe)
• Merged Hollow Form Bankai Ichigo, Soul King Absorbed Blut Yhwach scale to 10× 3B (736 RonnaFoe), getting upgraded to 3B (7.36 QuettaFoe)
• Merged Hollow Form Bankai Ichigo's Cero Creciente/Possibly Merged Hollow Form Bankai Ichigo's Blut, Likely Prime Soul King scale to 10× 3B (7.36 QuettaFoe), getting upgraded to 3B (73.6 QuettaFoe)
• Possibly Merged Hollow Form Bankai Ichigo's Cero Creciente + Blut, Possibly Prime Soul King/Likely Prime Soul King's Blut scale to 10× 3B (73.6 QuettaFoe), getting upgraded to 3B (736 QuettaFoe)
• Possibly Prime Soul King's Blut scales to 10× 3B (736 QuettaFoe), getting upgraded to 3B (7.36 QuettakiloFoe)

Agree:

Disagree:

 

[GG55HH]

Following

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm no Bleach expert but doesn't Ichigo get blocked by Yhwach with HoS despite him slicing Yhwach in half completely without it or any other form of Hollow Mask? His goo also seems to hit Ichigo without doing any significant damage.

We have super strict multiplier standards and ESPECIALLY ones for derived/inferred multipliers, having even a sliver of relativity like this for what's meant to be tens of thousands of times difference would be an instantaneous defeater.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

blocking his strongest attack, Lanza del Rampago(>= 10×) with his bare hand

This manga panel is being greatly misunderstood. Here, Ichigo is using Partial Resurrection. He's not destroying the Lanza del Relampago without the Amp. We've already seen that One-Armed Ulquiorra's Lanza del Relampago was able to cut off Full Hollow Ichigo's horn.

 

[Saqphire]

I'm no Bleach expert but doesn't Ichigo get blocked by Yhwach with HoS despite him slicing Yhwach in half completely without it or any other form of Hollow Mask? His goo also seems to hit Ichigo without doing any significant damage.

Pretty sure that feat was off-guard, as that first slash was possible due to Aizen catching Yhwach by surprise by using himself as Kyoka Suigetsu bait. The second slash was pretty much right after Yhwach got himself power-nulled so.

If you're referring to when his black reiatsu was overwhelming him, well it's just that, it was overwhelming him and was clearly superior to him

 

[DavidTPPM]

Pretty sure that feat was off-guard, as that first slash was possible due to Aizen catching Yhwach by surprise by using himself as Kyoka Suigetsu bait.

So? Yhwach was still mid fight, does he specifically have to notice an attack to not get dropped by 20k times in that specific area?
Also only the stab was offguard. In the manga Ichigo slices with a GT after that when Yhwach already noticed.

The second slash was pretty much right after Yhwach got himself power-nulled so

I'm rereading it rn and it was actually right before he was PNd. It's freshly after his resurrection and before the arrow hit him.

Also if the power null completely reduces his stats shouldn't Ichigo or Aizen instantly have reiatsu crushed Yhwach into a pile of blood the moment he was weakened? Why would they even need to hit him physically if his defense completely nulled?

 

[ItsMeat]

I'm no Bleach expert but doesn't Ichigo get blocked by Yhwach with HoS despite him slicing Yhwach in half completely without it or any other form of Hollow Mask?

He did it with his bankai which Yhwach feared enough to break instead of fighting it despite being able to basically dodge any attacks by teleporting with the Almighty.

His goo also seems to hit Ichigo without doing any significant damage.

It literally overpowers him, throws him away like he was a fly and makes him bleed and breath heavily merely from the effort of fighting such small attacks and you see him clenching his teeth and all, showing he did indeed struggle quite a lot.

We have super strict multiplier standards and ESPECIALLY ones for derived/inferred multipliers, having even a sliver of relativity like this for what's meant to be tens of thousands of times difference would be an instantaneous defeater.

There is no relativity at all and this multiplier does pass all the criterias: evidence, narrative purpose, no contradiction, insane power boost and is lowkey already accepted to have this value

 

[ItsMeat]

This manga panel is being greatly misunderstood. Here, Ichigo is using Partial Resurrection. He's not destroying the Lanza del Relampago without the Amp.

Ummmm, what?

We've already seen that One-Armed Ulquiorra's Lanza del Relampago was able to cut off Full Hollow Ichigo's horn.

Yes, an offguard attack at Ichigo's weak point which also amplifies Ulquiorra's power enough to be relateable to Full Hollow Ichigo. Like, what's the point here?

 

[DavidTPPM]

He did it with his bankai which Yhwach feared enough to break instead of fighting it despite being able to basically dodge any attacks by teleporting with the Almighty.

So? He was still supposedly 20,000x weaker since he didn't have the HoS. Which means Yhwach should have no sold it thousands of times over. Ichigo could have 3 bankais active at once and not scratch someone relative to this supposed HoS level.

It literally overpowers him, throws him away like he was a fly and makes him bleed and breath heavily merely from the effort of fighting such small attacks and you see him clenching his teeth and all, showing he did indeed struggle quite a lot.

Cool, it should have atomized him. This might be acceptable with a lower multiplier but we're talking 20,000x attack doing 1.5x levels of damage.

 

[ItsMeat]

So? He was still supposedly 20,000x weaker since he didn't have the HoS. Which means Yhwach should have no sold it thousands of times over. Ichigo could have 3 bankais active at once and not scratch someone relative to this supposed HoS level.

Actually only 200× times, don't forget the bankai amp which he didn't have when going hos. And once again, it's a bankai even Almighty SK Yhwach feared enough to avoid fighting it at all costs. It should be no suprise really that he's able to slice an off guard SK Yhwach

Edit: In fact, p sure the true bankai amp is based on the hos amp

Cool, it should have atomized him. This might be acceptable with a lower multiplier but we're talking 20,000x attack doing 1.5x levels of damage.

I already said in the OP, didn't I? He was toying with Ichigo and yet completely overpowering him with goo thousands of times weaker than what he could do.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Yeah, this is also why I didn't put Full Hollow as a 2000x or 20000x* (I forgot about Oscuras 10x when I said 200 or 2000) on Hollow Mask Grimmjow Fight Ichigo or Grimmjow Fight Bankai Ichigo respectively, the same reason why I haven't put True Bankai Ichigo as 100x.

Yes, I do sometimes say they are 100x higher or what not, but it's usually just to demonstrate that they scale to at least that number because of superiority over forms with multipliers that high.

I didn't think I could take the difference in power between Full Hollow Ichigo and his prior forms and use it as a multiplier and I still don't think that now.

Ultimately, I just don't think this works on this wiki, due to multiplier standards.

To be completely clear to everyone, True Bankai Ichigo is indeed 100x stronger compared to True Shikai and Full Hollow Ichigo is indeed 20000x stronger then Grimmjow Fight Bankai Ichigo, but these are based on feats, not multipliers. If a character is 100x stronger then someone else, that doesn't mean there's a 100x multiplier in play and I certainly don't see how it's possible to do what's being proposed in the OP, that being taking the power difference between Full Hollow Ichigo and Grimmjow Fight Bankai Ichigo and using that as a multiplier for Merged Hollow Ichigo.

 

[ItsMeat]

Yeah, this is also why I didn't put Full Hollow as a 2000x or 20000x* (I forgot about Oscuras 10x when I said 200 or 2000) on Hollow Mask Grimmjow Fight Ichigo or Grimmjow Fight Bankai Ichigo respectively, the same reason why I haven't put True Bankai Ichigo as 100x.

Yes, I do sometimes say they are 100x higher or what not, but it's usually just to demonstrate that they scale to at least that number because of superiority over forms with multipliers that high.

I didn't think I could take the difference in power between Full Hollow Ichigo and his prior forms and use it as a multiplier and I still don't think that now.

Ultimately, I just don't think this works on this wiki, due to multiplier standards.

To be completely clear to everyone, True Bankai Ichigo is indeed 100x stronger compared to True Shikai and Full Hollow Ichigo is indeed 20000x stronger then Grimmjow Fight Bankai Ichigo, but these are based on feats, not multipliers. If a character is 100x stronger then someone else, that doesn't mean there's a 100x multiplier in play and I certainly don't see how it's possible to do what's being proposed in the OP, that being taking the power difference between Full Hollow Ichigo and Grimmjow Fight Bankai Ichigo and using that as a multiplier for Merged Hollow Ichigo.

The power difference between FH Ichigo and his prior forms isn't taken here as a difference. Adding a few Exatons to 3.68YottaFoes makes no difference, the form works clearly as a multiplier. And we also know the amount of times it multiplied Ichigo's power in the past. This CRT is about Ichigo using that multiplier

 

[DragoZeroNova]

The power difference as a multiplier means using the difference in power (20000x) as a multiplier

 

[ItsMeat]

And we also know the amount of times it multiplied Ichigo's power in the past. This CRT is about Ichigo using that multiplier

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I didn't think I could take the difference in power between Full Hollow Ichigo and his prior forms and use it as a multiplier and I still don't think that now.

taking the power difference between Full Hollow Ichigo and Grimmjow Fight Bankai Ichigo and using that as a multiplier for Merged Hollow Ichigo.

 

[ItsMeat]

And what exactly is the reasoning?

P sure I proved we're talking about full hollow amp

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Ummmm, what?

Watch the chase between Grimmjow and Askin, and you'll understand what I mean. Vasto Lord destroys Lanza Del Relampago by transforming his hand.

Yes, an offguard attack at Ichigo's weak point which also amplifies Ulquiorra's power enough to be relateable to Full Hollow Ichigo. Like, what's the point here?

I wrote Vasto Lord's physical AP to scale to Ulquiorra's Lanza del Relampago.

VL Durability < Lanza del Relampago
VL with Partial Resurrection > Lanza del Relampago

 

[DavidTPPM]

Actually only 200× times,

I'm ngl, the fact you said "only 200x" made me giggle. Wdym "only" that's like 50x above what the wiki considers a one shot gap

I already said in the OP, didn't I? He was toying with Ichigo

No he wasn't. This looks way more like he was going "I'm going to pulverize your entire existence" than "haha I'm toying with you frfr"

and yet completely overpowering him with goo thousands of times weaker than what he could do.

Why would it be thousands of times weaker than what he can do? Yeah they may be smaller but that doesn't make it's AP any lower. Especially not by such a ridiculous amount

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm no Bleach expert but doesn't Ichigo get blocked by Yhwach with HoS despite him slicing Yhwach in half completely without it or any other form of Hollow Mask? His goo also seems to hit Ichigo without doing any significant damage.

We have super strict multiplier standards and ESPECIALLY ones for derived/inferred multipliers, having even a sliver of relativity like this for what's meant to be tens of thousands of times difference would be an instantaneous defeater.

To add. This is our multiplier page:

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

Yhwach not being one shot is direct evidence against a boost of this magnitude.

 

[ItsMeat]

I'm ngl, the fact you said "only 200x" made me giggle. Wdym "only" that's like 50x above what the wiki considers a one shot gap

Because that's way less than you tried to make it look like

No he wasn't. This looks way more like he was going "I'm going to pulverize your entire existence" than "haha I'm toying with you frfr"

And that panel is from the first time ever Yhwach actually attempts to merge the realms through his power? It's way after Yhwach just toys with Icjigo and laughs at him

Why would it be thousands of times weaker than what he can do? Yeah they may be smaller but that doesn't make it's AP any lower. Especially not by such a ridiculous amount

The attack he did show later should be thousands of times greater than the small torrents he used against Ichigo and quantity does make for extra force which is mass×acceleration

Watch the chase between Grimmjow and Askin, and you'll understand what I mean.

Ik it well enough and i still don't see, can you just explicitly state it? Also, what does Vasto Lorde have to do with Askin vs Grimmjow chase?

Vasto Lord destroys Lanza Del Relampago by transforming his hand.

Yes, by growing claws. Still casually matches and sloghtly overpowers Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuras with his casual Cero for example, there is no reason to believe those claws are a significant amp or smthm

I wrote Vasto Lord's physical AP to scale to Ulquiorra's Lanza del Relampago.

Yes, they should be even

VL Durability < Lanza del Relampago
VL with Partial Resurrection > Lanza del Relampago

Ulquiorra's Lanza being able to hurt Vasto Lorde Ichigo when they are even means…nothing… And there's no such thing as "partial ressurection" or smth unless you mean the claws which is just strange.

Being able to block an attack≠automatically scaling above it and being able to hatm someine also≠automatically scaling above them so your chain is lowkey wrong

Yhwach not being one shot is direct evidence against a boost of this magnitude.

Yhwach wasn't one shot because that's where he actually scales, it's already accepted that he and HoS ichigo scale to the same value

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Ik it well enough and i still don't see, can you just explicitly state it? Also, what does Vasto Lorde have to do with Askin vs Grimmjow chase?

I told you to watch the chase between Grimmjow and Askin so you could understand what Partial Resurrection is.

Partial Resurrection: This is when an Arrancar transforms only a specific part of their body instead of their entire body to save time.

If Grimmjow had transformed their entire body, Askin would have escaped by the time he transformed. That's why they only transformed their hand. Although it's visually Base Grimmjow, the stats of the Resurrection form are there.

Even though we don't see the Vasto Lord's Resurrection form, we see them using Partial Resurrection on their own hand to destroy Ulquiorra's LDR. So it's not Base Vasto Lord, it's Resurrection Vasto Lord destroying the LDR. You're interpreting this as the amp of transforming into Vasto Lord. This is the amp of Resurrection. If the character hadn't amped their hand, Lanza del Relampago would have dealt damage to them.

there is no reason to believe those claws are a significant amp or smthm

Resurrection is a significant empowerment.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It always seemed to me that the hollow form that stomped Ulquiorra was not an amp so much as Zangetsu, effectively a different and far stronger being, taking control and doing the fighting. I'm not sure we can treat a similar looking transformation as a similar jump in power at the end.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It always seemed to me that the hollow form that stomped Ulquiorra was not an amp so much as Zangetsu, effectively a different and far stronger being, taking control and doing the fighting.

It is, it's why Ulquiorra says the following when he sees Ichigo for the first time. White's full power (which was the high flux) was noted by Ulquiorra in an internal monologue as being superior to himself.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It is, it's why Ulquiorra says the following when he sees Ichigo for the first time. White's full power (which was the high flux) was noted by Ulquiorra in an internal monologue as being superior to himself.

If that's the case it isn't the form alone that made that amplification to his power. It was literally a different entity.

 

[Duedate8898]

Unless you get some clear statements in here of any multiplier greater than the at least 10x we already have, a 20000x multiplier just isn't going to work. For now, I'm against this OP.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Yeah Hard Disagree

 

[ItsMeat]

I told you to watch the chase between Grimmjow and Askin so you could understand what Partial Resurrection is.

Partial Resurrection: This is when an Arrancar transforms only a specific part of their body instead of their entire body to save time.

If Grimmjow had transformed their entire body, Askin would have escaped by the time he transformed. That's why they only transformed their hand.

It has no officisl name so I was confused but ok if this is what you meant

Although it's visually Base Grimmjow, the stats of the Resurrection form are there.

That's the problem, we don't know how many times it amplifies something or what it amplifies at all. And all we know about lanza is that it's a greater amp than 10 times but we have no exact value for that either.

Even though we don't see the Vasto Lord's Resurrection form, we see them using Partial Resurrection on their own hand to destroy Ulquiorra's LDR. So it's not Base Vasto Lord, it's Resurrection Vasto Lord destroying the LDR. You're interpreting this as the amp of transforming into Vasto Lord. This is the amp of Resurrection. If the character hadn't amped their hand, Lanza del Relampago would have dealt damage to them.

It's still partial ressurection. And yes, dealing damage to someone equal to you isn't really impossible, yk…

Resurrection is a significant empowerment.

And there's also the feat of slightly overpowering cero oscuras with his base cero which still scales him 10 times higher than se ulq which is accepted. I don't really see your point.

If that's the case it isn't the form alone that made that amplification to his power. It was literally a different entity.

Yes, an entity 10 times stronger than Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra which has to use a small amp as Appolonir pointed out in order to block an attack that we treat as an ×10(althought it's a bit greater, but the exact value is unknown) amp from Seguna Etapa Ulquiorra

Which is the exact same entity Ichigo uses in his HoS form

Treating this as an addition to his power instead of an amplifier makes no sense as I already said above, a few Exatons added would do absolutely nothing.

Unless you get some clear statements in here of any multiplier greater than the at least 10x we already have, a 20000x multiplier just isn't going to work. For now, I'm against this OP.

Ummmm, what about the huge jump from being victimised by the small torrents Yhwach used compared to what he could actually do, implying he's been massively holding back a lot to pushing SK Yhwach to even open his Almighty eyes?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Because Zangetsu is literally a separate being. It's not an amp, it's literally a different character with different levels of power.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Yes, an entity 10 times stronger than Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra which has to use a small amp as Appolonir pointed out in order to block an attack that we treat as an ×10(althought it's a bit greater, but the exact value is unknown) amp from Seguna Etapa Ulquiorra

This isn't a small boost; it provides the same amount of power as actual resurrection.

And there's also the feat of slightly overpowering cero oscuras with his base cero which still scales him 10 times higher than se ulq which is accepted. I don't really see your point.

Only Normal Cero scales to Cero Oscuras, which I disagree with. That same Cero later couldn't kill Offguard Ulquiorra; it only lost an arm and a leg.

 

[Excellence616]

Because Zangetsu is literally a separate being. It's not an amp, it's literally a different character with different levels of power.

Zangetsu is not a separate being. He is a zanpakuto.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Zangetsu is not a separate being. He is a zanpakuto.

It can take over his body, has a separate personality from him, and is shown to be stronger than him not just there, but afterwards as well. It isn't Ichigo, but a separate entity.