Bleach Big Calc problems

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah, 50–80 km is just wrong for anyone who has read Bleach.

First, the Royal Palace is stated to be located in another dimension, so the presence of clouds is not automatically an anti-feat. Second, there is the fact that Ichibei sent Yhwach 1000 ri horizontally first, and then slapped him downward as well, yet Yhwach still never came close to reaching the Seireitei. With 1000 ri being 3900 km, so that as well debunk any 50km claim.

An example can be: Since Ichigo took 9 hours and 15 min, since we saw Ichigo breaking the sound barrier:

Speed of sound ≈ 343 m/s = 1,234.8 km/h

Distance: 1,234.8 × 9.25 = 11,421.9 km

That is like a very minimum distance.

This sounds relatively reasonable. It's not too much above the end of earth's exosphere (about 10,000 km) and also doesn't lowball it to something silly like 50km.

Also the lack of the time on the clock in the anime version shouldn't necessarily debunk the 9ish hour mark. Anime is the primary canon but that doesn't completely de-canonize the manga, only in case where they contradict each other.

And the anime not having a visibly clock does not contradict the clock showing a certain time in the manga

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Ri can vary immensely in value, what value are you using exactly?
Not to mention Yhwach NEVER flies this whole distance down anyway, he launches himself upwards as he's flying down

Old japanese RI value which is what the wiki accept for Bleach, and even if it launches himself back, that still debuk 50 km since the attack was supposed to send him down 3k km. 50km is less than 1% of the distance.

Even this would again put it far into outer space

That debunks nothing, honestly. The cosmology is not remotely linear, and there are hundreds of dimensions basically everywhere, with tunnels already shown to connect them as well. The fact that Ichigo took that much time in the manga should already prove that any realistic distance such as 50 km is completely nonsensical.

He was literally breaking the sound barrier on screen. If the distance were only 50 km, he would have reached the bottom in about 145.77 seconds, which completely defeats the whole narrative of a roughly 20-chapter span and the idea that he was taking a long time. Let’s be serious.

 

[ItsMeat]

Can we not use shunpo to get the distance? i mean og calc uses Ichigo travel speed is faster than lightning

I'd actually use it for fair values because it's the only exact timeframe we have…

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Its a unit of measurement in korea, china, japan, with different values
But anyway Ym already mentioned how it can simply be hyperbolic as well

Yeah, but...this is a terrible argument. Do you think Kubo meant Korean Ri when writing Bleach? He's very obviously using the Japanese measurement, this is a poor argument.

I won't argue against the hyperbolic stuff, I'll leave the actual distance to others. I just want people to understand that if Kubo writes in Japanese and what he wrote has a different meaning in China or Korea, you shouldn't be using the Korean/Chinese definition to try and cast doubt onto what they're saying unless the Manga itself makes it clear it's meant to be Korean/Chinese/whatever.

 

[Mommyleona]

Old japanese RI value which is what the wiki accept for Bleach, and even if it launches himself back, that still debuk 50 km since the attack was supposed to send him down 3k km. 50km is less than 1% of the distance.

Why exactly? Do we have some sort of way of finding out how much down he flew? He could've stopped himself right at the beginning
and again, it's just a hyperbolic way of saying long distance

That debunks nothing, honestly. The cosmology is not remotely linear, and there are hundreds of dimensions basically everywhere, with tunnels already shown to connect them as well.

I do not see how some "dimensions" existing mean that the royal palace isnt just above the clouds, consistently

The fact that Ichigo took that much time in the manga should already prove that any realistic distance such as 50 km is completely nonsensical.

The timeframe of a random clock in the background that ichigo breaks when landing isnt a hard timeframe in any way

He was literally breaking the sound barrier on screen.

Im pretty sure that's just him using Shunpo, nothing implies he flew at a constant speed of sound

 

[Overvoid69]

That's such a weird non sequitur (haha big nerd words).

The dimension is visibly located near the clouds as we literally see them right below the dimension, and below space as we know soul reapers can't survive in space and yet they can fly directly into the dimension without any problems.

The fact that the palace is in a different dimension doesn't matter whatsoever, what is being discussed is the distance of that dimension from the ground which the presence of dimensional barriers is inconsequential to.

Even this would again put it far into outer space

It's time to drop this point. They don't have to cross out of Soul Society's atmosphere and into space explicitly for it to be more then ground to space distance, because there crossing dimensions. Your both missing the point completely and making assumptions
look at this

 

[EnchantingGgg]

Why exactly? Do we have some sort of way of finding out how much down he flew? He could've stopped himself right at the beginning
and again, it's just a hyperbolic way of saying long distance

I do not see how some "dimensions" existing mean that the royal palace isnt just above the clouds, consistently

The timeframe of a random clock in the background that ichigo breaks when landing isnt a hard timeframe in any way

Im pretty sure that's just him using Shunpo, nothing implies he flew at a constant speed of sound

If we don’t use the 9 hours timeframe wouldn’t we then default to the 12 hours half a day statement?

 

[Mommyleona]

It's time to drop this point. They don't have to cross out of Soul Society's atmosphere and into space explicitly for it to be more then ground to space distance, because there crossing dimensions. Your both missing the point completely and making assumptions
look at this

I dont see why it should be dropped when its a valid concern

When the barriers have been broken down by Ichigo's fall, there's a straight up way that Yhwach goes, without needing some portal to actually get there
So clearly those are not "dimensional barriers", and you can indeed cross that distance when there isn't anything in the way

 

[Mommyleona]

If we don’t use the 9 hours timeframe wouldn’t we then default to the 12 hours half a day statement?

That was for Ichigo going down the stairs with Shunpo

 

[Infinite9Luck]

Why exactly? Do we have some sort of way of finding out how much down he flew? He could've stopped himself right at the beginning
and again, it's just a hyperbolic way of saying long distance

I do not see how some "dimensions" existing mean that the royal palace isnt just above the clouds, consistently

The timeframe of a random clock in the background that ichigo breaks when landing isnt a hard timeframe in any way

Im pretty sure that's just him using Shunpo, nothing implies he flew at a constant speed of sound

It is not hyperbolic in any way. 1000 ri is literal. Just because something can be hyperbolic does not mean it is hyperbolic always, especially when ri is used as an actual measurement by Bleach characters multiple times. Why should Ichibei suddenly be speaking hyperbolically? You have no proof it is an hyperbole, regardless, this doesn't affect any assumptions on my calc.

It does not matter if he was using shunpo: the sound barrier literally broke. Unless you believe he only used that speed at the start and then somehow slowed down from 300+ m/s to 9 m/s despite gravity, your argument makes no sense.

The chapter span is from around chapter 555, where he starts traveling, to around chapter 580 or so, when he arrives. During that span, we again see him breaking sound speed both at the start and the end. Both of these points contradict the idea of 1) a short timeframe in seconds and 2) a slow travel speed, unless you believe the events of 30 chapters happened in 60 seconds.

You are making zero reasonable assumptions. I am not going to take any 50 km argument seriously anymore. So I'll be back in this thread if some staff or mod want more clarification.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I’m getting told that this is a different dimension so the place being beyond the atmosphere doesn’t mean much, which I would agree. But others are telling me Ichigo can flie/fall down from that place to the world normally.

Now I ask you knowledgeable members, what is the context of that?

If it’s a different space-time how can Ichigo cross the distance and reach the place?

 

[DavidTPPM]

You don't know what are the stats of a soul…

That's why I pointed out people like Orihime, Chad, or Uryu have also not noticed a difference. Since their stats shouldn't change when traversing between the realms meaning if there's a significant difference they should notice it.

Same with regular soul reapers which I mentioned. Their stats also have no reason to change when traveling between the two worlds and yet not a single one ever points out even the smallest difference.

Also, gravity could be one of them

So we don't know. So you have no evidence for it while we have dozens of people traversing between the realms without a single mention of a different gravity.

If you want other laws that are different, you could check thermodynamics and what would actually happen irl if an object would rapidly go to absolute 0

Can you actually prove this is caused by SS having different laws of thermodynamics and not just by Rukias bankai being a supernatural magical ability?

Because if we so should immediately go slap a weakness in Rukias profile stating she can't use her bankai outside of SS!

Also are you suggesting WoTL has different principles of conservation of energy? Since Ichigos AP is clearly leagues ahead of his DC even in WOTL and we already acknowledge on the wiki that the concept of AP≠DC contradicts those principles. Because if so, we have absolutely no reason to believe WOTL has the same laws of thermodynamics as IRL world has either which completely debunks your theory here.

You don't know that, just as you don't know Soul Society's size.

I literally just gave you a list of evidences that tell us this.

You ignoring the evidence we present doesn't mean it stops existing.

All I'm saying is that it is completely different, both shape and size wise.

Nothing suggests it's different in size while the behaviors we mentioned multiple times already suggest similar size.

The only thing suggesting a different size from earth is the shape which like I explained actually implies a MUCH smaller size instead.

Once and forever, different laws. Is this the first time you ever hear about a flat realm in fiction? At least Kubo did bring the justification of it having different laws, other authors don't even do that.

You're using the "different laws" thing as a convenient excuse for anything you don't like but you completely fail to actually show evidence that the differences are even relevant to this specific case.

Which is especially bad given the preponderance of evidence we're providing that suggests otherwise.

It's up to you to prove it would be crushed following Soul Society's laws

Oh so when I claim something based on soul society's laws I have to prove it, but when you claim something based on soul society's laws you don't?

So right back at you, it's up to you to prove Soul Society's laws would make the clouds hover millions of times higher than they should.

It's more than slightly and the place is explicitly extremely different from Earth.

No it's not.
I'm honestly getting tired of talking to you. I keep providing evidence it's similar and all you do is say "nah they're different trust me bro".

I'd appreciate if you stopped stonewalling me and either actually started providing arguments and evidence, or just stopped spamming me with empty claims.

There is still no reason to do that and better replacements can easily be found such as using a week of shunpo speed keeping in mind it's a spiral and measuring its radius and angle to determine what the vertical distance is

Sure then suggest that. Noone is stopping you.

But you're trying to portray the entire thread as bad because of this small niche part of it when that specific part is the only thing completely up to change.

Slightly lowballed?? It wouldn't even take 10 minutes to reach earth free falling from that distance, it took ichigo like half a day while dashing at full speed. The value in the OP is far worse than the already existing one

Compared to 14 million km glaze, 50-80 kilometers is "slightly lowballed".

The 50km mark is still closer to the 11,000 kilometers mark (based on supersonic travel for 9 hours) than the current 14 million km mark is.

It's still what the OP argues for.

No, it's a suggested replacement in case no better replacement is found.

You're trying to portray it as something the OP actively argues for in order to bring the whole thread down.

There's no strawman here except yours about it having some similarities to Earth as of that would prove its size or about gravity crushing it.

Do you even know what a strawman is? If not that's fine but you should be forward with that so we can explain.

Because the way you used it here is completely nonsensical.

Ichigo doesn't have to rest, he can already run on a threadmill for an entire week without a break since before Hueco Mundo arc. Isshin could continuously do the job of 4 soul reapers for 2000 hours without a break. Unohana can fight for 3 days without any break while continuously healing herself and Zaraki. Pre SS arc Ichigo coukd fight wothout a break for 5 days. They do have the stamina.

There's a huge difference between moving and moving at your top speed upstairs.

 

[EnchantingGgg]

That was for Ichigo going down the stairs with Shunpo

Eh? Why would we assume Ichigo wouldn’t have jumped either way? A part of your argument is that he used shunpo midair why wouldn’t he just do that to save the time Tenjiro mentioned?

 

[DavidTPPM]

It's time to drop this point. They don't have to cross out of Soul Society's atmosphere and into space explicitly for it to be more then ground to space distance, because there crossing dimensions. Your both missing the point completely and making assumptions
look at this

They DO need to cross into space if the dimension is in space.

In this context there's practically no difference between the palace being in a giant space station and being behind dimensional walls. Because you still need to get to the station/dimensional walls through space that surrounds it.

But don't worry because the dimension is blatantly not in space, as it's visibly directly above clouds.

 

[EnchantingGgg]

I’m getting told that this is a different dimension so the place being beyond the atmosphere doesn’t mean much, which I would agree. But others are telling me Ichigo can flie/fall down from that place to the world normally.

Now I ask you knowledgeable members, what is the context of that?

If it’s a different space-time how can Ichigo cross the distance and reach the place?

Okay so, from what’s exactly stated in the manga, it’s vaguely a different dimension separated by multiple barriers that have to be broken by the Oken. The exact way they are separated is never given and afaik both sides are just arguing different interps as the structure is never explained in great detail beyond said vague barrier to a diff dimension. For everyone else after they either use the open barrier to traverse to the SKP or they just teleport using diff methods.

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Mommyleona @Overvoid69 @DavidTPPM @ItsMeat @Infinite9Luck

I know you guys disagree with each other, but there is no point in cluttering this thread because, in the end, me and the others CGM will decide the better approach, and this approach will be decided not by you guys arguing over and over again, but by explaining stuff to us and conceding points to one another in order for a better outcome, a middle ground that pleases both sides.

So, can you guys please stop arguing nonstop? Ya’ll are not gonna change each other‘s mind, so what’s the point?

I think there are problems with considering Ichigo was running nonstop at the speed of lightning since the original statement is hella vague and doesn’t imply that for Grimmjow, and we clearly see Ichigo breaking the sound barrier and staying at that. So the calculation has issues. On the other hand, the anime not having the clock doesn’t mean much, wasn’t Ichigo on a hurry and he said he can arrive at half a day? And I’m pretty sure he achieved that. So it’s either 9.5 or 12 hours.

Can we achieve a middle ground here? Otherwise I’d have to ask some of you to not comment here in order to keep this thread from being derailed and cluttered.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I’m getting told that this is a different dimension so the place being beyond the atmosphere doesn’t mean much, which I would agree. But others are telling me Ichigo can flie/fall down from that place to the world normally.

Now I ask you knowledgeable members, what is the context of that?

If it’s a different space-time how can Ichigo cross the distance and reach the place?

So, the Royal Palace is located in a different dimension, but it's also located above the regular Soul Society. The reason Ichigo can cross back to the Soul Society is because he was given clothes that act as the Oken, which lets him open the dimensional barrier around the Royal Palace.

So, the Royal Palace is in another dimension, but that dimension itself is somewhere far above the Soul Society.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I’m getting told that this is a different dimension so the place being beyond the atmosphere doesn’t mean much, which I would agree. But others are telling me Ichigo can flie/fall down from that place to the world normally.

Now I ask you knowledgeable members, what is the context of that?

If it’s a different space-time how can Ichigo cross the distance and reach the place?

It is not a different space-time, it is just a physical separated space. With a tunnel. That is why you can physically travel (only if you have Oken as well, which need to break the barriers)

Also the anime directly says Ichigo should took half a day for the timeframe... which just support the manga... actually we can use this likely.

Using sound speed ≈ 343 m/s: 12 hours = 43,200 s

Distance = speed × time

Distance = 343 × 43,200

Distance = 14,817,600 m

Convert to km: 14,817,600 / 1000 = 14,817.6 km

With 9 hours and 15 min:

Speed of sound ≈ 343 m/s = 1,234.8 km/h

Distance: 1,234.8 × 9.25 = 11,421.9 km

 

[Overvoid69]

I dont see why it should be dropped when its a valid concern

It should be dropped because it isn't a concern, as we've alr explained to you

When the barriers have been broken down by Ichigo's fall, there's a straight up way that Yhwach goes, without needing some portal to actually get there
So clearly those are not "dimensional barriers", and you can indeed cross that distance when there isn't anything in the way

Yes they are dimensional barriers and those are what seperates the two spaces, and if said barriers are broken only then can u pass over to the 2nd Dimension. Yhwach flying up to the SKP doesn't debunk anything? He's would still just be crossing into another dimension at some point.

They DO need to cross into space if the dimension is in space.

In this context there's practically no difference between the palace being in a giant space station and being behind dimensional walls. Because you still need to get to the station/dimensional walls through space that surrounds it.

But don't worry because the dimension is blatantly not in space, as it's visibly directly above clouds.

Missing the point once again
You don't know the distance up to space in the 2nd dimension, unless u can quantify that the cloud and space metrics don't work as a cap.

 

[Mommyleona]

It is not hyperbolic in any way. 1000 ri is literal.

based on?

why would this example prove that a "1000 ri" said by Ichibei, which is used for long distance very often, is actually literal?
not like it matters since we never see Yhwach fly that distance

It does not matter if he was using shunpo: the sound barrier literally broke.

Oh and do i mention that you can only break the sound barrier like that within the atmosphere?

Unless you believe he only used that speed at the start and then somehow slowed down from 300+ m/s to 9 m/s despite gravity, your argument makes no sense.

He'd have to go basically crush through the layers of barriers, so he can slow down too

The chapter span is from around chapter 555, where he starts traveling, to around chapter 580 or so, when he arrives. During that span, we again see him breaking sound speed both at the start and the end. Both of these points contradict the idea of 1) a short timeframe in seconds and 2) a slow travel speed, unless you believe the events of 30 chapters happened in 60 seconds.

Chapter number doesn't matter since no clear timeframe, we also dont know the exact point of him starting to fly down outside of "3 hours into the invasion"

Eh? Why would we assume Ichigo wouldn’t have jumped either way? A part of your argument is that he used shunpo midair why wouldn’t he just do that to save the time Tenjiro mentioned?

Because that's what his first intention?
Tenjiro says its a week with shunpo, ichigo then says he can cross that if he hurries up in half a day, but then he's told the invasion already started, so he decides to just jump straight down instead

snip

Alright then

It should be dropped because it isn't a concern, as we've alr explained to you

And i refuted that

Yes they are dimensional barriers

Nothing here says that

those are what seperates the two spaces,

grasping at that vague statement doesn't solve the issue of Yhwach going to SK palace with no portal needed

and if said barriers are broken only then can u pass over to the 2nd Dimension.

"defensive capabilities" those are being described as just literally simple barriers, like a physical wall
why would there be a need for SEVENTY TWO of them in the way, if just one 1 would prevent any entrance

Yhwach flying up to the SKP doesn't debunk anything? He's would still just be crossing into another dimension at some point.

how is he getting into another dimension without a portal of any sort?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Hey did you read or watch the series you’re making a crt on?

The passage to SKP was left open when Ichigo descended. Like it’s deadass explained by Yhwach. @Mommyleona

 

[M3X_2.0]

Okay, with some order here we can work better.

I disagree with the 80km suggestions. If it was just a 80km distance, Ichigo would've been flying at 2.403 m/s speeds for 9 hours and 15 minutes, and 1.851 m/s for half a day, which is toddler running speeds, probably. And it's counterintuitive, since he'd go faster by just jumping and letting gravity do the job. So just you guys can understand, Felix Baumgartner is a human being that jumped from nearly 39km above the ground and hit speeds of Mach 1.25 before the denser air slowed him down, from 80km, Ichigo could've easily reach Mach 3.65 before the air slows him down.

But there is some issues with assuming Ichigo was flying down at the speed of sound, because there is the fact that Shinigami can't survive in space, which seems to be a very established thing with Kenpachi if I'm not mistaken. Unless we assume the place has some magical atmosphere or that this "dimension" has its own atmosphere. The second issue is how we see clouds near that palace, just a few kilometers below it. Clouds can't exist that much high, unless the anime also adapted Kubo's art inconsistency, which is obviously a joke. This is what someone pointed to me:

Issue 3, Issue 4 and Issue 5 would still exist even with that distance

Issue 3 because again it is still near clouds, the highest cloud on earth can only be 85km above sea-level. If the palace was a whole over 11 thousand km away from clouds, they wouldn't be visible at all, for comparission, this is how the earth looks when you are only a mere 100 km above the surface in the Kármán line. The distance currently being put is almost the same exact diameter as the earth, you'd need to stack another earth on top of the earth to reach the palace even tho clouds are right there.

Issue 4 because Shinigami still can't survive, nor breathe in space, the most you can breath, even ignoring air pressure, is 100km as by that point only 0.00007% of the atmosphere exists beyond the 100km line. That's already outer space and it'd immediatly kill them, we literally see how fast they start being affected lol, they'd have to be MFTL+++++ to reach a level where they can breath before dying.

Issue 5 because even with 11km, this walls would need to be FTL or higher, even tho they are just falling from there. And the fact that the argument even right now is that Ichigo takes 9.5 hours while boosting himself at sound speed towards where gravity is pulling him, Gerald falling would take 2.5 days for him to fall.

I think the distance is definitely larger than 80km, but much, much smaller than 14 million kilometers, which sounds very stupid, and honestly kinda shameful that it got approved.

 

[M3X_2.0]

80km makes Ichigo slow as hell, and also very stupid. 11k or 14k kilometers also makes no sense with the comment I quoted. So I want us to focus on the things I brought up before proceeding. Can we please work together to find a middle ground and something you guys would agree?

 

[EnchantingGgg]

Because that's what his first intention?
Tenjiro says its a week with shunpo, ichigo then says he can cross that if he hurries up in half a day, but then he's told the invasion already started, so he decides to just jump straight down instead

This doesn’t work within ur proposal for me icl. Even if I granted that this was in reference to the stairs, the 12 hour timeframe would still be relevant as Shunpo is being used in both examples. The stairs would add time sure but the difference CAN NOT be from 12 hours to like 10 minutes if the proposed 50km is used. This ignores the fact I have no real reason to think Ichigo would be able to calc the time it takes for him to use the stairs instead of just flying down as the way he even gauges the distance is him flying upwards as opposed to taking stairs.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Outer space quite literally doesn't matter here. It’s a closed off dimension inside Soul Society rhat is its own space. The only way to get there is by following a specific path as seen by the map Kisuke had.

You don’t just fly above some clouds lmao.

I like how we see the sun above the Reioku

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@M3X_2.0 They’re not in outer space. Those clouds are in the SKP. This Kenpachi thing is severely blown out. These characters go through Garganta which is a void, I’ve never seen anyone struggling to breathe. Kubo seems to arbritarily decide if they function like humans or not.

 

[M3X_2.0]

A friend will comment here pretty soon with an elaborated argument, so I'd ask everyone here to be patience. I asked for you guys to no clutter, it doesn't mean you guys can't comment if it's gonna be helpful, which is what I'm expecting, hence my comments to keep some order here. It's hard to moderate threads okay?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I like how we see the sun above the Reioku

This isn’t a gotcha moment. Let’s say this is the same sun as the one in the main dimension. Tell me how exactly does it come out of Soul Society and into the closed off SKP?

Why is there only a single path to something above the clouds?

 

[EnchantingGgg]

I like how we see the sun above the Reioku

Irrelevant cuz bums like Yukio are capable of making subspaces with fake suns contained in them, and Aizen just has a working sun in Los Noches for some reason, the shit has UV rays too he just wanted to hoe #9

Also iirc Wanden doesn’t have a visible sun and it’s reformed (but I’ll need to double check that in the anime)

 

[Overvoid69]

Nothing here says that

It's called putting two and two together (two seperate dimensions have barriers in between)

grasping at that vague statement doesn't solve the issue of Yhwach going to SK palace with no portal needed

stop moving the goalpost and calling it vague by ignoring every ounce of context giving to you.

"defensive capabilities" those are being described as just literally simple barriers, like a physical wall
why would there be a need for SEVENTY TWO of them in the way, if just one 1 would prevent any entrance

Nope they are barriers and he specifically needs the Ouken material to be able to penetrate said dimension barriers and to be able to survive the resulting friction, nothing in that scan suggests they aren't dimensional barriers. And as for your question why is there being 72 a inherent issue? Ur resulting to headcanon assumptions now...

how is he getting into another dimension without a portal of any sort?

We don't see how Yhwach crosses into the Soul King Palace's dimension in the manga, these are the 2 manga pages we get. So once again you haven't debunked anything

 

[ItsMeat]

That's why I pointed out people like Orihime, Chad, or Uryu have also not noticed a difference. Since their stats shouldn't change when traversing between the realms meaning if there's a significant difference they should notice it.
Same with regular soul reapers which I mentioned. Their stats also have no reason to change when traveling between the two worlds and yet not a single one ever points out even the smallest difference.

And why would they notice any difference? The different laws do explain all that.

So we don't know. So you have no evidence for it while we have dozens of people traversing between the realms without a single mention of a different gravity.

And why would there be a different gravity on the surface? Again, different laws

Can you actually prove this is caused by SS having different laws of thermodynamics and not just by Rukias bankai being a supernatural magical ability?

Can you show me a statement saying that her body dropping to absolute 0 also has a magical way to prevent an implosion from occuring?

Because if we so should immediately go slap a weakness in Rukias profile stating she can't use her bankai outside of SS!

Do whatever you want, you are free to make a CRT for it. Although idk how an implosion happening when she goes below 0 would prevent her from using her bankai outside SS.

Also are you suggesting WoTL has different principles of conservation of energy? Since Ichigos AP is clearly leagues ahead of his DC even in WOTL and we already acknowledge on the wiki that the concept of AP≠DC contradicts those principles. Because if so, we have absolutely no reason to believe WOTL has the same laws of thermodynamics as IRL world has either which completely debunks your theory here.

So you admit the wiki already accepts that laws in fiction may be different from the irl laws. Which means your argument about Soul Society being smaller based on it being flat is null. Same for the OP's arguments about atmosphere. As simple as that. At least Kubo is nice and gives a statement to explain such things.

I literally just gave you a list of evidences that tell us this.

You gave a list consisting of similarities at the level of the ground. Absolutely nothing about the same also happening so much higher than the ground.

You ignoring the evidence we present doesn't mean it stops existing.

I'm not ignoring anything, just explaining why it's not evidence for your argument at all. Whether you listen or not, that's on you.

Nothing suggests it's different in size while the behaviors we mentioned multiple times already suggest similar size.

Tell me: would a flat place with the radius of earth have the same gravity as Earth on its surface? Your argument can also be used against you fairly easy.

The only thing suggesting a different size from earth is the shape which like I explained actually implies a MUCH smaller size instead.

Only if we go by irl laws of physics which fiction doesn't follow and Soul Society explicitly has different laws.

You're using the "different laws" thing as a convenient excuse for anything you don't like but you completely fail to actually show evidence that the differences are even relevant to this specific case.

What evidence do I have to show when you already have the things OP argues against, or the flat Soul Society having the same gravity on its surface as that on Earth while its flatness also implies it must be smaller than Earth, as you say, yet the gravity being similar to Earth's implies it must be way larger? The truth is that we don't have any way to know Soul Society's size unless we are using Muken so any argument based on things related to it are invalid, whether they are for wanking or for downplaying the true value.

Which is especially bad given the preponderance of evidence we're providing that suggests otherwise.

Literally nothing suggests it's Earth sized.

Oh so when I claim something based on soul society's laws I have to prove it, but when you claim something based on soul society's laws you don't?

You already proved they are different, but I already gave you an example of the gravitational laws being different above.

So right back at you, it's up to you to prove Soul Society's laws would make the clouds hover millions of times higher than they should.

I never claimed the clouds are millions of times higher than they are on Earth, nor did I say the current value is correct, but I simply said that you have no way to argue against it based on gravity related things.

No it's not.

I already gave you the evidence you couldn't refute, so now you're just doing what you're accusing me of, saying "Nuh, uh". Holy hypocrisy.

I'm honestly getting tired of talking to you. I keep providing evidence it's similar and all you do is say "nah they're different trust me bro".

I did already prove they are different, now you're just acting hypocritical. I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt and say something is distracting you rn or something because the evidence I sent is right there

I'd appreciate if you stopped stonewalling me and either actually started providing arguments and evidence, or just stopped spamming me with empty claims.

Right back at you, lol.

Sure then suggest that. Noone is stopping you.

I said I do, for everyone who reads it, it's already suggested

But you're trying to portray the entire thread as bad because of this small niche part of it when that specific part is the only thing completely up to change.

It's not a small niche thing, it's like 5/7 arguments against the current calc.

Compared to 14 million km glaze, 50-80 kilometers is "slightly lowballed".

The true value would nonetheless be ridiculously high given how fast shunpo is.

The 50km mark is still closer to the 11,000 kilometers mark (based on supersonic travel for 9 hours) than the current 14 million km mark is.

TS Ichigo would be far above supersonic…

No, it's a suggested replacement in case no better replacement is found.

I did just suggest a better one and no, an absurdly wrong and inconsistent replacement isn't any better than the already existing one.

You're trying to portray it as something the OP actively argues for in order to bring the whole thread down.

That's not my purpose in the slightest. I don't care whether the op argues for it or not when 6/7 arguments are completely wrong, because Ichigo WAS using shunpo and dashing as fast as he could

Do you even know what a strawman is? If not that's fine but you should be forward with that so we can explain.

I should be asking you this because all I said is directly related to this thread and the validity of OP's arguments.

Because the way you used it here is completely nonsensical.

I didn't even use a strawman…

There's a huge difference between moving and moving at your top speed upstairs.

In fact, p sure they don't even run on those stairs at all, shunpo is a technique for travelling a long distance in one step.

 

[ItsMeat]

@Mommyleona @Overvoid69 @DavidTPPM @ItsMeat @Infinite9Luck

I know you guys disagree with each other, but there is no point in cluttering this thread because, in the end, me and the others CGM will decide the better approach, and this approach will be decided not by you guys arguing over and over again, but by explaining stuff to us and conceding points to one another in order for a better outcome, a middle ground that pleases both sides.

So, can you guys please stop arguing nonstop? Ya’ll are not gonna change each other‘s mind, so what’s the point?

I think there are problems with considering Ichigo was running nonstop at the speed of lightning since the original statement is hella vague and doesn’t imply that for Grimmjow, and we clearly see Ichigo breaking the sound barrier and staying at that. So the calculation has issues. On the other hand, the anime not having the clock doesn’t mean much, wasn’t Ichigo on a hurry and he said he can arrive at half a day? And I’m pretty sure he achieved that. So it’s either 9.5 or 12 hours.

Can we achieve a middle ground here? Otherwise I’d have to ask some of you to not comment here in order to keep this thread from being derailed and cluttered.

Sorry, just saw this

Anyway, I think I made an interesting point in my last comment which I will quote again:

.What evidence do I have to show when you already have the things OP argues against, or the flat Soul Society having the same gravity on its surface as that on Earth while its flatness also implies it must be smaller than Earth, as you say, yet the gravity on the surface being similar to Earth's implies it must be way larger? The truth is that we don't have any way to know Soul Society's size unless we are using Muken so any argument based on things related to it are invalid, whether they are for wanking or for downplaying the true value.

Thus, arguments related to gravity should be invalid whether they are used for an upscale or a downscale

 

[Mommyleona]

Hey did you read or watch the series you’re making a crt on?

The passage to SKP was left open when Ichigo descended. Like it’s deadass explained by Yhwach. @Mommyleona

Nope they are barriers and he specifically needs the Ouken material to be able to penetrate said dimension barriers and to be able to survive the resulting friction, nothing in that scan suggests they aren't dimensional barriers. And as for your question why is there being 72 a inherent issue? Ur resulting to headcanon assumptions now...

Last reply on this for now
The passage that is made via him quite literally physically crushing through them, which opens a hole that Yhwach can pass through by just going straight up, no portal needed, which is something that would be needed to access a separate dimension

We don't see how Yhwach crosses into the Soul King Palace's dimension in the manga, these are the 2 manga pages we get. So once again you haven't debunked anything

We see how he simply flies up in the anime and through the clouds, as you said, just put 2 and 2 together

I disagree with the 80km suggestions. If it was just a 80km distance, Ichigo would've been flying at 2.403 m/s speeds for 9 hours and 15 minutes

Using a manga timeframe that is changed in the anime, to say that Ichigo was actually X slow doesn't work, since such issue only arises if we for some reason don't just follow the anime. In the anime Ichigo could've crossed that distance in a much shorter timeframe with no issue and nothing contradicting it. Contradictory things such as a timeframe in this case from a secondary canon, can be disregarded

80km makes Ichigo slow as hell, and also very stupid. 11k or 14k kilometers also makes no sense with the comment I quoted. So I want us to focus on the things I brought up before proceeding. Can we please work together to find a middle ground and something you guys would agree?

I'll wait for any other possible valid suggestions

 

[Overvoid69]

I like how we see the sun above the Reioku

We don't know whether or not the Soul King Dimension even is a planet. We just know it goes from clouds - SKP - Sun with 0 indication of a surface. Hence u can't use metrics like earths surface to the clouds/space/sun to cap the distance in this dimension.

 

[ItsMeat]

Given sound speed Ichigo is a joke just as bad as the 14million km, I think we can assume a timeframe of a few seconds for this

Since we already have Karakura's diameter at 12km. This is neither 12 hours at lightning speed, nor sound speed EOS Ichigo, but seems like a decent middle ground imo.

Shino and Ryunosuke are these 2 fodders

So their Shunpo should be slightly slower than normal Shunpo and way slower than Ichigo's regular Shunpo but it's good for this statement nonetheless:

For the time frame, I suggest 3 seconds for highball, 5 for midball and 10 for lowball. I'd personally go with the highball here since we already use the Shunpo values from some fodders, so the overall calc is way lower than the actual value.

And yes, we'd still obtain values way higher than Earth's atmosphere, but as explained in this thread already, arguments related to gravity are pointless and Soul Society's size is unknown so we can't really limit its atmosphere…

Also, for shinigami not being able to breathe in outer space, as someone already pointed out, nothing happens to them inside Garganta which is a void and one could argue Zaraki suffered because Gremmy imagined that's what would happen and Gremmy's imagination warps reality

 

[Kachon123]

Using a manga timeframe that is changed in the anime, to say that Ichigo was actually X slow doesn't work, since such issue only arises if we for some reason don't just follow the anime. In the anime Ichigo could've crossed that distance in a much shorter timeframe with no issue and nothing contradicting it. Contradictory things such as a timeframe in this case from a secondary canon, can be disregarded

Is there a timeframe in the anime that contradicts the manga timeframe? Just because 9+ hours was explicitly shown in the manga but not in the anime, that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist anymore.

 

[MrTayman616]

Snip

We don't use calculation results for that. We can't use the Karakura's size calc to determine a speed somewhere else. Only stated speeds are used for this.

 

[Overvoid69]

Last reply on this for now
The passage that is made via him quite literally physically crushing through them, which opens a hole that Yhwach can pass through by just going straight up, no portal needed, which is something that would be needed to access a separate dimension

It seems like u think there needs to be this big visual indicator (as in a portal to the 2nd space) in the sky for when Yhwach, but why tf couldn't it just be a portal that merges seemlessly with the background (and it probably does, because around the border of both dimensions we have layers of clouds). Ur once again making headcanon assumptions here

We see how he simply flies up in the anime and through the clouds, as you said, just put 2 and 2 together

Another issue: first clip is from EP9 before the intro and the other is after the outro of EP10, so those far apart scenes don't have to be the entire distance they travel (So we have no idea when he crossed the border and the first scene is him leaving the Sereiteis Shakonmaku).

 

[Mommyleona]

snip

is this not just calc stacking

Is there a timeframe in the anime that contradicts the manga timeframe? Just because 9+ hours was explicitly shown in the manga but not in the anime, that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist anymore.

what im saying is, if the manga timeframe makes Ichigo ridiculously slow, in order to say that's a contradiction for the proposed distance, then that can be disregarded and should not be used as a rebuttal
in the anime the timeframe can be the same or not, main point is, there isn't such contradiction within the anime itself

It seems like u think there needs to be this big visual indicator (as in a portal to the 2nd space) in the sky for when Yhwach, but why tf couldn't it just be a portal that merges seemlessly with the background (and it probably does, because around the border of both dimensions we have layers of clouds). Ur once again making headcanon assumptions here

This whole reply is the headcanon assumption

Another issue: first clip is from EP9 before the intro and the other is after the outro of EP10, so those far apart scenes don't have to be the entire distance they travel.

I said put 2 and 2, all we see is them simply flying up
Idk where is this headcanon of some portal to a separate dimension somewhere existing coming from

 

[Overvoid69]

This whole reply is the headcanon assumption

No? I'm not necessarily asserting anything here, I'm pointing out the flaws in ur argument. Are we just resulting to "Nuh uh" now?

is this not just calc stacking

Yh he just calc stacked ngl

I said put 2 and 2, all we see is them simply flying up
Idk where is this headcanon of some portal to a separate dimension somewhere existing coming from

And there's a lot of things happening between the 2 scenes of them "flying up", so we still don't know what exactly happened once again missing the point
Brother you literally started mentioning a portal and u can just call it a border or the entrance same thing.....