Bleach - Kisuke Changes

[Guacamolefletcher]

If the panel you used to measure Orihime's level 4 Espada is the one where she stops Base Ulquiorra's attack:

Orihime is a character who grows stronger when she wants to protect Ichigo. Even during the final battle with Yhwach, when entering the palace room where Yhwach is, she says things like, "I'm much closer than I was before." Normally, after losing against Base Gerard, Orihime can generate shields with the Mental Amp that can react and withstand Yhwach's attacks. Being able to react to Ulquiorra's attack once doesn't make her level 4 Espada. This has nothing to do with her training with Rukia. Ukitake already noted that four months of training with Rukia and Orihime was insufficient to strengthen her.

Having an uncontradicted level 4 espada feat is absolutely level 4 espada feat.

Orihime trains in Hueco Mundo and grows to True Shikai Ichigo level. This is insanity.

You probably didn't read what I wrote above. Byakuya is equal to Tokinada in terms of reiatsu alone. It's a huge mistake to interpret reiatsu as power.

Spiritual pressure is literally explained to be power every time. Reread the Kenpachi fight.

Beyond the reiatsu aspect, Byakuya's feats against Yammy are also outliers. Final Form Yammy>Nnoitra~~CFYOW Base Grimmjow>CFYOW Tsukishima>Fullbring arc Tsukishima>Fullbring arc Byakuya>Arrancar arc Byakuya

This is really something, huh. Grimmjow is never stated to be relative to Nnoitra. Furthermore, we blatantly see Byakuya is > Vollstandig Robert Accutrone, who can fight Shikai Shunsui and even beat him.

Byakuya is first espada level just based on that, lol. He's strong.

I explained this above. It could be said that the character experiences a dura drop because they're surprised. There's no reason to be fully focused during training anyway.

Likewise, there is no reason why Ichigo's first Getsuga Tenshou should be weaker than the other Getsuga Tenshou.

He wasn't surprised, he literally saw it coming, and he would've taken damage if he didn't use his Benihime shield. This is stated.

He also states that he was exhausted fighting Isshin. He is stronger fighting Yamamoto and Ichigo than he was fighting Isshin in any way.

He was exhausted after a fight with Isshin, because of the Hogyoku. He wasn't significantly nerfed at the start.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

This is really something, huh. Grimmjow is never stated to be relative to Nnoitra

It is stated here

Having an uncontradicted level 4 espada feat is absolutely level 4 espada feat.

No one said there was a contradiction. I suggested he might have used a Mental Amp. He also used a mental amp in the fight with Yhwach.

We see Tsukishima blitz Orihime's perception speed. You said he's at the level of Base Ulquiorra. Even Tsukishima's novel version can fight Base Grimmjow and can't finish the fight by justifying the speed difference. So, he can't blitz. I left the scan above showing that he's on par with Nnoitra. It indirectly follows that Prime Tsukishima can't blitz Nnoitra either. Since you ranked the Espada by numbers, you naturally can't object to Ulquiorra > Nnoitra. Also, what I wrote refutes Byakuya's claim that he's at Yammy's level.

Base Ulquiorra>CFYOW Base Grimmjow~~Res Nnoitra~~>CFYOW Tsukishima>Fullbring arc Tsukishima>>>>>>>Fullbring arc Orihime perception speed>Arrancar arc Orihime perception speed

Orihime trains in Hueco Mundo and grows to True Shikai Ichigo level. This is insanity.

Orihime lost to Base Gerard? Do you seriously think she reached True Shikai level just by training? There were 9 days between Orihime's loss to Quilge and the 2nd Invasion. If you claim your character reached True Shikai level in 9 days without a MENTAL AMP, you need to prove it. When Ichigo activates HoS, it blitzes Orihime's perception speed. Even that disrupts your speed scaling.

Spiritual pressure is literally explained to be power every time. Reread the Kenpachi fight.

If Reiatsu = Strength, how can Ukitake be a match for Shunsui, even though he has more reiatsu than him?

Shunsui's reiatsu>>>>>Grimmjow, Nel, and Halibel have been reported to have reiatsu. However, I can prove that CFYOW Res Grimmjow also has enough AP to defeat Shunsui.

Similarly, the first three Espada are said to have similar reiatsu. But it's easily proven that Baraggan>>>>Starrk>>>>Halibel.

Halibel couldn't defeat two Vaizard Lieutenants. Starrk, on the other hand, one-shots two Vaizard Captains so hard that they fall out of Hollow Mask form. Baraggan is much stronger than CFYOW Grimmjow. CFYOW Grimmjow>>>Halibel can also be proven very easily. Even though Halibel is close to Baraggan in terms of reiatsu, Baraggan>>>>Halibel in terms of AP, dura, and speed.

Byakuya has enough reiatsu to be unaffected by NaNaNa's ability. Aizen, sitting in a chair, is affected by it. However, Byakuya cannot destroy the Eyeball monsters that the Oversealed Aizen sitting in a chair can easily destroy.

Byakuya in terms of reiatsu > Sealed Aizen sitting in a chair
Sealed Aizen sitting in a chair>>>>Byakuya

The fact that Byakuya, Yoruichi, and Tokinada are stated to have equivalent reiatsu in CFYOW also refutes the idea of reiatsu = power. How can Byakuya, a Liltotto-level character, be a match for Shunko Yoruichi, who kicked Post-Aushwalen Askin? Tokinada is fighting Shunko Yoruichi, Shikai Shunsui, and Bankai Kensei simultaneously. If Reiatsu = power, this guy can't lose even with two other captains alongside someone with equal power. How do you explain this? How can someone who can fight Shikai Shunsui, who can defeat Post-Aushwalen Lille, who doesn't use SCHRIFT, be a match for Byakuya?

Byakuya is > Vollstandig Robert Accutrone,

Robert unexpectedly attacks someone who's talking. I explained that your durability drops when you're surprised, using Nnoitra and Zaraki as examples. You didn't object. Also, Shikai Shunsui is superior to Post-Aushwalen Lille. Lille can't defeat Shunsui's Shikai form without using a spell. His spell doesn't increase his Ap or Dura anyway. By your logic, Robert > Shikai Shunsui > Post-Aushwalen Lille (without X Axes) > Pre-Aushwalen Lille>>>>Bambietta>>>Base Liltotto>Volstandig Meninas>Robert

Even the pre-Aushwalen Elites were stronger than Liltotto, Meninas, and Robert. Their resurrected versions are also stronger than their pre-death versions.

Askin was overwhelmed by the Sealed Squad Zero members. After being resurrected by Aushwalen, Askin was able to defeat Sealed Kirinji. Sealed Kirinji easily defeats Pre-Aushwalen Jugram. Even Pre-Aushwalen Jugram is capable of killing Shikai Shunsui, as stated in the profile, and I believe so. Shikai Shunsui, on the other hand, scales with Post-Aushwalen Lille. In short, we can't say that Aushwalen strengthens him any less.

Yoruichi also scales with Post-Aushwalen Askin, who can do all of these things. Byakuya, on the other hand, feels the need to open bankai against Robert, the victim of Pre-Aushwalen Lille Barro. In the SS arc, we saw that Byakuya doesn't prefer opening bankai on people too weak to force him to open bankai. This preference doesn't change in TYBW, and if you think it has, I'd like to see proof.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Neutral

 

[Specterxxxx]

Askin was overwhelmed by the Sealed Squad Zero members. After being resurrected by Aushwalen, Askin was able to defeat Sealed Kirinji.

It was made very clear that askin was inferior to kirinji in every physical aspect, that's why he even underestimated him and lost. And this was an incomplete voltstanding askin not base.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

It is stated here

this isn't even the official translation, and it's heavily heavily heavily heavily mistranslated. The real translation doesn't say anything remotely like that:

“You’re the one who killed Nnoitora, aren’t you?”
Grimmjow packed hostility into the glare he aimed at Kenpachi, whoemitted a fiendish spiritual pressure. Kenpachi heard Nnoitora’s name andraised the corner of his mouth a degree.
“Arrancars always bring up that name when they see me. What is thepoint? Are you stronger than Nnoitora?”
“Don’t compare me to some guy who’s already kicked the bucket.”
“No doubt, then.”
The air between the two started to quiver, and Kukaku, who observed it,developed a throbbing vein on her forehead just as Kyoraku clapped hishands together

Grimmjow's like, don't compare me to a guy that already died, and Kenpachi says "no doubt" to say "no doubt he's stronger than Nnoitra. The scan you posted is blatantly wrong.

 

[Crobatman44]

It was made very clear that askin was inferior to kirinji in every physical aspect, that's why he even underestimated him and lost. And this was an incomplete voltstanding askin not base.

Somewhat off topic but incomplete Vollständig is not a thing when it comes to Askin and the others in episode 25/26,all material such as the episode descriptions/the cour 2 booklet treats it as regular Vollständig with the cour 2 booklet having them named the same.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

this isn't even the official translation, and it's heavily heavily heavily heavily mistranslated. The real translation doesn't say anything remotely like that:

“You’re the one who killed Nnoitora, aren’t you?”
Grimmjow packed hostility into the glare he aimed at Kenpachi, whoemitted a fiendish spiritual pressure. Kenpachi heard Nnoitora’s name andraised the corner of his mouth a degree.
“Arrancars always bring up that name when they see me. What is thepoint? Are you stronger than Nnoitora?”
“Don’t compare me to some guy who’s already kicked the bucket.”
“No doubt, then.”
The air between the two started to quiver, and Kukaku, who observed it,developed a throbbing vein on her forehead just as Kyoraku clapped hishands together

Grimmjow's like, don't compare me to a guy that already died, and Kenpachi says "no doubt" to say "no doubt he's stronger than Nnoitra. The scan you posted is blatantly wrong.

Then can you post the official translation? The two translations I found both say what I mentioned. Of course, I'm not saying that 1,000 incorrect translations will cancel out one correct translation; I just want to see your translation as well. Also, who made the official translation of the novels and when?

The second scan I found

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Then can you post the official translation? The two translations I found both say what I mentioned. Of course, I'm not saying that 1,000 incorrect translations will cancel out one correct translation; I just want to see your translation as well. Also, who made the official translation of the novels and when?

The second scan I found

that's what I posted....

you think I went to some random fan translation? I went to my PDF of the viz and I pasted it here

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

you think I went to some random fan translation? I went to my PDF of the viz and I pasted it here

Okay, but Viz sometimes translates incorrectly. There are two examples of incorrect translations from the manga, for example. So, we need to look at the Japanese raw scan. We'll ask Apotheosis or someone else to translate it.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Okay, but Viz sometimes translates incorrectly. There are two examples of incorrect translations from the manga, for example. So, we need to look at the Japanese raw scan. We'll ask Apotheosis or someone else to translate it.

I looked at the japanese text, and the viz is better. The fan translation is shitty.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

@Apollonir.Scale

I don’t think we’ll come to a conclusion because we disagree on the scaling. I think Askin scales over Shinigami Aizen but I don’t think Grimmjow scales to him. I also think Askin scales over Gremmy too. That’s controversial, but what I think isn’t controversial is Arrancar Arc Byakuya and FB Arc Tsukishima scaling to/above Yammy and trying to use CFYOW Grimmjow to downplay them when there’s nothing in CFYOW putting Grimmjow over Tsukishima and Byakuya

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Aside from the scaling chain through Nnoitra, there's also something else that proves that Orihime's ability to react to Base Ulquiorra's speed is solely related to her mental amp:

Base Ulquiorra~~>Shikai Urahara~~>Base Wonderweiss>Shikai Ukitake~~Shikai Shunsui>CFYOW Tsukshima>Fullbring arc Tsukishima>>>>Fullbring arc Orihime perception speed>Arrancar arc Orihime perception speed

Shikai Urahara almost got blitzed by Base Wonderweiss. I wrote "~~>" because he was able to react at the last moment. We know Shunsui isn't getting any stronger either.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Aside from the scaling chain through Nnoitra, there's also something else that proves that Orihime's ability to react to Base Ulquiorra's speed is solely related to her mental amp:

Base Ulquiorra~~>Shikai Urahara~~>

Where is this base ulq being more powerful than urahara coming from? There is no proof that the attack he shrugged off from urahara even close to urahara's ful output because he was toying with yammy and his attack was directed to yammy.

Base Wonderweiss>Shikai Ukitake~~Shikai Shunsui>CFYOW Tsukshima>Fullbring arc Tsukishima>>>>Fullbring arc Orihime perception speed>Arrancar arc Orihime perception speed

Wasn't ukitake off guarded? And Shikai shunsui also blitzed wonderwiese and was aiming for the kill shot so how is base wonderwiese who was getting dragged by vizards any close to shunsui?

Shikai Urahara almost got blitzed by Base Wonderweiss. I wrote "~~>" because he was able to react at the last moment.

Yeah because he wasn't fighting wonderwiese and he was not on on guard.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Where is this base ulq being more powerful than urahara coming from? There is no proof that the attack he shrugged off from urahara even close to urahara's ful output because he was toying with yammy and his attack was directed to yammy.

Aizen sent Ulquiorra away because he believed Ulquiorra could defeat everyone in Karakura Town. Ulquiorra felt there were only three strong men. (I'm guessing Isshin was the third, Urahara and Yoruichi.)

Ulquiorra stated that Yoruichi and Urahara couldn't protect others and simultaneously fight him.

In manga chapter 198, when Ulquiorra explained to Aizen why he didn't kill them, he said, "You said to kill those who might pose a threat to us in the future." He didn't consider Urahara an enemy worth killing. Indeed, after the Grimmjow battle, when Ichigo drew his sword against Ichigo, Ichigo said something along the lines of, "Does this mean you'll use all your strength against me?" He didn't draw his sword against Urahara either. Furthermore, later in the battle, Ulquiorra remarked that it must be a good feeling to believe you can fight me. It's clear from this that he wasn't serious.

Brief summary: Ulquiorra was Holding Back, meaning he didn't use his full power against anyone, until Ichigo asked him a question that made Ulquiorra angry.

Wasn't ukitake off guarded? And Shikai shunsui also blitzed wonderwiese and was aiming for the kill shot so how is base wonderwiese who was getting dragged by vizards any close to shunsui?

Ukitake wasn't off guard. His Shikai was unstable and he had already seen Wonderweiss.

No, Vaizards don't scale with Base Wonderweiss in terms of power. Wonderweiss's berserk form and calm form are different. His calm form, which has no interest in fighting, takes a beating from Mashiro and Kensei. His berserk form can defeat both of them. His Ressurection form already scales with Yamamoto. So it would be absurd for his base form to be Vaizard level.

Yeah because he wasn't fighting wonderwiese and he was not on on guard.

Even though he wasn't fighting Wonderweiss, he was still quick enough to react to her at the last moment.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Aizen sent Ulquiorra away because he believed Ulquiorra could defeat everyone in Karakura Town. Ulquiorra felt there were only three strong men. (I'm guessing Isshin was the third, Urahara and Yoruichi.)

This argument shoots your argument in the foot if you believe the same Ulquiorra could beat isshin. And aizen believing something via the hypotheses of prior experimentation doesn't make it factual.

Ulquiorra stated that Yoruichi and Urahara couldn't protect others and simultaneously fight him.

Could be from the results of his DC attacks not that they are inferior.

In manga chapter 198, when Ulquiorra explained to Aizen why he didn't kill them, he said, "You said to kill those who might pose a threat to us in the future." He didn't consider Urahara an enemy worth killing. Indeed, after the Grimmjow battle, when Ichigo drew his sword against Ichigo, Ichigo said something along the lines of, "Does this mean you'll use all your strength against me?" He didn't draw his sword against Urahara either. Furthermore, later in the battle, Ulquiorra remarked that it must be a good feeling to believe you can fight me. It's clear from this that he wasn't serious.

It is possible that ulq couldn't sense their SP accurately like ichigo's because ichigo couldn't control his, this is possible because zommari believed byakuya wasn't stronger than him yet its clear byakuya was. Ulq not taking them serious can be also as a result of he not properly gauging their power level. There is also the possibility the kubo was trying to hype the arrancars in the beginning of the arc and retcon their power scale later on.

Brief summary: Ulquiorra was Holding Back, meaning he didn't use his full power against anyone, until Ichigo asked him a question that made Ulquiorra angry.

This doesn't really matter because so was urahara til he fought aizen.

Ukitake wasn't off guard. His Shikai was unstable and he had already seen Wonderweiss.

Fair, but ukitake is mostly a glass Canon and is tricky scale because he is not always stable due to his disease and besides we see shunsui going for a kill shot before he is shot by starrk so how can you say ww is stronger than shunsui?

No, Vaizards don't scale with Base Wonderweiss in terms of power. Wonderweiss's berserk form and calm form are different.

Based off what?

His calm form, which has no interest in fighting, takes a beating from Mashiro and Kensei. His berserk form can defeat both of them.

This is purely speculative with no basis for conclusion.

His Ressurection form already scales with Yamamoto. So it would be absurd for his base form to be Vaizard level.

His Ressurecion is his true hollow form it isn't an amp like bankai is, so his nerfed form being much weaker isn't absurd in the slightest.

Even though he wasn't fighting Wonderweiss, he was still quick enough to react to her at the last moment.

That shows proof of Urahara’s superiority and shouldn't be used as a exhibit to show Urahara is weaker than base ww

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

This argument shoots your argument in the foot if you believe the same Ulquiorra could beat isshin. And aizen believing something via the hypotheses of prior experimentation doesn't make it factual.

Why can't Ulquiorra>Isshin?

It is possible that ulq couldn't sense their SP accurately like ichigo's because ichigo couldn't control his, this is possible because zommari believed byakuya wasn't stronger than him yet its clear byakuya was. Ulq not taking them serious can be also as a result of he not properly gauging their power level. There is also the possibility the kubo was trying to hype the arrancars in the beginning of the arc and retcon their power scale later on.

Ulquiorra couldn't have misjudged their power levels. He already has Pesquisa, and he insults Yammy's intelligence by calling him "idiot" for trying to gauge their power levels without Pesquisa.

Zommari is someone who tries to manifest by force. He believes that by claiming to be superior to Byakuya, he will be superior to him. He also has a god complex. Ulquiorra and Zommari's statements are incomparable.

Fair, but ukitake is mostly a glass Canon and is tricky scale because he is not always stable due to his disease and besides we see shunsui going for a kill shot before he is shot by starrk so how can you say ww is stronger than shunsui?

Unless it's proven that Ukitake's illness was affecting him at the time, this is irrelevant. If he'd just shed blood for no reason, then we could say he was speed blitzed because of his illness.

I didn't understand your example about Shunsui.

Based off what?

You can tell from Wonderweiss's demeanor. His calm self, uninterested in fighting, was watching dragonflies in front of Rangiku. His berserk self can attack the likes of Urahara and Ukitake and defeat Bankai Kensei. If his calm self is already losing to Kensei, while his berserk self can defeat Bankai Kensei, then it makes a difference whether he's berserk or calm. There was comedy music playing during the scenes where he got kicked by Mashiro. It's not something to be taken seriously.

That shows proof of Urahara’s superiority and shouldn't be used as a exhibit to show Urahara is weaker than base ww

But he can only react at the last moment. Ukitake had never been able to react.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Why can't Ulquiorra>Isshin?

Because isshin damaged 4th fusion aizen's shell??

Ulquiorra couldn't have misjudged their power levels. He already has Pesquisa, and he insults Yammy's intelligence by calling him "idiot" for trying to gauge their power levels without Pesquisa.

His pesquisa judges their reaistu levels, Urahara casual reaitsu doesn't show his full power.

Zommari is someone who tries to manifest by force. He believes that by claiming to be superior to Byakuya, he will be superior to him. He also has a god complex. Ulquiorra and Zommari's statements are incomparable.

How does zommari the 8 weakest espada have a god complex again? There is no instance of this. They are comparable as their ability to sense power level should not always be treated as factual where there is contradictory evidence.

Unless it's proven that Ukitake's illness was affecting him at the time, this is irrelevant. If he'd just shed blood for no reason, then we could say he was speed blitzed because of his illness.

What is also irrelevant is putting in the same league as shunsui when we shunsui almost killing him.

I didn't understand your example about Shunsui.

This isn't an example, shunsui speed blitzed ww in an attempt to kill him and starkk stopped him from doing it.

You can tell from Wonderweiss's demeanor. His calm self, uninterested in fighting, was watching dragonflies in front of Rangiku.

uninterested in fight doesn't equal a sudden drop in power levels they were hurting him.

His berserk self can attack the likes of Urahara and Ukitake and defeat Bankai Kensei.

And were does he defeat bankai kensei with his berserk self?

If his calm self is already losing to Kensei, while his berserk self can defeat Bankai Kensei, then it makes a difference whether he's berserk or calm.

We don't see this btw so this isn't factual.

There was comedy music playing during the scenes where he got kicked by Mashiro. It's not something to be taken seriously.

You mean the anime? Mashiro is a comedic character doesn't make the scene a gag scene. It would definitely be taken seriously lol what are you saying.

But he can only react at the last moment. Ukitake had never been able to react.

Doesn't matter, because he was off guard. The same way aizen was off guard and ichigo still attacked him while slower.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

His pesquisa judges their reaistu levels, Urahara casual reaitsu doesn't show his full power.

Why is Urahara's reiatsu ordinary? He's unleashed Benihime there.

This isn't an example, shunsui speed blitzed ww in an attempt to kill him and starkk stopped him from doing it.

Just because he didn't do it doesn't mean he couldn't. The character didn't take any action after stabbing Ukitake. Wonderweiss has the mind of a child. So, it's very possible that after stabbing Ukitake, he didn't realize Shunsui would stab him in the back.

uninterested in fight doesn't equal a sudden drop in power levels they were hurting him.

His lack of interest in combat clearly undermines him. The concept of off-guard is that a character is unprepared for combat. Tosen taking damage from Hisagi and Urahara taking damage from Hiyori are the characters' non-combat states. In combat, Tosen takes no damage from Hisagi, and Urahara takes no damage from Hiyori. If he hadn't been surprised, Zaraki wouldn't have taken damage from Base Nnoitra. In fact, Base Nnoitra's Cero couldn't damage the same Zaraki form.

And were does he defeat bankai kensei with his berserk self?

We don't see this btw so this isn't factual.

So I ask you: How did Wonderweiss defeat Kensei in the off-screen fight? We know he couldn't have defeated him in his calm state. So, he defeated Ukitake in his frenzied state.

While I don't always agree with this wiki, they do scale based on off-screen fights. For example, NaNaNa and Matsumoto (I disagree with both).

Doesn't matter, because he was off guard. The same way aizen was off guard and ichigo still attacked him while slower.

Okay, while the unprepared Urahara can react, Ukitake can't.


I found a few databook statements.

Base Ulquiorra>Shikai Urahara support.

Because isshin damaged 4th fusion aizen's shell??

About the shell incident you mentioned

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

bump

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

bump

let this thread die, your arguments would require verse-wide revisions and are completely rejected

 

[DragoZeroNova]

let this thread die, your arguments would require verse-wide revisions and are completely rejected

I mean, this thread does already have two staff votes. I don't think that's enough to pass, but if another staff votes yes, then it probably will.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

let this thread die, your arguments would require verse-wide revisions and are completely rejected

Don't worry, I'll edit the verse on other CRTs. Just like you said, it will open other CRTs as well. But I'll make a CRT titled "Why shouldn't Espada be sorted by number?" Since the order of all mid-tier characters will be changed there anyway, the changes accepted here will also be applied.

Any topic can be discussed on CRTs, as long as there's no restriction on the topic. If you're certain that other CRTs will be rejected, you can also avoid discussing CRTs.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Why is Urahara's reiatsu ordinary? He's unleashed Benihime there.

I said casual not ordinary that was a basic shikai attack, he didn't use those attacks against aizen.

Just because he didn't do it doesn't mean he couldn't. The character didn't take any action after stabbing Ukitake. Wonderweiss has the mind of a child. So, it's very possible that after stabbing Ukitake, he didn't realize Shunsui would stab him in the back.

Except he noticed but it was too late.

His lack of interest in combat clearly undermines him. The concept of off-guard is that a character is unprepared for combat.

No it doesn't as this is a speculative conclusion.

Tosen taking damage from Hisagi and Urahara taking damage from Hiyori are the characters' non-combat states

Hisagi killing tosen is a blatant scale, and urahara has never taken damage from hiyori.

. In combat, Tosen takes no damage from Hisagi,

He literally gets killed by Hisagi.

and Urahara takes no damage from Hiyori.

Even without it.

If he hadn't been surprised, Zaraki wouldn't have taken damage from Base Nnoitra. In fact, Base Nnoitra's Cero couldn't damage the same Zaraki form.

So I ask you: How did Wonderweiss defeat Kensei in the off-screen fight? We know he couldn't have defeated him in his calm state. So, he defeated Ukitake in his frenzied state.

How do you know he didn't use res against him before coming to yama? Using an offscreen fight as a premise is invalid.

While I don't always agree with this wiki, they do scale based on off-screen fights. For example, NaNaNa and Matsumoto (I disagree with both).

Okay, while the unprepared Urahara can react, Ukitake can't.

Again so?

I found a few databook statements.

Base Ulquiorra>Shikai Urahara support.

It doesn't say he is weaker, it says what the Manga says already that they would be at an advantage while protecting the others not inferiority. Also retcons happens or pis can clearly occur while new threats are introduced.

About the shell incident you mentioned

Everyone knows the shell is more durable than base Aizen who is also 4A so damaging the shell still scales.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Even if there are possible Contradictions to this at the end of the day, recent showings retcons those moments since the fake karakura town arc kisuke being relative to Aizen has been more pronounced. Even Aura is stated to be aizen level by kisuke himself and he manages to seriously harm her.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

He literally gets killed by Hisagi.

The fact that he was killed doesn't change the fact that he was an off guard. You realize that he can kill Hollowfication Tosen, a character clearly weaker than Base Tosen? If he had this level of power, why was he crushed by Tosen before? Why did he have a hard time against Findorr before?

No it doesn't as this is a speculative conclusion.

How can you even call that speculation? Someone who isn't interested in fighting wouldn't focus on their sword. Isshin has stated that not focusing on their sword lowers their strength. There are many other things like this that indicate a decline in their focus.

Also retcons happens or pis can clearly occur while new threats are introduced.

According to this logic, you should not include the first sections in power scaling at all, that's ridiculous

Everyone knows the shell is more durable than base Aizen who is also 4A so damaging the shell still scales.

Why is the shell more durable than Aizen's? By that logic, since Shunsui can only crack Aizen's barrier with a small amount, you should also scale Shunsui closer to Aizen. But we know he's not close to Aizen.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I mean, this thread does already have two staff votes. I don't think that's enough to pass, but if another staff votes yes, then it probably will.

It has one staff against too (me)

 

[DragoZeroNova]

It has one staff against too (me)

That's true, I just didn't notice since it's not in the OP lol.

 

[Damage3245]

There's been a ton of discussion since I left my vote; I'm changing my stance to neutral.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

But I'll make a CRT titled "Why shouldn't Espada be sorted by number?" Since the order of all mid-tier characters will be changed there anyway

The most unanimous position in the entire series, basically...

I literally have like 40 statements proving this is the case. It is one of the few just objective things about the series. You gotta be trolling.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

The most unanimous position in the entire series, basically...

I literally have like 40 statements proving this is the case. It is one of the few just objective things about the series. You gotta be trolling.

I read your Espada page on CSAP. Most of it is misinterpretation. I'll address it when I open CRT. Also, just because the majority agrees with an opinion doesn't make it undeniable.

 

[Specterxxxx]

The fact that he was killed doesn't change the fact that he was an off guard.

He was overpowering sajin in that moment why would his hierro defense be off guard?

You realize that he can kill Hollowfication Tosen, a character clearly weaker than Base Tosen? If he had this level of power,

When was it stated or shown that hisagi was inferior to the point of not being able to damage him? Tosen is more skilled yes with better fighting capacity but reaitsu and power wise they were relative.

why was he crushed by Tosen before? Why did he have a hard time against Findorr before?

He had a hard time against findorr because he was holding back soi fon proves this. Tosen is the better fighter but his power level isn't far beyond hisagi.

How can you even call that speculation? Someone who isn't interested in fighting wouldn't focus on their sword.

You realize hollows and soul reapers are different right? Hollows have hierro ie. a passive defense system. Also again this wouldn't be proof that his hierro became weaker in base.

Why is the shell more durable than Aizen's? By that logic, since Shunsui can only crack Aizen's barrier with a small amount, you should also scale Shunsui closer to Aizen. But we know he's not close to Aizen.

Shunsui doesn't scale to Aizen sorely because he isn't consistently portrayed to be on his level. So that alone isn't enough to get him relative scaling when other things debunk it. Aizen's barrier would logically have to be as tough as his own body because there would be no point in using it.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Even if there are possible Contradictions to this at the end of the day, recent showings retcons those moments since the fake karakura town arc kisuke being relative to Aizen has been more pronounced. Even Aura is stated to be aizen level by kisuke himself and he manages to seriously harm her.

.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

When was it stated or shown that hisagi was inferior to the point of not being able to damage him? Tosen is more skilled yes with better fighting capacity but reaitsu and power wise they were relative.

It's been stated many times throughout the series that the Captain level is far superior to the Lieutenant level.

Most Lieutenants are relatively strong.

Kira can fight Rangiku, and so can Hinamori.

Hinamori and Rangiku fight the Tres Bestias. Both sides can damage each other.

In CFYOW, it's stated that Rudbornn is still weaker than the Espada and the Tres Bestias. This means Base Yammy > Rudbornn.

Rudborn can fight Rukia. He can defeat Zombie Bambietta.

Shikai Ikkaku and Shikai Yumicihka can penetrate Zombie Bambietta.

I hope you don't say Shikai Ikkaku is close to the Captains. He obviously had to use Bankai against Edrard and lost against Choe. Komamura, on the other hand, defeats Choe Paww. Tosen, on the other hand, gains two power-ups by becoming two hollows and dominates Komamura and Hisagi.

We've already seen that Yumichika can fight Hisagi.

Even when Ichigo fought Zaraki, it was implied that Ichigo was lieutenant level.

Ichigo wasn't captain level when he defeated Ikkaku. When he appeared to save Rukia, it was stated that he was captain level.

Even Tosen could inflict damage on Shinji and draw blood because of him. Imagine what would have happened if Komamura hadn't come and saved Shinji. Shinji can also fight Gin relatively well. Gin and Tosen were considered stronger fighters than Halibel by Aizen. Halibel dominates Toshiro. A few months ago, it was decided that Toshiro shouldn't be able to scale Halibel in RAW AP, and this suggestion was accepted in the CRT. Toshiro is stronger than his lieutenant, Rangiku. He's also stronger than Rukia, as he's stated to possess the strongest ice-type zanpaktou.

Final Form Tosen > Hollow Mask Tosen > Base Tosen > Shinji~~Gin > Halibel >>> FKT Bankai Toshiro > Shikai Toshiro > Rangiku, Hinamori, Ikkaku, Yumichika, Kira, Hisagi

I hope you're aware of the AP difference. Hollow Mask is already a bankai level increase. In the Bleach series, 5-fold power increases make a big difference. According to the scaling chain I wrote, there's at least a 25-fold difference between Tosen and Hisagi. If you factor in Halibel being High 6-A and Toshiro being 6-B, the difference becomes 1000.

He was overpowering sajin in that moment why would his hierro defense be off guard?

We're talking about Tosen, who despises the Shinigami. Furthermore, the databook states that Tosen isn't particularly skilled in combat. His mistake of letting his guard down could be attributed to his arrogance. In fact, the character was transformed into a fly. The fly is the animal that represents arrogance.

Also, Tosen isn't an arrancar or a hollow. Tosen could be considered a vaizard. Vaizards DO NOT have hierro.

Normally, I wouldn't even need to write this, but I will. When characters are off guard or holding back, both their dura and hierro are reduced. Base Ulq has at least 10x stronger cero than Base Grimmjow. But when they clash cero in Holding Back, Base Ulq and Base Grimmjow, Ulq's hand is blown. Normally, Ulq can stun Hollow Mask Ichigo with his base cero. Base Grimmjow, on the other hand, can't even scratch Hollow Mask Ichigo despite using GRC. So, being holding back or off guard can also reduce hierro. Of course, Tosen doesn't have hierro; that's a separate topic.

He had a hard time against findorr because he was holding back soi fon proves this. Tosen is the better fighter but his power level isn't far beyond hisagi.

I don't understand the relevance of Soi Fon to the topic. Can you explain it a little more?

 

[Specterxxxx]

It's been stated many times throughout the series that the Captain level is far superior to the Lieutenant level.

Hisagi IS captain level, he basically no diffs a captain level arrancar with shikai, few luitenants like renji and hisagi were captain level a long time ago.

Most Lieutenants are relatively strong.

Kira can fight Rangiku, and so can Hinamori.

Hinamori and Rangiku fight the Tres Bestias. Both sides can damage each other.

It's clear as day the tres bestias were way superior.

In CFYOW, it's stated that Rudbornn is still weaker than the Espada and the Tres Bestias. This means Base Yammy > Rudbornn.

Rudborn can fight Rukia. He can defeat Zombie Bambietta.

Shikai Ikkaku and Shikai Yumicihka can penetrate Zombie Bambietta.

I hope you don't say Shikai Ikkaku is close to the Captains.

I dont believe he is not that I care about it anyway.

He obviously had to use Bankai against Edrard and lost against Choe. Komamura, on the other hand, defeats Choe Paww. Tosen, on the other hand, gains two power-ups by becoming two hollows and dominates Komamura and Hisagi.

True.

We've already seen that Yumichika can fight Hisagi.

This doesn't matter, yumichika beat hisagi by absorbing his spiritual pressure they are not relative at all. Hell ikakku isn't on hisagi's level and he is much stronger than yumichika.

Even when Ichigo fought Zaraki, it was implied that Ichigo was lieutenant level.

At the start of the fight yes. This doesn't matter tho. Most of the scaling chain doesn't matter.

Ichigo wasn't captain level when he defeated Ikkaku. When he appeared to save Rukia, it was stated that he was captain level.

Ikkaku isn't on hisagi's level.

Even Tosen could inflict damage on Shinji and draw blood because of him.

I don't recall this, a scan please.

Imagine what would have happened if Komamura hadn't come and saved Shinji. Shinji can also fight Gin relatively well. Gin and Tosen were considered stronger fighters than Halibel by Aizen. Halibel dominates Toshiro.

Okay?

A few months ago, it was decided that Toshiro shouldn't be able to scale Halibel in RAW AP, and this suggestion was accepted in the CRT. Toshiro is stronger than his lieutenant, Rangiku. He's also stronger than Rukia, as he's stated to possess the strongest ice-type zanpaktou.

This is all true but legit this entire essay is pointless and does not make hisagi not captain level.

Final Form Tosen > Hollow Mask Tosen > Base Tosen > Shinji~~Gin > Halibel >>> FKT Bankai Toshiro > Shikai Toshiro > Rangiku, Hinamori, Ikkaku, Yumichika, Kira, Hisagi

This is completely false, you think tosen is stronger than gin??? You are also scaling a lot of luitenants to another because they are luitenants lol. Hisagi is stronger than everyone one of those luitenants you called. The scaling isn't even linear to begin with that's why your scaling doesn't work and is already shown by the source material that hisagi is easily captain level by FKT.

I hope you're aware of the AP difference. Hollow Mask is already a bankai level increase. In the Bleach series, 5-fold power increases make a big difference. According to the scaling chain I wrote, there's at least a 25-fold difference between Tosen and Hisagi.

Your scaling chain doesn't make sense so I am not even going to address this.

f you factor in Halibel being High 6-A and Toshiro being 6-B, the difference becomes 1000.

We're talking about Tosen, who despises the Shinigami. Furthermore, the databook states that Tosen isn't particularly skilled in combat. His mistake of letting his guard down could be attributed to his arrogance. In fact, the character was transformed into a fly. The fly is the animal that represents arrogance.

Also, Tosen isn't an arrancar or a hollow. Tosen could be considered a vaizard. Vaizards DO NOT have hierro.

Tosen isn't a vizard, he legit transforms into a beast like creature like ressurecion plus aizen considers the vizards to be complete failures he would definitely use the hygoku to make tosen more like the arrancars especially when he wants tosen to be formidable.

Normally, I wouldn't even need to write this, but I will. When characters are off guard or holding back, both their dura and hierro are reduced. Base Ulq has at least 10x stronger cero than Base Grimmjow.

Based off what exactly? And you gonna use a long ass scaling chain to prove this when the author isn't taking all these into considerations lol.

But when they clash cero in Holding Back, Base Ulq and Base Grimmjow, Ulq's hand is blown.

Because ulq is casual and doesn't want to hurt grimjoww while grimjoww isn't really holding back.

Normally, Ulq can stun Hollow Mask Ichigo with his base cero.

Scan? Iirc he used it on Bankai ichigo and then ichigo uses his hollow mask mid explosion.

Base Grimmjow, on the other hand, can't even scratch Hollow Mask Ichigo despite using GRC.

You seem to forget ichigo was getting stronger in this arc right? He later forces base ulq to use ressurecion and was fighting base ulq on an equal footing who easily defeated him easily prior.

So, being holding back or off guard can also reduce hierro. Of course, Tosen doesn't have hierro; that's a separate topic.

Nope it doesn't, your arguements didn't prove this.

I don't understand the relevance of Soi Fon to the topic. Can you explain it a little more?

She isn't relevant to the topic, no need to worry about it I just explained it at the top of this reply.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I read your Espada page on CSAP. Most of it is misinterpretation. I'll address it when I open CRT. Also, just because the majority agrees with an opinion doesn't make it undeniable.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Also disregard all this long pointless replies on other characters and let's stick to urahara. So the only reason we have against urahara is, his presumed inferiority to base ulq. Even if this happened. This would be deemed outlier and PIS understandably so because this is at the early stages of the arc where the Espadas are supposed to be perceived as a serious threat for ichigo and the rest. So these things can happen. However, this is severely contradicted by multiple FEATS and STATEMENTS later on that far outweigh the anti scaling by sheer consistency. If you want me to bring each and every one of them I will but I believe you know this already.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Also disregard all this long pointless replies on other characters and let's stick to urahara. So the only reason we have against urahara is, his presumed inferiority to base ulq. Even if this happened. This would be deemed outlier and PIS understandably so because this is at the early stages of the arc where the Espadas are supposed to be perceived as a serious threat for ichigo and the rest. So these things can happen. However, this is severely contradicted by multiple FEATS and STATEMENTS later on that far outweigh the anti scaling by sheer consistency. If you want me to bring each and every one of them I will but I believe you know this already.

By this logic, the first episodes of the series shouldn't have been power-scaled at all. Just because Urahara's shikai is weaker than Base Ulquiorra doesn't mean his kido can't hit Pre Hogyoku Aizen. Therefore, this wouldn't be an outlier or PIS. If there were an outlier or PIS, it would be Urahara being Aizen-level.

How logical is it to first show us Base Ulquiorra > Shikai Urahara, and then have the same aptitude as Aizen with his shikai, despite the character not receiving any power-ups or training?

How logical is it that Ukitake considers four months insufficient to strengthen him, and that only one month elapsed between the Base Ulquiorra vs. Urahara encounter and Aizen vs. Urahara, yet still brings him from Below Base Ulquiorra to Pre Hogyoku Aizen level?

Ichigo's potential for strength is stated to be greater than Urahara's by both Yoruichi, someone familiar with Urahara, and Ulquiorra, who uses Pesquisa. Despite this, Ichigo trains more than Urahara, acquires power-ups like Hollowfication, and only manages to damage Aizen in FKT. How can they be in the same league?

Also, Aizen stated that he considers himself unbeatable in SS. Are you now saying Kisuke>Yamamoto?

That would be a contradiction of Aizen's character. Mugetsu said Aizen was alone because he was stronger than everyone else. The Databook also confirms that he has been superior to everyone since childhood.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Looks reasonable

have you seen the discussion we've had so far? I summarized some of the arguments here:

Sum of evidence for Kisuke​

• He deals more damage to Aizen's shell using Kido than Isshin's physicals, and is generally portrayed as equal to Isshin
• Isshin is stated to be equal to Aizen... by Aizen
• He is stated to have "equal power" to Aizen, before Aizen got stronger (consistent with the Isshin statement)
• Aura is stated to have power equal to Aizen's kido and hakuda (so she is just straight-up Aizen level
• Kisuke can react to and combat Aura, surpassing her with his strongest kido
• An elite sternritter calls his power monstrous, considering him too strong to use his regular abilities on him.

Sum of evidence against Kisuke​

• He was weaker before he is stated to train
• Someone makes a knowledge claim that people can't get stronger, which is contradicted by objective scaling evidence and direct statements about people getting stronger. Even if we steelman Kisuke isn't that strong, he would still be insanely powerful by the end, and he would have an insane amp, being at least comparable to Yammy.
• Clear disbelief.

If we are looking at this objectively, the evidence for Kisuke is nearly insurmountable. You have to rely on weak disbelief to argue this position.

 

[Specterxxxx]

By this logic, the first episodes of the series shouldn't have been power-scaled at all. Just because Urahara's shikai is weaker than Base Ulquiorra doesn't mean his kido can't hit Pre Hogyoku Aizen. Therefore, this wouldn't be an outlier or PIS. If there were an outlier or PIS, it would be Urahara being Aizen-level.

No by this logic, it means the first episodes can be retconed by consistent contradictory scaling in later episodes. You are focusing on aizen when you should also be focusing on aura who is legit stated to be on aizen level and kisuke is blatantly stated to be as powerful as her.

How logical is it to first show us Base Ulquiorra > Shikai Urahara, and then have the same aptitude as Aizen with his shikai, despite the character not receiving any power-ups or training?

Because the later scaling is more concrete and more consistent? "base Ulquiorra> Urahara" is serverely outweighed by Urahara fighting Aizen and Aizen level characters while having supporting statements that show his relativity to their level.

How logical is it that Ukitake considers four months insufficient to strengthen him, and that only one month elapsed between the Base Ulquiorra vs. Urahara encounter and Aizen vs. Urahara, yet still brings him from Below Base Ulquiorra to Pre Hogyoku Aizen level?

It is logical because it is retconed by later events even after the arranacar saga.

Ichigo's potential for strength is stated to be greater than Urahara's by both Yoruichi, someone familiar with Urahara, and Ulquiorra, who uses Pesquisa. Despite this, Ichigo trains more than Urahara, acquires power-ups like Hollowfication, and only manages to damage Aizen in FKT. How can they be in the same league?

They are not in the same league because recent scaling shows that urahara was always more powerful than ichigo, and ichigo later surpasses him after the dangai training.

Also, Aizen stated that he considers himself unbeatable in SS. Are you now saying Kisuke>Yamamoto?

You clearly don't understand my logic, more recent, consistent showings and evidences will always retcon previous premises with weaker evidences. This both evident in Aizen 'allegedly' being more powerful than Yamamoto in SS arc and Ulquiorra 'allegedly' being more powerful than urahara at the early stages of the arranacar saga.

That would be a contradiction of Aizen's character. Mugetsu said Aizen was alone because he was stronger than everyone else. The Databook also confirms that he has been superior to everyone since childhood.

Than his peers yes, he wasnt just superior in strength, he was superior in talent and in IQ. Aizen has more talent and IQ than yama but yama is more powerful but aizen wouldn't see him as an equal because he doesn't think or is gifted like him but urahara is the only one who is.

 

[Specterxxxx]

have you seen the discussion we've had so far? I summarized some of the arguments here:

Kisuke is also blatantly stated to as powerful as Aura