Casting a Celestial Nail upon this verse (1 mod needed)

[Puppet43]

I'm tired of seeing characters clearly listed as weaker than an archon in the same tier as them, so let's put an end to this.
To begin with this, we must first find the basis for why these characters are in the same tier as the archons. And we find that reason in Shouki no Kami. In his Attack Potency section, it's mentioned that he's equal in power to the gods, which isn't wrong. The problem arises when it's interpreted that the gods he's referring to are the Archons.
.
I tried searching for the statements in the original language (Chinese) and found these:

派蒙:这种威压的感觉,确实是神明级的……
-
此刻的他也已经是货真价实的「神明」了
-
纳西妲:不过,从精神的角度上,我不认为他达到了神明的高度。
-
汇聚须弥教令院六大学院力量制造出的人造正机神,拥有比肩真神的威能。

With all that said i couldn't find 魔神 which means Archon. I could find 神 which means deity in a vague way. So I genuinely couldn't find any logic in why they decided to put Archon lvl on it. So I propose that the following characters be downgraded to deity level (6-C, upscaling massively either Boreas or Orobashi) the following characters:

• Shouki no Kami: For obvious reasons
• Wanderer: He could fight against Shouki no Kami
• Dendro Traveler: Do he was significatly weaker than Shouki, he should still be in that same tier
• Warden of Prime Oasis: It fought against Nahida and Traveler
• Nahida: Even do she was weaker than Dendro Traveler, its kinda implied she also took part in Oasis bug fight and shouldn't be weaker than other Non Archon Deitys such as Andrius
• Hydro Traveler: Should be much stronger than his previous Dendro counterpart
• Arlecchino Base: She was able to overpower Hydro Traveler
• Iniquitous Baptist: One of its members was able to fight against Hydro Traveler

Now, for a special case, the same problem arises with the statement that the Top 3 Harbingers are Archon level, but if we look at the original language, we'll see that it again refers to deities in general. And in this case, the speaker, Nahida, mentions that she wouldn't have been able to do anything. Which would still be consistent: Il Dottore simply upscales Arle, who upscales Hydro Traveler, who upscales his Dendro version.

纳西妲: 你猜得没错……第三席及之上的愚人众执行官都有着堪比神明的实力,那种情况下我并不是他的对手。

• Il Dottore: Should be stronger than Nahida and Arlecchino by simply being the 2nd of the Harbingers; implied to be superior to Shouki no Kami
• Columbina Harbinger: Should be stronger than Arlecchino as the 3rd Harbinger

This 2 would recieve

6-C, Possibly 6-B

Agree: Insert_creative_name_here_12, AsterReal, @TWILIGHT-OP, @Random-Helper323
Disagree: @TWILIGHT-OP, @Random-Helper323 (Nahida scaling to this)
Neutral: LoudestProcedure, Natsuki012

Quick Edit: For any moderator checking this threath, please i advise you to ignore the debate with the user Frosty, as he has been off-topic for several days even though he has been warned to stay within the topic of the original post.

 

[Mbpoops]

Interesting

 

[Frostyyyy12]

With all that said i couldn't find 魔神 which means Archon. I could find 神 which means deity in a vague way. So I genuinely couldn't find any logic in why they decided to put Archon lvl on it.

魔神 does not mean Archon. It means Demon God. 魔神 is a specific term that HoYo uses, derived from the Lesser Key of Solomon in the Ars Goetia:

The Lesser Key of Solomon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is no consistent word to refer to the Archons, they either say the Seven or just “God”. HoYo has used many words to refer to Archons. 魔神 is vague and can refer to the likes of Harvia, Guizhong, and Decarabian, to Istaroth, Ronova, Asmoday and Naberius.

In fact, Wings of Wrathful, Merciful waters imply that to become a 魔神, you must gain a shard of the Primordial One.
风的魔神 "Demon God of Gales"

尘王魔神 “Dust lord demon god”

And for Istaroth:
时间的魔神
Móshén is used here, it literally means: “Demon god of Time”
Source:

What actually implies that SnK is comparable to the Archons is another description, which says that the power of a God was vested within him, i.e, the gnosis, which implies that he’s archon level, because well, the power of an Archon was vested within the SnK. Moreover, Nahida directly compares SnK with Rukkhadevata when she only denies SnK being all-knowing when asked if he was all-powerful and all-knowing like Rukh, but Nahida says no and simply says he lacked the forbidden knowledge. Even Nahida is vastly weaker than the SnK.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

What actually implies that SnK is comparable to the Archons is another description, which says that the power of a God was vested within him, i.e, the gnosis, which implies that he’s archon level, because well, the power of an Archon was vested within the SnK. Moreover, Nahida directly compares SnK with Rukkhadevata when she only denies SnK being all-knowing when asked if he was all-powerful and all-knowing like Rukh, but Nahida says no and simply says he lacked the forbidden knowledge. Even Nahida is vastly weaker than the SnK.

Is possession of the Gnosis all it is? Ei and Zhongli are way stronger than Scaramouch at a base level so if you add a Gnosis to them he would still be weaker no?

We can also surmise the archons aren’t equal even with Gnosis as Egeria and Makoto died to the cataclysm monsters while Mavuika handled them just fine.

Nahida is also a great example of this as even though she weilded two Gnoses she said she couldn’t do anything to Dottore who is at best comparable to archons so there is a gap that exists

 

[Puppet43]

魔神 is vague and can refer to the likes of Harvia, Guizhong, and Decarabian, to Istaroth, Ronova, Asmoday and Naberius.

This is kinda wrong since 魔神 its used to described (most of the time) Pre Archon War Gods in Teyvat. But its a term that its more consistent to describe an Archon's power since its even used to describe Skof being an Archon lvl threath

And for Istaroth:
时间的魔神
Móshén is used here, it literally means: “Demon god of Time”

Oh, i never seen this scan

What actually implies that SnK is comparable to the Archons is another description, which says that the power of a God was vested within him, i.e, the gnosis, which implies that he’s archon level, because well, the power of an Archon was vested within the SnK. Moreover, Nahida directly compares SnK with Rukkhadevata when she only denies SnK being all-knowing when asked if he was all-powerful and all-knowing like Rukh, but Nahida says no and simply says he lacked the forbidden knowledge.

Well this arguments can also be taken down
- Gnosis: Even do i won't dennied a gnosis is a great source of power, the electro gnosis was never utilized by Ei, just by Makoto. So at best we could say a thing i already said in the OP

shouldn't be weaker than other Non Archon Deitys such as Andrius

- Rukkha: Well, she is featless and just upscales Nahida and Equals SnK
That being said we don't have enough evidence to still put SnK at Archon lvl. At best he upscales non Archon deitys and featless Archons such as Rukkha and Makoto which is nowhere close Zhongli, Ei, Mavuika or Venti

 

[LoudestProcedure]

Will be watching

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Is possession of the Gnosis all it is?

Gnosis is implied to be a significant boost for all the archons, so yes.

Ei and Zhongli are way stronger than Scaramouch at a base level so if you add a Gnosis to them he would still be weaker no?

Agree on the former, disagree on the latter.

We can also surmise the archons aren’t equal even with Gnosis as Egeria and Makoto died to the cataclysm monsters while Mavuika handled them just fine.

Right, but that just says that “Archon” level doesn’t exist, and as such, tiering characters based off it is dubious at best.

Nahida is also a great example of this as even though she weilded two Gnoses she said she couldn’t do anything to Dottore who is at best comparable to archons so there is a gap that exists

Nahida could not use two gnoses in combat, but regardless, it just reinforces my point. The whole tiering of the verse needs a rework when the measuring system we use for inverse scaling is quite literally inconsistent.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

This is kinda wrong since 魔神 its used to described (most of the time) Pre Archon War Gods in Teyvat. But its a term that its more consistent to describe an Archon's power since its even used to describe Skof being an Archon lvl threath

That’s wrong, because Varesa’s tribal quests refer to Bifrons, in his current state, as a 魔神. The idea that Skirk was referring to Archons is based off context as well, not because of terminology.

In the same vein, i can also say that 神明 is used to refer to the Archons consistently, but that also falls apart because there is plenty of examples where it’s used to refer to normal gods like Orobashi.

Istaroth is referred to as 魔神 after Venti’s ascension.

Even do i won't dennied a gnosis is a great source of power, the electro gnosis was never utilized by Ei, just by Makoto. So at best we could say a thing i already said in the OP

Wrong. Yae at the end of Act 3 Inazuma says that Ei at one point in time needed the gnosis, but she gave it away because she didn’t need it anymore, specifically because she wanted to cut ties off with celestia.

Rukkha: Well, she is featless and just upscales Nahida and Equals SnK

I mean, yes, but that’s kinda my point. You can’t really go anywhere with downscaling these characters to “deity” level. They are still archons. But if you somehow decrease Archon level to nothing but two members, that kinda makes no sense. The top 3, and the archons that the top 3 are comparable to vastly overpower SnK relatively easily. There is nothing in the game called

That being said we don't have enough evidence to still put SnK at Archon lvl. At best he upscales non Archon deitys and featless Archons such as Rukkha and Makoto which is nowhere close Zhongli, Ei, Mavuika or Venti

Scara had a much higher base than Venti when they both ascended, therefore Scara would be stronger than Venti. I can argue the same for Zhongli, who’s AW self only really has destructive feats and he doesn’t perform as well during inverse battles, but it’s a can of worms i’d not open at this time.

I do agree that he doesn’t scale to Ei nor Mavuika, as Ei is at least relative to 6E traveler w/ Nightsoul and Mavuika is massively superior to the latter with Nightsoul.

 

[AyOgUyS]

• Shouki no Kami: For obvious reasons
• Wanderer: He could fight against Shouki no Kami

A Gnosis is only "a significant portion" of an Archon's power so at least half and since the Shouki no Kami is empowered by the Electro Gnosis I think it should only scale to half of wherever Archons scale and Wanderer upscales since he literally beat the Shouki no Kami

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Right, but that just says that “Archon” level doesn’t exist, and as such, tiering characters based off it is dubious at best.

Nahida could not use two gnoses in combat, but regardless, it just reinforces my point. The whole tiering of the verse needs a rework when the measuring system we use for inverse scaling is quite literally inconsistent.

So does this call for another CRT or can we try and sort out the scaling here?

 

[Puppet43]

Wrong. Yae at the end of Act 3 Inazuma says that Ei at one point in time needed the gnosis

When is said point? And did she realize any feats with such?

Scara had a much higher base than Venti when they both ascended, therefore Scara would be stronger than Venti. I can argue the same for Zhongli, who’s AW self only really has destructive feats

Venti ascended with Istaroth's power also by his aid. So even if Scara had a stronger base than him u won't be able to scale SnK to Venti just because of Istaroth intervention
with Morax, even do we have little info about his past, we knew that even before the Archon War had finish he could rival Angels. Which are currently getting evaluated to 5-B

You can’t really go anywhere with downscaling these characters to “deity” level. They are still archons. But if you somehow decrease Archon level to nothing but two members, that kinda makes no sense.

I mean most Archons have no real inverse outside of the playables (except Nahida), thats why i think its called "Archon tier"
And even still, the mayority would be in said tier; we would had 5 Archons in Archon tier (Venti, Morax, Ei, Mavu and Xbalanque) while there would be another 5 (Makoto, Foca, Nahida, Rukkha, Egeria) would be lower, and like 3 of them had no relevance outside 1 quest

A Gnosis is only "a significant portion" of an Archon's power so at least half and since the Shouki no Kami is empowered by the Electro Gnosis I think it should only scale to half of wherever Archons scale and Wanderer upscales since he literally beat the Shouki no Kami

This would work if all Gnosis were equally in power, but we know its not the case
Like with 2 Gnosis Nahida could just threat the 2nd Harbinger to a what if scenario (do she most likely she didn't know how to use the electro one still she had her own gnosis and she mentioned to be no match) meanwhile Mavuika could handle the 1st Harbinger with mid - high difficulty

 

[Puppet43]

And did she realize any feats with such?

Ok so she gained it upon Makoto's death and then left it to Yae when she created the Puppet, barely 100 - 50 years of use and no mention of a destructive feat

This would work if all Gnosis were equally in power, but we know its not the case

I just realize, Focalors used the gnosis to gather 500 years of power and killing herself. This could be use as a base gnosis power (Its something like 6C - High 6C but since we don't have an accepted calc rn we would it for the sake of simplicity stand at 6-C scaling above Boreas or Orobashi)

 

[Frostyyyy12]

When is said point? And did she realize any feats with such?

The end, when she talks about the Gnosis.

Venti ascended with Istaroth's power also by his aid. So even if Scara had a stronger base than him u won't be able to scale SnK to Venti just because of Istaroth intervention

You’d have to quantify Istaroth’s power for one, since it was explicitly said to be a chip that he got. And for two, that power isn’t a part of his conventional arsenal. So i don’t know what point you’re making anyway. We do not count Ronova’s power as a part of Mavuika’s normal arsenal.

Further, whenever Venti draws upon Istaroth’s power, he has to pay by offering up time, i.e, explaining why he goes into long slumbers. That’s also why his cooldown is much longer in gameplay after the Hexenkrei buffs. Source: GenshinFEST 2026 combat designer interview.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Impact/s/XHqLFjWEfN

with Morax, even do we have little info about his past, we knew that even before the Archon War had finish he could rival Angels. Which are currently getting evaluated to 5-B

Current morax is the same as Archon war morax. Archon war morax was simply a gnosisless Morax. Prime Morax loses a gnosis, and becomes current morax, with 2000+ years of faith build up. There’s no reason to suggest that he’s weaker than his AW self, that’d be your burden to prove. Also, he does not rival the angels, that’s a mistranslation:

可身具如此神通，却又并非天使一族，令兹白十分惊异.

Despite possessing such divine powers, they were not of the angel race, which greatly astonished Zibai.

I mean most Archons have no real inverse outside of the playables (except Nahida), thats why i think its called "Archon tier"

I mean. On one end, you have the likes of Ei and Mavuika, alongside Xbalanque, and on the middle end, you have Morax, Rukh, and on the low end, you have the likes of Venti and Nahida. These gaps are far too wide to create a tier like this.

And even still, the mayority would be in said tier; we would had 5 Archons in Archon tier (Venti, Morax, Ei, Mavu and Xbalanque) while there would be another 5 (Makoto, Foca, Nahida, Rukkha, Egeria) would be lower, and like 3 of them had no relevance outside 1 quest

In reality, only Ei, Mavu and Xbalanque actually qualify for that. The other two are sneaks. Even in your case, that’s not what i’d call majority.

These people are still Archons. HoYoverse is not abiding by our tiering system. Rukh, Venti, Makoto etc are still Archons. If the statement said SnK was Archon level, then you should’ve attacked the idea about where exactly he’d be in archon level and therefore he doesn’t scale to that tier, not throw out that idea as a whole, and try to make it consistent, because contextually, SnK is called Archon level.

This would work if all Gnosis were equally in power, but we know its not the case

Why wouldn’t they be? They’re all just body parts of Saarelainen divided by 7.

Like with 2 Gnosis Nahida could just threat the 2nd Harbinger to a what if scenario (do she most likely she didn't know how to use the electro one still she had her own gnosis and she mentioned to be no match) meanwhile Mavuika could handle the 1st Harbinger with mid - high difficulty

Huh? Nahida didn’t threaten Dottore with power. She simply threatened him by saying that she’ll blow up the gnosis.

She’d have otherwise gotten cooked in a fight, and she couldn’t use the Electro gnosis in combat (you likely need authority to use it as well), Dottore implies that the Electro Gnosis would’ve been significant if she used it.

Nahida’s base is vastly different. That’s why Mavuika is equal to Capitano while Nahida gets low diffed by Dottore casually despite both of them having a gnosis, not because Gnoses provide different boosts.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Ok so she gained it upon Makoto's death and then left it to Yae when she created the Puppet, barely 100 - 50 years of use and no mention of a destructive feat

That’s not the point. The way Yae words it implies that Ei needs the gnosis’s power, which implies that it’s power was a significant boost to Ei.

Also, Ei does have environmental feats after getting the gnosis. Namely the Mt Yogou slice and killing Mikoshi Chiyo. That’s one of Ei’s better destructive feats.

I just realize, Focalors used the gnosis to gather 500 years of power and killing herself. This could be use as a base gnosis power (Its something like 6C - High 6C but since we don't have an accepted calc rn we would it for the sake of simplicity stand at 6-C scaling above Boreas or Orobashi)

Focalors did not use the gnosis to do that though? She used faith like any other god, and she simply collected the power she gets from faith and stored it, and then used that to destroy herself and the throne.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

So does this call for another CRT or can we try and sort out the scaling here?

I’m not sure.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I’m not sure.

Well I think it’d be better if we don’t have too many CRTs running so let’s just edit this OP and get the scaling changed here. We’re already discussing god scaling anyways.

Let’s say that aside from Mavuika and Ei scaling to one another, and expressly stated stronger characters scaling over weaker ones we won’t scale gods to each other anymore.

So basically only Zhongli and prime Azhdaha get 5B due to scaling to Nicole and angels.

Ei, Mavuika, Capitano, Pyro Traveler, Xabalanque and Skirk scale to 6C

Prime Venti scales to 6B

Dvalin, Durin, Arlecchino, base Dottore, Dendro Traveler, Scaramouche, base Neuv and Fontaine Tortellini are going into tier 7?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

We’re probably gonna have to take a look at the speed scaling again too. Several characters’ justification is just: they’re comparable to other gods because they’re gods.

 

[Hjdjdhf]

This is entirely reasonable; 魔神 也有强弱之分

 

[Hjdjdhf]

Venti said that the Gnosis are of no use to him，Here

Venti: Honestly, the Gnosis was of no use to me. I didn't care who it belonged to, or what means were used to take it...

 

[Hjdjdhf]

Venti said that the Gnosis are of no use to him，Here

Therefore, I am more inclined to think this thing is a seal for official documents.
Because they obtained one of these seven seats through another power, and then received Gnosis

 

[AyOgUyS]

This would work if all Gnosis were equally in power, but we know its not the case
Like with 2 Gnosis Nahida could just threat the 2nd Harbinger to a what if scenario (do she most likely she didn't know how to use the electro one still she had her own gnosis and she mentioned to be no match) meanwhile Mavuika could handle the 1st Harbinger with mid - high difficulty

While I stopped playing after Fontaine so I have absolutely no clue how Mavuika VS Capitano went, what if Mavuika is just incredibly strong on top of having a Gnosis?

 

[Frostyyyy12]

So basically only Zhongli and prime Azhdaha get 5B due to scaling to Nicole and angels.

I explained before that Zhongli has no scaling to Angels, it’s simply a mistranslation.

Ei, Mavuika, Capitano, Pyro Traveler, Xabalanque and Skirk scale to 6C

All of the characters above have 6B feats. Prime Venti’s 6B feat is extremely dubious. And even then, they should have scaling chains from Durin, who’s stronger than Prime Venti by a substantial margin.

There’s so many stuff that in this verse that needs rework that i don’t even know if i should care or put the effort in discussing atp, and woomy’s ahh got banned too.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Venti said that the Gnosis are of no use to him，Here

That’s cool, but it’s not from a strength perspective or else it breaks down the entire narrative. Venti probably knows that Gnoses are Saarelainen’s remains and does not really care for it.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

Therefore, I am more inclined to think this thing is a seal for official documents.
Because they obtained one of these seven seats through another power, and then received Gnosis

Venti did not obtain a seat through power.
Rukh did not obtain a seat through power.
Egeria did not obtain a seat through power.
The Tsar is ???
Makoto didn’t either, but Ei did.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

While I stopped playing after Fontaine so I have absolutely no clue how Mavuika VS Capitano went, what if Mavuika is just incredibly strong on top of having a Gnosis?

That’s true. Mavuika is also implied to be stronger than the Tsaritsa, and the remaining harbingers, as Venti says that since not even Capitano could take the gnosis by force, we have nothing to worry about in regards to her plan progressing. Which just tells us that the Tsaritsa cannot take it by force from here.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

woomy’s ahh got banned too.

What happen to him?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I explained before that Zhongli has no scaling to Angels, it’s simply a mistranslation.

All of the characters above have 6B feats. Prime Venti’s 6B feat is extremely dubious. And even then, they should have scaling chains from Durin, who’s stronger than Prime Venti by a substantial margin.

There’s so many stuff that in this verse that needs rework that i don’t even know if i should care or put the effort in discussing atp, and woomy’s ahh got banned too.

Bruh this is worse than I thought.

What did the translation say concerning Zhongli and the angels?

Was Venti in his prime when he faced Durin? I assumed his prime was just after the archon war and he’d grown weaker since then but maybe I’m bugging. Besides that why are those characters scaling to Durin?

Let’s just start with sorting out where these dudes scale and move from there. We can take it one at a time,

 

[AyOgUyS]

That’s true. Mavuika is also implied to be stronger than the Tsaritsa, and the remaining harbingers, as Venti says that since not even Capitano could take the gnosis by force, we have nothing to worry about in regards to her plan progressing. Which just tells us that the Tsaritsa cannot take it by force from here.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

What did the translation say concerning Zhongli and the angels?

The CN just says he has godlike power. Zibai was just surprised that a non-angel had these powers:

可身具如此神通，却又并非天使一族，令兹白十分惊异.

Despite possessing such divine powers, they were not of the angel race, which greatly astonished Zibai.

Was Venti in his prime when he faced Durin? I assumed his prime was just after the archon war and he’d grown weaker since then but maybe I’m bugging.

Venti never says he grew weaker. He just says that he hasn’t had the opportunity to grow stronger, which is evident because you need to manually draw in faith to grow stronger. For which you’d need to be awake, but because Venti used Istaroth’s power in Tenochzitoc to save Tevyat from Bakunawa’s Abyssal corruption, he went into slumber for 500 years.

Plus Venti had plenty of reverence back then, that was why he woke up in the first place.

Besides that why are those characters scaling to Durin?

Mini-durin is as strong as the original Durin, and not a drop less, as stated by Rhinedottir. This means that anyone who has scaling to mini-durin should have scaling as well. I think that Varka, despite having the cast like Albedo etc supporting him, saying that Traveler is kind of the dealbreaker to deal with Roland, can suggest that the 6E traveler is stronger than Durin.

Durin’s scaling is wonky at best, but i’d like to backtrack here and say that i’m not actually sure about any chains linking Ei to Durin at his full capacity, though that’s a different case altogether, but another thing to note is that Dvalin, in the Mondstadt story, was stronger than the Dvalin who fought and killed durin. The common retort people use is that “Dvalin was weakened”, but that’s not the case at all. 6.4, we explicitly learnt that the Abyss makes you stronger, and this was applied in Dvalin’s case. Moreover, the only indication of Dvalin being weakened to any degree is his “claws being dulled”, but that’s not saying the force he hits with got weaker, it’s just saying that he’s rusty.

Lisa also said that Dvalin was outright stronger than the wind itself when we faced him due to the fact that he was amped by the 4th temple which we didn’t take down.

The likes of Mavuika, Xbalanque etc scale above Bakunawa, narratively implied to do so through the fact that we know there was someone during the Cataclysm that was capable of beating up Bakunawa and testing it’s regeneration (eg: cutting it’s head and whatnot). The Pyro Archons would scale above this because they’re the strongest in Natlan, and Bakunawa should scale above Durin, as he has a higher/more transcendent form of abyssal power that not even Rhinedottir before the Cataclysm could harness.

 

[Puppet43]

You’d have to quantify Istaroth’s power for one, since it was explicitly said to be a chip that he got. And for two, that power isn’t a part of his conventional arsenal. So i don’t know what point you’re making anyway. We do not count Ronova’s power as a part of Mavuika’s normal arsenal.

But in Venti's case it is implied to be more part of his base arsenal than Mavu

There’s no reason to suggest that he’s weaker than his AW self, that’d be your burden to prove. Also, he does not rival the angels, that’s a mistranslation:

Even without said statment, Zibai consider him a worthy opponent to spar and she aided Morax in subdue Azdhada

Rukh, and on the low end, you have the likes of Venti and Nahida

"Rukkha above Venti"
Featless vs Carrying the entire Archon tier, in fact the most recent event show us how a Weakend Abyssal Dvalin could parry Post Bina amp Traveler yet Venti and Dvalin easily deal with the same enemy

because contextually, SnK is called Archon level.

What feats does he have to back this up?
Beat up a child and a Traveler much weaker than the one that couldn't beat up the 4th Harbinger?

She simply threatened him by saying that she’ll blow up the gnosis.

Yeah that what i said, she threated him by telling "what if Phanes came?"

not because Gnoses provide different boosts.

I mean in a previous statment u just said "Dottore would be really concern in she knew how to use the electro gnosis" meaning the Dendro Gnosis is not enough

Namely the Mt Yogou slice and killing Mikoshi Chiyo. That’s one of Ei’s better destructive feats.

I mean that could work, if its still with the consistent range

She used faith like any other god, and she simply collected the power she gets from faith and stored it

She stored in a Gnosis a power that could feed up Fontaine for over 2000 years, if the Gnosis didnt explode because of how much energy was store, that means that at base it could store that much or higher

Was Venti in his prime when he faced Durin? I assumed his prime was just after the archon war and he’d grown weaker since then but maybe I’m bugging. Besides that why are those characters scaling to Durin?

Venti should be in his prime at Durin's battle by how much people were praying for him to came, and we know a god power came from that (+ he had so much power could amp Dvalin to be at par)

Albedo etc supporting him, saying that Traveler is kind of the dealbreaker to deal with Roland, can suggest that the 6E traveler is stronger than Durin.

Low key i just think Playable Durin is getting reduce to support in actual combats because reasons i already told (regarding this new event)

but that’s not the case at all. 6.4, we explicitly learnt that the Abyss makes you stronger

It makes u stronger if u know how to use said energy, AQ Dvalin was just mind corrupted didn't know how to use the abyss

 

[Puppet43]

Anyways this is getting too derived
Are u guys telling me if u agree or disagree?

 

[LoudestProcedure]

Put me in neutral for now

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The CN just says he has godlike power. Zibai was just surprised that a non-angel had these powers:




Venti never says he grew weaker. He just says that he hasn’t had the opportunity to grow stronger, which is evident because you need to manually draw in faith to grow stronger. For which you’d need to be awake, but because Venti used Istaroth’s power in Tenochzitoc to save Tevyat from Bakunawa’s Abyssal corruption, he went into slumber for 500 years.

Plus Venti had plenty of reverence back then, that was why he woke up in the first place.

Mini-durin is as strong as the original Durin, and not a drop less, as stated by Rhinedottir. This means that anyone who has scaling to mini-durin should have scaling as well. I think that Varka, despite having the cast like Albedo etc supporting him, saying that Traveler is kind of the dealbreaker to deal with Roland, can suggest that the 6E traveler is stronger than Durin.

Durin’s scaling is wonky at best, but i’d like to backtrack here and say that i’m not actually sure about any chains linking Ei to Durin at his full capacity, though that’s a different case altogether, but another thing to note is that Dvalin, in the Mondstadt story, was stronger than the Dvalin who fought and killed durin. The common retort people use is that “Dvalin was weakened”, but that’s not the case at all. 6.4, we explicitly learnt that the Abyss makes you stronger, and this was applied in Dvalin’s case. Moreover, the only indication of Dvalin being weakened to any degree is his “claws being dulled”, but that’s not saying the force he hits with got weaker, it’s just saying that he’s rusty.

Lisa also said that Dvalin was outright stronger than the wind itself when we faced him due to the fact that he was amped by the 4th temple which we didn’t take down.

The likes of Mavuika, Xbalanque etc scale above Bakunawa, narratively implied to do so through the fact that we know there was someone during the Cataclysm that was capable of beating up Bakunawa and testing it’s regeneration (eg: cutting it’s head and whatnot). The Pyro Archons would scale above this because they’re the strongest in Natlan, and Bakunawa should scale above Durin, as he has a higher/more transcendent form of abyssal power that not even Rhinedottir before the Cataclysm could harness.

Wow so like no one gets 5B lol

Got it. Are we gonma use Venti’s statement about being the weakest archon for scaling or does that only apply to present day?

Maybe but Varka could’ve also just been referring to Traveler’s Abyss countering abilites as that is mainly what Traveler did then.

Is Lisa correct? Venti seemed to buffed Traveler with enough power to drive Dvalin away in their little aerial dog fight.

If Mavuika scales above Durin and by extension Venti then Ei should scale too as she and Mavuika are implied to be relative based on her voicelines. Traveler also no matter what scales somewhat to Mavuika and all this due to the Gosoythoth fight.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Anyways this is getting too derived
Are u guys telling me if u agree or disagree?

I agree

 

[Hjdjdhf]

Venti did not obtain a seat through power.
Rukh did not obtain a seat through power.
Egeria did not obtain a seat through power.
The Tsar is ???
Makoto didn’t either, but Ei did.

How could that be? Don't forget that Venti first obtained the power of Istaroth before later becoming a Archon。
It's normal that the Gnosis is useless against the power of Istaroth.
Primordial Archons had already won the War of the Divine before obtaining Gnosis.

 

[Hjdjdhf]

Are we gonma use Venti’s statement about being the weakest archon for scaling or does that only apply to present day?

It feels okay because this is indeed what he said himself

 

[Hjdjdhf]

Durin’s scaling is wonky at best, but i’d like to backtrack here and say that i’m not actually sure about any chains linking Ei to Durin at his full capacity, though that’s a different case altogether, but another thing to note is that Dvalin, in the Mondstadt story, was stronger than the Dvalin who fought and killed durin. The common retort people use is that “Dvalin was weakened”, but that’s not the case at all. 6.4, we explicitly learnt that the Abyss makes you stronger, and this was applied in Dvalin’s case. Moreover, the only indication of Dvalin being weakened to any degree is his “claws being dulled”, but that’s not saying the force he hits with got weaker, it’s just saying that he’s rusty.

In that case, Varka > Dvalin > Durin?
Based on this https://b23.tv/5S1vs5e

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Interesting Verse.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

In that case, Varka > Dvalin > Durin?
Based on this https://b23.tv/5S1vs5e

Dvalin had help from Venti to actually beat Durin and Durin was honestly playing with them as he didn’t realise he was in a deathmatch.

Durin and Varka should be stronger than Dvalin.

 

[Frostyyyy12]

But in Venti's case it is implied to be more part of his base arsenal than Mavu

It is not. Venti has to specifically sacrifice a lot in order to use it, hence he doesn’t always rely on it. So why would that be a part of his base arsenal?
Also, sorry for the late reply. VSBW does not give me notifications.

Even without said statment, Zibai consider him a worthy opponent to spar and she aided Morax in subdue Azdhada

1. That’s not saying anything. It’s just saying that Zibai was impressed enough that a non-angel was strong that she wanted to fight them. Ei wants to spar with absolute randoms as well but does this mean that they’re relative to her? Nothing implies that Zhongli is in the same tier as Zibai.
2. She aided Morax in subduing Azhdaha when she was just one of the Three Deadly Selves. It’s explicitly stated that the Three Deadly are not the real deal especially in strength and presence.

Featless vs Carrying the entire Archon tier, in fact the most recent event show us how a Weakend Abyssal Dvalin could parry Post Bina amp Traveler yet Venti and Dvalin easily deal with the same enemy

Carrying the entire archon tier when he’s like, got a non special feat and is explicitly weaker than a lot of the archons?

The most recent event has it explicitly saying that the Abyss made Dvalin much stronger. The idea that the abyssal dvalin can “parry” post Bina traveler is also extremely dubious because all the Traveler does is swing his sword once without even using his elements, and Bina’s amp was specifically related to the elements.

Varka straight up went ahead and oneshotted the Abyss amped Dvalin.

What feats does he have to back this up?
Beat up a child and a Traveler much weaker than the one that couldn't beat up the 4th Harbinger?

But that’s not a retort? You’re moving the goalposts. SnK is implicitly stronger than Venti since he’s had a stronger base. Morax also lacks feats and his current version is kept up by the 2E traveler which implies that Scara has a higher base than AW morax as well.

I mean in a previous statment u just said "Dottore would be really concern in she knew how to use the electro gnosis" meaning the Dendro Gnosis is not enough

I said that she couldn’t use the gnosis to defend herself, and that dottore talks as if it could make a difference. The idea is that despite the massively heavy difference in their base stats, the gnosis was still relevant to their combat strength. The dendro gnosis is not enough because Nahida has a weak base, and Dottore holds more strength than a gnosis amp alone.

I mean that could work, if its still with the consistent range

What’s the basis here?

She stored in a Gnosis a power that could
feed up Fontaine for over 2000 years, if the Gnosis didnt explode because of how much energy was store, that means that at base it could store that much or higher

And where are you getting the idea that she stored all that energy in the gnosis? This was never said. All that was said was that the OMDC converts faith into Indemnitium, but Focalors had been secretly building it up inside it, nothing about how she stored it into the gnosis.

Low key i just think Playable Durin is getting reduce to support in actual combats because reasons i already told (regarding this new event)

I mean, it doesn’t matter, support or not, he’d still be supporting with a tremendous amount of power (i.e, durin’s).

It makes u stronger if u know how to use said energy, AQ Dvalin was just mind corrupted didn't know how to use the abyss

That’s false. The abyss corrupts you and makes you it’s weapon of war:

"The nature of the 'Abyss' is essentially irreconcilable with the elements. However, even the elements of gods can be entrapped and distorted before they are subsumed to become tools of the abyssal will. Just judging from outcomes and practical use, "Abyssal powers" seem little different from elemental items, from ones as paltry as the Treasure Hoarders' elemental containers to those as powerful as Visions..."

—Notes left behind in Hangeh Afrasiyab by someone.

Dvalin had practically become an Abyssal entity by the time we fought him, and the power of the abyss within him became stronger and stronger, it had fused with his flesh, bones and consciousness:

Because a seal doesn't solve the root problem. Over time, the Abyss would just grow stronger and stronger, deteriorating Dvalin's consciousness until there was nothing left.
The power of the Abyss has fused with his flesh and bones. Purifying him now, in this state, is no different than sentencing him to death.

This is also why Xiuhcoatl was not weakened, but rather stronger when he fought Xbalanque. Even skirk says that one of the ways that the Abyss interacts with living beings is by making them stronger. Plus, Nibelung was described the same way Dvalin is. Are you saying he was weaker when he fought the PO in the War of Vengeance? So far, we know of 3-4 dragons that have experienced the same effect:

1. Nibelung
2. Xiuhcoatl
3. Dvalin
4. Kongomoto

In Kongomoto’s case, this is explicitly said:

阿乔 : 它的肉体与战斗本能被深渊的诡力保存，但它的灵魂早就被五百年的时间磨为了齑粉！

Ajaw: Its physical body and combat instincts have been preserved by the Abyss's sinister power, but its soul was ground to dust long ago by five hundred years of time!

What the Abyss does is corrupt you, take over your body, and use your power to fuel itself, that is also what Xiuhcoatl said. The abyss within you becomes stronger before eventually creating an Abyssal entity that is essentially a version of you on steroids.