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Celestialsapien Upgrade (Scaled to Chrono Navigator)

Well, Dark is the only admin other than me who agreed. It doesn't matter much to me if a solid rating is used or a compromise one, that depends on what others like better
 
Okay. You can ask them to comment here again if you wish.
 
I thought I already posted my thoughts, apparently I haven't - weird.

Anyway, since I don't see any Tl:DR for the opposition, and the propsoal seems legitimate as well as it coalesces with my personal knowledge about the series when I used to watch and like Ben 10.


I agree with the upgrade unless I see some good reason to not to.
 
I don't think I'd consider myself an important contributor or a particularly convicted opponent to the upgrades, but I also have not been swayed to agreement yet. If someone would like me to post a TL;DR regarding my personal issues with the change, I will.
 
Short Summary Regarding My Personal Reservations: The proposed changes involve scaling the Celestialsapiens to the Chrono Navigator, despite the fact that the two items are never directly compared. This scaling is dependant upon the fact that Professor Paradox once called Celestialsapiens "the universe's greatest power" during a time when he did technically ow the Chrono Navigator, but it was not established to be capable of destroying the multiverse until over two years later in a completely unrelated storyline. At the time, it was basically just used for teleporting and traveling through time. Given these facts, it is entirely possible and even likely that the writers were not considering the Chrono Navigator when writing Professor Paradox's original line about Celestialsapiens being "the universe's greatest power." They would not establish multiversal destruction as one of its functions until years later, so it would naturally be a non-factor at the time.
 
@ClassicNESfa

Paradox created and owns the Chrono Navigator. In-universe he would know the capabilities of the device when making the statement about Celestialsapiens. Paradox describing what his Chrono Navigator does at a later date doesn't change the scaling he set up in Ultimate Alien.

At the time, Ultimate Alien Paradox basically said Celestialsapiens posses the greatest power he's ever seen. In turn, this would include any sources of power that Paradox is aware of, including his Chrono Navigator.

Unknow = Chrono Navigator's Power < Celestialsapiens

When Paradox elaborated on what the Chrono Navigator can do, it just gave us the AP scale. Nothing contradicts his previous statements.

2-B = Chrono Navigator's Power < Celestialsapiens

Whether Omniverse happened or not, the scale would still be the same.

For example, let's say that Kevin owns a ship that he built, and he says Ben's ship is the fastest ship he's seen. Ben's ship casually goes 750x SoL. Both ships stay in the same exact condition for 2 years. Now, Kevin goes for a ride, and his ship caps at 1000x SoL. It's reasonable to say that Ben's ship in this case is faster than 1000x SoL.
 
I think your response misunderstands some very fundemental things about my reservation. The argument you're posing would make sense if Professor Paradox was a real person, the Chrono Navagator was a real thing, and the events of Ben 10 actually occured, but obviously, none of that is the case. If the writers were treating the Chrono Navigator as a simple teleportation/time travel mechanism during the events of Ultimate Alien, then obviously, they were not going to factor it in when having a character postulate about "the universe's greatest power." If two years later, someone said "Hey! Let's write a plot where it turns out the Chrono Navigator can be used to destroy all of space and time!" then that feat cannot be applied to the version of the object being written back before the plot was conceived.

Your ship example is completely different because you're creating a false dichotomy. Ben's ship and Kevin's ship are easily comperable. They're both ships. Why don't we tweak it a little? Let's say Kevin said Ben's ship is "the fastest thing he's ever seen" and then throughout every appearance of Ben's ship its top speed is never specified but a lot of people say "Wow, this thing is really fast!" Then all the sudden, 2 years later in a plot where Ben's ship makes no appearance and is not referenced at all, some bad guy tries to steal a new MacGuffin called "the Quantum Time Displacer," which is a weapon Kevin is familiar with because of his days as a villain. It turns out the Quantum Time Displacer can make you so immensely fast that the characters insist anybody who uses it is practically omnipresent. Kevin mentions he's seen it used before. Then a group of fans online start claiming that this is evidence Ben's ship can move so fast that it becomes practically omnipresent, because Kevin said Ben's ship was the fastest thing he's ever seen and then two years later in an unrelated plot line he claimed he'd once seen someone use the Quantum Time Displacer. Therefore, Ben's Ship > The Quantum Time Displacer. Obviously, this is not good scaling.
 
I should have been more specific about my example.

While I agree that there are obvious limits to this type of scaling, your issue doesn't really apply to the Celestialsapiens situation. Alien X casually creates a universe. It's not unreasonable that Alien X could be multiversal. The Chrono Navigator, being a degree of multiversal, is well within that acceptable range. That's also not mentioning that Alien X recreated the Chronosapien Time Bomb. The in-show statements and the scalings aren't outlandishly contrasting.

It would be very different situation if the Chrono Navigator was stated to be Hyperversal.
 
@ClassicNESfan Professor Paradox mentions in the Alien Force episode "Paradox" him and Ben working together to save the universe at one point in the future. This could very well reference "Ben Again" or the final episode with Maltruant years before they were produced and both involving the time war which forced Paradox to replace his hand with a mechanical chrono navigator hand so Eon couldn't steal it as easily.
 
We usually look at scaling from an in-universe perspective, rather than focusing on what the author may have been intending, focusing on what objectively happens within the confines of a narrative. Usually authors don't expect vaporization and kinetic energy feats to produce the insane results they do, but we don't dismiss them for that reason since they still happened regardless of whether the characters were intended to be that strong

With the ship example, if we end up rejecting scaling it would be based on the likelihood of Kevin as a ficticious individual not taking into account the device when making the statement, not the likelihood of the writers forgetting about it, perhaps it was a throwaway statement or perhaps he didn't remember the existence of the device when admiring his friend's ship, those would be valid reasons for rejecting the rating. As far as possible we have to think of stories as being their own universes, since that's the usual approach this site takes towards powerscaling, this is not to say out-of-universe concepts like PIS, retcons, inconsistencies can't exist, but needing confirmation that a writer intended what we conclude from in-universe information in order to accept it is really not our general way of doing things
 
The problem is not the level of power. The problem is that it's being applied backwards.

There is no reason to believe that the writers considered the thing on Professor Paradox's arm any more than a simple time travel device back when he called Celestialsapiens "the universe's greatest power." That line was written that way because they probably had not yet considered making the Chrono Navigator into a multiverse devistating super weapon. It's kind of like how the DC character Thunderbolt helped fight the Anti-Monitor in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Thunderbolt is explicitly a 5th dimensional imp, so that should make the Anti-Monitor 5 dimensional as well, right? He tanked hits from a 5 dimensional character! Well no, because Thunderblot was not revealed to be a 5th dimensional imp until years later, and we have no evidence that was the original intention behind his character.

Greenshifter's comment is the first to provide any evidence that the writers might have been planning to reveal the Chrono Navigator as multiversal from the beginning. And I don't know the exact scene he's referencing, but if the full quote supports his point, then I'd be happy to concede my stance.

Similarly, Andy argues that my metatextual approach simply is not a standard or accepted analysis method on this site, which is fine. I'm new here. Everybody has a different way of doing things, and it's quite possible that I just haven't adapted to the rules yet. I'm fine to concede on those grounds as well.

But for the time being, I still hold that it is not reasonable to assume that the Chrono Navigator's multiversal abilities were being considered when Professor Paradox called Celestialsapiens "the universe's greatest power," as those multiversal abilities had not yet been established or likely even conceived. Whether you accept that as substantial enough to prevent an upgrade is your own porrogative.

It is not unthinkable that the Celestialsapiens could be multiversal beings. Their universal feats seem to be done very casually. But the only evidence I've seen here seems to consistenly point to universal. Just take a look at the quotes. "The most powerful being in the universe" (X = Ben + 2), "the greatest power in the universe" (Map of Infinity), "greatest power in the universe," "the universe's greatest power" (Forge of Creation), "Celestialsapiens change the universe as often as my client changes his shirt," "Celestialsapiens change the universe all the time," "Celestialsapiens are out there changing the universe at this very moment" (Universe VS Tennyson). Every single vague quote involving "omnipotence" or their ability to "do anything" is solely within the context of universal quotes. Even the writers seem to think Celestialsapiens are universal. This is a stark contrast to the Chrono Navigator, which is very explicitely multiversal in the only ever discussion about the extent of its abilities. "Absolute power over everything. All timelines, all alternate realities. Everything," "destroy all of time and causality itself," "dominion over all space and time," "Every time-line, every alternate reality" (Ben Again). When ambiguous statements like "all of existence" are said in this context, it's clearly referring to the entire multiverse. It then seems like reaching to me if your only way of upgrading a repeatedly universal being is to retroactively scale it to an explicitely multiversal device by use of a fairly general quote that did not directly reference said device and was said by someone years before said device was established by the writers as multiversal. Again, it's fine if that's just not how the rules work here or if there's extra context that I'm missing, but I do not consider this a good argument at present. The final decision also isn't up to me, so take that as you will. I would personally prefer some actual multiversal feats, some multiversal statements, or even a more direct comparison to the Chrono Navigator.
 
Fighting a 5th dimensional character doesn't make you 5th dimensional as well.
 
But you are arguing backwards not in an in-universe sense, but from yhe perspective of the writers. Not only is that wild speculation, it doesn't bring any relevant problems in-universe because there's seemingly none. Paradox is capable of easily finding and transporting Ben to the best possible Earth future but can't recall the device he himself made and uses a lot when making an statement about Celestialsapiens.

Your example doesn't even work either, considering the specific situation of big comics with multiple changing writers with many times multiple, clashing ideas. That's if we just decide to use authorial intent as you are, but even without this, you don't need to be higher dimensional to fight someone higher dimensional.

Push away from your understanding of Ben 10 as a story for a moment. Is there any way in which you can convince yourself Paradox doesn't know the power of his own devices while making that statement about the Celestialsapiens? That's my main question, trying to use our standards here, is there like any in universe reasoning you can provide or think of?
 
Not a staff member, but what does this mean about the character's he won against and lost to since they are now lower tiers and at lower AP?
 
Those matchup results have to all be removed, from all related pages.
 
Just edited the Chrono Navigator page.

Multiverse level (If desired, the Chrono Navigator can damage space-time to the point that "all of existence", referring to the number of alternate timelines that branch off "Ad infinitum", would be destroyed)

Anything in this that needs changing for the Celestialsapiens description?

Multiverse level (Stated by Professor Paradox to possess "the universe's greatest power," going as far to say they they are omnipotent and therefore above his Chrono Navigator. Effortlessly recreated a destroyed universe with a wave of his hand. Supposedly changed the art style for the Ben 10 series as a whole)
 
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