Clarifications on Bayonetta’s ratings

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Way ago, this thread was accepted, bringing Singularity to Low 1-C, along with the cast. However, after mulling things over, I have some concerns.

Singularity reached Ginunungagap, which led to its erasure. The thing is, existence erasure, by nature isn’t a physical AP feat. It’s made to bypass AP, and durability entirely. So, this being attributed to his AP doesn’t exactly make much sense, in my view.

In this vein, Singularity Chaos is described as absorbed energy from the many parallel worlds of the multiverse, which brings his attack power to the limit. In his final form, Singularity Definition is one with the multiverse:

Singularity's finished form in which it has completely integrated chaos energy. It has become an existence that could be viewed as the World of Chaos itself - the universe as it is recognized by mankind, that directs all logic in this world.

And again, here.

The thing is, this would only make his body 4-D, and only in Definition, as Singularity Chaos’ AP is explicated mentioned to be brought to its limit. This is supported by another excerpt, that supposed he has over parallel dimensions, which would, again, be universes in this context.

SUDA: All that expresses the overwhelming power of Singularity, which controls every phenomenon in the world; even in parallel dimensions. The fractals in the kaleidoscopic stage are motifs to give an esoteric, yet futuristic view of Singularity's world.

The way I’m viewing it, his erasure seems to be the only thing that exceeds his AP, and the only thing that’s actually shown to be effective on that level. Which, the way is put, would make him 2-A, and Low 1-C with erasure, or environmental destruction.

Agree (8): @Nexp06, @Planck69, @Theglassman12, @Lonkitt, @DarkGrath, @ImmortalDread, @CloverDragon03, @Georredannea15
Neutral:
Disagree (3): @Abu2411, @WeeklyBattles, @Comicgyal

 

[Theglassman12]

kinda seems fodder if him absorbing the multiverse energy in chaos only lets him level cities.

Either way I’m pretty sure the whole “he’s the universe itself” is just a fancy way of saying he controls reality. Given he doesn’t literally become one with the universe a la infinite Zamasu. As for the ratings yeah that seems to be just Low 1-C erasure as opposed to raw AP.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

kinda seems fodder if him absorbing the multiverse energy in chaos only lets him level cities.

Either way I’m pretty sure the whole “he’s the universe itself” is just a fancy way of saying he controls reality. Given he doesn’t literally become one with the universe a la infinite Zamasu. As for the ratings yeah that seems to be just Low 1-C erasure as opposed to raw AP.

Right, fair enough.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Afaik this kind of feats can be used to justify AP too, Zeno being the best example

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Afaik this kind of feats can be used to justify AP too, Zeno being the best example

That’s through his Ki, no?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

That’s through his Ki, no?

I think so?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I think so?

That would be different, as his Ki is something that he would use in combat.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

What about Rodin mentioning wiping out the entire trinity in a snap?

 

[Comicgyal]

I aim to address these concerns in my next thread, which will be a continuation of : https://vsbattles.com/threads/1-b-bayonetta-verse-upgrades.154492/page-3#post-5808242

But him being said to wipe out the trinity sounds like AP.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Geez how do you go from disagreeing with a upgrade CRT to immediately posting a downgrade CRT? is this some leftover resentment from Sm4sh Bayo?

I'll wait for the opposition to post their arguments since they weren't really given a chance to do things as planned also all the staff that agreed with the intial Low 1-C CRT should be pinged as well.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

There are also some feats that can be used/scaled as AP justification, as long as it is consistent and does not make it an Anti-feats.

Milly proposals seems make sense to me, but I’ll wait for the supporters to rebuttal the OP.

 

[Planck69]

Downgrading him to 2-A, Low 1-C via Erasure makes the most sense to me. Unlike with Zen'o, his actual raw power is only on the level of an infinite 4-dimensional multiverse and there doesn't seem to be any additional proof that the Low 1-C erasure is something that'd scale to his statistics at a base level.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Hi, I’m back, but I will not be engaging in any discussion overnight, just saw Across the Spider-Verse, so I am spending ALL my time on that, thank you.

 

[Lonkitt]

There are cases where erasure can be raw AP (sorta depends, in some better examples, it coincides with another specific ability or verse thing). In this case though, yeah, I agree with the propsoals

 

[CloverDragon03]

Put me down as tentatively agreeing, though I've heard of cases of EE being AP so I'm not entirely sure

 

[Lonkitt]

Put me down as tentatively agreeing, though I've heard of cases of EE being AP so I'm not entirely sure

Case by case pretty much

 

[DarkGrath]

I've been asked to reply here.

So, I definitely think some clarification is needed on how exactly Singularity destroyed Ginunungagap. It's simultaneously true that Existence Erasure feats typically aren't scaled to AP, and that destroying large spaces (like universes) often is scaled to AP.

These two may seem to be in contradiction, but the importance is the mechanism behind it. If a character exerts physical force on a space to destroy it, or if there is otherwise reason to believe the force needed to destroy that space can be translated into a character's other attacks, there is a clear precedent to scale that to their AP. The same can't be said if some intangible property of their abilities that is unrelated to their physical capabilities causes things to just stop existing, as is often (though notably not always) the case with Existence Erasure feats - in those cases, we'd normally say directly erasing something's existence isn't related to its durability, and therefore doesn't warrant scaling to their AP. In such a case, we'd typically treat such a feat as environmental destruction, as the OP suggests should be done here.

From what is provided in the OP, including the gif of Ginunungagap disappearing, it's not clear to me what exactly Singularity is doing to destroy it. I can't give a firm evaluation here without more understanding of the context.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This thread seems to have unfortunate timing (not blaming the OP, as they might not have been aware of an ongoing staff thread about it).

Staff thread Link: https://vsbattles.com/threads/staff-only-ee-ap-revision.152318/

To put it simply, the current consensus is that we generally don't allocate a specific tier for hax abilities. However, this decision is not yet finalized, and there are mostly three options that people are leaning towards:

1. Those who agree with tier 2 and above categorization for EE in the profiles, but disagree with including it for anything below tier 2.
2. Those who disagree with listing it in the AP section at all, but suggest including it in the description of the EE ability on the profiles.
3. Alternatively, adding a tier but with the requirement of providing specifications.

Speaking from my personal standpoint, I align myself with those who support options 1 and 3 due to their potential to enhance clarity and readability. However, I'm uncertain about the course of action to take if the current staff thread is still ongoing and no decisions have been implemented thus far.

Regarding the thread itself, I share the same confusion as DarkGrath and require further context. As of now, I maintain a neutral stance on the matter.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

From what is provided in the OP, including the gif of Ginunungagap disappearing, it's not clear to me what exactly Singularity is doing to destroy it. I can't give a firm evaluation here without more understanding of the context.

Basically, he is erasing the universe, in order to steal its Chaotic Energy. This erasure has been cited as obliterating the world, and pulling it into the void. After he’s done that so many times (erasure, and absorption), that destabilized Ginunungagap. He never actually enters Ginnungagap, and just outright erases it, so, yes, environmental destruction.

This thread seems to have unfortunate timing (not blaming the OP, as they might not have been aware of an ongoing staff thread about it).

Staff thread Link: https://vsbattles.com/threads/staff-only-ee-ap-revision.152318/

To put it simply, the current consensus is that we generally don't allocate a specific tier for hax abilities. However, this decision is not yet finalized, and there are mostly three options that people are leaning towards:

1. Those who agree with tier 2 and above categorization for EE in the profiles, but disagree with including it for anything below tier 2.
2. Those who disagree with listing it in the AP section at all, but suggest including it in the description of the EE ability on the profiles.
3. Alternatively, adding a tier but with the requirement of providing specifications.

Speaking from my personal standpoint, I align myself with those who support options 1 and 3 due to their potential to enhance clarity and readability. However, I'm uncertain about the course of action to take if the current staff thread is still ongoing and no decisions have been implemented thus far.

Regarding the thread itself, I share the same confusion as DarkGrath and require further context. As of now, I maintain a neutral stance on the matter.

I actually was told, but that it was heavily contested at the time (I also forgot about it lmao).

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am uncertain about the outcome, but I generally support the fundamental premise of your thread, as it strives for accuracy and consistency.
However, the way in which it is presented may determine whether the staff thread will be continued or not.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What about Rodin mentioning wiping out the entire trinity in a snap?

Forgot about this comment, lmao sorry. Anyways, I’m certain that this is just erasure as well, since in the actual progression of the game, he operates through erasure. Not through some massive blast, or ripping through the entire multiverse all at once, etc. The only reason that this would be considered AP, is that he is stated to be one with the multiverse, and has its power.

 

[DarkGrath]

This thread seems to have unfortunate timing (not blaming the OP, as they might not have been aware of an ongoing staff thread about it).

Staff thread Link: https://vsbattles.com/threads/staff-only-ee-ap-revision.152318/

Existence Erasure standards are definitely highly relevant to this thread. It'd be good to resolve the EE revision before tackling the contentions here.

Basically, he is erasing the universe, in order to steal its Chaotic Energy. This erasure has been cited as obliterating the world, and pulling it into the void. After he’s done that so many times (erasure, and absorption), that destabilized Ginunungagap. He never actually enters Ginnungagap, and just outright erases it, so, yes, environmental destruction.

Interesting. In regard to the bolded text - are you suggesting that Ginunungagap was not directly erased, but rather destabilised as a result of erasing many other things?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Basically, he is erasing the universe, in order to steal its Chaotic Energy. This erasure has been cited as obliterating the world, and pulling it into the void. After he’s done that so many times (erasure, and absorption), that destabilized Ginunungagap. He never actually enters Ginnungagap, and just outright erases it, so, yes, environmental destruction.

Indeed, this appears to be a clear case of environmental erasure, and it does not appear to align with the concept of AP (as presented). However, as I lack familiarity with the specific verse and its cosmology, I have a few specific questions out of curiosity.

This is to ensure that I do not misinterpret or misunderstand anything unintentionally.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Interesting. In regard to the bolded text - are you suggesting that Ginunungagap was not directly erased, but rather destabilised as a result of erasing many other things?

Essentially, yeah. He erased all other universes, and then that space fell, as well. Again, he never actually enters the place and deliberately erases it. It’s like knocking down the foundations of a skyscraper, you don’t actually scale to the total of the building.

Indeed, this appears to be a clear case of environmental erasure, and it does not appear to align with the concept of AP (as presented). However, as I lack familiarity with the specific verse and its cosmology, I have a few specific questions out of curiosity.

Feel free to ask.

 

[DarkGrath]

Essentially, yeah. He erased all other universes, and then that space fell, as well. Again, he never actually enters the place and deliberately accesses it. It’s like knocking down the foundations of a skyscraper, you don’t actually scale to the total of the building.

If this is true, then this is almost positively what we'd consider environmental destruction, regardless of how we treat feats of EE in relation to AP. If Singularity did not directly erase Ginunungagap, but rather used "erasure" on something else and caused a chain reaction that led to the destruction of Ginunungagap, then there'd be no good reason to scale Singularity to the destruction of Ginunungagap. That'd be like having a feat of someone cutting a rope that releases a boulder, and scaling that person's AP to the force of the boulder.

I do need confirmation on this, though. Are there any specific scans or anything of the sort that verify this is how Ginunungagap was destroyed?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Based on the information provided, I have two points of confusion. Firstly, I would like clarification on whether the setting of the scene is explicitly identified as a planet or a universe, as the second scan you provided mentions a “world.”

Additionally, since the speech of the statement is taking place in a specific location, which is potentially on the planet or Earth (although I cannot confirm this), I am interested in understanding the logical reasoning behind categorizing the potency of existence erasure/environmental destruction as a low 1-C structure, while ensuring consistency in indexing.

It is possible that I may have overlooked certain contextual details, which is why I am seeking clarification before firmly establishing my stance on this matter.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Based on the information provided, I have two points of confusion. Firstly, I would like clarification on whether the setting of the scene is explicitly identified as a planet or a universe, as the second scan you provided mentions a “world.”

Universe, the human world is the human universe while the world of chaos is the human multiverse as a whole

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

If this is true, then this is almost positively what we'd consider environmental destruction, regardless of how we treat feats of EE in relation to AP. If Singularity did not directly erase Ginunungagap, but rather used "erasure" on something else and caused a chain reaction that led to the destruction of Ginunungagap, then there'd be no good reason to scale Singularity to the destruction of Ginunungagap. That'd be like having a feat of someone cutting a rope that releases a boulder, and scaling that person's AP to the force of the boulder.

I do need confirmation on this, though. Are there any specific scans or anything of the sort that verify this is how Ginunungagap was destroyed?

Pretty much, yeah.

Here, at 3:00:09, the pace is virtually crumbling, and Viola makes the statement the place is falling apart. There again, in the same video, at 3:48:12, the destabilization has gotten worse, so much so that Bayonetta actually falls through the floor. At no time, not a single character, guidebook, or author states that he voluntarily entered Ginnungagap, and erased it. All his compendium entries state is that he’s solely after the chaotic energy of the multiverse.

Firstly, I would like clarification on whether the setting of the scene is explicitly identified as a planet or a universe, as the second scan you provided mentions a “world.”

Universe, considering the first scan mentions parallel worlds of the multiverse, he second says he’s become one with the universe, and the third, again, mentions the multiverse. Alongside the Japanese script explicitly mentioning universe.

 

[DarkGrath]

Here, at 3:00:09, the pace is virtually crumbling, and Viola makes the statement the place is falling apart. There again, in the same video, at 3:48:12, the destabilization has gotten worse, so much so that Bayonetta actually falls through the floor. At no time, not a single character, guidebook, or author states that he voluntarily entered Ginnungagap, and erased it. All his compendium entries state is that he’s solely after the chaotic energy of the multiverse.

In that case, I agree with the change. I would like to also hear out the opposition (as I know there are some people who have expressed disagreement on this), but all the facts so far are quite clear. If the destablisation of Ginunungagap was a chain reaction from Singularity using erasure on separate entities, then Singularity should not scale to Ginunungagap, and this should be treated as an environmental destruction feat.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Understood. The scan you provided has alleviated my concerns. It appears to be an environmental destruction feat that is unrelated to the staff thread I mentioned earlier.

With this new information (to me at least), my stance on the matter is now clear. I agree with the change, and scaling this via ED.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

In that case, I agree with the change. I would like to also hear out the opposition (as I know there are some people who have expressed disagreement on this), but all the facts so far are quite clear. If the destablisation of Ginunungagap was a chain reaction from Singularity using erasure on separate entities, then Singularity should not scale to Ginunungagap, and this should be treated as an environmental destruction feat.

Understood. The scan you provided has alleviated my concerns. It appears to be an environmental destruction feat that is unrelated to the staff thread I mentioned earlier.

With this new information (to me at least), my stance on the matter is now clear. I agree with the change, and scaling this via ED.

Ive called some staff here to weigh in on this, as the logic for this downgrade is extremely shaky at best and the fact that the OP made this stemming directly from the ongoing upgrade thread makes it even more suspicious

Also this wouldnt be a downgrade, other characters in the series have been confirmed to have the power to directly destroy the verse on the Low 1-C scale, such as Aesir and Right Eye Jubileus

 

[DarkGrath]

Ive called some staff here to weigh in on this, as the logic for this downgrade is extremely shaky at best and the fact that the OP made this stemming directly from the ongoing upgrade thread makes it even more suspicious

Also this wouldnt be a downgrade, other characters in the series have been confirmed to have the power to directly destroy the verse on the Low 1-C scale, such as Aesir and Right Eye Jubileus

If you have contentions, you're free to express them. As I've mentioned, I would like to hear out the opposition on this.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If you have contentions, you're free to express them. As I've mentioned, I would like to hear out the opposition on this.

Yes, other characters in the series have been confirmed to have the power to directly destroy the verse on the Low 1-C scale, such as Aesir and Right Eye Jubileus, whom Singularity and Bayo 3 Bayonetta scale above.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Ive called some staff here to weigh in on this, as the logic for this downgrade is extremely shaky at best and the fact that the OP made this stemming directly from the ongoing upgrade thread makes it even more suspicious

I made the same points in the first thread, by the way, so your suspicion is likely just a product of your own head.

Also this wouldnt be a downgrade, other characters in the series have been confirmed to have the power to directly destroy the verse on the Low 1-C scale, such as Aesir and Right Eye Jubileus

Singularity is confirmed the strongest villain in the series, so, there’s two possibilities:

• the statement is a lie, which brings into question a lot more author statements
• these other villains aren’t Low 1-C, either

I land in the latter option.

In that case, I agree with the change. I would like to also hear out the opposition (as I know there are some people who have expressed disagreement on this), but all the facts so far are quite clear. If the destablisation of Ginunungagap was a chain reaction from Singularity using erasure on separate entities, then Singularity should not scale to Ginunungagap, and this should be treated as an environmental destruction feat.

Understood. The scan you provided has alleviated my concerns. It appears to be an environmental destruction feat that is unrelated to the staff thread I mentioned earlier.

With this new information (to me at least), my stance on the matter is now clear. I agree with the change, and scaling this via ED.

Aye, will add you to both to the tally.

 

[ImmortalDread]

In my assessment, this appears to be a downgrade thread as the character in question is no longer physically classified as low 1-C and now requires the accomplishment of environmental destruction feats in order to attain a higher rating.

While I am not the one to pass judgment on the OP's intentions, if the information provided is indeed accurate, it would be prudent to exercise patience and await the outcome of the ongoing upgrade thread.

Implementing these changes at this time may introduce challenges in managing the implementation process.

 

[Georredannea15]

Well, I was active on the previous thread and I find that logical. It looks like a DB knock.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I made the same points in the first thread, by the way, so your suspicion is likely just a product of your own head.



Singularity is confirmed the strongest villain in the series, so, there’s two possibilities:

• the statement is a lie, which brings into question a lot more author statements
• these other villains aren’t Low 1-C, either

I land in the latter option.

Jubileus who currently Low 1-C also scales to ginn but through affecting the entire trinity, the feat that’s been there for years and a feat that uses no such erasure method.

Singularity would scale to this regardless via The statement of him being the strongest and scaling above OG Bayo

 

[Abu2411]

Singularity is confirmed the strongest villain in the series, so, there’s two possibilities:

• the statement is a lie, which brings into question a lot more author statements
• these other villains aren’t Low 1-C, either

I land in the latter option

I dont see why we should assume the second point, honestly. Singularity doesn't need to perform Low 1-C feats himself to be on that level if he's already stated to be stronger than other Low 1-C characters.

Not seeing him perform Low 1-C feats does not prevent him from being Low 1-C.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Jubileus who currently Low 1-C also scales to ginn but through affecting the entire trinity, the feat that’s been there for years. Singularity would scale to this via The statement of him being the strongest and scaling above OG Bayo

Why does affecting the entire Trinity mean affecting Ginnungagap? Can you elaborate? Singularity is, again, verbatim called the strongest villain in the series. So, is the statement a lie, or is Jubileus not Low 1-C? There is only two possibilities.

I dont see why we should assume the second point, honestly. Singularity doesn't need to perform Low 1-C feats himself to be on that level if he's already stated to be stronger than other Low 1-C characters.

Not seeing him perform Low 1-C feats does not prevent him from being Low 1-C.

This is somewhat of a strawman. It’s not that we don’t see him preform it, it’s that he doesn’t. It only comes through environmental destruction. If he’s stronger than the rest of them, and he needs a chain reaction for a level of that scale, then, it can’t really work for him to scale to other feats that are directly at that level.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Why does affecting the entire Trinity mean affecting Ginnungagap? Can you elaborate? Singularity is, again, verbatim called the strongest villain in the series. So, is the statement a lie, or is Jubileus not Low 1-C? There is only two possibilities.

The Trinity refers to the verses cosmology in its entirety, why would this not effect Ginnungagap?