Classroom Of The Elite - Speed and AP upgrade

[XxZetsuxX]

Thanks to @Zefra3011 for volunteering to calculate this:

Classroom Of The Elite: FTS stuff

vsbattles.fandom.com

This will upgrade the verse by a lot and will upgrade many characters, both in Attack Potency and Durability, and speed. This will be a relatively simple thread, as it only concerns scaling.

Spoiler: GUIDE FOR SCALING CHAINS

Guide for comparisons in scaling chain:

• "<" indicates superiority for the character written next to the character written before. The number of "<"s can indicate different types of superiority. "<" indicates superiority, "<<" indicates the character being much superior, and "<<<" indicates the character being massively superior.
• "<?" and "<<?" would indicate at least much superiority (but can be higher) and at least massive superiority (but can be higher) respectively.
• "?" indicates that no real comparison can be made between characters upon the current information provided in the story.

Attack Potency:
The following scaling chain can be employed in scaling of the characters:

1.20299186865 MJ < Ichika Amasawa (Did the feat very casually) < Tsukishiro Tokinari <= Shiba Katsunori < (likely "?") Takuya Yagami << Yuki <? Shiro ? Current Ayanokouji <? Kid Ayanokouji <<? Prime Ayanokouji

Spoiler: REASONINGS

• Tsukishiro Tokinari will be superior to Ichika Amasawa due to the fact that Ichika herself said that if she attacked Shiba and turned him away for one, he could come back with twice as hard later, and Ayanokouji himself implied that Tsukishiro was only slightly inferior to Shiba (explained in the next point).
• Shiba Katsuonori is slightly superior (so "<=") to Tsukishiro Tokinari, as Ayanokouji himself said it.
• Takuya is superior to both Tsukishiro Tokinari and Shiba Katsunori due to a simple reason. Tsukishiro had to plan to take on Ayanokouji with two people, while Takuya himself was said to take Ayanokouji (but both of them were proved wrong), but this implies Takuya's higher capabilities. And to be fair, this is actually very debatable, so we can just have Takuya be described as much superior to Ichika.
• Yuki is superior to everyone before due to belonging to the 4th generation, which had stricter curriculum, and she had passed everything which Takuya did and she was also one of the final survivors in the White Room.
• Shiro is superior to Yuki because while he belonged to the same generation, he had better results than her.
• Current Ayanokouji and Shiro, for now cannot be compared. Though current Ayanokouji would take if a comparison were to happen, as he has much more feats and Shiro basically scales through narratives.
• Kid Ayanokouji is superior to current Ayanokouji (I know this take sounds absurd, but many people have started to accept it). Current Ayanokouji was breaking down in cold sweat while fighting two characters (Tsukishiro and Shiba) who could engage in a rough battle and Kid Ayanokouji was without any kind of difficulties, taking on 6 fighters. These 6 fighters were brought by the White Room instructors in Volume 0, and Kid Ayanokouji had already defeated all of the instructors in the White Room. Someone can debate that a single or lesser than 6 White Room instructors would equalize 6 of them, but it isn't actually debatable, considering that nothing was stopping White Room instructors from grouping together on Ayanokouji, so it is better to assume that they already had, and it is clear that the fight with the 6 of them was basically for training purposes. (Scans)
• Prime Ayanokouji, without a debate is much superior to everyone before, he passed beyond the Beta Curriculum, and he is also the pinnacle of the strength which Ayanokouji could possess.

For attack potency, the characters lower than Ichika should be upgraded to at least 15 kJ (Baseline Wall level) and used in their matchups, considering how Kushida could take on hits from Ichika, and if the difference was really so much, then Kushida would have just died (the current low tier durability is 4.4 kJ, and 1.2 MJ against it would be around 272x of difference, which is enough to kill a person).
So, except for Arisu Sakayanagi, basically all the currently existing profiles can be upgraded to at least baseline Wall level.

Speed:

The scaling chain here changes a bit, Considering 342,338 is very close to supersonic, Takuya who is capable of blitzing Ichika casually would receive the supersonic baseline rating, With Yuki and above upscaling Takuya

So it would be more like this;

342.338 m/s < Ichika Amasawa (Did the feat very casually) < Tsukishiro Tokinari <= Shiba Katsunori < Supersonic Baseline (likely "?") Takuya Yagami (Blitzed Ichika casually) << Yuki <? Shiro ? Current Ayanokouji <? Kid Ayanokouji <<? Prime Ayanokouji

Ayanokouji's Y2V7 statement:
In Year 2 Volume 7, Ayanokouji makes a statement,

Amasawa's fighting abilities, which she had learned in the White Room, were the real deal. Even up against people with formal training like Horikita and Ibuki, or people who learned how to fight on their own out in the real world like Ryuuen, Amasawa would be the clear victor. However, as for the question of whether she could compete with me on equal terms, that wasn't even up for discussion. If my opponent's skill level jumped from five to twenty, or even to thirty, they still weren't anywhere close to a hundred.

- Ayanokouji Kiyotaka, Year 2 Volume 7
Click to expand...

The thing about this line is that it can be used for scaling.

Spoiler: MISCONCEPTIONS + CLEARING THEM

Misconception: The line uses the word "skill" which means the knowledge and techniques used by a fight, so it only refers to level of fighting knowledge Ayanokouji possesses compared to his opponents.

Clearing the misconception:
Syougo Kinugasa, the author of the novel sometimes does use "skill" as a word for abilities. In the paragraph, Ayanokouji talks about Amasawa's abilities, and then uses the word "skill level" instead of just "skills" to actually clear this up. More reasoning:

• The setting: Ayanokouji says this right after blitzing Ichika a couple of times. Blitzing doesn't require knowledge (or techniques) but rather speed and here, Ayanokouji also attacked Ichika and gave her body a definite kind of momentum which made her lose her fighting stance. This would only require Attack Potency and Speed, coupled with proper sense of fighting, but not actual fighting techniques and skills. So, Ayanokouji is likely referring to these two abilities rather than actually his battle techniques and stuff.
• Second mention: As implied before, the skills likely refer to the AP and Speed of Ayanokouji. However, there is a second time this is mentioned as well. In Year 2 Volume 8, Kushida (someone who spectated Ayanokouji). She also refers to that as "Ayanokouji's skills", further proving the point that this scene uses "skill" word for actually combat abilities like AP and Speed.

Usage: We can highball Ichika to a 30 as used in Ayanokouji's statement. Please note that Ayanokouji declared 30 as the highest among his opponents, but we can highball Ichika to a 30, so that Ayanokouji can get the lowest possible AP and Speed upon this statement.

• Attack Potency: Taking Amasawa's current AP as a 30 and Ayanokouji as a 100, we get Ayanokouji's AP as (100/30)*1.20299186865 = 4.0099728955 MJ (Wall level).
• Speed: Taking Amasawa's current speed as a 30 and Ayanokouji as a 100, we get Ayanokouji's speed as (100/30)*342,338 = 1141,126666667 m/s (Supersonic+).

Consistency: Ayanokouji is much more superior to Ichika. He could blitz her without any difficulty, then also attack her and overpower her completely. Ayanokouji also stated he could one shot Shiba who should be superior to Ichika to the point of Takuya mentioning she did a good job not fighting Shiba otherwise he would come back twice as hard. The difference between them is already huge. This makes the statement reliable and also, Ayanokouji has proven many times to be reliable with his insane amount of information analysis. They also trained in the same facility of White Room, the only thing was that Ichika trained at the level 4 while Ayanokouji trained in level 10, and also did a separate and much harder curriculum in the White Room. The White Room also stated that the 6th generation and 7th generation attempted the level 5 and 6 and they were stated to have been obliterated further showing how insane the level 10 really is, With the Beta Curriculum stated to be in a different dimension compared to the level 10

(This would scale to all the versions of Ayanokouji, and with an "At least [Tier], higher" for both Attack Potency and Speed to employ the Ichika highball done to lowball Ayanokouji. This should also be added as a note in Ayanokouji's profile, with the thread mentioned for its explanation.)

Staff Agreements	Staff Disagreements	Staff Neutral
-	-	-

 

[ODMvZfr]

This will be a huge upgrade ngl. Also there's Kushida who tanks Ichika's attack. Who can she scale her durability to?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

This will be a huge upgrade ngl. Also there's Kushida who tanks Ichika's attack. Who can she scale her durability to?

Low tiers above, Like Suzune, Ibuki etc etc

 

[ODMvZfr]

Low tiers above, Like Suzune, Ibuki etc etc

Yeah my dream is true. Koji>Mikey fr fr.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Yeah my dream is true. Koji>Mikey fr fr.

XD

 

[RoggerReggor]

I agree with the thread.

This will be a huge upgrade ngl. Also there's Kushida who tanks Ichika's attack. Who can she scale her durability to?

I doubt that Kushida would scale to this for her durability, since she felt a throbbing pain and a sensation of blood hemorrhaging under her skin, which would require Ichika to actually have an AP which is higher than Kushida's durability, and the energy equal to Kushida's durability would bypass her durability, and the remaining energy would be basically doing what happened with Kushida (that is, immense pain and sensations).

So, in theory, as Kushida would have just been killed if she didn't have enough durability to withstand the blow, she should scale to at least scale to a part of the energy in joules of Ichika's AP for her durability. But this is also rather a stretch, as plot-induced stupidities do exist. Take for example, Ash Ketchum can survive Pikachu's Thunderbolts, despite him having Wall level+ durability and Pikachu's attacks having Mountain level AP, it is simply due to the fact that the plot doesn't intend to have Ash dead by that time, despite there being billions of energy difference between the AP and durability of the said characters. And at the same time, the attack also breaks down Ash completely. The same might apply for Kushida, the writer might not have decided to kill Kushida. But still, the characters would have Wall level AP and Durability (baseline) just so the massive 100s of times of difference between the low tiers and Ichika doesn't really come into play.

Low tiers above, Like Suzune, Ibuki etc etc

The characters under Ichika should have baseline Wall level AP and Durability (except Arisu, of course), right? I guess that's what is being proposed in the thread...

 

[ODMvZfr]

I agree with the thread.

I doubt that Kushida would scale to this for her durability, since she felt a throbbing pain and a sensation of blood hemorrhaging under her skin, which would require Ichika to actually have an AP which is higher than Kushida's durability, and the energy equal to Kushida's durability would bypass her durability, and the.remaining energy would be basically doing what happened with Kushida (that is, immense pain and sensations).

So, in theory, as Kushida would have just been killed if she didn't have enough durability to withstand the blow, she should scale to at least scale to a part of the energy in joules of Ichika's AP for her durability. But this is also rather a stretch, as plot-induced stupidities do exist. Take for example, Ash Ketchum can survive Pikachu's Thunderbolts, despite him having Wall level+ durability and Pikachu's attacks having Mountain level AP, it is simply due to the fact that the plot doesn't intend to have Ash dead by that time, despite there being billions of energy difference between the AP and durability of the said characters. And at the same time, the attack also breaks down Ash completely. The same might apply for Kushida, the writer might not have decided to kill Kushida. But still, the characters would have Wall level AP and Durability (baseline) just so the massive 100s of times of difference between the low tiers and Ichika doesn't really come into play.

Nah, She'd win.

 

[Emirccano]

By the way, I don't think kid ayanokoji is superior to current ayanokoji. Likewise, I don't think 6 adults is definitely superior to Shiba & Tsuki.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Nah, She'd win.

"If Ichika were to use her full abilities, that would cause me a little trouble."

"But would you lose?"

"Nah, I'd win."

By the way, I don't think kid ayanokoji is superior to current ayanokoji. Likewise, I don't think 6 adults is definitely superior to Shiba & Tsuki.

Tsukishiro and Shiba should individually be comparable to a White Room instructor. Now, kid Ayanokouji beat all of the White Room instructors. This means that Ayanokouji beat people comparable to Tsukishiro and Shiba in the White Room as a kid. These 6 fighters were indirectly implied to be better than White Room instructors, I will list some reasons below:

Ayanokouji has already beaten all the instructors. It is mentioned that the instructors were there to gather and see the fight, they were also in a "hurry" (implying that they actually wanted to see Ayanokouji against a stronger opponent). Now, Ayanokouji mentions that he could not match them with pure physical strength alone, "unlikely previously" (implying that he could use his pure physical strength to overpower his past opponents, which includes other subjects, instructors and brought adversaries). And in just the next line, he mentions that even in an head-on-head fight (basically 1v1), it would be kind of impossible to win any of the match against them out of a 100. This is what Ayanokouji was basically informed and he analyzed. Now, he obviously wasn't attributing it to himself when he said that it was kind of impossible to beat them in even 1v1, so the only possibility there is, is of the Kiyotaka characterized by achievements, his achievements had him in being stronger than all the White Room instructors, so yes, the 6 fighters individually scale above a White Room instructor. The funny thing is that Ayanokouji as a kid took 6 of them, without having a change in his heartbeat, while he was breaking down in cold sweat against two people who should be comparable to the instructors. Though I would say that it might be due to Tsukishiro's overwhelming skills (which are narratively equal to Ayanokouji's).

 

[Emirccano]

"If Ichika were to use her full abilities, that would cause me a little trouble."

"But would you lose?"

"Nah, I'd win."


Tsukishiro and Shiba should individually be comparable to a White Room instructor. Now, kid Ayanokouji beat all of the White Room instructors. This means that Ayanokouji beat people comparable to Tsukishiro and Shiba in the White Room as a kid. These 6 fighters were indirectly implied to be better than White Room instructors, I will list some reasons below:

Ayanokouji has already beaten all the instructors. It is mentioned that the instructors were there to gather and see the fight, they were also in a "hurry" (implying that they actually wanted to see Ayanokouji against a stronger opponent). Now, Ayanokouji mentions that he could not match them with pure physical strength alone, "unlikely previously" (implying that he could use his pure physical strength to overpower his past opponents, which includes other subjects, instructors and brought adversaries). And in just the next line, he mentions that even in an head-on-head fight (basically 1v1), it would be kind of impossible to win any of the match against them out of a 100. This is what Ayanokouji was basically informed and he analyzed. Now, he obviously wasn't attributing it to himself when he said that it was kind of impossible to beat them in even 1v1, so the only possibility there is, is of the Kiyotaka characterized by achievements, his achievements had him in being stronger than all the White Room instructors, so yes, the 6 fighters individually scale above a White Room instructor. The funny thing is that Ayanokouji as a kid took 6 of them, without having a change in his heartbeat, while he was breaking down in cold sweat against two people who should be comparable to the instructors. Though I would say that it might be due to Tsukishiro's overwhelming skills (which are narratively equal to Ayanokouji's).

I think Tsuki and Shiba are much, much stronger than the white room trainers. Additionally, Ayano had gone through a special exam that lasted 2 weeks without fighting Tsuki and Shiba.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I think Tsuki and Shiba are much, much stronger than the white room trainers.

Uh, no? Tsukishiro and Shiba were involved in the training of the fifth generation, Shiba is even stated to be fighting the fifth gen subjects when they were kids. They are basically equal to instructors in narratives.

Additionally, Ayano had gone through a special exam that lasted 2 weeks without fighting Tsuki and Shiba.

That's a great point ngl, but Ayanokouji hadn't come closer to actually losing his stamina in that time, so this doesn't make the situation any good for Tsukishiro and Shiba lol.

 

[Emirccano]

They are basically equal to instructors in narratives

oh no, while ayano had never praised the white room instructors, when he fought with tsuki and shiba, he couldn't help but praise them (yes, ayano normally likes to praise, but this was not like that).

 

[Emirccano]

That's a great point ngl, but Ayanokouji hadn't come closer to actually losing his stamina in that time, so this doesn't make the situation any good for Tsukishiro and Shiba lol.

he must have lost a little bit compared to before the exam.

 

[RoggerReggor]

oh no, while ayano had never praised the white room instructors, when he fought with tsuki and shiba, he couldn't help but praise them (yes, ayano normally likes to praise, but this was not like that).

He praised even Ryuuen, Manabu, but that doesn't make them better than the instructors.

he must have lost a little bit compared to before the exam.

Yeah, but that hardly affects the fight.

 

[Emirccano]

He praised even Ryuuen, Manabu, but that doesn't make them better than the instructors.

because he judged ryuuen and manabu by normal standards and praised them accordingly. But even though he knew Tsuki and shiba were already pretty strong, he praised them even more. He even had very high praise, such as putting shiba on par with him as an AP (yes, even though he wasn't, he stated how powerful they were)

 

[Emirccano]

Compared to Tsuki and Shiba, after a while, Ayano didn't even have any difficulties against the white room trainers, and even started to not see them as rivals. It is quite wrong to equate Tsukishiro and Shiba with white room instructors.

 

[Dinozxd]

Don't have anything to say about the scaling chain and the multiplier. But the calculation is weird...

The narrator of this scene is Kushida and the scans specifically say that the sounds "came" later which just means she fell faster than she could procces the sound of her getting hit (humans procces sound at 9 miliseconds on average), not actually her falling down faster than sound as there's no reason to assume Kushida would state something like: "Oh yeah, Ichika punched me so fast I fell down faster than sound." as humans don't process sound at 343 m/s.

Also for KE to be valid we need to know that there was some sort of damage on the ground which the feat doesn’t present, you also can’t say lifting 50 kgs requires superhuman strength since it just requires Average Human LS.

I'll also add that Zefra assumed that she heard the punch once she was on the ground when that isn't really the case. She states she hears the punch later (which again, is just a blitz of her auditory stimuli) but that doesn't mean she heard it when she was on the ground.

 

[Zefra3011]

The narrator of this scene is Kushida and the scans specifically say that the sounds "came" later which just means she fell faster than she could procces the sound of her getting hit (humans procces sound at 9 miliseconds on average), not actually her falling down faster than sound

"Came" and "Process" have very different definitions and what's is wrote isn't even a figure of speech as no one says that just because we have a time frame for processing auditory stimulus unlike, for example, "X made a lighting fast dash" that can be used to mean something else like "X made a fast dash" and is popular to say it that way. If the meaning behind her words was the one you pointed I don't see why she doesn't do it every time she hears something, the fact she points it out only in this specific scene is because it's something that only happened here, otherwise she would go around saying stuff like "sound came later as Ayanokouji explained his plan to me" since she needs time to process his words; the situation I used as example is the same as how yoou interpret the scene of the feat, if she, as narrator, has the need to point out herself processing auditory stimulus in 9ms as "sound coming later" she would do it many times as it's something that should happen every time she hears something, the fact she only does it in this scene is because it only happens in this context so it's unlikely it's something that happens every time she process sound, that's why I believe my conclusion and interpretation of the feat is better.

as there's no reason to assume Kushida would state something like: "Oh yeah, Ichika punched me so fast I fell down faster than sound."

Instead, contrary of what you are claiming, since it's something that only happened now she, as narrator, had the need to point it out.

as humans don't process sound at 343 m/s.

Yeah, processing speed should be wrote in seconds and not m/s, I agree.

Also for KE to be valid we need to know that there was some sort of damage on the ground which the feat doesn’t present,

Can you point out where in our standards we need to show craters to validate KE?

you also can’t say lifting 50 kgs requires superhuman strength since it just requires Average Human LS.

I never claimed she was lifting or carrying her so I have no idea what you are talking about, you are also talking about LS when here we are talking about AP.

I'll also add that Zefra assumed that she heard the punch once she was on the ground when that isn't really the case. She states she hears the punch later (which again, is just a blitz of her auditory stimuli) but that doesn't mean she heard it when she was on the ground.

I already explained in the blog why she was down faster than the sound could reach her and yet you accuse me that I assumed it, did you read it?

 

[Dinozxd]

"Came" and "Process" have very different definitions and what's is wrote isn't even a figure of speech as no one says that just because we have a time frame for processing auditory stimulus unlike, for example, "X made a lighting fast dash" that can be used to mean something else like "X made a fast dash" and is popular to say it that way.

"Sound of the slap came later" can be interpreted as "I heard the sound of the slap later" which literally comes down to what I'm saying. Kushida outspeeding the actual sound of the hit would be an unnecesary highball as there's nothing else suggesting that Kushida outsped sound.

If the meaning behind her words was the one you pointed I don't see why she doesn't do it every time she hears something, the fact she points it out only in this specific scene is because it's something that only happened here, otherwise she would go around saying stuff like "sound came later as Ayanokouji explained his plan to me" since she needs time to process his words;

The "procession" you mean here isn't the same as I meant above. 9 miliseconds is the time needed for an audiotary stimuli to reach the brain (I might've messed up with the typing in my original comment so sorry about that) where the "procession" you mean would literally require for Kushida's brain to already pick up the stimuli Ayanokouji made.

the situation I used as example is the same as how yoou interpret the scene of the feat, if she, as narrator, has the need to point out herself processing auditory stimulus in 9ms as "sound coming later" she would do it many times as it's something that should happen every time she hears something, the fact she only does it in this scene is because it only happens in this context so it's unlikely it's something that happens every time she process sound, that's why I believe my conclusion and interpretation of the feat is better.

I replied to this above I think.

Can you point out where in our standards we need to show craters to validate KE?

Well, Kushida falls down on the soil/dirt ground with 1.2 MJ KE. It would be more than enough to make a big crater on the ground if you think about it.

I never claimed she was lifting or carrying her so I have no idea what you are talking about, you are also talking about LS when here we are talking about AP.

Ehh, I got confused ig. Mb.

I already explained in the blog why she was down faster than the sound could reach her and yet you accuse me that I assumed it, did you read it?

So Kushida (the girl who got punched) could perceive there was a delay between her vision getting distorted and her being on the ground due to the attack she recieved and the sound of the punch hitting her cheek as she says "I felt my vision get all distorted and fussy. The sound of my cheek getting punched came later."; we know she was on the ground before the sound of her cheek getting hit reched her because she didn't realize she was falling until she was actually on the ground, she didn't even realized she got punched since she says "Before I knew it I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky"

Lining up the sentences literally gets us the interpretation of; Ichika punches Kushida - Kushida's vision distorts - Kushida hears the sound of the slap - Kushida falls on the ground.

"Before I knew it" just refers to her not being able to react/realize she got hit which is normal as Ichika pretty much blitzes her here. She herself states that she hears the sound before she falls on the ground.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can you point out where in our standards we need to show craters to validate KE?

Here:

• There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.
  • For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.

Additionally the calc is assuming that the character was accelerated to the speed of sound, rather than arm of the person punching her was moving at the speed of sound. Which would move the feat down to 194kj.

Overall I'm not sure if this is actually a supersonic punch feat and not just the character being dazed like a normal person after being hit.

 

[Qawsedf234]

. It would be more than enough to make a big crater on the ground if you think about it.

Not really. 1 megajoule is like, 230 grams of TNT. That's not that big. A hand grenade possess roughly that much energy and they just don't make a big crater. You don't get a person sized crater until like, double or triple digit megajoules.

 

[Zefra3011]

"Sound of the slap came later" can be interpreted as "I heard the sound of the slap later" which literally comes down to what I'm saying. Kushida outspeeding the actual sound of the hit would be an unnecesary highball as there's nothing else suggesting that Kushida outsped sound.

If she points this out it means she hears it later than how fast she normally hear sounds right? Otherwise it would be unnecessary stupid for her to say it; narrators don't say obvious things while they explain the scene, they point out what's important for it or what's different than usual.

The "procession" you mean here isn't the same as I meant above. 9 miliseconds is the time needed for an audiotary stimuli to reach the brain (I might've messed up with the typing in my original comment so sorry about that) where the "procession" you mean would literally require for Kushida's brain to already pick up the stimuli Ayanokouji made.

I replied to this above I think.

And in the example I made the sound of his word don't have to go to the brain? It's the exact same thing unless sounds work differently now.

Well, Kushida falls down on the soil/dirt ground with 1.2 MJ KE. It would be more than enough to make a big crater on the ground if you think about it.

That's not what I asked for.

Lining up the sentences literally gets us the interpretation of; Ichika punches Kushida - Kushida's vision distorts - Kushida hears the sound of the slap - Kushida falls on the ground.

Events chains don't necessary follow how they are presented in the wrote sentence, she did realize a delay in the sound but didn't realize she was falling so it's stupid to think she could process what happened during her fall (if she did hear the sound while falling) since it would also mean she was technically be able to say "I'm falling" but she only realized what happened when she was on the ground looking at the sky; I already pointed out everything in the blog.

"Before I knew it" just refers to her not being able to react/realize she got hit which is normal as Ichika pretty much blitzes her here. She herself states that she hears the sound before she falls on the ground.

I believe this is grammatically incorrect, "it" is referring at her being on the ground and not at the punch, "Before I knew it, I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky" can be paraphrased as "before I knew I was on the ground, I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky" or "before I knew I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky, I was looking at the cloudy, overcast sky" which means she didn't realize anything until it was all done, the sentences are separated and she wasn't talking about the punch in that one.
Like if you want to go this way I can say that "it" can be this "Before I knew the sound of the cheek getting punched came later, I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky"
Also at worst, if she could hear the sound while she was falling it would mean she initially could outspeed sound but after a while she no longer could since sound could reach her.

Here:

oh, that, thanks.

But since it's a novel we don't have visuals of what happens other than what's directly stated so we can't 100% know if there was or there wasn't a crater, all we can base our calcs and scales is what we have, I believe even assuming the ground was completely unchanged while the scene suggests a very strong hit isn't correct.

Additionally the calc is assuming that the character was accelerated to the speed of sound, rather than arm of the person punching her was moving at the speed of sound. Which would move the feat down to 194kj.

I take the speed of the punch from how fast Kushida falls.

Overall I'm not sure if this is actually a supersonic punch feat and not just the character being dazed like a normal person after being hit.

I'm not sure if a person being hit would hear sound with a delay just because she was dazed as it means it also would happen IRL too, at most a dazed person wouldn't notice/pay attention to the sound.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But since it's a novel we don't have visuals of what happens other than what's directly stated so we can't 100% know if there was or there wasn't a crater, all we can base our calcs and scales is what we have, I believe even assuming the ground was completely unchanged while the scene suggests a very strong hit isn't correct.

I mean if the character punched at supersonic speeds in the same universe that they use batons as weapons you'd think they comment on that as well.

I'm not sure if a person being hit would hear sound with a delay just because she was dazed as it means it also would happen IRL too, at most a dazed person wouldn't notice/pay attention to the sound.

Its a delay in reactions. Its why most people are stunned after being struck by something they didn't expect or a particularly hard blow.

 

[Dinozxd]

If she points this out it means she hears it later than how fast she normally hear sounds right?

She could've maybe heard the sound later because she just took the hardest punch of her life?

And in the example I made the sound of his word don't have to go to the brain? It's the exact same thing unless sounds work differently now.

It has to go to the brain for her to process it...

That's not what I asked for.

Well, Mr. Qawsedf already answered this ig.

Events chains don't necessary follow how they are presented in the wrote sentence, she did realize a delay in the sound but didn't realize she was falling so it's stupid to think she could process what happened during her fall (if she did hear the sound while falling) since it would also mean she was technically be able to say "I'm falling" but she only realized what happened when she was on the ground looking at the sky; I already pointed out everything in the blog.

She could've just fallen faster than she could react to the sound?

I believe this is grammatically incorrect, "it" is referring at her being on the ground and not at the punch, "Before I knew it, I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky" can be paraphrased as "before I knew I was on the ground, I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky" or "before I knew I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky, I was looking at the cloudy, overcast sky" which means she didn't realize anything until it was all done, the sentences are separated and she wasn't talking about the punch in that one.

You misunderstood that actually. I just meant that she got hit and fell faster than she could react...

Also at worst, if she could hear the sound while she was falling it would mean she initially could outspeed sound but after a while she no longer could since sound could reach her.

It could also be how she couldn't hear the sound of the slap initially and could after because she didn't actually outspeed the sound, she just couldn't react to it or was just too stunned to hear it which are both understandable interpretations.

But since it's a novel we don't have visuals of what happens other than what's directly stated so we can't 100% know if there was or there wasn't a crater, all we can base our calcs and scales is what we have, I believe even assuming the ground was completely unchanged while the scene suggests a very strong hit isn't correct.

Well the difference would be how you would have the burden to prove that there was enviromental destruction, when you can't because there's nothing suggesting so.

 

[Dinozxd]

Not really. 1 megajoule is like, 230 grams of TNT. That's not that big. A hand grenade possess roughly that much energy and they just don't make a big crater. You don't get a person sized crater until like, double or triple digit megajoules.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[RoggerReggor]

because he judged ryuuen and manabu by normal standards and praised them accordingly. But even though he knew Tsuki and shiba were already pretty strong, he praised them even more. He even had very high praise, such as putting shiba on par with him as an AP (yes, even though he wasn't, he stated how powerful they were)

Praising isn't a good example for proving superiority.

 

[RoggerReggor]

"Sound of the slap came later" can be interpreted as "I heard the sound of the slap later" which literally comes down to what I'm saying. Kushida outspeeding the actual sound of the hit would be an unnecesary highball as there's nothing else suggesting that Kushida outsped sound.

I guess this is physically wrong.

While it may be tempting to use a timeframe upon a Mach 1 speed, or a 9 ms timeframe (which is timeframe taken by brain to process auditory stimuli), the scene itself makes it pretty weird ngl.

The first thing which happens is that Kushida herself said it:

Before I knew it, I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky

Which means that the punch was faster than the time for her to realize that she was looking up at the overcast sky.

If we judge just by the placement of the scenes, it will mean that her FOV changed faster than her visual perception, but at the same time, she processed the sound before this happened, which would be contradictory as we know that auditory processing < visual perception (and by a lot), because while auditory processing can range to a few milliseconds (you gave one for 0.009 s), visual perception can actually go to the levels of 0.002 s (it was even accepted in the wiki for one time), and it is faster than the timeframe employed by Zefra.

So, the placement would be,
Distortion of vision due to sudden FOV change -> Appearance of sound -> Visual perception (loading of the new FOV), if we were to go strictly by the placement.

Which would make it illogical, so I believe that "came" (for the sound) is used here as narrator freedom, which is actually a thing, like females from Lookism could for once describe fights even when the said characters blitz character far superior than them. The same thing happens with some Isekai novels where humans who get blitzed by low tiers (and that's a perception blitz) can somehow gap the speeds of actual FTL characters. Narrator freedom is the description given by the narrator of the scene despite the narrator logically being able to never actually do it in reality due to their incapabilities.

Kushida has shown capacities to do such things, while she failed to realize Ichika's movements, she could still describe Ayanokouji's superiority to Ichika, even though he actually blitzed Ichika (who again, blitzes Kushida as we are discussing).

She pretty much actually described it as "came", which is more synonymous with the sound coming to her position rather than her processing the entire sound and then realizing its speed. I believe you get me.

 

[Dinozxd]

visual perception can actually go to the levels of 0.002 s (it was even accepted in the wiki for one time), and it is faster than the timeframe employed by Zefra.

Well you based your entire argument on something that's rejected. My source actually says that audiotary stimuli reaches the brain before a visually stimuli (a visual stimuli takes 30 ms on average to reach the brain where an audiotary one takes 9 ms), which I think supports my interpretation more.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Well you based your entire argument on something that's rejected. My source actually says that audiotary stimuli reaches the brain before a visually stimuli (a visual stimuli takes 30 ms on average to reach the brain where an audiotary one takes 9 ms), which I think supports my interpretation more.

Tbh ditch what I said. My arguments stemmed from the fact that I was confused why were we using reactions. But how about I take you up on that? I mean, I agree with you, and I think we can actually improve the calculation.

The research you linked is from 2015. After spending about 10 minutes reading that, it can be said that the research uses the speed of impulses to calculate the timeframe.

Significantly newer research from 2021 (and that too, done by Aalto University) experimentally determines the time taken (as 0.0005 s) by the brain to process delays between frequency of sound and such stimuli. There can be a linear relation between Kushida's "being processed" stimuli and the sound. One more thing is that a person doesn't need to interpret smacks.

Reaction can be delayed, but the thing is that there is no need for reactions here. Brain processing doesn't depend on the reaction scenario. Reacting is not even applicable here; all she needs to do is process the gap between the stimuli and then actually narrate the scene to the reader.

So, we can add the timeframe from the source to Zefra's calculated timeframe,

Spoiler: calc (might be wrong)

Newer timeframe = 0.00639+0.0005 = 0.00689 s

Speed of Kushida's fall = 1.36276/0.00689 = 197.788098694 m/s

Ichika's Attack Potency = 0.5*52.9*197.788098694*197.788098694 = 1.034727491 MJ

Ichika's Speed = 2.18754/0.00689 = 317.494920174 m/s

So yeah, it significantly downgrades the AP by almost 200 kilojoules, and both the speeds as well.

About the crater on the ground, the thing is, COTE is a novel, so there might actually be a small sized crater and they might never include it in the writing of the novel.

 

[Dinozxd]

reply

Well I changed my mind about the scene after Qawsedf's reply. To me this just looks like Kushida getting dazed from the hit and not being able to process stuff for a timeframe as it's not like Kushida free fell and outsped sound here, she took a hit from a character that scales much higher than her. I don't think this is about outspeeding or percieving sound.

 

[Zefra3011]

I mean if the character punched at supersonic speeds in the same universe that they use batons as weapons you'd think they comment on that as well.

Aight, so we literally have a single visual about this fight, which is this one:

As I understood from your points a 1MJ shouldn't make a big crater and all I can do with this visual is try to prove that the ground wasn't unchanged.
We know Kushida fell on her back as she stated she was looking directly at the sky ("I was looking up at the cloudy, overcast sky"), tho in the visual we can see her clothes are dirty also on the front, we see dirty stains on her chest and her sleeves, we even see some dirt on her forehead, which means that in the moment she touched the ground the dirt flew in air high enough to land on the parts I mentioned above; With this I don't want to prove that on the ground there is a Building level worth crater but that at least we know the ground wasn't unchanged and that the dirt flew away for some degree which suggest a strong hit at least. I believe IRL you can't really make something like this happen.

Its a delay in reactions. Its why most people are stunned after being struck by something they didn't expect or a particularly hard blow.

I understand your point and I get that the "the sound came later" part might be controversial but based on the scan we can at least say that Kushida didn't realize she got punched until she touched the ground as she directly say "I felt my vision get all distorted and fuzzy"without mentioning a punch and only after she has time to think she ask herself if she got hit by a punch meaning she isn't even sure of what happened, she even says "Before I knew it I was looking at the sky".
If the context was just her getting stunned by a punch and due to that she fell down I don't understand why she emphasized so much about how everything happened so fast while if the whole context was just her getting stunned she would have fall down at reasonable speed (like at least in half a second or something less) which should give you enough time to at least realize that you are falling but she didn't realized a single thing until she was on the ground; so I believe it's unlikely the entire context is just Kushida getting hit hard so she gets stunned and therefore falls down.

 

[Vzearr]

Considering that the series describes things like dents in elevators, I'd be surprised if they didn't mention a 1 meter large hole in the ground (which would be the bare minimum size that the hole would need to be using the high end pulverisation value for dirt). Having dirt on your upper chest area doesn't also validate kinetic energy, is classroom of the elite even consistent with kinetic energy feats? I don't think so.

 

[Qawsedf234]

dirt flew away for some degree which suggest a strong hit at least

Sure, but that can be accomplished by the other person's arm travelling a supersonic velocity and not the person hit. In addition to the feat not being noted as fast and being over 100x the current scaled rating.

the context was just her getting stunned by a punch and due to that she fell down I don't understand why she emphasized so much about how everything happened so fast while if the whole context was just her getting stunned she would have fall down at reasonable speed (like at least in half a second or something less) which should give you enough time to at least realize that you are falling but she didn't realized a single thing until she was on the ground;

People in car wrecks remember nothing until after the wreck is over due to force trauma. Being dazed after being hit isn't a supporting piece of evidence for their body moving at mach 1 velocities.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Well I changed my mind about the scene after Qawsedf's reply. To me this just looks like Kushida getting dazed from the hit and not being able to process stuff for a timeframe as it's not like Kushida free fell and outsped sound here, she took a hit from a character that scales much higher than her. I don't think this is about outspeeding or percieving sound.

She isn't dazed, she was literally alerted that she was going to get punched.
She was literally looking out for a punch, "Punch?" basically, goes to show that.

Getting dazed delays your reaction, or sometimes, you might not notice sounds at all.

I remember the older debate with Agnaa where he basically put up the same points, but his points were different, his points were that Kushida was dazed so she didn't notice the sound, and there, we were debating about a completely different feat, which is this:

Here, she didn't even realize that there was a sound, so one can actually argue at least here that she was "dazed" so she would actually fail to sense the sound, but in the scene which we are currently discussing, Kushida looks 100% active (she's even made aware that she's going to get punched), and she basically tells the reader about her sensing the sound and the other information, which is actually the character narration, character narrations are on-the-spot feelings of the characters, without them being forgetful (because they describe the words of each and every character too accurately, and otherwise they would all have photographic memories lol).

People in car wrecks remember nothing until after the wreck is over due to force trauma. Being dazed after being hit isn't a supporting piece of evidence for their body moving at mach 1 velocities.

How is this even related to what happened in the feat?

Being dazed and not remembering is not what is happening here, she is there to sense the sounds (brain does link the senses) and tell the reader. I asked and tried to get informed about how the same thing was happening with Agnaa's earlier debate (as mentioned in the reply earlier), but there, she didn't even realize that there was a sound.

Kushida was also heavily active in these scenes, she herself tried to block one of the slower hits done by Ichika:

(this happened before the currently-being-discussed feat)

(this happened after the currently-being-discussed feat)

So, it doesn't make sense for her to get alerted that she was going to get punched, and then not look out for that. I think you should review this decision, here, she says that there was a delay in sound (this kind of also goes to show that her senses are active), not that she was actually able to just never notice the sound or forget the memory of the sound (what would actually happen when a person is in a daze).

One more thing is that Kushida is in a stressed situation where she actually is trying to fight back. In situations of fight, body releases adrenaline, which, in actuality makes your senses sharper:

source: Harvard University

source: Healthline

 

[RoggerReggor]

Considering that the series describes things like dents in elevators, I'd be surprised if they didn't mention a 1 meter large hole in the ground (which would be the bare minimum size that the hole would need to be using the high end pulverisation value for dirt).

Again, never use this. The series mentioning a single thing like a dent in an elevator doesn't mean they should mention everything. It is the author's freedom on which scenes he should pen some detailed information and where he doesn't feel like it's necessary.

And 1 MJ, as Qawsed mentioned, is a significantly lower amount of energy to actually create that big of a crater.

Having dirt on your upper chest area doesn't also validate kinetic energy, is classroom of the elite even consistent with kinetic energy feats? I don't think so.

She got punched on her face, she landed on her back, and the thing is, Zefra made a good point about dirt getting splashed high enough to go on her clothes, as it is stupid if she landed on her back and she has dirt on her front. Either way, I don't think this is heavily necessary for the KE feats as well.

Edit: The detailing also depends upon the character doing the narration. Take Ayanokouji, for example, he is the type of guy who describes things such as expiry dates of products, distortion of someone's glasses, clothes of a person, the sceneries, people themselves, etc. but at the same time, other characters might not be reliable for the details in the narration, simply because Ayanokouji kind of just has an "always observing the surroundings to its utmost detail" hax, while other characters don't even come close to his degree of observations.

 

[Vzearr]

1 megajoule is more then enough to make a hole 1 meter large in dirt. Anyway, do you have any reason as to why Kinetic Energy would be valid? I didn't see any reasoning in the calc.

Dirt being on her shirt isn't validation for Kinetic Energy as 1. You wouldn't need anywhere close to 1 megajoule of force for dirt to move upwards and onto your shirt, and 2. Didn't they have a fight? There are a plethora of ways dirt could have gotten on her shirt.

 

[RoggerReggor]

1 megajoule is more then enough to make a hole 1 meter large in dirt. Anyway, do you have any reason as to why Kinetic Energy would be valid? I didn't see any reasoning in the calc.

No.

Watch this video, they drop a 1-ton ball from 100s of meters, which created this crater:

The energy should be almost about 980000 J, which is 980 kJ, but that itself doesn't create a big crater on its own. Sad thing but truth.

In fact, the ground here is rocky, and we don't even know what type of ground both of them were fighting in. If they are fighting in a sandy ground, then absorption of impact would be done rather than them leaving an outright crater. Heck, even normal ground takes a huge amount of impact.

You can even see MrBeast's current videos, where he drops very heavy objects from a huge height, but the impact on the ground isn't a lot, even though calculation-wise, it should.

Dirt being on her shirt isn't validation for Kinetic Energy as 1. You wouldn't need anywhere close to 1 megajoule of force for dirt to move upwards and onto your shirt,

Yeah, the only thing is that you would need less than that.

and 2. Didn't they have a fight? There are a plethora of ways dirt could have gotten on her shirt.

No, the sad part is that Kushida thought that she was in a fight, but it wasn't fight but bullying, Kushida couldn't protect herself, she couldn't do any single thing, in fact, you can read the Year 2 Volume 3 Chapter 9, all what happened was this.

 

[Vzearr]

You didn't respond to what makes Kinetic Energy valid here. You're on the positive.

 

[RoggerReggor]

You didn't respond to what makes Kinetic Energy valid here. You're on the positive.

Why would Kinetic Energy be invalid in the first place?

 

[Vzearr]

Why would Kinetic Energy be invalid in the first place?

Why would it be valid? You're on a positive claim and haven't proven why it's valid, I'm questioning the validity of Kinetic Energy for this feat, I don't have to prove its invalid, this is just shifting the burden of proof fallacy.