Classroom Of The Elite - Speed and AP upgrade

[Dinozxd]

And Reggor proposed a new one which he didn't reject

When?

 

[Vzearr]

Ichika isn't comparable to Kouenji, she's better even concrete narrative-wise, but if we go by currently accepted calcs, then Kouenji is above her. The thing is, Kouenji doesn't have concrete narratives to put him above Ichika, but again, he has none which suggest that he cannot be above Ichika, so if he gets a feat better than her, she wouldn't scale to his feat and be below him, but let's say she gets a better feat than him, then Kouenji wouldn't scale to her. That's why I said scaling Kouenji is complicated. Now, saying what is a narrative has also been somehow controversial, some people regard implications of Ayanokouji taking someone as risky as narrative, but by that logic, most of the heavily hyped characters would somehow be superior to even Ayanokouji himself, in my view, a narrative of implication can be taken as concrete, but not when it has no basis behind it. Kouenji is said to be a bigger threat than Takuya, but that's as a class pawn, which includes both physical and mental things, in which Kouenji is equally talented.

There's even a theory in COTE which says that Kouenji is from Kijima's faction in training, which is also a training program like White Room, but again, it is just a theory.

Okay then, this feat would definitely be inconsistent with the current scaling.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Okay then, this feat would definitely be inconsistent with the current scaling.

It isn't. Kouenji only has feats (plus concrete narratives) to go above Ichika (in physical strength).

When?

I did? Or you didn't read it correctly?

What I said was that Kushida just needs to sense the sound and tell the reader, while until your final message, you were still set on "reactions" thing? I will try to say this for one last time to you, when you outspeed someone's perception, you outspeed the speed at which they process real-world images, and when you outspeed their reactions, you outspeed the speed at which they react to attacks.

Another detail which I have come to know is that the brain naturally links the senses to avoid conscious noticing of delay between the senses, so delaying in that scenario would pretty much equal delaying in real world terms.

 

[Vzearr]

It isn't. Kouenji only has feats (plus concrete narratives) to go above Ichika (in physical strength).

Okay? That doesn't change the fact that there is a 300x difference between the two attack potency feats? It goes against our Kinetic Energy standards.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Okay? That doesn't change the fact that there is a 300x difference between the two attack potency feats? It goes against our Kinetic Energy standards.

This is just bad reasoning; you are ignoring the fact that characters in the low tiers have feats of being able to put large dents into elevator walls and also that the feats can easily scale very high, it doesn't get into the "outliers" range. Inconsistencies arise due to anti-feats (like a character being unable to do anything in the range which was established for them earlier), not high differences between two attack potency feats, note that.

 

[Dinozxd]

What I said was that Kushida just needs to sense the sound and tell the reader, while until your final message, you were still set on "reactions" thing? I will try to say this for one last time to you, when you outspeed someone's perception, you outspeed the speed at which they process real-world images, and when you outspeed their reactions, you outspeed the speed at which they react to attacks.

Ehhhh I already made my point many times before and don't see anything here worth changing my mind over, thanks.

 

[MCH2]

@XxZetsuxX I respectfully disagree with some points on your scale chain:

- Shiba vs Tsukishiro: I agree with this, but the statement Ayanokoji made regarding Shiba being a 6 and Tsukishiro being a 4 was explicitly false information (literally the next page). however, Shiba's striking power scales directly to current Ayanokoji and given this is AP explicitly I'd use that instead to put Shiba higher.

- Shiba/Tsukishiro vs Yagami: there's no reason to believe he's better than them, his belief that he could take on Ayanokoji in a direct fight was pure delusion based on the false data he was fed. Ichika 3 volumes later was stunned by the gap between her and Ayanokoji.

for pure AP I'd scale Shiba >= Tsukishiro > Takuya >> Ichika

- Yuki doesn't really scale close to Shiro, and I am not sure it's narratively safe to scale her above 5th gen students. if you run with what Ayanokoji said about students only dropping out in the whiteroom during finals, then she likely dropped out two years before Shiro did (my estimate is 7th year finals, Yuki out. then 3rd dude drops in the 8th's year finals and then Shiro in the 9th). and unlike Shiro, who (Year 2 Volume 0, page 156 onwards):
1) Ayanokoji stated Shiro was still improving every day
2) Shiro stated he's on track to keep at it for 10 years
3) Ayanokoji said he's not an easy opponent like a half-baked adult (aka WR instructors)
Yuki explicitly reached her limit and wasn't able to continue. her scores were constantly decreasing. you can't just scale her around Shiro. personally, I'd straight up omit her or have a large degree of uncertainty with her.

now regarding this feat in particular, I'd be very careful with this one (and the 2 MJ Sudo feat.....). the Uninhabited Island in the exam was roughly 5 km in length, are we really going to say Ayanokoji can cross that in 5 seconds? if we run with that, and then scale Koenji at even a quarter of that, then it makes no sense for Koenji NOT to blow away Nagumo in the island exam by monopolizing all the early bird first place bonuses. when in reality, Nagumo had an edge.


was Ichika blitzing Kushida really faster than Ayanokoji blitzing Ichika? I have doubts.

Attack Potency:
The following scaling chain can be employed in scaling of the characters:

1.20299186865 MJ < Ichika Amasawa (Did the feat very casually) < Tsukishiro Tokinari <= Shiba Katsunori < (likely "?") Takuya Yagami << Yuki <? Shiro ? Current Ayanokouji <? Kid Ayanokouji <<? Prime Ayanokouji

Spoiler: REASONINGS

• Tsukishiro Tokinari will be superior to Ichika Amasawa due to the fact that Ichika herself said that if she attacked Shiba and turned him away for one, he could come back with twice as hard later, and Ayanokouji himself implied that Tsukishiro was only slightly inferior to Shiba (explained in the next point).
• Shiba Katsuonori is slightly superior (so "<=") to Tsukishiro Tokinari, as Ayanokouji himself said it.
• Takuya is superior to both Tsukishiro Tokinari and Shiba Katsunori due to a simple reason. Tsukishiro had to plan to take on Ayanokouji with two people, while Takuya himself was said to take Ayanokouji (but both of them were proved wrong), but this implies Takuya's higher capabilities. And to be fair, this is actually very debatable, so we can just have Takuya be described as much superior to Ichika.
• Yuki is superior to everyone before due to belonging to the 4th generation, which had stricter curriculum, and she had passed everything which Takuya did and she was also one of the final survivors in the White Room.
• Shiro is superior to Yuki because while he belonged to the same generation, he had better results than her.
• Current Ayanokouji and Shiro, for now cannot be compared. Though current Ayanokouji would take if a comparison were to happen, as he has much more feats and Shiro basically scales through narratives.
• Kid Ayanokouji is superior to current Ayanokouji (I know this take sounds absurd, but many people have started to accept it). Current Ayanokouji was breaking down in cold sweat while fighting two characters (Tsukishiro and Shiba) who could engage in a rough battle and Kid Ayanokouji was without any kind of difficulties, taking on 6 fighters. These 6 fighters were brought by the White Room instructors in Volume 0, and Kid Ayanokouji had already defeated all of the instructors in the White Room. Someone can debate that a single or lesser than 6 White Room instructors would equalize 6 of them, but it isn't actually debatable, considering that nothing was stopping White Room instructors from grouping together on Ayanokouji, so it is better to assume that they already had, and it is clear that the fight with the 6 of them was basically for training purposes. (Scans)
• Prime Ayanokouji, without a debate is much superior to everyone before, he passed beyond the Beta Curriculum, and he is also the pinnacle of the strength which Ayanokouji could possess.

 

[RoggerReggor]

@XxZetsuxX I respectfully disagree with some points on your scale chain:

- Shiba vs Tsukishiro: I agree with this, but the statement Ayanokoji made regarding Shiba being a 6 and Tsukishiro being a 4 was explicitly false information (literally the next page). however, Shiba's striking power scales directly to current Ayanokoji and given this is AP explicitly I'd use that instead to put Shiba higher.

I am the one who formatted the scaling chain a lot before, so I forgot to provide with scans. You are right, he did take it back, but this can still be used to back up another thing. I will explain this in imgur.

Also, the information about Ayanokouji = Shiba is highly debatable and maybe even inconsistent, because Ayanokouji was himself saying that they were evenly matched in his chess match with Arisu, but yeah, when Ayanokouji tried to actually think about it and apply it to the match, he was simply starting to stomp Arisu. Ayanokouji does say that his opponents equalize to him, but sometimes, it is just his current level.
Also, I will talk about it in the point later to put this as inconsistent.

- Shiba/Tsukishiro vs Yagami: there's no reason to believe he's better than them, his belief that he could take on Ayanokoji in a direct fight was pure delusion based on the false data he was fed. Ichika 3 volumes later was stunned by the gap between her and Ayanokoji.

Three reasons why not:

• Ichika is stated to actually go against and fight Shiba, to the point of actually driving him away (though yes, it is said that Shiba can and would get her better the next time), but again, the same Ichika is described to be able to do nothing against Takuya. She was at least confident in being able to turn away Shiba for once, but she is basically so afraid of Takuya, that forget about her trying to attack him, she cannot even blink around him.
• Takuya was aware of Tsukishiro-Shiba war, and the danger on the island in the region 12. He knew that they both combined were trying to face Ayanokouji, and he should have deduced as well that who won in that scenario. In fact, Takuya was basically still confident in taking on Ayanokouji, so was Tsukishiro successful in manipulating Takuya to believe the same, which he could never have if Takuya wasn't aware of the fact that he was above Tsukishiro and Shiba.
• Takuya has better feats. He is able to blitz Ichika and is massively faster than her. To say more, Takuya also has more attacking feats (the only thing Tsukishiro and Shiba have would be being equal to Ayanokouji and that statement is debatable).

Also, if Takuya is superior to both Tsukishiro and Shiba, then through narratives, you can establish that Ayanokouji is much superior to both, invalidating the equal AP statement.

for pure AP I'd scale Shiba >= Tsukishiro > Takuya >> Ichika

I personally put Takuya over Shiba and Tsukishiro, and yes, Ichika is correctly scaled.

- Yuki doesn't really scale close to Shiro, and I am not sure it's narratively safe to scale her above 5th gen students. if you run with what Ayanokoji said about students only dropping out in the whiteroom during finals, then she likely dropped out two years before Shiro did (my estimate is 7th year finals, Yuki out. then 3rd dude drops in the 8th's year finals and then Shiro in the 9th). and unlike Shiro, who (Year 2 Volume 0, page 156 onwards):
1) Ayanokoji stated Shiro was still improving every day
2) Shiro stated he's on track to keep at it for 10 years
3) Ayanokoji said he's not an easy opponent like a half-baked adult (aka WR instructors)
Yuki explicitly reached her limit and wasn't able to continue. her scores were constantly decreasing. you can't just scale her around Shiro. personally, I'd straight up omit her or have a large degree of uncertainty with her.

Yes, that's why the "<?" is used. It basically means that a character is superior, but it is not known about how much.

now regarding this feat in particular, I'd be very careful with this one (and the 2 MJ Sudo feat.....). the Uninhabited Island in the exam was roughly 5 km in length, are we really going to say Ayanokoji can cross that in 5 seconds? if we run with that, and then scale Koenji at even a quarter of that, then it makes no sense for Koenji NOT to blow away Nagumo in the island exam by monopolizing all the early bird first place bonuses. when in reality, Nagumo had an edge.

Them not running the entire island in 5 seconds in PIS (Plot-Induced Stupidity). Many verses have it, Naruto has trains, Solo Leveling has cars for hunters to travel from one place to another, Reality Quest (also a Tier 9 verse) literally once had the main character struggling in running and got chased by a bear (it was even described to have 60 mph speed), despite the fact that he was actually performing feats of breaking the sound barrier, etc.

was Ichika blitzing Kushida really faster than Ayanokoji blitzing Ichika? I have doubts.

Ayanokouji blitzing Ichika would of course be faster than Ichika blitzing Kushida, not by numerical values, but through the fact that Ayanokouji basically blitzed Ichika, and even the gap between them is massive.

 

[RoggerReggor]

And yes, you are correct about Yuki dropping out at around 7 years of age, but that's at the least.

When Tabuchi had a meet with Kiyotaka and evaluated him, it was specifically mentioned that he was already seven years old.

Kiyotaka was selecting and storing the necessary memories.
I myself remember vividly dismissing it as a child's fantasy.
After listening to the past seven years of Kiyotaka's life, Tabuchi and the others in front of me were very excited.

Then, when Ayanokouji mentioned the next thing, it had already been many days.

Again and again, I repeated the same day.
Repeated the days of learning that seemed to go on forever.
In a world where there were hardly any breaks, we fourth-generation students continued to repeat the curriculum.
There was nothing more to say.

To conclude, Yuki was indeed in the White Room for at least seven years.

 

[MCH2]

Them not running the entire island in 5 seconds in PIS (Plot-Induced Stupidity). Many verses have it, Naruto has trains, Solo Leveling has cars for hunters to travel from one place to another, Reality Quest (also a Tier 9 verse) literally once had the main character struggling in running and got chased by a bear (it was even described to have 60 mph speed), despite the fact that he was actually performing feats of breaking the sound barrier, etc.

or it's calcs with exaggerated inputs. the Ayanokoji blitzes Ichika 62.5 m/s calc started out initially as "supersonic/hypersonic Ayanokoji".

Ayanokouji blitzing Ichika would of course be faster than Ichika blitzing Kushida, not by numerical values, but through the fact that Ayanokouji basically blitzed Ichika, and even the gap between them is massive.

• Ayanokouji blitzes Ichika (62.5 m/s) | Subsonic
• Ichika attacks fast (342 m/s) | Transonic
  
  Ayanokoji blitzing Ichika with 18% of the speed that Ichika used against Kushida (literal fodder) is inconsistent. I would ask for more input from calcers.​

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Some of the feats in the verse page are being reworked

 

[Vzearr]

Some of the feats in the verse page are being reworked

So rework them instead of expecting people to accept changes that you have planned but aren't guaranteed to be accepted? How about instead of making a single thread for every calc, make a large thread where there are multiple accepted calcs so as to prove the feats aren't inconsistent.

Ayanokouji blitzes Ichika (62.5 m/s) | Subsonic

Ichika attacks fast (342 m/s) | Transonic

Ayanokoji blitzing Ichika with 18% of the speed that Ichika used against Kushida (literal fodder) is inconsistent. I would ask for more input from calcers.​

Well, I don't really like this. We can only lowball blitz calculations so using them to call this feat inconsistent doesn't really make sense since the "Ayanokouji blitzes Ichika" calculation doesn't necessarily reflect the true value of Ayanokouji's speed. Well, I mean, technically it is true but its a conservative estimate, which is why I don't like calling it inconsistent with the transonic feat.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Alright, so let me get this clear. Ichika got blitzed by Ayanokouji, currently it is calculated at a speed where we use 0.08 s to get the speeds, which means we use superhuman low-end for that. Now, even if Ichika were to be 10s of mach tiers into speed, she would still need to have calcs involving her calculated through that 80 ms timeframe, due to the calc stacking rule. It isn't inconsistency, it is basically a calc getting lowballed in general terms to avoid breakage of wiki rules.

However, Ichika's calc is actually easily upgradable, I am planning to rework on it after a small acceptance of a revision which will concern the calculation. Because the premise of the feat in the original feat actually does give a lot of context, and basically goes to show how insanely faster Ayanokouji is when compared to Ichika.

The second thing is that Ayanokouji blitzing Ichika massively is overall movement speed feat, but let's not forget that Ayanokouji massively outsped Ichika's attacks (which, if the current calc was to get accepted, should be as fast as or faster than the speed calculated).

 

[wwereymy235]

Looks good to me imo. Gonna annoy Dereck until he gives his opinion here

 

[MCH2]

Well, I don't really like this. We can only lowball blitz calculations so using them to call this feat inconsistent doesn't really make sense since the "Ayanokouji blitzes Ichika" calculation doesn't necessarily reflect the true value of Ayanokouji's speed. Well, I mean, technically it is true but its a conservative estimate, which is why I don't like calling it inconsistent with the transonic feat.

I understand this, I am mostly saying the calcs should be consistent to an extent, the other ayanokoji speed calc is around 60 m/s as well (the housen one), this one would have him at 1143-1715 m/s depending if he is 3ish or 5x ichika. I am well aware the Ayanokoji blitzes Ichika calc can go from subsonic to supersonic even depending on assumptions.

What I would suggest (and feel free to disagree) is putting speed calcs into one thread and then just taking a high level view at their outputs and assumptions, since most of them are LN and thus involve a wild interval depending on assumptions.

(Also what happened to Ayanokoji stops manabu calc? What was the problem with it?)

 

[Vzearr]

What I would suggest (and feel free to disagree) is putting speed calcs into one thread and then just taking a high level view at their outputs and assumptions, since most of them are LN and thus involve a wild interval depending on assumptions.

Heavily agree, making a thread for 1 calc when you have many more planned for the future seems redundant.

 

[MCH2]

@RoggerReggor what about this statement?

“Amasawa's fighting skills, which she had learned in the white room, are real.
The fact that she and the other student had been in the white room for a long time and had learned to fight in the white room was a real advantage. However, whether they can compete with me on equal terms was a completely different matter.
Even if the opponent's skill had increased from 5 to 20, or even 30, it meant nothing because my score was still 100. “

This statement doesn’t apply to just Ichika, but to Yagami as well. The interpretation at least for me was “Even if the opponent's skill had increased from 5 to 20(Ichika), or even 30(Yagami), it meant nothing because my score was still 100.”

 

[RoggerReggor]

@RoggerReggor what about this statement?

“Amasawa's fighting skills, which she had learned in the white room, are real.
The fact that she and the other student had been in the white room for a long time and had learned to fight in the white room was a real advantage. However, whether they can compete with me on equal terms was a completely different matter.
Even if the opponent's skill had increased from 5 to 20, or even 30, it meant nothing because my score was still 100. “

This statement doesn’t apply to just Ichika, but to Yagami as well. The interpretation at least for me was “Even if the opponent's skill had increased from 5 to 20(Ichika), or even 30(Yagami), it meant nothing because my score was still 100.”

To be honest we CAN and HAVE got Takuya to a whole another tier because Ichika was close to the another tier. But again, I cannot argue about that here, even though I very well agree with you.

I believe that it is more like 5 (Mid tiers like Manabu, Housen, etc) to 20 (Ichika), or even 30 (Takuya).

And no, please don't mention Takuya as "Yagami", I have some Light fans keeping their eyes on me who would eat me if I somehow disgraced their lord Light.

 

[Inferno3054]

• Yuki is superior to everyone before due to belonging to the 4th generation, which had stricter curriculum, and she had passed everything which Takuya did and she was also one of the final survivors in the White Room.
• Shiro is superior to Yuki because while he belonged to the same generation, he had better results than her.
• Current Ayanokouji and Shiro, for now cannot be compared. Though current Ayanokouji would take if a comparison were to happen, as he has much more feats and Shiro basically scales through narratives.
• Kid Ayanokouji is superior to current Ayanokouji (I know this take sounds absurd, but many people have started to accept it). Current Ayanokouji was breaking down in cold sweat while fighting two characters (Tsukishiro and Shiba) who could engage in a rough battle and Kid Ayanokouji was without any kind of difficulties, taking on 6 fighters. These 6 fighters were brought by the White Room instructors in Volume 0, and Kid Ayanokouji had already defeated all of the instructors in the White Room. Someone can debate that a single or lesser than 6 White Room instructors would equalize 6 of them, but it isn't actually debatable, considering that nothing was stopping White Room instructors from grouping together on Ayanokouji, so it is better to assume that they already had, and it is clear that the fight with the 6 of them was basically for training purposes. (Scans)

I have many issues with your scaling chains for the 4th generation White Room students.

1. Shiro's and Yuki's narrative is not strong enough to be able to quantifiably scale them anywhere.

The main issue with Shiro and Yuki is that their scaling is entirely reliant on the narrative of the 4th generation being superior to the 5th, but we do not know to what extent.

To elaborate, the physical education and the academic education of the White Room are separate, and one can be finished more quickly than the other. How do we know this? Ayanokoji himself.

At the end of chapter 5 of V0, we see that Ayanokoji has essentially already completed his physical curriculum at the age of 9, having defeated all of his instructors, with the White Room being forced to expand on the education by having Ayanokoji take part in legitimate battles rather than fixed ones.

However, for the academic education, we actually learn via a direct statement from Suzukake that Ayanokoji was beginning to reach the limit of what any instructor could teach him when he was 12.
(Scan)

So, when it comes to the differences between the abilities of those within the 4th and 5th generations, we do not know the difference between each one in regards to the physical education they received, as we were never told anything about it by Ichika, Tsukishiro, Shiba, or even Takuya, nor was there any information on this specific topic in V0. We only know about the educational difference between the two generations in their academic studies, in which the 4th simply learned their topics at a much earlier age.

This means that the narrative of the 4th generation > 5th in physical ability and combat becomes shaky, but obviously, this isn't enough to prove anything, so I'll move onto my next point.


2. Shiro's lack of feats and relativity to Kid Ayanokoji.

To put it simply, none of Kid Ayanokoji's feats apply to Shiro in any manner in the slightest.

In these scans, we learn that Shiro had never defeated Ayanokoji in Judo after their very first fight at the age of 4. At this point, Ayanokoji had already begun to gap Shiro in combat, with this difference becoming so massive later on when they were 8-9 that Ayanokoji simply overpowered Shiro, stating that regardless of how much strength he outputs, he will always use just enough to beat Shiro. This was done despite the fact Shiro had motivated himself in this instant with his absolute desire to defeat Ayanokoji.

Yuki, who dropped out at the age of 7, is incomparable to the likes of either Ayanokoji or Shiro, as her combative capabilities were never talked about unlike Shiro.


3. The amount of training that the 4th and 5th gen students received.

This is a pretty obvious point. The fact that Shiro and Yuki dropped out of the 4th generation at such a young age makes it more unlikely than it already was that they are above the likes of either Takuya or Ichika, who had spent the full 15 years training in the White Room.

Obviously, Shiro would be affected by this to a lesser degree than Yuki, as he remained in the White Room by either a year or two longer than she did. However, the point remains, as his lack of relativity to Ayanokoji and info on the physical difference between their two generations is unquantifiable.


This is obvious, but Ichika and Takuya's older age and larger frames will mean they are physically stronger than the likes of Ichika and Shiro.

Since Shiro doesn't scale anywhere near Kid Ayanokoji, he doesn't have the same strength as Ayanokoji, who was actually capable of defeating the instructors using his physical strength (Scan). The only statement we have for Shiro here comes from Ayanokoji, who stated that Shiro is an opponent who is more difficult to defeat than a "half-baked adult", which still doesn't scale him anywhere near the likes of Ichika or Takuya, who are both physically superior to the likes of the majority of adults (especially Takuya, who we actually see manhandling Mashima).


4. Takuya and Ichika's in-verse scaling

I won't go into depth on this point, but its stated within Y2V4.5 that Ichika has low-end relativity to Shiba, as it was stated she could "turn away" his attacks for a short period of time if she wanted to, even if she would lose in the end (Scan). Ichika also displayed the ability to continue fighting afterwards despite being physically mangled by Shiba's sanctioning, showing high levels of endurance on her end that neither Shiro or Yuki have shown to be capable of.

Obviously, Takuya scales far above Ichika, considering it's stated she never once beat him in a fight during their multiple years together in the White Room, and Takuya's feat of reaction/perception (doesn't matter which) blitzing her despite her best attempt at concentrating on his movements.


5. Kid Ayanokoji being above Current Ayanokoji

The only "proof" we have for this point is that he defeated all his White Room instructors, who we presume to be on the level of or above the likes of Shiba, with these instructors all being defeated by Kid Ayanokoji, whilst Current Ayanokoji seemingly had trouble against Shiba and Tsukishiro.

There's a few problems with this line of thinking.

• For one, we do not know exactly how Shiba compares to the instructors that Ayanokoji went up against. After all, if he were on this level, this would mean that he is physically inferior to the likes of the Yakuza thugs that Kid Ayanokoji went up against in V0, who are stated to be stronger than KA in terms of pure physical strength. Thjs would also downscale current Ayanokoji, as you presume he has relativity to Shiba.
• Ayanokoji calls Tsukishiro one of the most powerful opponents he has ever faced in combat, which includes the stronger opponents he faced after beating all his instructors at 9 all the way up to when he was 14, where his opponents only would've gotten stronger for the sake of his attempted improvement. Shiba being a near equal to Tsukishiro means that he is included within the same ballpark of this exact statement. (Scan)
• Ayanokoji was in a 2 vs. 1 situation, and was also in an unsanctioned match. Kid Ayanokoji defeated all of his instructors within the confines of sanctioned matches, where they were limited to specific fighting styles and were put under rules they could not break. Ayanokoji vs. Tsukishiro and Shiba was a no-holds barred matched, where Tsukishiro even resorted to dirty tactics to try and attempt to immobilize Ayanokoji. It would be false equivalence to attempt to say the Y2V4 and V0 fights were of the same caliber. Additionally, Ayanokoji was also drained by his 2 weeks spent on the island running around doing tasks and going from location to location, meaning he wasn't at 100% when he initiated his fight with the two assassins.
• Obviously, current Ayanokoji is larger than Kid Ayanokoji, meaning he possesses greater muscle mass and therefore strength. Furthermore, he possesses greater fighting experience and martial arts knowledge.

Conclusion:

The scaling chain should be... Current Ayanokoji > Kid Ayanokoji (debatable) > Takuya > Ichika > Shiro > Yuki.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I have many issues with your scaling chains for the 4th generation White Room students.

1. Shiro's and Yuki's narrative is not strong enough to be able to quantifiably scale them anywhere.

The main issue with Shiro and Yuki is that their scaling is entirely reliant on the narrative of the 4th generation being superior to the 5th, but we do not know to what extent.

To elaborate, the physical education and the academic education of the White Room are separate, and one can be finished more quickly than the other. How do we know this? Ayanokoji himself.

At the end of chapter 5 of V0, we see that Ayanokoji has essentially already completed his physical curriculum at the age of 9, having defeated all of his instructors, with the White Room being forced to expand on the education by having Ayanokoji take part in legitimate battles rather than fixed ones.

However, for the academic education, we actually learn via a direct statement from Suzukake that Ayanokoji was beginning to reach the limit of what any instructor could teach him when he was 12.
(Scan)

So, when it comes to the differences between the abilities of those within the 4th and 5th generations, we do not know the difference between each one in regards to the physical education they received, as we were never told anything about it by Ichika, Tsukishiro, Shiba, or even Takuya, nor was there any information on this specific topic in V0. We only know about the educational difference between the two generations in their academic studies, in which the 4th simply learned their topics at a much earlier age.

This means that the narrative of the 4th generation > 5th in physical ability and combat becomes shaky, but obviously, this isn't enough to prove anything, so I'll move onto my next point.


2. Shiro's lack of feats and relativity to Kid Ayanokoji.

To put it simply, none of Kid Ayanokoji's feats apply to Shiro in any manner in the slightest.

In these scans, we learn that Shiro had never defeated Ayanokoji in Judo after their very first fight at the age of 4. At this point, Ayanokoji had already begun to gap Shiro in combat, with this difference becoming so massive later on when they were 8-9 that Ayanokoji simply overpowered Shiro, stating that regardless of how much strength he outputs, he will always use just enough to beat Shiro. This was done despite the fact Shiro had motivated himself in this instant with his absolute desire to defeat Ayanokoji.

Yuki, who dropped out at the age of 7, is incomparable to the likes of either Ayanokoji or Shiro, as her combative capabilities were never talked about unlike Shiro.


3. The amount of training that the 4th and 5th gen students received.

This is a pretty obvious point. The fact that Shiro and Yuki dropped out of the 4th generation at such a young age makes it more unlikely than it already was that they are above the likes of either Takuya or Ichika, who had spent the full 15 years training in the White Room.

Obviously, Shiro would be affected by this to a lesser degree than Yuki, as he remained in the White Room by either a year or two longer than she did. However, the point remains, as his lack of relativity to Ayanokoji and info on the physical difference between their two generations is unquantifiable.


This is obvious, but Ichika and Takuya's older age and larger frames will mean they are physically stronger than the likes of Ichika and Shiro.

Since Shiro doesn't scale anywhere near Kid Ayanokoji, he doesn't have the same strength as Ayanokoji, who was actually capable of defeating the instructors using his physical strength (Scan). The only statement we have for Shiro here comes from Ayanokoji, who stated that Shiro is an opponent who is more difficult to defeat than a "half-baked adult", which still doesn't scale him anywhere near the likes of Ichika or Takuya, who are both physically superior to the likes of the majority of adults (especially Takuya, who we actually see manhandling Mashima).


4. Takuya and Ichika's in-verse scaling

I won't go into depth on this point, but its stated within Y2V4.5 that Ichika has low-end relativity to Shiba, as it was stated she could "turn away" his attacks for a short period of time if she wanted to, even if she would lose in the end (Scan). Ichika also displayed the ability to continue fighting afterwards despite being physically mangled by Shiba's sanctioning, showing high levels of endurance on her end that neither Shiro or Yuki have shown to be capable of.

Obviously, Takuya scales far above Ichika, considering it's stated she never once beat him in a fight during their multiple years together in the White Room, and Takuya's feat of reaction/perception (doesn't matter which) blitzing her despite her best attempt at concentrating on his movements.


5. Kid Ayanokoji being above Current Ayanokoji

The only "proof" we have for this point is that he defeated all his White Room instructors, who we presume to be on the level of or above the likes of Shiba, with these instructors all being defeated by Kid Ayanokoji, whilst Current Ayanokoji seemingly had trouble against Shiba and Tsukishiro.

There's a few problems with this line of thinking.

• For one, we do not know exactly how Shiba compares to the instructors that Ayanokoji went up against. After all, if he were on this level, this would mean that he is physically inferior to the likes of the Yakuza thugs that Kid Ayanokoji went up against in V0, who are stated to be stronger than KA in terms of pure physical strength. Thjs would also downscale current Ayanokoji, as you presume he has relativity to Shiba.
• Ayanokoji calls Tsukishiro one of the most powerful opponents he has ever faced in combat, which includes the stronger opponents he faced after beating all his instructors at 9 all the way up to when he was 14, where his opponents only would've gotten stronger for the sake of his attempted improvement. Shiba being a near equal to Tsukishiro means that he is included within the same ballpark of this exact statement. (Scan)
• Ayanokoji was in a 2 vs. 1 situation, and was also in an unsanctioned match. Kid Ayanokoji defeated all of his instructors within the confines of sanctioned matches, where they were limited to specific fighting styles and were put under rules they could not break. Ayanokoji vs. Tsukishiro and Shiba was a no-holds barred matched, where Tsukishiro even resorted to dirty tactics to try and attempt to immobilize Ayanokoji. It would be false equivalence to attempt to say the Y2V4 and V0 fights were of the same caliber. Additionally, Ayanokoji was also drained by his 2 weeks spent on the island running around doing tasks and going from location to location, meaning he wasn't at 100% when he initiated his fight with the two assassins.
• Obviously, current Ayanokoji is larger than Kid Ayanokoji, meaning he possesses greater muscle mass and therefore strength. Furthermore, he possesses greater fighting experience and martial arts knowledge.

Conclusion:

The scaling chain should be... Current Ayanokoji > Kid Ayanokoji (debatable) > Takuya > Ichika > Shiro > Yuki.

INFERNO THE GOAT

 

[Inferno3054]

I agree with the thread.

I doubt that Kushida would scale to this for her durability, since she felt a throbbing pain and a sensation of blood hemorrhaging under her skin, which would require Ichika to actually have an AP which is higher than Kushida's durability, and the energy equal to Kushida's durability would bypass her durability, and the remaining energy would be basically doing what happened with Kushida (that is, immense pain and sensations).

So, in theory, as Kushida would have just been killed if she didn't have enough durability to withstand the blow, she should scale to at least scale to a part of the energy in joules of Ichika's AP for her durability. But this is also rather a stretch, as plot-induced stupidities do exist. Take for example, Ash Ketchum can survive Pikachu's Thunderbolts, despite him having Wall level+ durability and Pikachu's attacks having Mountain level AP, it is simply due to the fact that the plot doesn't intend to have Ash dead by that time, despite there being billions of energy difference between the AP and durability of the said characters. And at the same time, the attack also breaks down Ash completely. The same might apply for Kushida, the writer might not have decided to kill Kushida. But still, the characters would have Wall level AP and Durability (baseline) just so the massive 100s of times of difference between the low tiers and Ichika doesn't really come into play.

The characters under Ichika should have baseline Wall level AP and Durability (except Arisu, of course), right? I guess that's what is being proposed in the thread...

Or the other explanation, being that Ichika held back the strength of her punch given that her intention was to continually bully Kushida in this instance rather than cripple her.

 

[Inferno3054]

About the crater on the ground, the thing is, COTE is a novel, so there might actually be a small sized crater and they might never include it in the writing of the novel.

If you follow the concept of Chekhov's Gun, then it would make more sense if the crater in question was ever actually mentioned. Since it wasn't, it doesn't exist.

 

[MCH2]

I have many issues with your scaling chains for the 4th generation White Room students.

1. Shiro's and Yuki's narrative is not strong enough to be able to quantifiably scale them anywhere.

The main issue with Shiro and Yuki is that their scaling is entirely reliant on the narrative of the 4th generation being superior to the 5th, but we do not know to what extent.

To elaborate, the physical education and the academic education of the White Room are separate, and one can be finished more quickly than the other. How do we know this? Ayanokoji himself.

At the end of chapter 5 of V0, we see that Ayanokoji has essentially already completed his physical curriculum at the age of 9, having defeated all of his instructors, with the White Room being forced to expand on the education by having Ayanokoji take part in legitimate battles rather than fixed ones.

However, for the academic education, we actually learn via a direct statement from Suzukake that Ayanokoji was beginning to reach the limit of what any instructor could teach him when he was 12.
(Scan)

So, when it comes to the differences between the abilities of those within the 4th and 5th generations, we do not know the difference between each one in regards to the physical education they received, as we were never told anything about it by Ichika, Tsukishiro, Shiba, or even Takuya, nor was there any information on this specific topic in V0. We only know about the educational difference between the two generations in their academic studies, in which the 4th simply learned their topics at a much earlier age.

This means that the narrative of the 4th generation > 5th in physical ability and combat becomes shaky, but obviously, this isn't enough to prove anything, so I'll move onto my next point.


2. Shiro's lack of feats and relativity to Kid Ayanokoji.

To put it simply, none of Kid Ayanokoji's feats apply to Shiro in any manner in the slightest.

In these scans, we learn that Shiro had never defeated Ayanokoji in Judo after their very first fight at the age of 4. At this point, Ayanokoji had already begun to gap Shiro in combat, with this difference becoming so massive later on when they were 8-9 that Ayanokoji simply overpowered Shiro, stating that regardless of how much strength he outputs, he will always use just enough to beat Shiro. This was done despite the fact Shiro had motivated himself in this instant with his absolute desire to defeat Ayanokoji.

Yuki, who dropped out at the age of 7, is incomparable to the likes of either Ayanokoji or Shiro, as her combative capabilities were never talked about unlike Shiro.


3. The amount of training that the 4th and 5th gen students received.

This is a pretty obvious point. The fact that Shiro and Yuki dropped out of the 4th generation at such a young age makes it more unlikely than it already was that they are above the likes of either Takuya or Ichika, who had spent the full 15 years training in the White Room.

Obviously, Shiro would be affected by this to a lesser degree than Yuki, as he remained in the White Room by either a year or two longer than she did. However, the point remains, as his lack of relativity to Ayanokoji and info on the physical difference between their two generations is unquantifiable.


This is obvious, but Ichika and Takuya's older age and larger frames will mean they are physically stronger than the likes of Ichika and Shiro.

Since Shiro doesn't scale anywhere near Kid Ayanokoji, he doesn't have the same strength as Ayanokoji, who was actually capable of defeating the instructors using his physical strength (Scan). The only statement we have for Shiro here comes from Ayanokoji, who stated that Shiro is an opponent who is more difficult to defeat than a "half-baked adult", which still doesn't scale him anywhere near the likes of Ichika or Takuya, who are both physically superior to the likes of the majority of adults (especially Takuya, who we actually see manhandling Mashima).


4. Takuya and Ichika's in-verse scaling

I won't go into depth on this point, but its stated within Y2V4.5 that Ichika has low-end relativity to Shiba, as it was stated she could "turn away" his attacks for a short period of time if she wanted to, even if she would lose in the end (Scan). Ichika also displayed the ability to continue fighting afterwards despite being physically mangled by Shiba's sanctioning, showing high levels of endurance on her end that neither Shiro or Yuki have shown to be capable of.

Obviously, Takuya scales far above Ichika, considering it's stated she never once beat him in a fight during their multiple years together in the White Room, and Takuya's feat of reaction/perception (doesn't matter which) blitzing her despite her best attempt at concentrating on his movements.


5. Kid Ayanokoji being above Current Ayanokoji

The only "proof" we have for this point is that he defeated all his White Room instructors, who we presume to be on the level of or above the likes of Shiba, with these instructors all being defeated by Kid Ayanokoji, whilst Current Ayanokoji seemingly had trouble against Shiba and Tsukishiro.

There's a few problems with this line of thinking.

• For one, we do not know exactly how Shiba compares to the instructors that Ayanokoji went up against. After all, if he were on this level, this would mean that he is physically inferior to the likes of the Yakuza thugs that Kid Ayanokoji went up against in V0, who are stated to be stronger than KA in terms of pure physical strength. Thjs would also downscale current Ayanokoji, as you presume he has relativity to Shiba.
• Ayanokoji calls Tsukishiro one of the most powerful opponents he has ever faced in combat, which includes the stronger opponents he faced after beating all his instructors at 9 all the way up to when he was 14, where his opponents only would've gotten stronger for the sake of his attempted improvement. Shiba being a near equal to Tsukishiro means that he is included within the same ballpark of this exact statement. (Scan)
• Ayanokoji was in a 2 vs. 1 situation, and was also in an unsanctioned match. Kid Ayanokoji defeated all of his instructors within the confines of sanctioned matches, where they were limited to specific fighting styles and were put under rules they could not break. Ayanokoji vs. Tsukishiro and Shiba was a no-holds barred matched, where Tsukishiro even resorted to dirty tactics to try and attempt to immobilize Ayanokoji. It would be false equivalence to attempt to say the Y2V4 and V0 fights were of the same caliber. Additionally, Ayanokoji was also drained by his 2 weeks spent on the island running around doing tasks and going from location to location, meaning he wasn't at 100% when he initiated his fight with the two assassins.
• Obviously, current Ayanokoji is larger than Kid Ayanokoji, meaning he possesses greater muscle mass and therefore strength. Furthermore, he possesses greater fighting experience and martial arts knowledge.

Conclusion:

The scaling chain should be... Current Ayanokoji > Kid Ayanokoji (debatable) > Takuya > Ichika > Shiro > Yuki.

I am more in agreement with regards to Yuki than Shiro.

First of all, lets acknowledge the lack of breadth for our knowledge of both. So the little we have is subject to interpretation. lets start with Yuki.

Yuki :
- 4th best 4th gen student, the insane difficulty of the 4th gen likely means that the education she received isn’t radically different from the full 5th gen.

- was the best swimmer, until surpassed.

- Koji said she had talent, able to master a new subject quickly.

- Started reaching her limit when she was 7, constantly dropping scores until her finals.

- Has motor paralysis

- Has huge psychological issues

With everything in mind, my opinion has always been that one cannot really scale her reliably.

Now lets get to Shiro:

- 2nd best 4th gen student, the insane difficulty of the 4th gen likely means that the education he received isn’t radically different from the full 5th gen.

- had the best fighting record against other students at 4, though Ayanokoji would surpass him.

- Koji said he had talent, able to master a new subject quickly.

- Shiro stated he was going to remain there for 10 years. Implying he can finish the curriculum.

- Ayanokoji stated that Shiro’s skills were improving every day. He further stated that he doesn’t understand why Shiro doesn’t want to see where his limit lies. This creates a contrast between Shiro and Yuki, where one didn’t reach his limit and dropped out much later.

- Ayanokoji’s statement regarding serious Shiro being better than a half-baked adult likely scales him above a WR instructor. Ayanokoji hasn’t fought outsiders at that point, and right after Shiro dropped out, Koji beat all the instructors. So at the very least serious Shiro is also better than the WR instructors.

- Shiro “dropping out” can only be accomplished by making the WR believe he reached his limit. and Shiro was more serious in that one fight where they weren’t totally watched than normal. One can conclude Shiro is nominally sandbagging at that point to leave.

- Ayanokoji’s use of 120, 150, etc at the very least implies he’s exerting himself. And he said it wasn’t an easy battle. He used 6s and 4s to describe Shiba and Tsukishiro. Used 30 and 20 to describe Yagami and Ichika, etc.

Based on this, Shiro at the very minimum I’d say would outscale Takuya and Ichika.

I disagree with current Koji < kid Koji, but if that’s the premise than Shiro is faaaaaar ahead of Yagami. So I agree with his current placement.

Yuki on the other hand, I agree with you. She doesn’t scale close to Shiro whatsoever. But the reason she’s there is due to scaling chain simplifications. I’d probably have her better than Ichika at least, but it’s totally plausible that her motor paralysis has made her a downright low tier.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Makima and Blade (I guess) (in powerscaling) and Dax, Huntsman, Cento, Inferno, Jay (in intelligence scaling) would eat all of the ones mentioned in breakfast.

Ngl, I've seen MK's takes about Ayanokoji and tbf he takes things written in the novel too literally but I'm sure he knows how to argue.
Blade has great rhetoric, good understanding of things and knows what he's talking about, but he isn't that into power-scaling these days, I talk to the guy quite frequently and he isn't really invested in power-scaling.

I remember I used to troll Dax PMFT and Inferno in one server (and also some other users presented in the said server) and I got them pissed because of my takes (we're in good terms now). Although I don't really scale intelligence, Pmft and inferno are probably Ayano's scalers i trust, others either wank tf out of him or downplay him.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I am more in agreement with regards to Yuki than Shiro.

First of all, lets acknowledge the lack of breadth for our knowledge of both. So the little we have is subject to interpretation. lets start with Yuki.

Yuki :
- 4th best 4th gen student, the insane difficulty of the 4th gen likely means that the education she received isn’t radically different from the full 5th gen.

- was the best swimmer, until surpassed.

- Koji said she had talent, able to master a new subject quickly.

- Started reaching her limit when she was 7, constantly dropping scores until her finals.

- Has motor paralysis

- Has huge psychological issues

With everything in mind, my opinion has always been that one cannot really scale her reliably.

Now lets get to Shiro:

- 2nd best 4th gen student, the insane difficulty of the 4th gen likely means that the education he received isn’t radically different from the full 5th gen.

- had the best fighting record against other students at 4, though Ayanokoji would surpass him.

- Koji said he had talent, able to master a new subject quickly.

- Shiro stated he was going to remain there for 10 years. Implying he can finish the curriculum.

- Ayanokoji stated that Shiro’s skills were improving every day. He further stated that he doesn’t understand why Shiro doesn’t want to see where his limit lies. This creates a contrast between Shiro and Yuki, where one didn’t reach his limit and dropped out much later.

- Ayanokoji’s statement regarding serious Shiro being better than a half-baked adult likely scales him above a WR instructor. Ayanokoji hasn’t fought outsiders at that point, and right after Shiro dropped out, Koji beat all the instructors. So at the very least serious Shiro is also better than the WR instructors.

- Shiro “dropping out” can only be accomplished by making the WR believe he reached his limit. and Shiro was more serious in that one fight where they weren’t totally watched than normal. One can conclude Shiro is nominally sandbagging at that point to leave.

- Ayanokoji’s use of 120, 150, etc at the very least implies he’s exerting himself. And he said it wasn’t an easy battle. He used 6s and 4s to describe Shiba and Tsukishiro. Used 30 and 20 to describe Yagami and Ichika, etc.

Based on this, Shiro at the very minimum I’d say would outscale Takuya and Ichika.

I disagree with current Koji < kid Koji, but if that’s the premise than Shiro is faaaaaar ahead of Yagami. So I agree with his current placement.

Yuki on the other hand, I agree with you. She doesn’t scale close to Shiro whatsoever. But the reason she’s there is due to scaling chain simplifications. I’d probably have her better than Ichika at least, but it’s totally plausible that her motor paralysis has made her a downright low tier.

Thing is, Takuya did the level 4, Yuki did level 10, The reason why she scales higher is because of the following;

• She did level 10 whereas Takuya did level 4 (Obvious)
• The 6th and 7th generation attempted the level 5-6 and were obliterated
• It was also stated that the 5th generation had no hope of doing the level 10
• She was the 3rd best of the WR (I think you said 4th by accident or idr if there really was someone better than her)
• Iirc, The reason she got expelled was because she was on her period or smth which affected her ability to do the tests (I might be misremembering though)

 

[MCH2]

Thing is, Takuya did the level 4, Yuki did level 10, The reason why she scales higher is because of the following;

• She did level 10 whereas Takuya did level 4 (Obvious)
• The 6th and 7th generation attempted the level 5-6 and were obliterated
• It was also stated that the 5th generation had no hope of doing the level 10
• She was the 3rd best of the WR (I think you said 4th by accident or idr if there really was someone better than her)
• Iirc, The reason she got expelled was because she was on her period or smth which affected her ability to do the tests (I might be misremembering though)

She was the 4th best, since on the finals where she dropped out there were 4 students.

My point regarding Yuki specifically is that she doesn’t scale to Shiro at all, and that she has sustained enormous physical And psychological damage.

As for her dropping out, the major reason was that her scores were already dropping throughout the year at that point. she reached her limit so she was removed. the period is something that required medical attention but she was struggling that year based on dropped scores.

 

[Zefra3011]

Can't you guy Just make a CRT to set a scaling chain for the verse? It can be added to the verse Page

 

[RoggerReggor]

Ngl, I've seen MK's takes about Ayanokoji and tbf he takes things written in the novel too literally but I'm sure he knows how to argue.

Makima solos in debating, I remember he once debated and won against a debating guy (whom I wouldn't reveal) while having an objectively wrong take lol.

Blade has great rhetoric, good understanding of things and knows what he's talking about, but he isn't that into power-scaling these days, I talk to the guy quite frequently and he isn't really invested in power-scaling.

Yes, Blade has left power-scaling rn and the only place where he talks to me is instagram. There were days when only him and Acid Ninja used to powerscale and ngl, while Acid has a huge amount of his debatable takes proven wrong, Blade's maximum takes are still applicable.

He also had the Takuya > Tsukishiro and Shiba was heavily refuted once back until he just went against a lot of people and did prove that lol.

I remember I used to troll Dax PMFT and Inferno in one server (and also some other users presented in the said server) and I got them pissed because of my takes (we're in good terms now). Although I don't really scale intelligence, Pmft and inferno are probably Ayano's scalers i trust, others either wank tf out of him or downplay him.

You aren't against Ayanokouji being equal to Akiyama?

She was the 4th best, since on the finals where she dropped out there were 4 students.

My point regarding Yuki specifically is that she doesn’t scale to Shiro at all, and that she has sustained enormous physical And psychological damage.

As for her dropping out, the major reason was that her scores were already dropping throughout the year at that point. she reached her limit so she was removed. the period is something that required medical attention but she was struggling that year based on dropped scores.

The only thing about this is that going according to the student drop rate, it was only about 30% in the other gens, while Yuki was like in less than 5%, and she unarguably passed the general determined limit of the White Room which caused most of the people to drop out.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Can't you guy Just make a CRT to set a scaling chain for the verse? It can be added to the verse Page

Time to contact some COTE people to add more controversial scalings fr.

 

[Inferno3054]

I am more in agreement with regards to Yuki than Shiro.

First of all, lets acknowledge the lack of breadth for our knowledge of both. So the little we have is subject to interpretation. lets start with Yuki.

Yuki :
- 4th best 4th gen student, the insane difficulty of the 4th gen likely means that the education she received isn’t radically different from the full 5th gen.

- was the best swimmer, until surpassed.

- Koji said she had talent, able to master a new subject quickly.

- Started reaching her limit when she was 7, constantly dropping scores until her finals.

- Has motor paralysis

- Has huge psychological issues

With everything in mind, my opinion has always been that one cannot really scale her reliably.

Now lets get to Shiro:

- 2nd best 4th gen student, the insane difficulty of the 4th gen likely means that the education he received isn’t radically different from the full 5th gen.

- had the best fighting record against other students at 4, though Ayanokoji would surpass him.

- Koji said he had talent, able to master a new subject quickly.

- Shiro stated he was going to remain there for 10 years. Implying he can finish the curriculum.

- Ayanokoji stated that Shiro’s skills were improving every day. He further stated that he doesn’t understand why Shiro doesn’t want to see where his limit lies. This creates a contrast between Shiro and Yuki, where one didn’t reach his limit and dropped out much later.

- Ayanokoji’s statement regarding serious Shiro being better than a half-baked adult likely scales him above a WR instructor. Ayanokoji hasn’t fought outsiders at that point, and right after Shiro dropped out, Koji beat all the instructors. So at the very least serious Shiro is also better than the WR instructors.

- Shiro “dropping out” can only be accomplished by making the WR believe he reached his limit. and Shiro was more serious in that one fight where they weren’t totally watched than normal. One can conclude Shiro is nominally sandbagging at that point to leave.

- Ayanokoji’s use of 120, 150, etc at the very least implies he’s exerting himself. And he said it wasn’t an easy battle. He used 6s and 4s to describe Shiba and Tsukishiro. Used 30 and 20 to describe Yagami and Ichika, etc.

Based on this, Shiro at the very minimum I’d say would outscale Takuya and Ichika.

I disagree with current Koji < kid Koji, but if that’s the premise than Shiro is faaaaaar ahead of Yagami. So I agree with his current placement.

Yuki on the other hand, I agree with you. She doesn’t scale close to Shiro whatsoever. But the reason she’s there is due to scaling chain simplifications. I’d probably have her better than Ichika at least, but it’s totally plausible that her motor paralysis has made her a downright low tier.

Still disagree.

For one, your claim regarding Shiro being able to last for the full 20 years of education for the 4th generation is false. Suzukake theorized that all of the remaining students would end up dropping out in the middle of their 9th year, and that anyone who remain would no longer be considered human. This largely means that Suzukake believed that this was the absolute human limit in what even the greatest of geniuses could achieve.

The only reason Shiro survived for so long at that point was because he was a genius alongside Yuki, which Ayanokoji himself intuitively realized when he was 6.

Ayanokoji surviving was almost entirely due to the genetic mutation he received at birth, one which Shiro does not possess. While Shiro has more raw talent, Ayanokoji's potential means he has no upper limit to what he can learn overtime. Shiro has a hard limit in this regard, which we saw with how much Ayanokoji managed to gap him in their fights.

Also, Ayanokoji's statement regarding half-baked adults absolutely does not apply to the White Room instructors. In case you forgot, not all of them are combatants. Ayanokoji should be more than aware of how weak an average human being should be compared to him.

Ayanokoji didn't consider Shiro to be a tough opponent either, he simply said that Shiro was more difficult of an opponent than an adult. Same difference between me saying a teenager is more difficult of a fight than an infant (funny comparison ik).


Again, I do not believe the 4th generation narrative applies to Shiro in a manner that can concretely scale him above the likes of Takuya Yagami. Even when it comes to Kid Ayanokoji himself, the 4th generation narrative alone isn't concrete enough to scale him above Yagami with that alone with 100% certainty.

 

[MCH2]

Still disagree.

For one, your claim regarding Shiro being able to last for the full 20 years of education for the 4th generation is false. Suzukake theorized that all of the remaining students would end up dropping out in the middle of their 9th year, and that anyone who remain would no longer be considered human. This largely means that Suzukake believed that this was the absolute human limit in what even the greatest of geniuses could achieve.

The only reason Shiro survived for so long at that point was because he was a genius alongside Yuki, which Ayanokoji himself intuitively realized when he was 6.

Ayanokoji surviving was almost entirely due to the genetic mutation he received at birth, one which Shiro does not possess. While Shiro has more raw talent, Ayanokoji's potential means he has no upper limit to what he can learn overtime. Shiro has a hard limit in this regard, which we saw with how much Ayanokoji managed to gap him in their fights.

Also, Ayanokoji's statement regarding half-baked adults absolutely does not apply to the White Room instructors. In case you forgot, not all of them are combatants. Ayanokoji should be more than aware of how weak an average human being should be compared to him.

Ayanokoji didn't consider Shiro to be a tough opponent either, he simply said that Shiro was more difficult of an opponent than an adult. Same difference between me saying a teenager is more difficult of a fight than an infant (funny comparison ik).


Again, I do not believe the 4th generation narrative applies to Shiro in a manner that can concretely scale him above the likes of Takuya Yagami. Even when it comes to Kid Ayanokoji himself, the 4th generation narrative alone isn't concrete enough to scale him above Yagami with that alone with 100% certainty.

Shiro himself said that they were going to go at it for 10 more years.

“I want to be free. I want to have friends. Isn’t it normal to feel that way? Look around you. It’s just me and you. We’re going to be like this for over ten years”

Shiro himself believed he would be able to remain for 10 years. Shiro explicitly did not leave due to reaching his limit or because he stopped improving(contradicted by Ayanokoji’s statements), he left because he wanted to leave.

Whether or not he could have remained is a different matter(the only evidence for it is Shiro’s own statement), but at the very least, whatever his limit is he didn’t reach it in the whiteroom. He left on his accord likely by lowering his scores.

My interpretation to half-baked adults is different than yours, but given Ayanokoji beats all his Martial arts instructors soon after Shiro leaves, I believe my interpretation is correct. Why would Ayanokoji compare Shiro’s fighting ability to a non martial arts instructor or to a random adult?

I agree on your last point. There’s uncertainty inherent even to Shiba vs Yagami or Ichika vs Hosen etc. But at the end one has to make a call and scaling Shiro above Yagami easily is a common held belief.

Regardless, lets end this back and forth for now since this isn’t the thread for it.

 

[Inferno3054]

Shiro himself said that they were going to go at it for 10 more years.

“I want to be free. I want to have friends. Isn’t it normal to feel that way? Look around you. It’s just me and you. We’re going to be like this for over ten years”

Shiro himself believed he would be able to remain for 10 years. Shiro explicitly did not leave due to reaching his limit or because he stopped improving(contradicted by Ayanokoji’s statements), he left because he wanted to leave.

Whether or not he could have remained is a different matter(the only evidence for it is Shiro’s own statement), but at the very least, whatever his limit is he didn’t reach it in the whiteroom. He left on his accord likely by lowering his scores.

My interpretation to half-baked adults is different than yours, but given Ayanokoji beats all his Martial arts instructors soon after Shiro leaves, I believe my interpretation is correct. Why would Ayanokoji compare Shiro’s fighting ability to a non martial arts instructor or to a random adult?

I agree on your last point. There’s uncertainty inherent even to Shiba vs Yagami or Ichika vs Hosen etc. But at the end one has to make a call and scaling Shiro above Yagami easily is a common held belief.

Regardless, lets end this back and forth for now since this isn’t the thread for it.

Got it

 

[RoggerReggor]

Again, I do not believe the 4th generation narrative applies to Shiro in a manner that can concretely scale him above the likes of Takuya Yagami. Even when it comes to Kid Ayanokoji himself, the 4th generation narrative alone isn't concrete enough to scale him above Yagami with that alone with 100% certainty.

Inferno finally joined usss!!!

I agree about this in intelligence, about fighting, I believe that Shiro is superior. We can absolutely say that Shiro and Yuki are more potent due to Suzukake's statements.

Suzukake created a curriculum with 10 levels of difficulty.

Compared to third-generation students, it's natural that the curriculum will be more rigorous and thorough upon birth, but the difficulty level increases significantly after age six when the foundation's being built. Even I, who don't know much about education, judged the Beta curriculum to be unfeasible in light of the first-generation children's limitations and discarded the Beta curriculum.

"I explained to you at the time that we had created a curriculum with 10 difficulty levels, but the Beta was a different dimension that would never be reached. In effect, we considered the fifth or sixth level to be the limit of human development."

"I'm sure of that. It's impossible to even compare the second and third- generation curriculums to the Beta curriculum. The current curriculum up to the third generation isn't easy to follow, and the results aren't remarkable at all. In such a situation, bringing up the Beta curriculum would only destroy the sample material..."

"I know that it's necessary in research to increase the difficulty little by little. But it takes time to climb up the stairs a single step at a time. I would like to see the human limits this one time in the White Room. I don't care if they all drop out."

The training of gen 4 is described. It is that a subject's foundation is made up to the age of 6, and then their difficulty level increases drastically.

"Beta", the curriculum applied to the gen 4 is described as a "different dimension", and it is evident that the curriculum was much more rigorous and also numerically tough as well. While there's no proof of it, gen 4 was difficulty level 10, which meant that they had around 2.5x numerically higher difficulty level than level 4.

Gen 5's curriculum, however, is better than Gen 3's, just slightly though.

"Humans are really interesting. As is true with all children, they learn things they are not taught. I noticed this in the first four generations' education and introduced a communication curriculum from the fifth generation onward. Of course, this has led to some inefficiencies. As a result of developing emotions, the rate of increase in ability decreased. Still, the difficulty level of the curriculum slightly exceeds the previous generations, so the students in the fifth generation and onwards have better abilities than the students from the third generation."

Gen 5 had level 4 while gen 6 had level 5 (the ultimate limit of the White Room), and above that, the level 6 is the general limit of the White Room like no subject except for a few can survive above that.

"From the ten difficulty levels that we've made, the curriculum that we have prepared for the fifth generation is difficulty level four, and for the sixth generation, difficulty level five. This is probably the limit. The sixth level that we applied to the seventh generation already caused all of them to drop out of the program. Eventually, these children will become ideal adults. They will be able to integrate into the world as one of the world's best."

Again, Suzukake's suggestions were used to many generations to improve their output, which increased the efficiency of a subject, and allowed them to rise beyond their human limits.

"We only have three data references, but even if we compare the first and third generation's abilities at the same age, the lowest performing students increased by 11% and the highest performing students increased by 37%, respectively. This proves that the educational method proposed by Suzukake-san is connected to the improvement of human abilities."

So, to conclude, the curriculum of Gen 4 is rigorous and harsh enough to be considered on a different dimension than the other generations. It's a common belief of many scalers that if Takuya did Gen 4 then he might have surpassed Ayanokouji (I have seen that somewhere), but in reality, he hasn't even passed the mark which is considered the limit of the White Room, which is level 6, while he was at level 4 and trained in that.

Suzukake's curriculum is proven to increase the human capabilities, and through relating the fact of the difficulty level increase, the age six for a gen 4 subject should be when their training becomes beyond the level of human development as most of the gen 4s dropped out of the room.

Difficulty levels act towards more development at a highly accelerated rate. It is mentioned as such for mental abilities, and would be true for physical abilities as well.

"The fourth-generation students are being given the Beta curriculum, but there's some cause for concern. The end result of this rigorous education is that they will mentally mature too quickly."

So, a student in gen 4 reaches their full potential much faster than a student in gen 5.

As level 5 is considered the limit, it can be said certainly that Takuya for sure didn't reach his full potential as he was training in the level 4, while Yuki dropped out all while being beyond Takuya and also after reaching the age 6.

Shiro is not debatable as he was the second best and survived while being more than 8 years old, but Yuki surely dropped after age 6, which would make her training level and reached potential beyond that of Takuya, doesn't matter how much potential Takuya has, because he never reached it while Yuki went beyond the general limit of the White Room.

To prove that Yuki survived beyond the age of 6, we can use the volume, Before Yuki dropped out, Ayanokouji was called for an analysis, and in that, it was specifically mentioned that Ayanokouji was 7 years old.

Kiyotaka was selecting and storing the necessary memories. I myself remember vividly dismissing it as a child's fantasy.
After listening to the past seven years of Kiyotaka's life, Tabuchi and the others in front of me were very excited.

Ayanokouji and Yuki should be similar in age as they belonged to the same gen. So, I believe this proves that Yuki's reached potential is above the likes of Takuya.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Regardless, lets end this back and forth for now since this isn’t the thread for it.

It's fine, as the thread also proposes a scaling chain, which can be debated.

 

[Inferno3054]

I agree about this in intelligence, about fighting, I believe that Shiro is superior. We can absolutely say that Shiro and Yuki are more potent due to Suzukake's statements.

The training of gen 4 is described. It is that a subject's foundation is made up to the age of 6, and then their difficulty level increases drdrastically.

The problem here is that the training of gen 5 isn't described. You're talking about the difference between the generations when that difference isn't even quantifiable since we do not have that given information on the 5th generation.

The biggest issue that you're forgetting to acknowledge here is that both Yuki and Shiro still dropped out at a young age. Meaning that the 6-8 year gap that Ichika and Yagami have on Shiro and Yuki means that they very well could've caught upto or surpassed their level of ability.

That's why I talked about the unquantifiable nature of the 4th generation's narrative when compared to the 5th's, as we do not know what the exact difference between these characters were in regards to their physical education.

"Beta", the curriculum applied to the gen 4 is described as a "different dimension", and it is evident that the curriculum was much more rigorous and also numerically tough as well. While there's no proof of it, gen 4 was difficulty level 10, which meant that they had around 2.5x numerically higher difficulty level than level 4.

Yeah... no proof, so there's no point in attempting to scale the difference between the generations in this manner.

Suzukake's curriculum is proven to increase the human capabilities, and through relating the fact of the difficulty level increase, the age six for a gen 4 subject should be when their training becomes beyond the level of human development as most of the gen 4s dropped out of the room.

Yet this gets contradicted later on when Suzukake speaks at a much later date that he predicted all the students would drop out in the middle of their ninth year in the curriculum. (Scan)

The training that begins after the age of 6 is ramped up because the prior years were there for the students to achieve and retain the basics of their education, in which the years afterwards would be considered their "real" training.


At the end of the day, I consider the scaling on Shiro > Yagami to be based heavily on assumption rather than hard proof. The 4th > 5th gen narrative simply isn't good enough to prove anything, as one could use your argument to say a random 6 year old from the 4th gen could easily beat the likes of Yagami, which is illogical in every facet.

Anyways, we should definitely make another forum to discuss this. I just needed to make a response here.

 

[MCH2]

The problem here is that the training of gen 5 isn't described. You're talking about the difference between the generations when that difference isn't even quantifiable since we do not have that given information on the 5th generation.

The biggest issue that you're forgetting to acknowledge here is that both Yuki and Shiro still dropped out at a young age. Meaning that the 6-8 year gap that Ichika and Yagami have on Shiro and Yuki means that they very well could've caught upto or surpassed their level of ability.

That's why I talked about the unquantifiable nature of the 4th generation's narrative when compared to the 5th's, as we do not know what the exact difference between these characters were in regards to their physical education.

Yeah... no proof, so there's no point in attempting to scale the difference between the generations in this manner.

Yet this gets contradicted later on when Suzukake speaks at a much later date that he predicted all the students would drop out in the middle of their ninth year in the curriculum. (Scan)

The training that begins after the age of 6 is ramped up because the prior years were there for the students to achieve and retain the basics of their education, in which the years afterwards would be considered their "real" training.


At the end of the day, I consider the scaling on Shiro > Yagami to be based heavily on assumption rather than hard proof. The 4th > 5th gen narrative simply isn't good enough to prove anything, as one could use your argument to say a random 6 year old from the 4th gen could easily beat the likes of Yagami, which is illogical in every facet.

Anyways, we should definitely make another forum to discuss this. I just needed to make a response here.

At the end of the day, Shiro has 4 pages of screentime so no matter where you scale him, there are assumptions and room for different interpretations either way. regardless, we know enough about his fighting ability for him to be considered pretty high up the food chain.

Level 4-5 are the human limit, and Level 6 resulted in a total wipeout. Shiro trained and thrived in the equivalent of level 10+, until he decides to leave on his own accord. The entire purpose of the 4th gen was to destroy the sample to figure out where human limits lay.

Narratively I’d say saying Shiro >> Yagami is easy given one trained under difficulty 4 and the other under difficulty beta and how Shiro thrived in the 4th gen.

Also Yuki isn’t 6 but 7-8. Shiro is 8-9. Either way I agree on Yuki.