Cradle Verse Addition

[ObberGobb]

Cradle is a fantasy book series by American author Will Wight. It follows Wei Shi Lindon as he works to grow stronger and save his homeland from destruction. It is primary a Progression Fantasy, so it has a high focus on fighting and increasing power. I quite love these books, and have been working on and off on creating profiles for them for a couple of months now. However, having 11 books makes this quite an expansive verse. Spoilers for every book. If you haven't, I'd recommend reading them.

​

Calcs and Values​

AP​

Dreadgod Tier
1. Bleeding Phoenix stretches from horizon to horizon
2. Wandering Titan wades through mountains like sand

Monarch Tier
1. Malice crumbles a mountain by adjusting her stance
2. Malice detonates a mountain-sized tree
3. Malice reduces a mountain to a spray of rubble

Sage/Herald Tier (This value, or 1/8th Monarch value based on Eight-Man Empire, whichever is higher)
1. Sword Sage cuts a mountain in half

Underlord Tier
1. Eithan shakes the ground for miles by gathering a technique
2. Jai Daishou levels fortress walls

Highgold Tier
1. Cassias shatters a stone block bigger than himself

Speed​

Monarch Tier
1. Northstrider flies a hundred miles (No timeframe is given, but it's during a battle, so it's probably over a short period of time)

Underlord Tier
1. Author states Underlords can dodge bullets

As you can see, I don't have many speed feats. I'd appreciate help finding some, especially for higher tier characters.

Characters​

Here are the characters I have been working on:

• Lindon
• Yerin
• Eithan
• Northstrider
• Malice
• Suriel
• Daruman
• Silent King
• Fury
• Bleeding Phoenix
• Wandering Titan

Of these, the one I am closest to completing is Lindon. The rest are coming along. All of them are in pretty early drafts.

Characters I think deserve pages, but I don't really want to make right now:

• Red Faith
• Eight-Man Empire
• Reigan Shen
• Mercy
• Ziel
• Jai Long
• Charity

Conclusion​

I'd appreciate any help people would be willing to give in finding new feats (especially speed), calcing the feats that I already have, creating new character profiles, and feedback on what I currently have done.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I won't be able to help much, I'm afraid, but this is looking very good! Keep up with the good work!

If you need any help to get any CRTs checked, I'm all ears.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I am pretty sure there is a decent respect thread containing feats in NF

 

[ObberGobb]

Sorry, what's NF?

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Narutoforums, a site where people often compile calculations and respect threads for characters.

 

[ObberGobb]

Just to clarify, statements like "could destroy a hemisphere with no one to stop him" are pretty unusable for scaling, right? I found a respect thread on ComicVine where they scale Lindon to Large Planet level based on that statement, but my thought is that even a City level character could destroy a hemisphere over time, so that feat can't be used. Am I correct in this?

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Can't Heralds also destroy the entire Hemisphere according to Northstrider?

“It’s not as simple a situation as you believe,” Northstrider went on, which was one of the few times Lindon had heard him continue a topic of his own volition. “How many lives do we preserve by minimizing conflict between one another? If we all left, then the first Herald to advance could annihilate an entire hemisphere of the planet with no one to keep them in check.”

Worth a calc I guess.

 

[ObberGobb]

My thought is that Northstrider just meant that in that situation, where there is one person more powerful than anyone else on the planet, they could just rampage across the world and no one could stop them. Also, if this is the part of the book I'm thinking of, he's referring to a Herald advancing to Monarch (As he is trying to convince Lindon that leaving Monarchs on Cradle is good for the balance of power).

 

[ObberGobb]

Anyone willing to help do the calcs for the feats I listed?

Edit: A person has volunteer

 

[ObberGobb]

Bump

 

[ObberGobb]

I want to hear people's thoughts on this. I have three proposals for the tiering of High and Top Tiers:

1. Dreadgod's scale to a statement of the Bleeding Phoenix potentially destroying all the Desolate Wilds if it crashed. This feat is currently being recalced, and will probably be somewhere between Large Country level and Multi-Continent level. Monarchs downscale from this, and Heralds/Sages scale to 1/8th the value.

2. My second proposal is to only have Dreadgods scale to that feat, and have Monarchs scale to their own.

3. However, Lindon only says that it might have been able to. If you don't want to use that feat, then my other proposal is to ignore that feat entirely and use different ones. Basically every other feat is Tier 7, and will end up with Dreadgods and Monarchs being somewhere between 7-B and High 7-A. Heralds/Sages will again scale to 1/8th the value.

Thoughts?

 

[ObberGobb]

Bump

 

[ObberGobb]

Also, update:

Judge Tiers are Universe level+ (Multiple statements of being able to destroy Iterations)

Monarchs and Dreadgods are Continent level (Based on Bleeding Phoenix calc)

Sages, Heralds, and Archlords are Large Country level (1/8th Bleeding Phoenix calc, as with their special armor, the Eight-Man Empire, a group of eight Sages and Heralds, can pool their power to reach the level of a Monarch)

Underlords are City Block level (Based on Eithan calc)

Everyone below is Wall level (Based on Cassias calc and a statement of Irons being able to punch through walls)

That seem good?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

seems fine

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I think there's a few things to add to the power section for Stages like Sage and Herald. There's a lot more but I want to essentially focus on the additional powers based off context for the Sage commands and Herald powers though I'll bring up other stuff about other specific characters and Advancement stages later when I get all the scans.

Herald: Concept manipulation(type 3), Spatial Manipulation, Limited reality warping and law manipulation via Herald strength; Limited invulnerability(to forces not literally imbued with "Will"), Power nullification, Invulnerability negation, Incorporeality(In spirit form) resistance to power negation

Dread gods should also have the same abilities outlined in the Herald section as they are essentially Heralds themselves

Sage: Concept Manipulation(Type 1), Law Manipulation and reality warping via Willpower/Authority; Existence erasure(Monarchs are capable of conceptually removing objects),Power Nullification, Invulnerability Negation, Deconstruction, Possible Vector Manipulation, paralysis induction(Via "Hold" though admittedly I'm unsure if this is the case since it also slows the mind and even stops non living things) via Sage Commands

 

[ObberGobb]

Seems pretty good so far. I'll hold on a couple of questions I have about them until you get the scans.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Seems pretty good so far. I'll hold on a couple of questions I have about them until you get the scans.

The scans for the stuff above are in the links basically so you can ask any questions you have about what I've already outlined when I mean get all the scan's it because there's a lot of other stuff I want to provide for specific characters and even other stages of advancement

 

[ObberGobb]

Oh nice. Well, that basically answered all my questions. I'll go ahead and add that to the Sandbox and to all the relevant characters.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I edited my original post with some extra stuff that I had forgotten:

• For Heralds: Incorporeality
• For Sages: Deconstruction, Vector Manipulation, Paralysis induction

but here I'll basically be talking about the basic sacred arts and some context I think should be different.

I'm not sure the description of sacred arts as magic is quite accurate since power systems are often referred to as "Energy systems" by those beyond the world like the Abidan/Vroshir and in the sacred arts madra is more akin to spiritual energy.

But also I think it would be better if sacred arts was separated into Basic and Lord realm due to the sheer amount of abilities added at these stages and here are some additional powers which are relevant(The links are to the sources like the first time)

Basic: Limited Law manipulation via Madra, limited instinctive reaction(to death manipulation), Elemental Manipulation(with Ruler techniques but varies based on the users Madra aspects), Soul Manipulation, Paralysis Induction, Fear Induction via Spiritual Pressure power nullification(sacred artists can disperse attacks from those significantly weaker than them on contact), Immortality(Type 7. Sacred artists leave their souls behind as spiritual entities called remnants upon death) resistance to Soul manipulation, sound manipulation, durability negation(can resist internal attacks).

Lord realms: Improved Element manipulation(Corresponding elements of all madra aspects), Statistic amplification and Power bestowal via Soulfire; Law manipulation, Power nullification and supernatural willpower(can imbue "Will" into attacks) resistance to power nullification via Willpower; Resistance to concept manipulation, Law manipulation and reality warping(can resist sage workings), Bfr and death manipulation.

I'll probably be able to get the scan for the ability additions for specific characters later and start working on that

 

[ObberGobb]

Also, looking at the "Break" command scan, Heralds have much higher regen than I initially thought. I had them listed as Low-Mid, but if Xorrus regened herself from being turned into sand, its much higher than that. Seems somewhere between High-Mid and Mid-High.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Oh great catch, I'd completely missed that.

If being reduced to sand is comparable to dust in the Mid-High guidelines then it would fit comfortably there, if not then High-Mid seems fine

 

[ObberGobb]

That's my thought as well.

By the way, do you think that Judge-level characters should by default get all the abilities of a Sage, since they are far more proficient in manipulating the Way?

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

That's my thought as well.

By the way, do you think that Judge-level characters should by default get all the abilities of a Sage, since they are far more proficient in manipulating the Way?

Definitely they basically use will and authority(Though judges Authority was once called Transcendent authority implying it operates to a greater degree) and some of them like ozriel started out from cradle and have confirmed Icons(The broom Icon and the Death icon) already

 

[ObberGobb]

Yeah, I already have Herald and Sage abilities listed for Ozriel, as he was once a Monarch on Cradle. I'll add at least the Sage abilities to the Judge Tiers then.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Yeah that sound completely fine. I've started getting the scan for specific characters and I'll post the stuff I got for Lindon and suriel later today.

One thing to also consider is what WOG is acceptable. Will has given a lot of statements over the years and some of it has to do with "Cradle character" vs X non cradle character but considering he likely doesn't have the other character where they are on the wiki and other discrepancies I think it's acceptable to consider scaling using statements specifically from Non willverse characters vs Will verse characters from him as not reliable or usable. Though any external info from them can be like if he gives some context of the way a certain power within cradle or used by a cradle character works.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

One things that I'm unsure of is how to handle the Elemental Manipulation of soulfire because it basically allows for aura control of all aspects of Madra so essentially:

• Fire Manipulation via Fire madra
• Water Manipulation via Water Madra
• Air Manipulation via Wind Madra
• Earth Manipulation via Earth Madra
• Light Manipulation via Light Madra
• Shadow Manipulation via Shadow Madra
• Blood Manipulation via Blood Madra
• Kinetic energy manipulation via Force & Sword Madra

I'm excluding the Madra types that deal with intangible concepts for now(Destruction Madra, Life Madra, Death Madra, Dream Madra & Hunger Madra) since we haven't got really too much context for Ruler techniques which use any of them purely

Would all of this be listed on a every profile Lord level and above?

 

[ObberGobb]

I'm not sure. Personally, I think that they should only be listed on characters who have demonstrated the use of that type of Madra. So Yerin would get Blood Manipulation, but not Lindon. Maybe put a note on every profile saying that they can theoretically use it, but simply haven't shown it. Or we could just list "Elemental Manipulation" with the explanation clarifying that they can theoretically do all these things, but don't necessarily have proficiency in it.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I think it's more about the mechanics of soulfire because it's described as the union of all aura and according to Eithan allows weak control of all aura(which is not combat effective at underlord atleast) and aura allows control of the corresponding naturally occurring element(which is how ruler techniques work.

That's the thing Lindon has used soulfire to access stuff like Blood Aura to manipulate flesh before and Yerin has used Water and Force aura to manipulate water and kinetic energy and most people by like overlord and above fly and manipulate items using wind aura.

Yeah the second option seems more appropriate. They aren't as good at manipulating their main element when using soulfire so it works the best

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I think it would be better if I got the stuff for the Abidan characters before moving on to the regular ones since it's only 3 that you are focusing on now:

So I managed to get the scans for Daruman first:

Daruman: Causality Manipulation, Biology Manipulation, Chaos Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Concept Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Summoning, Reality Warping, Precognition, Fate Manipulation, Mind Manipulation(can affect at minimum a billion people); Resistance to Fate Manipulation, Precognition(Without Origin shroud), retrocognition, Existence Erasure, Corruption, Transmutation, Concept Manipulation, Law Manipulation and Reality Warping(Can resist judges authority).

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Some additions to Daruman: Absorption, Sealing, Madness Manipulation(Type 2), Sense Manipulation, Acausality(type 4) and resistance to Time manipulation.

Now to Ozriel, These are essentially more in-depth explanations and extra examples to some of the general powers he has as well as additional ones

Ozriel: Concept Manipulation, Death Manipulation, Soul Manipulation and Causality Manipulation, Power nullification, Existence erasure, Regeneration negation(Mid-Godly, could potentially kill Daruman), Invulnerability and Forcefield creation, Multilocation, Spatial Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Attack Reflection.

Resistance to Existence erasure, Transmutation and Corruption(Is adapted to the Void), Probability Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Sealing and Void Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and precognition, Possible Time Manipulation, Power nullification, Biology Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Sense Manipulation;(can fight Daruman without succumbing to any of such effects from him) Extrasensory Perception Manipulation, Power copying and stealing, Madness Manipulation(type 2)

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Before getting to Suriel I think we should work out the verse mechanics of stuff like "The Way/The Way Between World" & "The Void" as well as the powers that would be generally granted to user of it. In a kind of summary for the "Terminology section" in relation to verse high tiers and also the general "Abilities Section"

The Way/The Way Between Worlds: The basis for all existence and the cradle cosmology. Universes(often called iterations) exist in branch's of the way and it serves as the basis for Existence, consistent Physics/Laws, Causality and Fate.

The Void: The infinite expanse of "Pure Nonexistence" outside of the way. When worlds get corrupted by Chaos and lose their connection to the way they crumble and fall into "The Void" losing their connection to Fate and Causality as well as consistent laws/physics.

General Fiend Abilities: Law Manipulation and Reality warping, Sense Manipulation, Acausality(type 4), Absorption.

Also do you want me to start helping edit the sandbox to implement already agreed upon stuff from here or are you fine just doing it alone

 

[ObberGobb]

I can do it alone. I'll definitely expand the "Terminology" section on the verse page I have. I'll probably add explanations for Madra as well. But if you want, feel free to start making profiles for other characters and stuff.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Aight now for Suriel

Suriel: Causality Manipulation, Death Manipulation, Law Manipulation.

I'm gonna start getting scans for the regular characters now(Lindon, Yerin etc.) but another thing I wanna ask is how do you plan on handling the scaling based powers/resistance additions? Like for instance Daruman has a few passive effects like his biology manipulation, Mind manipulation and time manipulation etc. while Ozriel and Suriel can fight him without succumbing to the effects.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I'm getting scans for Lindon and the rest of the character I think need additions but before that I want to get your input on the following:

1. Madra as spiritual energy and general soul manipulation: So a pretty prevalent concept in Cradle is that a Madra is spiritual energy that a persons soul is composed which leads to many additions including: Pure Madra attacks being soul destruction/damage, Pure Madra being spiritual energy negation, most characters gaining resistance to soul manipulation, spiritual pressure being soul manipulation etc.
2. Herald Invulnerability addition: The addition of invulnerability(with the exception of attacks imbued with will) as a power to heralds outlined by Yerin in dreadgod and certain WOG from Will
3. Dreadgod Physiology=Heralds physiology: What are your thoughts on the addition of all the associated powers of heralds to the dreadgods

And separately the order of the monarch/dreadgod AP scaling. The feat they are scaling from isn't the pheonix's feat it's Northstriders. I went back to give it a read and it is him punching the Pheonix that sent it down with enough force to destroy the desolate wilds So monarchs would scale directly to that feat while dreadgods(barring the Silent King) would scale above it.

 

[ObberGobb]

I'm fine with 1 and 2, but could you link the scans for the Herald = Dreadgod physiology? Also, good point about the Bleeding Phoenix thing. I'm not sure if that will affect tiering at all, but I'l definitely make note of it on the verse page.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Basically it's from a WOG explaining the relation between herald, dreadbeast and dreadgod physiology. Dreadbeasts are like attempted heralds done incorrectly which fail while dreadgods are attempted heralds done incorrectly but in such a way that it leads to the same result as heralds either way

 

[ObberGobb]

In that case, it does seem like the Dreadgods should get the abilities of a Herald

 

[ObberGobb]

Do you know of any speed feats for the Judge Tiers?

 

[ObberGobb]

Ok, I think I might have found one. The big battle between the Abidan and the Vroshir in Reaper took place in the "blink of a mortal eye." During this time, one of the Silverlords swing a weapon made of several stars the smashed through a few planets.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Ok, I think I might have found one. The big battle between the Abidan and the Vroshir in Reaper took place in the "blink of a mortal eye." During this time, one of the Silverlords swing a weapon made of several stars the smashed through a few planets.

Yeah thats a good one, In that same fight there also another silverlord using Lightning that destroys several stars(so obviously travels between them) which the fox reacts to

In the Makiel and Suriel vs Daruman fight in bloodline Makiel diverts one of his attack which erases thousands of stars