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Manipulating space-time does not translate to manipulating an entire space-time continuum.
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Culex: Back to Low 2-C
- Thread starter DatOneWeeb
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- bowser culex mario mario bros
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So do you agree with Culex being upgraded to Low 2-C?
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- #203
Why wouldn't this be the case? When Culex refers to both, he refers to all of it, not some of it.
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Read the context before coming to conclusions.
Matthew: I'm fine with him having space-time manipulation, that much is clear, but that doesn't translate to "Can destroy universes".
To which in the very next post right after it he says:
Dino Ranger Black: That is true as well.
So he agrees with Matt that having space-time manipulation doesn't mean Low 2-C.
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He's just saying that he has control over space-time. Without context that just gives space-time manipulation. I already cited in these very threads examples of characters who are described as "Masters of space time" who are very weak.
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- #206
"He's just saying that he has control over space-time."
Matt if you agree he has control over space and time, that's agreeing with me in that he has power over a time-space continuum. You outright said, "Manipulating space-time does not translate to manipulating an entire space-time continuum." You uh, kinda just sided with me, lol. Having control over and inheriting time and creation would mean manipulation, especially when he refers to it as his power.
Matt if you agree he has control over space and time, that's agreeing with me in that he has power over a time-space continuum. You outright said, "Manipulating space-time does not translate to manipulating an entire space-time continuum." You uh, kinda just sided with me, lol. Having control over and inheriting time and creation would mean manipulation, especially when he refers to it as his power.
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No I'm not, don't put words in my mouth. Once again you are treating a single interpretation of the phrase as the objective truth. None of the JP quotes indicate universal scale.
Yes. And Culex manipulating space-time doesn't mean he's Low 2-C. It's what I said. Where's the lie?
And this is ignoring the fact that the statements are 100% unproven and interpretative, being unnaceptable on their own.
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- #208
"None of the JP quotes indicate universal scale."
Culex: "Across time, from this world’s beginning to its end, I am the inheritor of the ultimate of Two." "Come forth, o power that rules over all creation!!"
Yes, it would be a universal scale, no idea how it would be lesser.
"Yes. And Culex manipulating space-time doesn't mean he's Low 2-C. It's what I said. Where's the lie?"
Because if you say what Culex says means he can manipulate something, then all I have to prove is that he is referring to everything. Which I did above. Thanks.
"And this is ignoring the fact that the statements are 100% unproven and interpretative, being unnaceptable on their own."
We aren't going over the "no statement" rule again, as it is your views and not the wiki. Even the people against it do not agree with this idea.
Culex: "Across time, from this world’s beginning to its end, I am the inheritor of the ultimate of Two." "Come forth, o power that rules over all creation!!"
Yes, it would be a universal scale, no idea how it would be lesser.
"Yes. And Culex manipulating space-time doesn't mean he's Low 2-C. It's what I said. Where's the lie?"
Because if you say what Culex says means he can manipulate something, then all I have to prove is that he is referring to everything. Which I did above. Thanks.
"And this is ignoring the fact that the statements are 100% unproven and interpretative, being unnaceptable on their own."
We aren't going over the "no statement" rule again, as it is your views and not the wiki. Even the people against it do not agree with this idea.
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This is just his hype, and the "ultimate of two"'s meaning is very vague personally. I already addressed this several times already, assuming this quote means he has universal power is ridiculous. This is just going on a loop now.
You didn't prove anything. Culex is just saying he has power over space-time. He's just hyping himself with no proof or feats to show his power. He isn't getting upgraded from this.
I am not opposed to statements. I am opposed to statements without proof. Don't strawman me. Plenty of people have agreed with me that these statements are way way too uncertain to upgrade anything.
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- #210
No sir, the guide itself gives us indication in that Culex isn't just boosting himself, so we can use that as a base that his claims are legit. The ultimate two is referring to time time from start to end, which he says very clearly. It's just another way of saying all of time.
Read previous posts as I already addressed the whole statements argument and so have many others, including peeps against it.
Not a strawman, a statement with proof is the equivalent of only seeing the visual feat itself and using that as the main proof, statement as secondary proof. Your base claim is denying the general statements for a tier alone, even if blatant as argued before, and the feats are the way to go, which people agreed on. Others were claiming on it just being vague, which was already discussed and seemed to be moved on at this point. And the only debate here will be is it on a Low 2-C range. And my answer is, yes it is!
Overall I think the threads going pretty positive after what Matt said, heh.
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We're not using the Nintendo Power quote, that has already been decided. Only the Japanese Language text.
The "referring to beginning to end" is just your interpretation. I think he's just talking about the "ultimate of two" to refer to the second dimension, but that is also my interpretation. The quote is to vague and broad to say anything qualitative about it.
I don't care if other people disagree, they didn't present arguments and neither should you. I"ve been going over every single thing raised about statements and none of which you say contradicts or disprove my stance, and the stance of other Staff Members: Unproven statements aren't sufficient to upgrade characters.
It's the literal definition of a strawman. YOu are just saying I'm opposed to all statements when I clarified I'm not.
Secondly, the later is untrue. A statement with proof is valid because of the proof and not the statement. In Culex's case there is no proof.
You are just going in circles and refusing to back down despite multiple people saying we aren't going to upgrade Culex based on a single word statement.
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- #212
Ah, but you see the Nintendo Power quote is basically an add-on, not a change from the game. We allow manuals and plenty of other guides such as Prima, so yes, it is allowed. It's even approved by people at Nintendo as stated in the final pages. So it's all a-okay.
It's not though. Because what else would the ultimate two be referring to? He talks about time, then he refers to time in two parts (beginning to its end), then says he's the inheritor of the ultimate two. Ultimate two is referring to the time's beginning to its end. It's pretty silly to think otherwise, even afterwards he talks about his strength. DRB also disagrees with the notion of an actual 2-D world, so that is a no no. It's not really vague, I think you make it vague since you attempt to nitpick it, when you really shouldn't.
But the people who agree with you don't agree from just a general no statement rule, it was a different reason that has been discussed. Since again, this is a wiki-wide revisions, not a specific one, regardless if your mindset is consistent with other verses. It is not something that will be accepted, unless the general wiki has a rule for it. Until then, the statements are on my side and are legit.
Because the statements you are okay with already have some type of proof, the ones you are against are statements only. Not statements with some type of proof. Didn't you say it doesn't matter if others agree with me? Seems hypocritical you yourself are starting to use it. By that logic, people agree with me, more people do actually. Overall, statements are still fine.
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Matthew seems to make sense to me. Space-time manipulation does not automatically scale to Low 2-C attack potency. It is not quantifiable in itself.
Other staff members also seem to agree with him.
Perhaps we should close this thread?
Other staff members also seem to agree with him.
Perhaps we should close this thread?
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- #214
I'd hold off a bit as very few agree with him and the argument itself seems to be changing. Dino seems to be not possibly opposed to it, though I would wait for an actual answer.
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This is based on the English Translation that has been ruled out as innacurate and unnaceptable here on this thread, and mods have been against its inclusion. So no, it's not being okay.
The two dimensions. He has power over space and time /creation of the second dimension. It makes perfect sense with the rest of his dialogue talking about the 2nd vs 3rd dimension and the power of the later. This is my interpretation of the quote. You have yours. And in our disagreement I illustrate why it is impossible to accurately analyze this.
IT's pretty silly to think otherwise, even afterwards he talks about the power of the 3rd dimension.
I can do this too, this isn't an argument, it's just confirmation bias.
I don't care. I don't believe in dimensional tiering. Culex being from a 2D world doesn't make him 11-A.
The second line is just an attempt to dismiss concern without actually addressing anything. You have looser standards that much is clear, but that doesn't make everyone who has higher standards than you nitpicker. It just makes you wide.
Strawman. This rule doesn't exist and I have never talked about it. Please stop being dishonest.
The one all staff here (besides Cal) agreed: That unproven statements like Culex shouldn't lead to upgrades. There's no evidence behind them and it's just meaningless hype that cannot be proven. You cannot prove Culex's statements because they are all that exists.
Dishonesty. The wiki at large agrees with my position, unproven statements aren't fit for upgrades, this is reflected by the actual staff in this thread vs regular users who accept statements to upgrade their faves.
Yes, the thing that matters is the proof behind the statement and not the statement itself.
Culex's statements have no proof therefore they are unworthy of being used.
Unproven statements won't upgrade a character.
The later is just your opinion and not the wiki standard.
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I don't think we should close this thread just yet. Blaze does bring some valid points.
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No, you were trying to change the argument to focus on what the statements mean. It's a common debating tactic, attempting to control the field of the discussion, but that is only a distraction. It doesn't change my position:
My argument is the same. The statements themselves, regardless of what they mean, are utterly unquantifiable and unproven and therefore not fit to be used at all in a page. Let alone for an upgrade.
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What points do you think are valid and why?
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That is irrelevant. The page's AP is writing tendentiously to imply a tier that is not there.
Soupywolf5
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- #222
However what you forget was the final pages. "The Super Mario RPG Player's Guide from the pros at Nintendo holds all the answers." Meaning the information was approved by people at Nintendo, so its allowed. The only one against it was Amelia, who never made a response after I posted this statement.
Right, which I addressed the 2nd dimension being a thing isn't. A 4th wall joke that is referring to Final Fantasy's 2-D style. Once again, it is not an interpretation.
Afterwards he refers to his power over all of creation. After the fight he refers to the 3rd dimension as "Love, friendship, joy", which doesn't sound very 3-D to me. So as I said above, the dimension talk isn't real.
I disagree with the 2-D existing at all regardless for reasons above. Except not really, we already allow statements. This isn't a me thing, this is something that is generally allowed. You are the only one using this as an argument. It's pretty nitpicky when you want every detail that translates over to just wanting a visual feat.
It does, we allow statements. I even previously gave an example that was blatant (If someone says "I have the power to destroy all of time and space", statement only, me asking "How do they do it? Timeframe? Does it scale?" is asking for a visual feat. That statement should be obvious on what they meant, but nitpicking for every minor detail just invalidates basically any type of statement. So you never argued the statements, you made a loophole to start from scratch) was an argument I used. You responded with "These "nitpicks" are absolutely necessary. If other verses get Low 2-C based on similarly iffy statements than that makes those other verses wrong as well". So it's still not a strawman.
An argument I have discussed countless times that boils down to you saying no statements should be allowed at all without something backing it up.
Want a recount, or? Who are the staff besides you and Efi? You have a tendency to call others biased, so meh.
Blaze's earlier argument FRA.
I would like some other input please, it is ad nauseum at this point.
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- #223
Either works, as long as Low 2-C is still there.
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We all already address it. It doesn't matter.
Nintendo of America isn't Nintendo of Japan. Kep was also against it as was Dino.
Who the hell cares it's a reference. The entire character is a reference. You're so afraid of the character being downgraded to 11-A. Stop it, nobody believes in dimensional tiering anymore.
This only confirms it not being literal. You're outright agreeing with me that the quotes aren't talking about literal universal stuff. It's more metaphorical.
That's just your opinion.
Yes, we do. I explained it several times. Stop strawmaning me. What we don't allow are UNPROVEN statements such as Culex's.
This is what you cannot acknowledge, it has no proof.
Liar. Plenty of people share my sentiment. Just because you are in a comfort zone where everyone shares your views on statements doesn't mean it reflects the entire wiki.
These aren't nitpicks. These are all 100% valid concerns that ideally should be raised towards every character who was ever upgraded via statements in the wiki. If the statements can't be sufficiently answered or proven or explained, then they shouldn't have been upraded themselves.
The rest of your gish-galloping is just subjective opinions presnted as fact. The talk about the statement being "obvious" is evidently not the case or else there wouldn't be necessary to have a discussion.
And it is a strawman. You are STILL insisting that I am against all statements when I'm clarifying over and over that I'm not. I'm beginning to suspect your honesty.
Strawman³
But yes. Statements need EVIDENCE. There's this little something called the Burden of Proof that is the basis of discussion and the scientific method. You need to prove a positive. Other staff agreed. just because you don't understand basic rethoric rules doesn't mean they don't apply here.
YOU need to provide the proof behind the statement. That is your perogative. If you can't do it then the statement isn't accepted.
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I am going to sleep soon. I hope we can continue this thread peacefully
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- #226
Whew, I would be just repeating myself yet again. The only topic I will respond to is the guide stuff. Kep and Dino were referring to Culex's English in-game text, not the guide itself.
No one except for Amelia (who never responded), disagreed with using Nintendo Power. Cal was okay with it, and so was DDM. So Nintendo Power is allowed.
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It's not actually. The guide is just a repeat of the English Translation so it's not allowed by proxy.
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- #228
Didn't know master of time and space was a repeat. I mean if something similar exists regardless in its original text, guide still isn't bullshitting.
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@Dino_Ranger_Black @DarkDragonMedeus @GyroNutz @Starter_Pack
I would appreciate your input regarding what do you think that we should do here.
I would appreciate your input regarding what do you think that we should do here.
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- #230
And I added extra info in the thread to elaborate on the quotes. If anyone doesn't want to look for it, I can re-send them if you would like.
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I already gave my input; also, it needs to be significant levels of Space-Time reality warping to qualify. Such as resetting an entire timeline. Merging and splitting entire timelines is also a Tier 2 feat, at least 2-C depending on the number of universes being merged into one or split from one. But simply, "Controlling time" is not AP but just hax.
Also, Nintendo Power is literally a Nintendo promoted magazine and Kep was the one who argued extensively about ignoring secondary canon sources being a complaint from him. Which I already repeated, primary canon says a neutral while secondary canon says a positive equals secondary canon being fine. But Primary canon saying one thing and secondary canon saying totally different will have the primary canon take priority no matter what.
But anyway, I still don't think this is enough to qualify as tier 2 again but willing to give Blaze a chance. Could link the specific image containing the scan again? I might have forgotten the exact words.
Also, Nintendo Power is literally a Nintendo promoted magazine and Kep was the one who argued extensively about ignoring secondary canon sources being a complaint from him. Which I already repeated, primary canon says a neutral while secondary canon says a positive equals secondary canon being fine. But Primary canon saying one thing and secondary canon saying totally different will have the primary canon take priority no matter what.
But anyway, I still don't think this is enough to qualify as tier 2 again but willing to give Blaze a chance. Could link the specific image containing the scan again? I might have forgotten the exact words.
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- #232
I'll just copy and paste my previous elaborations.
Additionally DDM, you also stated, "But Japanese version basically just has Culex claiming he is the most powerful thing in all space and time and that he has dominion over the universe rather than the power to oneshot the universe". Yes, I agree that these quotes do not imply destruction, however it does do for manipulation. Basically he has power over all of reality and all of time.
The guide stated, "Before returning home, Culex would like to challenge Mario to a duel. The entire contingent, including Culex, Fire Crystal, Water Crystal, Earth Crystal, and Wind Crystal packs a whopping 12,396 HP! Don't even try to fight this master of time and space unless each member of your party has reached at least level 25."
Quote is in the section where you see Jinx.
Additionally DDM, you also stated, "But Japanese version basically just has Culex claiming he is the most powerful thing in all space and time and that he has dominion over the universe rather than the power to oneshot the universe". Yes, I agree that these quotes do not imply destruction, however it does do for manipulation. Basically he has power over all of reality and all of time.
The guide stated, "Before returning home, Culex would like to challenge Mario to a duel. The entire contingent, including Culex, Fire Crystal, Water Crystal, Earth Crystal, and Wind Crystal packs a whopping 12,396 HP! Don't even try to fight this master of time and space unless each member of your party has reached at least level 25."
Quote is in the section where you see Jinx.
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That's at the very least Universal+ range via space-time manipulation, but it may be considered debatable on whether it would scale to physical stats.
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- #235
Culex does tend to use magic (his crystals and Dark Star attacks), so I personally think it should physically scale, as his physical attacks deal a great amount of damage. He also states, "I shall fight with the utmost of my power." So he clearly isn't holding back.
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- #236
I guess I'll just ask the staff the general question: With what I recently said, does this give Culex a Low 2-C or a "possibly" Low 2-C.
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We currently scale it to physical AP of characters: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Rex_Salazar. Maybe Culex needs a bit more proof such as being able to reality warp the universe however he wants but aside from that their justifications are the same.
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Ant and Matt has made some good points. I just remembered a few characters who stated or noted to have control over time and space but their tiers are no where near close to Low 2-C. I believe we should drop the topic for now.
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- #240
Greenshifter posted an example of a character who is Low 2-C for a similar reason.
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