Danny Phantom - Human Scaling Discussion (I an't afraid of no ghost!)

[LordGriffin1000]

Been a bit since a I made a thread, but for those unaware, I've been sick, had to go to the hospital some time ago, and a few other problems. However, I wanted to get this out of the way since it's something I planned on doing some time ago but got side tracked but better late then never, let's go.

Currently, we have a specific number of humans (ghost hunters) scaling to ghosts due to feats. Here is the current blog that has their feats catalogued but it's heavily outdated. I even mentioned this with the "Note: Below are not all the feats from the humans, I have yet to grab every feat done by them." and note was added back in 2021 so you know I've been slacking lol. Anyway, I've created an updated version of the above blog and to elaborate, I wanted to post all feats that showcases that their are humans who are stronger than what would be considered "normal human" be it to a small or noticable degree through their own feats as well as scaling. I added the anti-feats section to show that their are some but those who have them are either no name humans who don't scale or their anti-feats are out numbered by their feats (an example would be Lancer, a human who has two feats of moving stone blocks that put him a Class 1 to 5 and he only has one anti-feat of being unable to break down a door).

The point for the blog as a whole was and still is, is to showcase the verse it self doesn't treat all humans as basic humans. I didn't include things like off screen feats of humans surviving something because I didn't want it to be a landslide in favor of scaling because it's better to have visual feats in my honest opinion. But I go over each feat (and anti-feat) and those of which needed context, I explained my thoughts. Generally I do think several of the humans in Danny Phantom are powerful, in the blog I post feats that either shows them performing well against ghosts in speed, strength, and especially durability, having their own feats be it slightly or moderately beyond what a human of their age, and or in general would be capable of surviving, lore even suggests several of them physically train to fight ghosts in hand to hand, and with the latest introduction of the graphic novel, we know the humans before the split (who's power caused the universe to split in two due to their war) had a power source greater than even ghost energy which was their emotions and ghosts continue to try and absorb the emotions of even current humans suggesting they still hold some power that empowers them even if they can't project it like ghosts can.

Regardless of the outcome, this is something I should have finished back in 2021 but life be a pain. If you had issue with humans scaling to ghosts, now's your chance to speak up and say if you agree or disagree. Also if I missed a feat/anti-feat that you remember, please mention it in the comments and I'll see if I can find it or explain why I didn't add it.

The end suggestions are this...

Option 1. Continue to do as we do and scale the humans who have consistent showings of being beyond that of "regular humans" and scaling to ghosts.

The blogs contents will be updated with those in the sandbox and the note at the bottom of the characters pages will still be similar...

Note: The reason [Insert Characters name] scales to such levels is due to being shown on multiple consistent occasions to be beyond normal human levels of power and portrayed as comparable to ghosts throughout the series in various statistics.

In the "Power of the Verse" section there would also be a note that states...

Note: The reason several human characters scale to ghosts is due to them being consistently shown comparable in combat on multiple occasions as well as showing feats beyond that of normal humans, with the verse itself mentioning the humans having a power source and ghosts even using the genetics of specific humans to give them noticable boosts in power.

I also revised Tucker's profile to show what it should actually look like using what's given in verse.

Here is the current profile...

Here is the revised profile...

The other characters will look similar but with their own feats added.

Agree: 5 : 1 Staff with eval rights (BlastX, Lonkitt, Propellus, Psychomaster35, Spilxson2


Option 2. Disregarde the characters feats/scaling shown as outliers in favor of the anti-feats and those of no named characters that suggest their human. (Accepted)

Following this suggestion, all the current humans that scale to ghosts will be downgraded to 10-B to 9-B since even their own high-end feats would be considered outliers if we use their anti-feats as the logic of the downgrade. They'll still have 8-A or 2-C ratings via weapons since those have their own showings.

In the "Power of the Verse" section there would also be a note that states...

Note: Despite the multiple showing of specific human characters scaling to ghosts, it has been decided that these feats are considered outliers due to several anti-feats that would suggest they are all human in terms of statistics.

This would also replace the note on the characters profiles.

Here is Tucker's revised profile (scroll past the first, the second shows what his profile would look like if we get rid of ghost scaling)

Agree: 4 : 3 Staff with eval rights (DarkDragonMedus, Eseseso, Damage3245, Maverick_Zero_X

 

[BlastX]

Nice

Obviously I agree with the first option.

 

[Lonkitt]

I think if any downgrades are gonna be given to the humans, they shouldn't be set to 10-B. Given the humans still engage in goofy cartoon shenanigans, they're definitely above 10-B

If we go with the Ghost scaling method, I suggest there at least being descriptions like "Weaker than, but can take hits from [insert characters here]" or something along those lines. Humans like Tucker and Sam by themselves are still portrayed as weaker than Ghosts. In the case of Danny Phantom's Universe, the power difference likely isn't that wide (given the instances of harming/surviving), but I feel it wouldn't be a stretch to address that in the AP sections. That being said, I feel like humans such as Valerie just outright scale to Ghosts

Maybe I'm looking into this too much, but thats my two cents on the situation


I'd say I agree with Option 1

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I used to be fine with making humans on par with ghosts, but that was before the upgrades that made everyone 2-C. I definitely agree that it's consistent for civilians to be superhuman, especially in the durability department. And perhaps some humans are comparable to Ghosts and what not, but not sure about making every single character period 2-C.

 

[BlastX]

I don't know why that it's a problem now, nobody had a problem when they were 6-C or 4-A, bring a higher tier shouldn't be much different.

 

[Lonkitt]

Yeah the scaling hasn’t changed, just the rating

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well, I used to be fine with making humans on par with ghosts, but that was before the upgrades that made everyone 2-C. I definitely agree that it's consistent for civilians to be superhuman, especially in the durability department. And perhaps some humans are comparable to Ghosts and what not, but not sure about making every single character period 2-C.

This means your problem is that it's an outlier, not the scaling? It makes no sense to be fine with scaling humans to ghosts back when they were Tier 8, 6, and even 4 but not be fine with Tier 2. The end result is the same, specific humans are scaling far beyond the capacity of what would be considered "regular human" that no ordinary human could ever hope to achieve. Unless your argument is it's an outlier as a whole?

Also I'm not sure where your got that last statement...

"but not sure about making every single character period 2-C."

Please quote exactly where I suggested every human or even ghost should scale to 2-C!? I want people to understand this, we have exactly 7 human character profiles (10 including half ghosts, not including Future Valerie because that's just older Valerie). 9 of them scale up to tier 2. That is in no way, shape or form scaling all humans in the verse to tier 2, there are countless humans and ghosts who don't even have profiles and they wouldn't make it to tier 2.

It seems that people are trying to group the entirety of the human race together as scaling to ghosts when that isn't being suggested because we don't even scale the entirety of all ghosts to tier 2, the only reason most of ghosts profiles scale that high is because that's Danny's rogues gallery that can fight or stomp him. There are countless ghosts who get floored and even run at the sight Danny and others on his level, many other ghosts need weapons or buffs to reach that level so please tell me where I suggested everyone scales to tier 2?

In the verse we are even told that the orginal humans went to war with each other and the toll it had on the universe split it in two which resulted in the creation of the human world and the Ghost Zone, their emotions were so great that the physical world could not hold it, and resulted in their spirit/emotions to be stripped from the Earth and belong to the Ghost Zone. So the oldest ghosts when they were human could cause a universal event that created two universes but a select number of current humans (who are clearly superhuman) show scaling to powerful ghosts and it's a problem because the scaling to tier 2 is too high...?

 

[Eseseso]

Option 1 seems to make sense to me.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This means your problem is that it's an outlier, not the scaling? It makes no sense to be fine with scaling humans to ghosts back when they were Tier 8, 6, and even 4 but not be fine with Tier 2. The end result is the same, specific humans are scaling far beyond the capacity of what would be considered "regular human" that no ordinary human could ever hope to achieve. Unless your argument is it's an outlier as a whole?

Also I'm not sure where your got that last statement...

"but not sure about making every single character period 2-C."

Please quote exactly where I suggested every human or even ghost should scale to 2-C!? I want people to understand this, we have exactly 7 human character profiles (10 including half ghosts, not including Future Valerie because that's just older Valerie). 9 of them scale up to tier 2. That is in no way, shape or form scaling all humans in the verse to tier 2, there are countless humans and ghosts who don't even have profiles and they wouldn't make it to tier 2.

It seems that people are trying to group the entirety of the human race together as scaling to ghosts when that isn't being suggested because we don't even scale the entirety of all ghosts to tier 2, the only reason most of ghosts profiles scale that high is because that's Danny's rogues gallery that can fight or stomp him. There are countless ghosts who get floored and even run at the sight Danny and others on his level, many other ghosts need weapons or buffs to reach that level so please tell me where I suggested everyone scales to tier 2?

In the verse we are even told that the orginal humans went to war with each other and the toll it had on the universe split it in two which resulted in the creation of the human world and the Ghost Zone, their emotions were so great that the physical world could not hold it, and resulted in their spirit/emotions to be stripped from the Earth and belong to the Ghost Zone. So the oldest ghosts when they were human could cause a universal event that created two universes but a select number of current humans (who are clearly superhuman) show scaling to powerful ghosts and it's a problem because the scaling to tier 2 is too high...?

There have been consistent statements that the stronger Heroes and Villains are, the more reluctant we should be at having various common mooks and civilian characters circular scale from them. And even Tier 4 and unsure of Tier 6 were times I felt pretty reluctant to scale to Tucker Foley or Sam Manson. And even outside of Ghosts attacks, I'm pretty sure human characters have survived falls and stuff that would warrant at least Wall level durability. I am also aware of consistent superhuman lifting feats; which doubt they'd be 10-B if they can generate force to move those objects. And obviously, Fenton works are empowered by the same UES that various Ghosts are so fine with weapons and armor scaling too. Also, one major anti-feat worth mentioning is the final episode. There was an asteroid that was about to destroy the planet that would have killed off the entire human race. I know it could be argued it's more so lack of oxygen that would kill Danny's friends rather than the force of the impact. And it would technically be an anti-feat for the Ghosts since neither Danny nor Vlad were able to stop it on their own and it took all the ghosts to make the whole planet intangible. And another anti-feat is in Ultimate Enemy in which Sam, Tucker, the Fentons, and Mr Lancer all died when the Nasty Burgers exploded.

Also, I didn't mean to strawman the OP or anything. I just saw complaints on Discord where someone linked civilian humans being 2-C in all keys which was what shocked me. I didn't check through all ghosts profiles and didn't have time since I been busy with RL work among other things IRL, but some ghosts not quite being 2-C is also something fine.

As for ancient humans, I got no complaints about them given fictions tradition of "Ancient humans were godlike compared to modern humans." And between the options, I suppose I am leaning more towards option 2, but don't mind finding other feats for non amp'd humans or some people being closer to physical strength.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

There have been consistent statements that the stronger Heroes and Villains are, the more reluctant we should be at having various common mooks and civilian characters circular scale from them.

This line of reasoning doesn't work when those "common mooks and civilian" are shown comparable to the heroes and villains in combat and show that they are above regulars.

And even Tier 4 and unsure of Tier 6 were times I felt pretty reluctant to scale to Tucker Foley or Sam Manson.

Why? Is it because they are human? Because I've already proven the verse itself doesn't completely follow that logic. If the argument is that there just "normal" then by all accounts Tier 9 and 8 scaling are also outliers.

And even outside of Ghosts attacks, I'm pretty sure human characters have survived falls and stuff that would warrant at least Wall level durability. I am also aware of consistent superhuman lifting feats; which doubt they'd be 10-B if they can generate force to move those objects.

This is true, but the issue is the logic of the downgrade is they can't be that strong because it's impossible for a human to be that strong despite scaling feats and thus that logic applies to even Wall level feats, no. That's why I suggest 10-B otherwise we'd still be rating humans as beyond the scope of normal which is the reasoning behind the downgrade in the first place.

Also, one major anti-feat worth mentioning is the final episode. There was an asteroid that was about to destroy the planet that would have killed off the entire human race. I know it could be argued it's more so lack of oxygen that would kill Danny's friends rather than the force of the impact.

I mentioned that in the blog on the anti-feats section, base assumption would be death on impact but again, I'm not saying the entire human race scale that high, only a select few people, still an anti-feat nonetheless for the selected individuals.

And it would technically be an anti-feat for the Ghosts since neither Danny nor Vlad were able to stop it on their own and it took all the ghosts to make the whole planet intangible.

You do know that meteor was a giant mass of ecto-ranium right...? As in it nullifies the power and damages any ghosts that comes into contact with it! So the ghosts couldn't stop it as it would have no-sold everything they threw at it. This isn't an anti-feat in the slightest for ghosts.

And another anti-feat is in Ultimate Enemy in which Sam, Tucker, the Fentons, and Mr Lancer all died when the Nasty Burgers exploded.

Already mentioned this too. Said explosion was fueled by sause that was so potent that a single packet getting too hot blow a large chuck out of a building and could even effect ghosts while intangible so that wasn't a normal explosion in any capacity. I still placed it as an anti-feat but using it as a basis isn't the best as we don't know what was in that explosion.

Also, I didn't mean to strawman the OP or anything. I just saw complaints on Discord where someone linked civilian humans being 2-C in all keys which was what shocked me. I didn't check through all ghosts profiles and didn't have time since I been busy with RL work among other things IRL, but some ghosts not quite being 2-C is also something fine.

Said humans have feats of scaling to the 2-C ghosts, I don't find it shocking when we are dealing with a verse in which there exist humans who are clearly not basic civilians.

As for ancient humans, I got no complaints about them given fictions tradition of "Ancient humans were godlike compared to modern humans." And between the options, I suppose I am leaning more towards option 2, but don't mind finding other feats for non amp'd humans or some people being closer to physical strength.

I'll place you down on option 2 then, though there aren't going to be much we can scale them two when majority of what they have puts them on the superhuman/ghost (lower end) spectrum of power and the option 2 is removing that type of scaling so they'd have no choice but to be reduced to 10-B to 9-C (Sam, Tucker, Valerie) 9-B at max (GIW, Maddie, Jack, Jazz).

 

[Eseseso]

Switching to being in favor of Option 2 after giving it some thought, with weapons of course remaining 2-C.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Switching to being in favor of Option 2 after giving it some thought, with weapons of course remaining 2-C.

Adding.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Also added the second option for Tucker's revised profile in the sandbox of the first, just scroll past the first.

LordGriffin1000/A Tucker Foley Joint

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Propellus]

I also agree on going for Option 1 based on Lon's sentiments, as the humans in this universe are still indeed superhuman

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is true, but the issue is the logic of the downgrade is they can't be that strong because it's impossible for a human to be that strong despite scaling feats and thus that logic applies to even Wall level feats, no. That's why I suggest 10-B otherwise we'd still be rating humans as beyond the scope of normal which is the reasoning behind the downgrade in the first place.

Just a minor note, I have also mentioned the difference between direct feats and indirect feats. Indirect feats are basically surviving attacks from a strong character or harming a durable character. Where as direct feats are basically their own physically demonstrated fates. Indirect are usually more likely to be outliers compared to direct feats. For example, Tucker or Lancer moving heavy objects are direct feats, but the humans surviving punches from powerful ghosts would be indirect feats.

Also, it's less "Because they're human" and more so "They are humans with no supernatural powers on their own and often seen as a group of wimpy pathetic geeks outside of Fenton gear."

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Just a minor note, I have also mentioned the difference between direct feats and indirect feats. Indirect feats are basically surviving attacks from a strong character or harming a durable character. Where as direct feats are basically their own physically demonstrated fates. Indirect are usually more likely to be outliers compared to direct feats. For example, Tucker or Lancer moving heavy objects are direct feats, but the humans surviving punches from powerful ghosts would be indirect feats.

That doesn't change consistency... you are basically saying it wouldn't likely matter how many times they fight ghosts, since they can't preform any direct tier 2 feats, those scaling feats will be considered outliers. Even given the sheer number of scaling feats (indirectly as you put it) those who scale (I'm referring the like 10 humans who do) will never be capable of scaling because you and I both know it's physically impossible for the likes of the main human ghost hunters to bust a damn universe because they lack the destructive capacity which we know doesn't always translate to AP but basically, the humans will forever be screwed regardless of how many "indirect feats" I find.

Also, it's less "Because they're human" and more so "They are humans with no supernatural powers on their own and often seen as a group of wimpy pathetic geeks outside of Fenton gear."

That's literally still "because they are human" you just put a little suger on it... and being considered wimpy doesn't mean anything when they physically show on multiple occasions that they are superhuman. Just because they don't snap their bully like a twig doesn't mean they are wimpy when given it's time to fight ghosts they have a consistent physical track record of keeping up with them.

So once again, the core argument is simply, they are human and thus their indirect scaling feats are considered as outliers because they still seemed portrayed as normal humans in some capacity. They lack any noticable energy system, even though emotions have become a universal power system in verse now but since they can't project it we'll assume it does nothing noticable. Pretty simple logic, I don't fully agree with it but that doesn't mean it's not logical which is why I added option 2.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I’m personally fine with option 1. Pretty sure we’ve consistently seen instances of humans (mainly ghost hunters) through powerscaling (especially in Seasons 2 & 3) harming ghosts who already scale to 2-C.

 

[omegabronic]

bump

 

[Propellus]

bump

A bit too early for that

 

[omegabronic]

A bit too early for that

sorry, what is the appropriated time?

 

[Propellus]

sorry, what is the appropriated time?

24 hours or so

 

[Propellus]

Bump

 

[Spilxson2]

I'd say that both the humans and the ghosts are 2-C but the ghosts are still stronger than the humans (or deeper into 2-C than the humans if that makes any sense).

First option I guess

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not too knowledgeable on Danny Phantom but DDM seems to make the most sense to me here, so I'll go with Option 2 as well.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'm not too knowledgeable on Danny Phantom but DDM seems to make the most sense to me here, so I'll go with Option 2 as well.

Added, thanks for the response.

 

[Propellus]

Bump

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I’m on board with Option 2 for DDM’s reasons.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Alrighty so it seems like option 2 is favored with staff evaluation votes. Will let this sit for a bit and see if the other two staff I asked to comment will give their thoughts before I update the profiles.

 

[BlastX]

I'll be honest it seems people are only going for option 2 out of incredulity for the humans being that strong

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'll be honest it seems people are only going for option 2 out of incredulity for the humans being that strong

Basically

Regardless while more admins staff are in favor of option 2, DarkDragonMedus and Lonkitt think we can still at least scale them to their own feats.

I think if any downgrades are gonna be given to the humans, they shouldn't be set to 10-B. Given the humans still engage in goofy cartoon shenanigans, they're definitely above 10-B

Well, I used to be fine with making humans on par with ghosts, but that was before the upgrades that made everyone 2-C. I definitely agree that it's consistent for civilians to be superhuman, especially in the durability department. And perhaps some humans are comparable to Ghosts and what not, but not sure about making every single character period 2-C.

So even with ghost scaling off the table for their normal statistics, they'd still be 9-C (Tucker and Sam kicking down a door, and a few other things) to 9-B (GIW busting through brick walls, and more) same goes for their durability, and they would still class 5 in Season 2 for Mr. Lancers stone block lifting feats, along with Jack lifting the giant monster and so on. We just ignore their feats that involve scaling to ghosts.

However, their equipment and weapons still will be buffed to 2-A (heck yeah!), so Valerie will still have her statistics but only when she's in the suit since her equipment was made to fight ghosts. And since we are only scaling equipment, Fenton Peeler armor will scale to the statistics of ghosts since they are shown to use it as a means of combat in Season 3 and in the graphic novel despite it not mentioning any buffs but that's the best we can do.

So the humans (ghost hunters) aren't losing out on too much at the end of the day, they're just losing a metric ton of scaling feats to ghosts. I'll tell you this though, if we get another novel or whatever and it mentions humans are comparable to ghosts I'll make that thread in an instant. As for now, I'll update the sandbox of the second option for Tucker's revised profile using the humans none ghost scaling feats.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Alright, I've updated Tucker's second option in the sandbox that has been accepted. Scroll past the first.

LordGriffin1000/A Tucker Foley Joint

vsbattles.fandom.com

The human characters will look like that, their standard statistics and then their statistics with equipment. I'll update the profiles when able

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, I've updated Tucker's second option in the sandbox that has been accepted. Scroll past the first.

LordGriffin1000/A Tucker Foley Joint

vsbattles.fandom.com

The human characters will look like that, their standard statistics and then their statistics with equipment. I'll update the profiles when able

Looks great.

 

[Ayewale]

I don't know why that it's a problem now, nobody had a problem when they were 6-C or 4-A, bring a higher tier shouldn't be much different.

This isn't true, it's just that the problem becomes more self-evident with higher ratings. Every single human being 4-A is about as dumb as them being 2-C.

 

[Lonkitt]

Alright, I've updated Tucker's second option in the sandbox that has been accepted. Scroll past the first.

LordGriffin1000/A Tucker Foley Joint

vsbattles.fandom.com

The human characters will look like that, their standard statistics and then their statistics with equipment. I'll update the profiles when able

Sweet, a 9-B feat. I assumed that be a realistic bare minimum for dudes like Sam and Tucker

 

[LordGriffin1000]

This isn't true, it's just that the problem becomes more self-evident with higher ratings. Every single human being 4-A is about as dumb as them being 2-C.

When the humans are treated as special that's not always the case. Countless verses have "humans" being strong as heck even when it's illogical. It's just Danny Phantom is stuck in the mix of having not enough evidence in the eyes of some people (which is ok). You not being able to accept that doesn't make it dumb. Heck verses like Pokemon have "humans" that we rank with possibly infinite speed reactions.

 

[Lonkitt]

When the humans are treated as special that's not always the case. Countless verses have "humans" being strong as heck even when it's illogical. It's just Danny Phantom is stuck in the mix of having not enough evidence in the eyes of some people. You not being able to accept that doesn't make it dumb.

Yeah, Griffin isn't wrong at all. There's always context to take into account. While some verses do treat humans are far far below that of the main characters, some verses just kinda settle with them being slightly weaker, if not just as strong as some of the heavy hitters

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Sweet, a 9-B feat. I assumed that be a realistic bare minimum for dudes like Sam and Tucker

The door kick is 9-C, it would be 9-B if it was a full on metal door. Tucker and Sam are 9-C, Jack and Maddie are 9-B for scaling to adult humans like GIW agents who just bust through brick walls in Season 3.

 

[Lonkitt]

The door kick is 9-C, it would be 9-B if it was a full on metal door. Tucker and Sam are 9-C, Jack and Maddie are 9-B for scaling to adult humans like GIW agents who just through walls.

Oh, I was referring to the Dash feat. I knew the door feat was 9-C

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Oh, I was referring to the Dash feat. I knew the door feat was 9-C

That's ghost scaling. Which is why it's on the option 1 draft since Dash did that while possessed.

 

[Lonkitt]

Also, minor recommendation. For Tucker's intelligence, I would just remove the "Average, Extraordinary Genius with Technology" part to straight up "Extraordinary Genius". I know that isn't related to the thread, but his feats are more than enough to warrant that