DBS BoG Base Goku having "absorbed SSG into Base" is false and the article about it is wrong.

[PFM18]

Goku's "Limit-Break" is a simple rage boost. A rage boost allows you to exert power higher than what is your normal limitations. Then it goes back to normal. Always. There's literally never been a permanent rage boost in the history of Dragon Ball. You'd have to prove that this is the first and only permanent rage boost if you are going to claim Base Goku>his previous SSJ self that was relative to SSJ.

-Gohan gets a huge rage boost vs Raditz, goes back to normal afterwards.

-Vegeta gets a huge rage boost vs Beerus, goes back to normal afterwards.

-Goku SCREAMS "SHUT UP!" 4 times consecutively, angry that Beerus is deciding his limits. Then he gets a rage boost....and goes back to normal afterwards. (Though his new "normal" is that his SSJ form is now much stronger than his SSG form was.)

The entire conversation about Goku having "absorbed SSG" occurred while Goku was in his SSJ state. Goku drops out of SSG, and then Goku and Beerus both explicitly state that he has lost no power. This establishes that he had a power-up such that his SSJ=SSG now. Therefore, since Base=SSJ/50, this means that at that time his Base was 1/50th of SSG. Goku does improve, and surpass SSG in his SSJ form, and his Base is till 1/50th of that, remaining below SSG. There's literally nothing suggesting that his "absorption" power-up was such that his Base=SSG, it was clearly explained to be SSJ=SSG at the time. And then I already explained that his Base punching the SoD at the end of BoG is simply a temporary rage boost, hence the screaming "SHUT UP!!" 4 times consecutively, infuriated that Beerus would attempt to place limitations on him.

Before anybody brings up the movies, they are irrelevant. They are not relevant to the DBS anime's continuity, the movie continuity is simply a different continuity, and the anime had retellings that literally exist to replace them.

Before anybody brings up that Gohan/Krillin state during RoF that Base Goku had the highest ki he had ever felt, so his Base must have surpassed his SSJ self that was relative to BoG SSG, that was a mistranslation. The official translations say nothing of the sort. Not even close.

Then in RoF the narrator says only upon going SSB, goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God. This implies that prior to that moment, nobody had surpassed Super Saiyan God. (though going SSJ would also have surpassed BoG SSG at the time.)

If what this article implies is true, being stronger than SSG wouldn't even be considered significant. BoG SSG would be fodder by that point.

BoG SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>BoG SSG>BoG Base Goku(post-ritual) is undeniably true in BoG.

 

[PFM18]

wait is this too long?

 

[AwkguyDB]

I think you should read this blog Goku wasn't just getting a temporary rage boost, his limits were constantly being superseded with new burst of power even while in his SSJG form.

 

[AKM sama]

I also addressed this on the other thread and I won't repeat myself. The super saiyan god power was constantly increasing throughout the fight with each little bout between Goku and Beerus, and when Beerus asked whether it had reached its limits many times over the course of several episodes, Goku proved him wrong everytime. Same with the last time involving SoD and I've gone in detail why it wasn't a rage boost. Just the usual increase in power and breaking of limits as implied by the context and evidences in further episodes in RoF.

Plus, this has been discussed to exhaustion many times over the years and there's even a rule against bringing this topic up without any new info.

 

[Akreious]

Didn't Beerus flat out say that Goku made SSG'S power his own and internalized it, AKA his base form should have it permanently now? That's pretty blatant of a statement tbh. There is zero reason why his SS form should be the thing to internalize it since the whole point of the training bits in RoF was to show Goku and Vegeta learning how to truly use that internalized power.

SSB is the direct result of using that internal power in conjunction with SS.

 

[KLOL506]

AKM is right. This thread basically brings nothing new to the table.

 

[PFM18]

I'll just re-post what I said in the original thread.

Happened in the movie, at least. Solid 2-3 minutes of Base Goku post-SSG fighting Beerus on a still-even playing field in the cave sequence. Can't say for the anime, I never felt particularly inclined to watch basically the same plot as the movie, but needlessly altered (and poorly animated at the time of release, to boot). As for my point, my point is that RoF/post-SSG base Goku >/= SSG, RoF/post-SSG SSJ > SSG, SSB (RoF) >> SSJ (RoF/post-SSG) > base Goku (RoF/post-BoG)/SSG (BoG).

The movie is irrelevant. We are talking about Super.

And even if it were true that post-SSG Base Goku in BoG is weaker than SSG, it's made crystal clear that's not the case in RoF, with statements from Beerus and Whis supporting Goku's growth since BoG.

What statements from Beerus and Whis? You mean the ones that say that they got stronger? Obviously they got stronger training with Whis. (Especially Vegeta, who in the 6 months with Whis duplicated Goku's ritual boost) but it doesn't suggest that his BASE got stronger than his SSJ was. Obviously if they were to fight Beerus, they would go SSJ and fight him.


Ovrhide"]
if we go with what was explicitly shown in the anime. right at the moment he lost ssg, he kept its power in his ssj form. so by the end of the Bog arc, his base form is 50x weaker than his SSG form was at the time.

That is correct. Or at least, his Base is a little bit stronger than 50x weaker than his SSG was at the time, because he did get stronger when he was SSJ. So his Base would be something like 30-45x weaker than BoG SSG, depending on how much stronger he got as a SSJ.

By the time he was fighting Freeza, it was state that he was stronger than ever before in just base. so he improved over 50x while training with whis, which right now, we know its a rate that we have seen in later arcs.

Nope. That statement about being stronger than ever is a mistranslation, the official translations say nothing of the sort. Unfortunately, during RoF, we didn't have a simulcast yet, so a lot of shitty fan translations were floating around because we didn't have official translations.

AwkguyDB"]
Finally the icing on the cake is Vegeta directly said that even if he harnessed the power of SSJG he'd be second fiddle still to Goku Implying that Goku didn't just make the power his own but perfected it and surpassed it . He evolved through his battle with Beerus.[/quote]

Ummmm....No? Vegeta said that because Goku, even with SSG, was the 2nd strongest. He wasn't arbitrarily declaring himself to be weaker than Goku if he achieved SSG. That would be dubious and out of character. SSG was the power that allowed Goku to be 2nd strongest to Beerus,(he didn't know about Whis yet), Vegeta was just saying he wasn't interested in a power that would only make him 2nd strongest, because he wants to be the strongest. This is playing into the reason why he declined doing the SSG ritual.

 

[PFM18]

Frankly, it's pretty obvious that BoG does not establish Base>SSG going forward, I think this interpretation boils down to a bias toward inflating the character's power. Hence why, apparently according to this wiki Piccolo is ******* universal. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

[ChocomilkAlex]

Personally, I think it boils down to shitty writing. Goku having to push himself in Super Saiyan in order to keep up with Caulifla and Kale is stupid and it really makes no sense as to how so many characters are just stronger than BoG God Goku.

 

[PFM18]

Personally, I think it boils down to shitty writing. Goku having to push himself in Super Saiyan in order to keep up with Caulifla and Kale is stupid and it really makes no sense as to how so many characters are just stronger than BoG God Goku.

Escalation is a thing. Characters need to have stronger enemies for things to remain interesting. And there is nothing preventing Caulifla/Kale etc from being that strong.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Frankly, it's pretty obvious that BoG does not establish Base>SSG going forward, I think this interpretation boils down to a bias toward inflating the character's power. Hence why, apparently according to this wiki Piccolo is ******* universal. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

So I'm gonna go ahead and say this again,

but 40x less than a 3-A rating that includes a second spacetime (Otherworld) is still a 3-A rating.

Piccolo would still be 3-A even if this goes through. Mystic Gohan would still be 3-A.

In fact, it would only further support that scaling chain, considering that Piccolo was comparable to a weakened Frost, who competed comparably to SSJ Goku; and simply because of the vast scale of the 3-A tier and its scaling chain in DBS, it's mathematically impossible for Piccolo not to be a degree of 3-A in his showing against Frost alone.

 

[PFM18]

Frankly, it's pretty obvious that BoG does not establish Base>SSG going forward, I think this interpretation boils down to a bias toward inflating the character's power. Hence why, apparently according to this wiki Piccolo is ******* universal. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

So I'm gonna go ahead and say this again,
but 40x less than a 3-A rating that includes a second spacetime (Otherworld) is still a 3-A rating.

Piccolo would still be 3-A even if this goes through. Mystic Gohan would still be 3-A.

In fact, it would only further support that scaling chain, considering that Piccolo was comparable to a weakened Frost, who competed comparably to SSJ Goku; and simply because of the vast scale of the 3-A tier and its scaling chain in DBS, it's mathematically impossible for Piccolo not to be a degree of 3-A in his showing against Frost alone.

I mean I'm not super well-versed in all of this astronomy stuff that is being used, but Goku's Base was weaker than BoG SSG, and Piccolo is weaker than that. If BoG SSG is WAYYY above universal level, then I guess it would make sense for Goku's Base to continue to be on that "universal level" even if he is 40-50x weaker.(as he should be.)


With regards to the astronomy stuff and "how many celestial bodies can this character destroy?" I'm not really interested in being much more than a spectator. I find it cool to hear about all this crazy stuff about how fast/strong, they are, instead of just a comparison of how characters are compared to other characters within their universe.


But I love Dragon Ball, and logically, the premise that Base Goku(post-ritual)>BoG SSG held onto a premise that Goku's SSG was absorbed SPECIFICALLY into his Base form, which is false,(the dialogue occurred while he was SSJ and didn't lose any power from SSG), and the premise that there was a statement in RoF that Goku's ki was at it's highest ever, which was just a mistranslation.

No, Frost did not "compete comparably" to SSJ Goku, he was completely dominated. He was powerless against SSJ Goku, he did all of absolutely nothing. And he was beaten to the point that he could barely even stand at one point. He would be severely injured/weakened from when he was fresh and fought Goku. And Goku, following the tournament, asked Piccolo if he wanted to train with him, and Piccolo said that he simply wouldn't be able to keep up in training, and Goku agreed. By this point it was established during Whis's training that they only train in their Base forms at this point. So if Piccolo could not keep up, that means his power is not even close to Goku's Base, which make sense, because Goku's Base is obscenely powerful by this point. Piccolo still recognized that he was STILL weaker than Frost, and Goku told him he had no chance, and the Makankosoppo was his only chance of winning due to losing in power. To summarize:

SSJ Goku>>>Frost>Base Goku>>>Frost(weakened)>>>Piccolo

And if this wasn't enough, Piccolo loses to the power that he refers to, to Gohan as "the power you had against Buu" which may even suggest that he is even weaker than Buu arc Ultimate Gohan, who's a complete joke at this point in the story.

Didn't Beerus flat out say that Goku made SSG'S power his own and internalized it, AKA his base form should have it permanently now? That's pretty blatant of a statement tbh. There is zero reason why his SS form should be the thing to internalize it since the whole point of the training bits in RoF was to show Goku and Vegeta learning how to truly use that internalized power. SSB is the direct result of using that internal power in conjunction with SS.

Why would that translate to his BASE FORM, having it permanently then? Beerus says that he "made the power his own", following Goku and Beerus agreeing that he "didn't get any weaker" from his SSG form, now in his SSJ form. This dialogue establishes, that his SSJ=SSG from moments prior. Therefore, this means that his Base form was SSG/50, ya know because math. Then Goku's power grew during the fight and his SSJ surpassed SSG, but nothing with regards to the "absorbing" and "making his power his own" is ever mentioned again, so there is no reaosn to believe that he absorbed it such that his Base form had become as storng as SSG was.
RoF was about teaching each of them to use GOD Ki, it was unrelated to what happened in BoG. Otherwise Vegeta would be unable to harness this, given that he did not "make the SSG power his own." Goku simlpy got a power-up, and Vegeta matched it by getting there 6 months early, and then they both learned to use God Ki together. SSB is a manifestation of combining God Ki and SSJ.

 

[Xantospoc]

In aepisode 42, Base Goku spars with Beerus (disguised as Monaka) and actually manages to make him have fun and get excited (Something he did not succeed in battle of God saga) to the point Whis had to step in.

So yes, he did surpass SSG in base

 

[AKM sama]

"Yes, he got stronger throughout the rest of the fight, but this instance could not be more clearly a result of rage induced by Beerus's comment."

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but again, you seem to be under the false impression that just because Beerus said a line and Goku screamed, he was automatically raging out. Go back and watch the whole fight, Beerus said the same thing, the exact same thing multiple times throughout the fight and never once did Goku rage out about that. If he had to rage out, he would have been much more affected by that statement the first time itself, not the last time when he had already heard that statement multiple times.

In fact there was one time when Goku in SSG himself admitted that he was at his limits and Beerus was clearly a lot stronger. Would the guy who is ready to admit his own limits at a given point, would go leaps and bounds to rage out when teased about the same thing later?

And for the last time, being serious and screaming doesn't make it a rage boost. Heck right before that scene when Goku pushed Beerus to the stratosphere he gave an angry looking serious expression to Beerus and screamed. In a shounen show that involves angry looking men screaming all the time, every moment is a rage scene by that logic?

Wow this is clearly a rage scene because Beerus was teasing Goku about the same thing and Goku gave an angry expression and was screaming his lungs out, right? And the teasing and screaming continued till this scene.

OMG look at that torture by King Piccolo who was the reason Goku's best friends died which is much more important that "his limits", and look how angry Goku is. And he is screaming too. Clearly a rage boost, right?

Hmmm clearly the death of his friends made him more angry than a statement about "his limits", just look at that expression. And that scream OMG. Clearly just a rage boost.

Again look Goku is clearly angry with Freeza for multiple reasons all of which are more important than "his limits", and he is screaming again. Look at that rage boost.

Oh and remember the first round with Tao Pai Pai and Tambourine, Goku was angry on both occasions because of deaths of his friends, clearly more important reasons than "his limits". Did he win? Did he get a rage boost?

But for a second, let's assume if we were to go by the headcanon of "rage boost", it wouldn't change the ratings as 50x weaker Goku would still be universe level given that ssj Goku was massively above baseline universe level.

"That in and of itself, does not resemble in any way, the power boosts he got in the rest of the fight, nor does it resemble any generic Saiyan related gains like the rest of the fight."

The first time Goku transformed into SSG, he was a lot weaker than when the SSG faded away. So much so that Beerus came to seriously enjoy the fight and they made an energy construct (1st SoD) together that could destroy the whole universe which Beerus nullified. That is a massive boost. And moments later Goku was stronger than both their energies combined together from the previous exchange (stronger than 1st SoD) on his own, so much so that even Beerus found it hard to nullify Goku's energy. And just moments later, Goku came back with more power that Beerus gave up on Nullifying Goku's energy altogether. So don't talk about massive boosts. The fight was following the same precedent from the start.

"Nope. That statement about being stronger than ever is a mistranslation, the official translations say nothing of the sort."

Both translations convey the same message. While one outright states it as a fact, the other one states that the same characters who were able to follow Goku vs Beerus, weren't able to follow Goku vs Freeza. Same meaning.

 

[PFM18]

Go back and watch the whole fight, Beerus said the same thing, the exact same thing multiple times throughout the fight and never once did Goku rage out about that.
Then it should be easy to post the episode number and a time stamp of when this occurred.

In fact there was one time when Goku in SSG himself admitted that he was at his limits and Beerus was clearly a lot stronger. Would the guy who is ready to admit his own limits at a given point, would go leaps and bounds to rage out when teased about the same thing later?
That's a dub clip, and is therefore invalid. Funimation can do what they want. Even if he did, that's completely and totally different. It is perfectly reasonable for somebody to say "I'm stupid", and then get angry if somebody else calls them stupid. The same concept exists here, assuming that the line actually existed in the original version.


And for the last time, being serious and screaming doesn't make it a rage boost. Heck right before that scene when Goku pushed Beerus to the stratosphere he gave an angry looking serious expression to Beerus and screamed. In a shounen show that involves angry looking men screaming all the time, every moment is a rage scene by that logic?

Wow this is clearly a rage scene because Beerus was teasing Goku about the same thing and Goku gave an angry expression and was screaming his lungs out, right? And the teasing and screaming continued till this scene.

OMG look at that torture by King Piccolo who was the reason Goku's best friends died which is much more important that "his limits", and look how angry Goku is. And he is screaming too. Clearly a rage boost, right?

Hmmm clearly the death of his friends made him more angry than a statement about "his limits", just look at that expression. And that scream OMG. Clearly just a rage boost.

Again look Goku is clearly angry with Freeza for multiple reasons all of which are more important than "his limits", and he is screaming again. Look at that rage boost.

I mean this is just a blatant strawman. I never suggested or implied that any time that somebody screams that they received a rage boost. I even explicitly defined what a rage boost should be described as:

A boost in power that comes in direct response to something that is said or done, that makes the character angry. Now, to make this more specific and more falsifiable, lets forma an addeundum to the definition, to define more clearly how exactly we know it to be a boost in power related to a rage boost; the boost in power to such an extent that he is able to do something that he was not able to do prior to becoming angry. For example:

Vegeta was unable to do any damage to Beerus, becomes angry and then is able to hurt a suppressed Beerus and perform better than anybody else to that point. (angry that Beerus had slapped his wife)

Goku is unable to break free from Black's blade, gets angry, and breaks free, knocking away both iterations of Zamasu. (angry that Black murdered his wife and child.)

Gohan is unable to break out of Raditz's ship, gets angry, breaks out of the ship and headbutts Raditz, damaging him. (angry that Raditz was beating the shit out of his dad)

SSJ Goku is unable to do anything to the SoD, Base Goku gets angry and punches the SoD, destroying it. (angry that Beerus had "decided" his limits.)

These are all boosts in power that very clearly coincide with becoming angry, boosts in power that explicitly show their power to be able to accomplish something that their previous limitations was not capable. None of your counter examples fit the aforementioned defintion. (Of course they are examples that are countering a strawman.) There is no real distinction to be made between these scenes. They are clearly framed exactly the same way in the story. You have thus far failed to make any substantive distinction between them, and apparently resorting to just strawmanning me.

Oh and remember the first round with Tao Pai Pai and Tambourine, Goku was angry on both occasions because of deaths of his friends, clearly more important reasons than "his limits". Did he win? Did he get a rage boost?
There's no evidence there was a rage boost in the encounter, and the arbitrarily quantified "importance" of the reason is completely and totally irrelevant. The reason that they received a rage boost is not relevant to whether or not they actually received a rage boost. "He's not enraged because it isn't that important!" is not an argument. If you think the reason for the rage boost is dumb then take that up with the writers, not with me.

But for a second, let's assume if we were to go by the headcanon of "rage boost", it wouldn't change the ratings as 50x weaker Goku would still be universe level given that ssj Goku was massively above baseline universe level.
Like I said, I'm very new to all of this stuff with astronomy and cosmic bodies, but I would imagine that in cases where characters are "on Base Goku's level", if Base Goku's level drops 50x, then characters that are "close to Base Goku" may not necessarily be universal level. But I don't know, I have no idea how this "attack potency" stuff works I just like Dragon Ball.

The first time Goku transformed into SSG, he was a lot weaker than when the SSG faded away. So much so that Beerus came to seriously enjoy the fight and they made an energy construct (1st SoD) together that could destroy the whole universe which Beerus nullified. That is a massive boost. And moments later Goku was stronger than both their energies combined together from the previous exchange (stronger than 1st SoD) on his own, so much so that even Beerus found it hard to nullify Goku's energy. And just moments later, Goku came back with more power that Beerus gave up on Nullifying Goku's energy altogether. So don't talk about massive boosts. The fight was following the same precedent from the start.
There is absolutely no reason to suggest that what you describe comes anywhere even remotely close to the boost of well over 50x at the end of BoG. This franchise treats relatively small boosts, like 9-33%, as gigantic increases in power that can completely change the tide of battle. In all of the times we had explicit numbers describing the character's power, a 1.5x difference was treated essentially as insurmountable and enough to one shot your opponent. There is no reason to believe that what happened there comes anywhere close to 50+ times considering fairly small differences in power are treated as being very impactful.

Both translations convey the same message. While one outright states it as a fact, the other one states that the same characters who were able to follow Goku vs Beerus, weren't able to follow Goku vs Freeza. Same meaning.
Nope. The scene in question, when correctly translated is just Krillin talking about how scared he was at the time. The scene you are referring to is a different piece of dialogue entirely. And I have already thoroughly debunked this idea that "I can't see them!" being different is not a legitimate argument.

@AKM sama

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

...I'm going to be honest, you haven't debunked anything, at this point you're just stubbornly refusing to listen to sound logic in favor of supporting your "Goku was raging out for literally no good reason" headcanon. It's out of character for someone like Goku to pointlessly rage out just because someone like Beerus was taunting him about his limits. You can name literally any other point in the series where the villain has said something absolutely ******* HORRIBLE and Goku didn't even rage out.


But he's going to throw a tantrum and act like ******* Vegeta out of nowhere just because a purple space cat thinks he's at his limit? Bullshit. The one legitimate moment of rage might be the "I WILL NOT LET YOU DESTROY MY WORLD!!" line. That's it. It is hilariously out of character for Goku to flip out over some banal teasing.

 

[Naeblis495]

It is pretty clear that goku absorbed most of SSJG into his base form .

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Why is this such a big deal lmao.

 

[PFM18]

...I'm going to be honest, you haven't debunked anything, at this point you're just stubbornly refusing to listen to sound logic in favor of supporting your "Goku was raging out for literally no good reason" headcanon.

Not really. People have completely failed to make any substantive distinction between this scene and all previous rage boosts. I showed you in detail how the framing and context of the scenes are literally identical. Funny how saying that somebody was enraged when they screamed "SHUT UP! SHUT UP!" and then immediately turned the tables on their opponent, is considered "complete head canon" but arbitrarily claiming that he had "absorbed SSG into his Base" after that scene, despite absolutely no implication whatsoever, is considered legitimate. Like, it is obvious which premise is more well supported.

It's out of character for someone like Goku to pointlessly rage out just because someone like Beerus was taunting him about his limits. You can name literally any other point in the series where the villain has said something absolutely ******* HORRIBLE and Goku didn't even rage out.
Whether or not it "would" be out of character for him to do it is completely and totally irrelevant. That belongs in a discussion about the writing quality, not power scaling. The scene shows him getting angry, getting a rage boost, and then literally explaining to Beerus why he was so angry.


But he's going to throw a tantrum and act like ******* Vegeta out of nowhere just because a purple space cat thinks he's at his limit? Bullshit. The one legitimate moment of rage might be the "I WILL NOT LET YOU DESTROY MY WORLD!!" line. That's it. It is hilariously out of character for Goku to flip out over some banal teasing.
Yeah that line is movie-only. Apparently you are having a lot of trouble distinguishing between them.

It is pretty clear that goku absorbed most of SSJG into his base form .

Based on what?

 

[AKM sama]

"That's a dub clip, and is therefore invalid."

Then you can check episode 12 right towards the end. Goku admits his own limits and tells Beerus that he won't be able to beat him.

"It is perfectly reasonable for somebody to say "I'm stupid", and then get angry if somebody else calls them stupid."

Except that Beerus never said something like "this is your limit". What he did was ask a genuine question "Are you really not at your limit yet?" because Goku was struggling. There wasn't even a hint of any kind of mocking or teasing in his tone while he said it.

Which brings me to my argument that you conveniently skipped. I linked scenes where Beerus mocked/teased Goku about him being at his limits.

• In the beginning of the same episode when Beerus was choking Goku's throat, Beerus teased Goku that since God power entered his body, this shouldn't be his limits, and that comment was delivered in a mocking tone, unlike the one with the SoD. And Goku mirrored the same reaction of getting angry, screaming and powering up, but it wasn't a rage boost.

• Again, moments after that Beerus declared himself the winner in a mocking tone and Goku screamed "NOT YET" and proceeded to do the same thing. It wasn't a rage boost either.

• Again moments later, when Goku said that he would have liked to win the fight but Beerus declared himself the winner and delivered the final blow, Goku thought about how Beerus would destroy the Earth and he screamed "NOT DONE YET". He came back with even greater power and it wasn't a rage boost either.

Finally when Beerus genuinely asked Goku about his limits out of concern, Goku screamed the same thing and it wasn't a rage boost at all. In all the cases Goku had "a boost in power that came in direct response to something that is said or done", but it didn't make him angry and they weren't rage boosts.

All these instances are from the same episode, have the same context and they match with the instance in question almost one-to-one, unlike the examples you pointed out about rage boosts. That's false analogy. You've failed to provide a single bit of evidence as to why it would be a rage boost other than listing other instances of rage boosts that don't match this instance at all.

And that line Goku said in the end wasn't delivered by an angered person who was raging out. It was delivered by a person who was smiling. Because Goku had proven Beerus wrong throughout the entire course of the episode, or even the whole fight, by breaking his limits time and again whenever Beerus knocked him out, teased him about being a mere saiyan, teased him about God power entering his body and his limits, teased him that he was going easy, mocked him that he was never a match for him.

""He's not enraged because it isn't that important!" is not an argument."

It is when you claim that a scene that has nonexistent evidence of being a rage boost, is actually a rage boost. I brought it up only because you brought up multiple other disconnected examples that have no relation to the current scene due to them having different contexts.

Just because you think Goku should be angry and rage boosted in a single scene when he wasn't even angry at anything during the entire fight even after listening to the same dialogue multiple times, when the whole fight was happening in friendly spirits right till the end, isn't PROOF of anything.

 

[ByAsura]

Then it should be easy to post the episode number and a time stamp of when this occurred.

If it's so easy, then can you post the actual translation that implies Goku doesn't have the highest Ki Gohan and Krillin have ever seen?

I can't find anything of the sort.

 

[PFM18]

"That's a dub clip, and is therefore invalid."
Then you can check episode 12 right towards the end. Goku admits his own limits and tells Beerus that he won't be able to beat him.

Okay, so here's the dialogue:
Goku: Is this a Super Saiyan God's limit?

So, I mean, Goku is frustrated that SSG is not stronger obviously. So I guess what you said is true, doesn't change anything though.

Except that Beerus never said something like "this is your limit". What he did was ask a genuine question "Are you really not at your limit yet?" because Goku was struggling. There wasn't even a hint of any kind of mocking or teasing in his tone while he said it.
Except that is apparently not a distinction that actually mattered to Goku, nor should it. Whether he says it in a mocking tone makes absolutely no difference, given that he goes on to explain to Beerus exactly why it made him angry, before screaming "shut up" twice. And the paralell you tried to draw where Goku continuously said "Not yet" before powering up, doesn't even work upon further inspection, because Goku said "Not yet!" mirroring previous scenes, then absolutely nothing changed, whatever he had been doing previously had apparently not worked. The "Not yet" followed by Saiyan hax boosts were apparently insufficient, because that sequence was repeated with no results. THEN, Beerus made the comment about Goku's limits, and THEN Goku told Beerus to shut up twice, before lecturing Beerus about how that pissed him off. They even have a scene where they emphasize his anger after the fact by zooming in on his eye as he crinkles his eyebrow and stammers as he says it. That literally could not be more clear. To be clear, I did not ever claim that just because Goku screamed that means he was angry, he was angry because the entire scene is framed clearly as an angry scene. Until I rewatched it, the choreography following the SoD punch makes an effort to emphasize this anger.

Now, before I go in further discussing the dialogue, let's frame in the conversation. I have transcribed the dialogue between Goku and Beerus during all of the scenes in question:

Beerus: Doesn't the power of a god lie within you? Shouldn't you have more to offer than this?

Goku: You little....

Beerus: That's it. But that won't be able to reach me. Have you forgotten? I can nullify all energy.

Goku: Damn it!

Beerus: I won!

Goku: Not yet!

Beerus: Disappear! What? So this is the power of the Super Saiyan God!

Beerus: You scrape together the power of five Saiyans and get a patchwerk like Super Saiyan God. You made it your own and perfected it forcing me to use this much of my power. Between you and me...for a moment, I regretted being so obsessed with that prophetic dream.

Goku: You tellin' me that doesn't make me happy at all. Damn it. I really wanted to win. I'm guessin' you ain't up for a rematch later. You're gonna destroy the Earth right?

Beerus: Do you remember? Our battle began with this move. That's why now, I shall give you this blow filled with a thousand emotions. Yes indeed....I have won.

Goku: I ain't.....done yet.

Beerus: I just ended this in a super cool way! Be good and fall!

Goku: I... still... haven't used every ounce of my power..to bring you down Beerus-sama. There's no way I am just gonna fall.

Beerus: "Every ounce of your power" huh? I see. Well then, try and hit me. We will really end it with this.

Goku: Yeah.

Beerus:This guy....I might not be able to extinguish him so easily.

Goku: What's this? What? Damn it!

Goku: No, Not yet!

Beerus: Hey, you really sure you're not at your limit?

Goku: Shut up! Shut up!

Goku: Hey, Beerus sama

Beerus: What?

Goku: Just cuz you're a god.......You can't just go decidin' a person's limits!

AS IT DOES A CLOSE UP ON HIS EYES AND HE STAMMERS BEFORE FALLING ASLEEP!!

In the beginning of the same episode when Beerus was choking Goku's throat, Beerus teased Goku that since God power entered his body, this shouldn't be his limits, and that comment was delivered in a mocking tone, unlike the one with the SoD. And Goku mirrored the same reaction of getting angry, screaming and powering up, but it wasn't a rage boost.
False. The word "limit" is not even mentioned, which is apparently the verbatim that Goku takes issue with beerus using. And the tone taken is no different from the final scene. There is no such mirroring, given he never yelled at Beerus to shut up nor did he lecture Beerus about not saying something that angered him.

Again, moments after that Beerus declared himself the winner in a mocking tone and Goku screamed "NOT YET" and proceeded to do the same thing. It wasn't a rage boost either.


Okay? I mean I never claimed that just because he yelled that it must have been a rage boost. This doesn't actually mirror the final scene at all, namely that it clearly is not framed as a result of rage. Beerus says that he won, and then it screams immediately to Goku emerging from the explosion, undamaged. Goku's "boost" did not coincide strictly from Beerus's comment, and it wouldn't even make sense given that Beerus later shows he seemingly takes no issue with Beerus claiming victory itself. Beerus says that he won, and then we just see Goku emerging from the explosion, he didn't somehow get a power boost from the "rage" induced by Beerus's comment, tank the hit, and then emerge instantly. The power boost was completely irrespective of Beerus's comment, unlike the final scene. You are trying to draw a paralell, but there simply wasn't one aside from Goku saying "Not yet" vaguely at some point in the scene.
Again moments later, when Goku said that he would have liked to win the fight but Beerus declared himself the winner and delivered the final blow, Goku thought about how Beerus would destroy the Earth and he screamed "NOT DONE YET". He came back with even greater power and it wasn't a rage boost either.


He also didn't necessarily even receive a boost at all, he says that he hasn't used every ounce of his power yet. Essentially just meaning that he had some energy left and was still able to fight, basically meaning he had willed himself to continue fighting. That could be what it is, rather than a literal power boost, though it could go either way, not that it is especially important. Whether he actually received a power boost would only be relevant if the framing of that scene was the same as the final scene.
And there was no distinct dichotomy in Goku's performance strictly coinciding with something Beerus said that Beerus pissed him off. You may have an argument if Beerus's comment about winning had pissed Goku off inciting him, instead he is falling to the earth and thinks about saving everyone and that inspires him to continue going. Had the Beerus comment pissed him off, there actually would be a paralell to be drawn where Goku had responded as a result to something Beerus said. But that simply did not happen, so you don't have an argument here.

Finally when Beerus genuinely asked Goku about his limits out of concern, Goku screamed the same thing and it wasn't a rage boost at all. In all the cases Goku had "a boost in power that came in direct response to something that is said or done", but it didn't make him angry and they weren't rage boosts.


Out of concern? Are you serious? You think he is worried about Goku's well being?
I mean this is just factually incorrect. That's simply not what happened. Goku screaming "the same thing" aka "Not yet" occurred, absolutely nothing happened as a result, AND THEN Beerus made the comment. This sequence where Goku screams "Not yet!" and then shows an increase, does not occur, the paralell you are trying to make does not exist. He says that, nothing happens, Beerus makes the comment, THEN Goku starts screaming for Beerus to shut up, punches the SoD then goes on explicitly explaining why he was so angry. the order you described is false. Again, the narration making his anger clear by literally doing a close-up of his eye as he crinkles his eyebrows, showing anger, and stammering as he tries to get the last words out. There is absolutely no paralell to be drawn.

The previous scenes, Goku's growth does not directly coincide with something Beerus says that is explicitly something Goku takes issue with, Beerus does not use the same verbatim, as the final scene is the only time that Beerus explicitly questions Goku's limits, Goku does not yell "Shut up!" at any other time in the fight, Goku does not lecture Beerus about what not to do either, nor is there a literal close-up for the obvious intention of emphasizing Goku's anger. There is simply not any such paralell.


You've failed to provide a single bit of evidence as to why it would be a rage boost other than listing other instances of rage boosts that don't match this instance at all.


You've failed to make any meaningful distinction between this scene and previous rage boosts or following rage boosts. The framing is literally identical, if anything this one is more egregious because there is a scene where Goku explains why he is angry to make it as obvious as possible.
And that line Goku said in the end wasn't delivered by an angered person who was raging out. It was delivered by a person who was smiling. Because Goku had proven Beerus wrong throughout the entire course of the episode, or even the whole fight, by breaking his limits time and again whenever Beerus knocked him out, teased him about being a mere saiyan, teased him about God power entering his body and his limits, teased him that he was going easy, mocked him that he was never a match for him.


...are you serious? Your "evidence" is the tone that he delivered the line in? You realize that he literally fell asleep immediately following the line right? He had no energy left, he delivered the line with as much emotion that he possibly could with what he had left. That's why such an emphasis is placed on Goku trying to even so much as lean forward and say it while crinkling his eyes. This portrayal is abundantly clear. Yes, he does smile, but you're lumping the scene together. He smiles, because he had proven Beerus wrong, then he struggles to "sit up" before angrily delivering the final line, but struggled intensely to do so. And his "happy" demeanor changes as he does the "sit up" motion. He wasn't smiling the entire time so that is a non-argument too. The idea that he was not angry simply because the tone in this context is absolutely ridiculous and frankly shows how weak your argument is.It completely ignores the context that he literally fell asleep following the line, and had absolutely no energy left. And again, the idea that Beerus had explicitly made a comment about his limits prior to that is false.
I mean, this is the image of him delivering the line, certainly does not seem like they are portraying a happy, smiling guy:

The series makes it very clear, that there is a distinction between the way that the eyes/eyebrows are drawn when a character is relaxed vs not. Goku's eyes are both slits, and not ovals, and his eyebrows are tensed, making it rather obvious that this is not a relaxed person that is "politely" telling Beerus something. It's ridiculous to say that he is anything other than pissed during this sequence, he's clearly explaining WHY he was so enraged in the previous scene, and there is some animosity that was "left over" after the SoD punch scene.
It is when you claim that a scene that has nonexistent evidence of being a rage boost, is actually a rage boost. I brought it up only because you brought up multiple other disconnected examples that have no relation to the current scene due to them having different contexts.

Nope, it's still not relevant and is a non-argument. The perceived "importance" of the reason is totally irrelevant, what's relevant is whether he is actually enraged, which he clearly is. You have since failed to make any meaningful distinction between the portrayal of this scene and other rage boosts in the series. Apparently, the best you can do is claim that it is "not important!" because there is no such difference in this scene that actually matters. There's absolutely nothing different about the narrative portrayal/contextual clues about this scene. If anything, this scene is MORE obviously a rage boost because there is a literal sequence in which Goku explains WHY he is so angry in the scene.
Just because you think Goku should be angry and rage boosted in a single scene when he wasn't even angry at anything during the entire fight even after listening to the same dialogue multiple times, when the whole fight was happening in friendly spirits right till the end, isn't PROOF of anything.

Of course I dont' have proof. But neither do you. This is not mathematical indcution or something, there is no such thing as proof in this context, the best you can do is form the strongest possible argument for your position, you cannot prove it. And apparently your argument includes:
"He was in friendly spirits!"
False. I posted the screenshot of him delivering the line where it could not be more obvious he was not relaxed/in good spirits, and he had literally screamed at Beerus to shut up twice, of which he never said at any point in the rest of the fight.
"Even after listening to the same dialogue!"
False. Beerus never explicitly questions Goku's limits at any other point in the fight. And Goku explained that was what he took issue with.
"The context of the scene mirros previous ones, because he says "Not yet!"
He says "Not yet" like in previous scenes, and nothing happens, and THEN Beerus drops the line that pisses Goku off, which is unique to that scene, and Goku screamed for him to shut up twice which is also unique to that scene. AND, there is the explanation sequence which is also unique to that scene. It does not actually mirror any previous scene, if anything, it deliberately contrasts previous scenes because him yelling "Not yet!" followed by a Saiyan hax boost, is clearly insufficient and results in nothing., something doesn't happen until Beerus says the line that pisses him off.
"The reason isn't that important!"
Totally irrelevant. The "importance" of the reason plays no role, not to mention the notion is completely arbitrary.
and....you have no argument left.

 

[PFM18]

Then it should be easy to post the episode number and a time stamp of when this occurred.

If it's so easy, then can you post the actual translation that implies Goku doesn't have the highest Ki Gohan and Krillin have ever seen?
I can't find anything of the sort.

This is the correct line, where it was said it was the highest ki they had ever felt:

https://imgur.com/5f5jzRM

The official translation, aka non-trash fan subs, more or less amounts to "Oh shit! I am scared!"

this argument for Base Goku RoF>>>>BoG SSJ Goku(post-ritual) is paper weak.

 

[Akreious]

Then it should be easy to post the episode number and a time stamp of when this occurred.

If it's so easy, then can you post the actual translation that implies Goku doesn't have the highest Ki Gohan and Krillin have ever seen?
I can't find anything of the sort.

This is the correct line, where it was said it was the highest ki they had ever felt:
https://imgur.com/5f5jzRM

The official translation, aka non-trash fan subs, more or less amounts to "Oh shit! I am scared!"

this argument for Base Goku RoF>>>>BoG SSJ Goku(post-ritual) is paper weak.

You don't "sense" fear as Krillin says in your image. Your interpretation relies upon Krillin himself just saying "Oh I feel scared" when he clearly makes the distinction that he senses it, meaning the "paper weak argument" has more basis than what you're trying to pass off.

 

[PFM18]

If it's so easy, then can you post the actual translation that implies Goku doesn't have the highest Ki Gohan and Krillin have ever seen?
I can't find anything of the sort.

This is the correct line, where it was said it was the highest ki they had ever felt:
https://imgur.com/5f5jzRM

The official translation, aka non-trash fan subs, more or less amounts to "Oh shit! I am scared!"

this argument for Base Goku RoF>>>>BoG SSJ Goku(post-ritual) is paper weak.

You don't "sense" fear as Krillin says in your image. Your interpretation relies upon Krillin himself just saying "Oh I feel scared" when he clearly makes the distinction that he senses it, meaning the "paper weak argument" has more basis than what you're trying to pass off.

Ah yes, because the word "sense" was used, the line about him being in fear somehow does not mean that he is in fear. If this is the best the opposition has to offer it is definitely a paper weak argument.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

...Still kind of a huge waste of time over what's essentially semantics. Even if this is accepted, it won't change our ratings, just an edit to the actual content of Goku's page.

 

[PFM18]

...Still kind of a huge waste of time over what's essentially semantics. Even if this is accepted, it won't change our ratings, just an edit to the actual content of Goku's page.

I mean it is more than a 50x difference, that should be significant. Being Base>>SSJ vs not is a fairly large difference. That is not semantics given SSJ is a 50x multiplier.

I mean, isn't the rationalization for Piccolo being universal that he is close to Base Goku who is stronger than BoG SSG who is universal? If he is no longer stronger than BoG SSG, that makes Piccolo being universal called into question right?

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

It isn't more than a 50x difference? I don't think we even treat it as more than 40x. Even so, a 50x difference considering the size of the DB universe and the Universe-level tier in general, is still 3-A in base, because we treat baseline 3-A as the scope of the observable universe IRL, IIRC. So Piccolo would still be 3-A in his Super keys, given his showing against Frost, who did legitimately compete (as in, traded/blocked/dodged blows) with base and Ss1 Goku before he resorted to his needle.

 

[HrishikeshM]

This is the correct line, where it was said it was the highest ki they had ever felt:

https://imgur.com/5f5jzRM

The official translation, aka non-trash fan subs, more or less amounts to "Oh shit! I am scared!"

this argument for Base Goku RoF>>>>BoG SSJ Goku(post-ritual) is paper weak.

there is one more dialogue that was said before that line.....one was said by gohan and the other was said by krillin

they were scared because their ki was so high

goten and trunks also sensed goku back in bog and they were also surprised when they sensed goku and frieza

trunks: did you feel that goten?

goten: yes what an enormous ki!

 

[My_area]

When I will be free I will get into why this is wrong

Even if we ignore and lowball that Goku got rage boost then base still becomes universal in u6vsu7 arc due to multiple consistent scene so he is still universal in base

Just going to say this,going to come back later on this

 

[My_area]

Before I start after a week tell me you dont believe Base Goku in BOG being universal or Base Goku being universal in entire DBS? I will write a response depending on your answer

 

[PFM18]

It isn't more than a 50x difference? I don't think we even treat it as more than 40x. Even so, a 50x difference considering the size of the DB universe and the Universe-level tier in general, is still 3-A in base, because we treat baseline 3-A as the scope of the observable universe IRL, IIRC.

For your Base form to surpass your SSJ form it must be a boost of over 50x. I don't see how this could be viewed any other way, given that SSJ is a 50x multiplier and his Base had surpassed it. Therefore, Goku according to whatever calculations, should be at least 50x weaker than it is right now. But like I said, I'm not at all familiar with all of these astronomy calculations and stuff like that, I just like Dragon Ball and realized that the article about it was wrong. But here's my interpretation of the "Attack Potency" based on my limited knowledge of how that works:

"Universal level": 1

initial BoG SSG Goku: 3

final BoG SSG Goku: 5

SSJ Goku(post-ritual): 7

Base Goku(post-ritual): .14

As in, since the living world is 1/3 of the "universe" given that there is an "Other world" and what not that are the same size that makes up the other 2/3. But since SSJ Goku(post-ritual) isn't above 50x universal level, Goku's Base form should be placed below universal. Not that I care that much or know too much about how that works, I am just making this thread to dispute that Base Goku after BoG>BoG SSG.

there is one more dialogue that was said before that line.....one was said by gohan and the other was said by krillin

they were scared because their ki was so high

goten and trunks also sensed goku back in bog and they were also surprised when they sensed goku and frieza

trunks: did you feel that goten?

goten: yes what an enormous ki!

Yes, Gohan says: What a tremendous ki!

Which proves nothing. Just because they say it is a large ki doesn't mean it is the largest they have ever sensed. By your logic, Base Future Trunks(vs Cyber Freeza)>>Namek Full-Power Freeza and Imperfect Cell(pre-absorptions)>Kamicollo. Both of which are obviously untrue.

Before I start after a week tell me you dont believe Base Goku in BOG being universal or Base Goku being universal in entire DBS? I will write a response depending on your answer

The purpose of this thread is to dispute the consensus on this site that:

End of BoG Base Goku>>BoG SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>BoG SSG Goku

Instead, it should be:

SSJ Gok(post-ritual)>BoG SSG Goku>>Base Goku(post-ritual) because the SoD punch was a rage boost and not some convoluted crap that increased his power more than 50x.

I don't really know, or care, how much this translates to whether or not Base Goku is actually universal because of it.

 

[Vietthai96]

But hey i sometime think that if Base Goku post BoG is universal that mean everyone who fight him after that must be universal atleast, hell even Krillin should be universal because he push Goku to SSJ in ToP Arc who way stronger than himself in BoG Arc

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

But hey i sometime think that if Base Goku post BoG is universal that mean everyone who fight him after that must be universal atleast, hell even Krillin should be universal because he push Goku to SSJ in ToP Arc who way stronger than himself in BoG Arc

Krillin is absolutely an outlier. Goku stated multiple times he was holding back against Krillin. Only Piccolo, 17, Gohan and Freeza scale to universal on the Z Fighters side of things. Krillin is stated to still be inferior to 18, who is shown and stated to be inferior to 17 by the ToP, because neither Krillin nor 18 have been training like 17 has.

 

[My_area]

@PFM18

So one last question do you disagree with Goku base one shotting SD punch through limit breaking or do you disagree with existence of base Goku absorbing god ki in general? I will change my response according to your answer after I respond within next week or so when I am free

 

[PFM18]

@PFM18
So one last question do you disagree with Goku base one shotting SD punch through limit breaking or do you disagree with existence of base Goku absorbing god ki in general? I will change my response according to your answer after I respond within next week or so when I am free

what do you mean by "absorbing God Ki" exactly? Do you mean Goku's SSG adaptation? And I think whatever you are trying to ask has been sufficiently answered by my responses in this thread if not the OP alone.

 

[My_area]

Base Goku absorbing SSG power like SSJ did is what I mean do you not believe on that or on base Goku limit breaking power being his base power?

Thread is too long so I cant check all of it right now

 

[PFM18]

Base Goku absorbing SSG power like SSJ did is what I mean do you not believe on that or on base Goku limit breaking power being his base power?

Thread is too long so I cant check all of it right now

Could you be more specific please? Not sure what you are asking

 

[My_area]

Sorry if I wasn't clear but I am asking that do you believe that base Goku destroying SOD isn't his base feat and only rage feat or do you believe that Goku absorbing god ki(SSG power) like he did with SSJ doesn't exists

Basically that do you think that base Goku destroying SOD is rage feat or that base Goku having SSG power doesn't exists at all and only SSJ god ki variant exists not base form hopefully I am clear now

 

[PFM18]

Sorry if I wasn't clear but I am asking that do you believe that base Goku destroying SOD isn't his base feat and only rage feat or do you believe that Goku absorbing god ki(SSG power) like he did with SSJ doesn't exists

Basically that do you think that base Goku destroying SOD is rage feat or that base Goku having SSG power doesn't exists at all and only SSJ god ki variant exists not base form hopefully I am clear now

I mean of course I believe that Goku "absorbed" the power he had from SSG. And yes, the SoD punch was a result of a rage boost and his base form going forward was NOT that strong. Therefore: SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>BoG SSG>>Base Goku(post-ritual)

And the common verbatim "absorbed into Base" makes no sense because the entire sequence where he had "absorbed" it, occurred as a SSJ. So if you are going to specify a form, it should be SSJ.