DC Comics herald-level characters upgrade discussion - Part 2

[Stefano4444]

Sorry for intruding on a staff thread, I'm just seeing this link go directly to Danny Phantom's profile

Sorry, i fix it.

Anywat i'm too sorry to intruding, but the feat was simply something too absurd to be used due of the actul context in the story.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

This feat had been firmly debunked.

Ok, I'll remove it later.

 

[Antvasima]

As I mentioned earlier, I think that quite a lot of the mentioned feats, combined with the ones that were displayed in your blog that we talked about via your message wall seem to warrant "At least 4-A, likely Low 2-C" or "At least 4-A, likely 2-C" for the post-Crisis characters at their peaks, and "At least 3-B, likely Low 2-C" or "At least 3-B, likely 2-C" for the post-Rebirth characters, but I would much prefer if we only use the most reliable/self-evident of those feats, not extremely arguable ones such as fighting a sentient human-sized miniature universe.

So about this...

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

not extremely arguable ones such as fighting a sentient human-sized miniature universe.

I mean if anyone has any problems, feel free to come up and give an argument as to why.

But moreorless, the main scaling point are from Superman and Hal Jordan, who themselves get: "Varies, up to 4-A/3-C. 2-C at his peak". Where everyone else scales is a different story.

Some might get a similar rating, some might be straight up 2-C, some are likely gonna scale to someone else or not scale to either at all and get straight up downgraded (Like livewire and Blue Beetle). It'll be case by case.

Also isn't the next step what Ultima suggested. I gave my rebuttal now I'm just waiting for the full tally.

This thread is for getting the feats accepted. The actual scaling itself will be handled in another thread since that is another can of worms. Before that tho, I'll put out the mass deletion thread.

 

[Armorchompy]

Ant, could you give me a list of the feats to you find acceptable? I'd like to give my opinion on the ones that are in contention, but I'd rather not waste everyone's time with those that are agreed upon.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, could you give me a list of the feats to you find acceptable? I'd like to give my opinion on the ones that are in contention, but I'd rather not waste everyone's time with those that are agreed upon.

Okay. I will check again.

[*]Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe. (JLA Classified #2, March 2005)

• Nebula Man is confirmed to be a universe. (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4, May 2006)
• Nebula Man was going yo destroy the universe. (Stargirl: The Lost Children #6, May 2023)

I find scaling to fighting a human-sized pocket universe very arguable. I do not think that our standard conventions allow us to scale extremely miniature pocket realities as being fully comparable to full-sized (infinitely large) ones, nor does it seem to logically make sense.

That said, it seems fine to scale this feat to the post-Rebirth continuity where the Nebula Man was apparently greatly powered-up going by the last linked scan quoted above.

Everything else seems fully acceptable to use in combination. Good job sifting down the feats to the ones that are actually reliable.

Also, Superman's 4-A feat of absorbing enough energy to vaporise half a galaxy should be mentioned as well.

 

[Armorchompy]

I find scaling to fighting a human-sized pocket universe very arguable. I do not think that our standard conventions allow us to scale extremely miniature pocket realities as being fully comparable to full-sized (infinitely large) ones, nor does it seem to logically make sense.

That said, it seems fine to scale this feat to the post-Rebirth continuity where the Nebula Man was apparently greatly powered-up going by the last linked scan quoted above.

That actually seems totally fair, yeah. Being a man-sized universe isn't really any tier unless Nebula Man has some mechanics that I'm not aware of.

I guess the only point of contention is whether they should be Likely 2-C with another tier, or just full on 2-C

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, agreed.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't really have an opinion on it (besides the fact that more tiers = more matches = more fun, which isn't really pertinent to a CRT), but is there a reason you'd be opposed to a full rating?

 

[Antvasima]

No, not really, beyond that the characters seem quite inconsistent in terms of power levels.

 

[Armorchompy]

I see. I don't have an opinion on that.

 

[Armorchompy]

By the way, I've missed the 4-A/3-B feats, could someone link them to me?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, from the top of my head, Superman absorbed enough energy to vaporise a half a galaxy, and Supergirl withstood enough energy to destroy multiple galaxies.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hm, I guess specifics can wait.

 

[LordTracer]

Remember that scaling comes in the next thread, y’all. This is just for getting the feats accepted, not for deciding how they’ll be implemented.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Remember that scaling comes in the next thread, y’all. This is just for getting the feats accepted, not for deciding how they’ll be implemented.

Well, idk, it's important when you gotta know if the character who perform said tier 2 even apply to the herald tier or not.
If they don't, the feat's useless

 

[LordTracer]

Well, idk, it's important when you gotta know if the character who perform said tier 2 even apply to the herald tier or not.
If they don't, the feat's useless

First of all, staff-only thread.

Second of all, obviously the characters performing the feats apply, otherwise the feats wouldn’t have been brought up to begin with.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

First of all, staff-only thread.

Second of all, obviously the characters performing the feats apply, otherwise the feats wouldn’t have been brought up to begin with.

Sorry, I forgot for a second

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have at least accepted all of the feats that Emirp listed in his last long post above, with the exception of the Nebula Man and Circe.

Does anybody else here have any objections, or should we close this thread and proceed to the scaling thread now?

 

[Theglassman12]

We have enough staff approval for the feats that aren't contentious right? If so we can just finish this thread and move onto the scaling chain stuff.

 

[KLOL506]

From what I’ve seen most of the “anti-feats” are more so lifting strength than flat out ap

Staff-only thread bro, don't comment unless you're given permission to do so.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Ok so, Emirp allowed me to post here in DMs, you could ask him just in case
I have another solid Low 2-C feat that I think is fairly blatant and could work.
The entire thing happened in Anarky (1999) #2-3
Basically, there's a monster that literally feeds on destroying the physical laws of the universe by existing

Anarky (he was in possession of a green lantern ring at the time) tries to contain it but fails

Anarky's supercomputer, Max, stated that the entire universe was in danger. Note that it was designed by Anarky himself and Anarky is smart enough to trick the likes of Darkseid and still power from them

Eventually the abberation warps the entirety of space time to the point where the universe is gun and all that's left is a white void

In the end, Anarky and Kyle Rayner work together to basically warp reality to bring the universe back, and then they destroy the Abberation with their sheer combined power
I think this should work

 

[Armorchompy]

Eventually the abberation warps the entirety of space time to the point where the universe is gun and all that's left is a white void

I might be wrong here but it just sounds like he's made the universe invisible with light manip (which granted is still a cosmic feat)

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I might be wrong here but it just sounds like he's made the universe invisible with light manip (which granted is still a cosmic feat)

it's been made pretty clear that the entirety of time and space was warped

 

[Qawsedf234]

They have no special properties, the only explanation is that the Entropy abilities have high enough potency to scale to a Universal level.

The Aegis is able to channel and increase power that strikes it. Its why it could channel B13's technology and Apokolips' magic beams into a single unified force during OWAW. The issue was never if it could rewrite the universe, but if it could do so on its own.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Basically, there's a monster that literally feeds on destroying the physical laws of the universe by existing

You left out the part that it was a slow process:

• Aberration gets larger and stronger with more time
• Anarky says it will first destroy the planet and then eventually the universe, meaning this is a localized event
• We literally see a barrier of what it can effect and what it can't

It's not Tier 3/s when Kyle and Anarky stop it. It would only become Tier 3/2 after enough time had passed and the universe fall under its sway, which never happened because they stopped it early enough. In addition the only reason they did stop it was because they turned the Aberration's only powers against itself.

t's been made pretty clear that the entirety of time and space was warped

It's somehow cast us into the future! This is what will happen if we don't get back and stop it!

They were thrown into the future where the Aberration was given enough time to gain control over the universe and they needed to travel back in time to stop this from happening.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have at least accepted all of the feats that Emirp listed in his last long post above, with the exception of the Nebula Man and Circe.

Does anybody else here have any objections, or should we close this thread and proceed to the scaling thread now?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

You left out the part that it was a slow process:

• Aberration gets larger and stronger with more time
• Anarky says it will first destroy the planet and then eventually the universe, meaning this is a localized event
• We literally see a barrier of what it can effect and what it can't

It's not Tier 3/s when Kyle and Anarky stop it. It would only become Tier 3/2 after enough time had passed and the universe fall under its sway, which never happened because they stopped it early enough. In addition the only reason they did stop it was because they turned the Aberration's only powers against itself.


They were thrown into the future where the Aberration was given enough time to gain control over the universe and they needed to travel back in time to stop this from happening.

first of all, I'm pretty sure a Low 2-C feat remains as such no matter how much time took. Especially cause the DC universe is, well, infinite.
And it did cast them into future not with just time travel BFR, but by actually manipulating space and time on a universal scale, as we literally see the universe going white around anarky.
And even if the Aberration warping the universe was overtime, Kyle and Lonnie warping it back definitely wasn't.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Well, I have at least accepted all of the feats that Emirp listed in his last long post above, with the exception of the Nebula Man and Circe.

Does anybody else here have any objections, or should we close this thread and proceed to the scaling thread now?

I'll let Da lunge give out his arguments for the Anarky thing, since that's the only thing left.

I'm pretty neutral on Anarky's feat so I'll stay out of it.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

The Aegis is able to channel and increase power that strikes it. Its why it could channel B13's technology and Apokolips' magic beams into a single unified force during OWAW. The issue was never if it could rewrite the universe, but if it could do so on its own.

Do you have scans for this? Also like Brainiac 13 isn't even around after OWAW tmk. So idk what relevance that would have during an arc like Apokolips Now, ntm it's attributed to its own power.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Especially cause the DC universe is, well, infinite.

The DC universe isn't accepted as infinite.

Universes in DC are far larger than the observable universe of our real world. While some stories from the different continuities treat a universe as infinite, this is contradicted by multiple stories about entities and items traveling "from the edge of the universe" or "across the entire universe" or "from every corner of the universe" not to mention the Source Wall which is the limit of the universe and as such, a universe is finite in size. The scans below are from 1991's Superman: The Man of Steel #115, which describes a more accurate universe size and can be used for every cosmology.

• 

  DC Comics Cosmology

  This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC's different cosmologies. In essence, the DC Universe has four dominant cosmologies which are characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, J.S. DeMatteis, Neil Gaiman & Mike Carey, and Scott Snyder...

  vsbattles.fandom.com
• 

  DC Comics Cosmology

  This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC's different cosmologies. In essence, the DC Universe has four dominant cosmologies which are characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, J.S. DeMatteis, Neil Gaiman & Mike Carey, and Scott Snyder...

  vsbattles.fandom.com
• 

  Flash (Wally West) (Post-Crisis)

  Wally West, better known as The Flash is a member of the Justice League and the former sidekick and successor of Barry Allen. As the "Fastest Man Alive", he is constantly caught in various world-shattering conflicts while trying to balance his heroics with his home life. Tier: At least 8-C...

  vsbattles.fandom.com

• It should be noted that the statements of an infinite-sized universe are, as quoted above, contradicted by the mere fact that it has an edge and probably mean a single universe in DC Comics is immeasurably large rather than being truly infinite as suggested in the three scans above.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you have scans for this?

Here. The Aegis can absorb energy and act as a crucible for stuff like that.

Also like Brainiac 13 isn't even around after OWAW tmk

The only reason they beat B13 was because of the Aegis teleporting it into the past

first of all, I'm pretty sure a Low 2-C feat remains as s

It doesn't, since they couldn't reverse it on a universal scale and only defeated it by turning its powers back on the creature. The creature also grows larger and stronger the more time its in the universe, meaning the monster they beat =/= it's universal effecting form.

Kyle and Lonnie warping it back definitely wasn't.

They didn't warp it back, they went back in time to stop it before it happened.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Here. The Aegis can absorb energy and act as a crucible for stuff like that.

The only reason they beat B13 was because of the Aegis teleporting it into the past

It doesn't, since they couldn't reverse it on a universal scale and only defeated it by turning its powers back on the creature. The creature also grows larger and stronger the more time its in the universe, meaning the monster they beat =/= it's universal effecting form.

They didn't warp it back, they went back in time to stop it before it happened.

That's not what happens. What happens is they manipulate the plank length on a universal scale in order to affect reality itself and bring the universe back.

Then they just destroy the aberration with their sheer power.
Not once is it stated that they turn its own power back to it
Kyle Rayner even blatantly creates an arm cannon he's shooting the monster with

 

[Qawsedf234]

affect reality itself and bring the universe back.

Anarky says they were thrown into the future and then after messing with the Planck length they are moved back to the past before the Aberration grew to change the entire universe. It was also time travel.

Then they just destroy the aberration with their sheer power.

Kyle says directly

A minute ago we changed reality. Maybe we can wish the Aberration out of existence!

The air's heating up around us! Aah! I'm... burning up!

Ignore it! Think only of one thing - beat the Aberration! Restore the laws of the universe!

I'm not seeing a Tier 2 feat here. Just time travel and something to do with how their thoughts interact with the Aberration.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Anarky says they were thrown into the future and then after messing with the Planck length they are moved back to the past before the Aberration grew to change the entire universe. It was also time travel.

Kyle says directly


I'm not seeing a Tier 2 feat here. Just time travel and something to do with how their thoughts interact with the Aberration.

They manipulated the plank length on a universal scale in order to bring back the universe.
I see nothing in Kyle's quote implying they're reflecting it's power back at it

 

[Qawsedf234]

They manipulated the plank length on a universal scale in order to bring back the universe.

They were sent to the future and after changing the length they were brought back to the past.

see nothing in Kyle's quote implying they're reflecting it's power back at it

Unless GLs can wish people out of existence I don't know what else eit could be. Even if they did kill ot with raw power it still wouldn't be destroying the Aberration in its Low 2-C state.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

They were sent to the future and after changing the length they were brought back to the past.


Unless GLs can wish people out of existence I don't know what else eit could be. Even if they did kill ot with raw power it still wouldn't be destroying the Aberration in its Low 2-C state.

The very reason they got sent to the future is because the Aberration warped space-time on a universal scale. We see Kyle saying that Space time is collapsing, and suddenly they're in the future. They got sent to the future BECAUSE the Aberration completely altered reality, which is how its powers actually work.
Then what Kyle and Lonnie did was that they affected the plank length, and they multiplied it more than billionfold, as the planck length is what separates the sub molecular world from the world fo physical reality. They do so across the entire universe, and Max explicitly stated that it allows them to act on reality itself. So they just warp reality on a unviersal scale which is textbook Low 2-C

And considering the Aberration collapsed space time almost instantly (again, they got sent into the future because it collapsed space-time)

there's no reason to assume it isn't always Low 2-C. And Kyle and Anarky literally destroy it just by shooting green beams at it, I don't see how is this anything but a showing of sheer power.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The very reason they got sent to the future is because the Aberration warped space-time on a universal scale

Its effects were still localized which is why when they got back the world was still as it was. Anarky even directly states that they were sent into the future and neither his computer or Kyle went against his claim.

They do so across the entire universe, and Max explicitly stated that it allows them to act on reality itself. So they just warp reality on a unviersal scale which is textbook Low 2-C

They altered reality to get them back into the present. They didn't undo the effects of the Aberration because at that point it had already fundamentally altered all of existence.

And considering the Aberration collapsed space time

It didn't collapse space-time, it wrapped it around Kyle and Anarky and sent them into the future where it had won. Then they went back to prevent that from happening.

there's no reason to assume it isn't always Low 2-C

There is because of the entire point of the arc. Anarky states the longer the Aberration is in the world the larger and more powerful it grows. First it will effect the entire Earth and then eventually the entire universe. When Kyle and Anarky fight the Aberration later they literally see the dome that indicates how wide its effects are and its expanding.

I don't see how is this anything but a showing of sheer power.

As Kyle literally says

A minute ago we changed reality. Maybe we can wish the Aberration out of existence!

The air's heating up around us! Aah! I'm... burning up!

Ignore it! Think only of one thing - beat the Aberration! Restore the laws of the universe!

They wish the Aberration out of existence, its not an AP showing.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Its effects were still localized which is why when they got back the world was still as it was. Anarky even directly states that they were sent into the future and neither his computer or Kyle went against his claim.

They altered reality to get them back into the present. They didn't undo the effects of the Aberration because at that point it had already fundamentally altered all of existence.

It didn't collapse space-time, it wrapped it around Kyle and Anarky and sent them into the future where it had won. Then they went back to prevent that from happening.

There is because of the entire point of the arc. Anarky states the longer the Aberration is in the world the larger and more powerful it grows. First it will effect the entire Earth and then eventually the entire universe. When Kyle and Anarky fight the Aberration later they literally see the dome that indicates how wide its effects are and its expanding.

As Kyle literally says


They wish the Aberration out of existence, its not an AP showing.

Them being sent to the future makes no sense because that's just not how the Aberration works.
It doesn't have wacky time travel superpowers, all it does is passively destroying universal concepts. The reason they were sent into the future is because it started acting upon space-time.
And no, I don't see how what they did was time travel. GLs have very direct time travel methods and it never required manipulating planck length. Max very directly states that they act upon reality
"A minute ago we changed reality. Maybe we can wish the aberration out of existence!"
Kyle confirms not only that they acted upon reality, but also implies that they destroy the aberration with the same type of reality warping, and since they do it by just firing green beams, it probably applies to AP

 

[Qawsedf234]

Them being sent to the future makes no sense

Its literally what Anarky says

It doesn't have wacky time travel superpowers, all it does is passively destroying universal concepts. The reason they were sent into the future is because it started acting upon space-time.

Its a alternate vibrational being that was shunted into the main DC universe. It outright negates the laws of space and time with its abilities. It moving them into the future is entirely within its power set.

Kyle confirms not only that they acted upon reality, but also implies that they destroy the aberration with the same type of reality warping,

They went back in time to stop the Aberration from changing the universe. Then they use a similar method of just blowing it up by warping it away.