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Okay, I guess we can apply the changes now.You should have enough now.
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Okay, I guess we can apply the changes now.You should have enough now.
Let's apply the changes first.What about scaling changes?
Oh for sure I just wanted to make sure that there eventually would be a CRT for the scaling stuff.Let's apply the changes first.
I unlocked the cosmology page.Okay, I guess we can apply the changes now.
I know a lot of different things about DC. Cosmology ain’t one of ‘em@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Emirp sumitpo @Catzlaflame @LephyrTheRevanchist @Eficiente @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Lonkitt @Maverick_Zero_X @ByAsura @M3X_2.0 @LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @Deagonx
What do you think about this? I think that it seems good to apply.
I'm not sure what you're referring to with this sentence.Well again, clearly some of it still exists in the newer cosmology, as accepted, so how much of it?
Comic Book Limbo is also Final Crisis Cosmology. This is the reason why I wanted a pre-2000 Morrison's Cosmology with Animal Man, Doom Patrol, JLA, ect.Does the wiki not acknowledge that Comic Book Limbo is Animal Man cosmology?
Because that was the only significant cosmological element from Animal Man that wasn't abandoned afterwards. However, this is off-topic so if you want to continue that discussion it should happen in the General thread.Sure, but does anyone here remember why Animal Man even got split? Relevance, it was viewed that Animal Mans cosmology was no longer relevant to the cosmology, thus it was split, weird logic but i digress.
Now, if Limbo is clearly something still relevant and retained most of its contexts, why don't we scale it using what we know about it from previous comics?
Exactly, that's what I said. Scale it thenBecause that was the only significant cosmological element from Animal Man that wasn't abandoned afterwards.
This is a cosmology scaling thread.However, this is off-topic so if you want to continue that discussion it should happen in the General thread.
Things outside Animal Man (such as the entire Crisis Cosmology) would not scale to the elements that are exclusive to Animal Man due to Limbo's inclusion in the later cosmology, if that's what you're suggesting. It has been proposed before and rejected for good reason.Exactly, that's what I said. Scale it then
No, I am saying Limbos scaling still exists in the later cosmologies because Limbo itself still exists in later cosmologies.Things outside Animal Man (such as the entire Crisis Cosmology) would not scale to the elements that are exclusive to Animal Man due to Limbo's inclusion in the later cosmology, if that's what you're suggesting. It has been proposed before and rejected for good reason.
Right, your point is fairly straightforward. I'm saying that this argument has been made and rejected before.No, I am saying Limbos scaling still exists in the later cosmologies because Limbo itself still exists in later cosmologies.
I understand, you're saying that if Limbo itself still exists, everything it may have scaled to within Animal Man must also still exist in the current cosmology and thus, everything that scales to Limbo scales to those things too.you have a structure introduced in a comic from 1992, the structure regularly makes appearances throughout the years, and thus it is still relevant, and it's context is still relevant (because it wouldn't make sense to ignore its context if, as an author, that's what you are referencing).
I've never mentioned any other element from Animal Man though. If you acknowledge that Limbo is a structure from Animal Man and that it is clearly still relevant, then it can be scaled.However, we don't consider that solid enough of a connection to warrant scaling, because the rest of those elements were completely abandoned, and Limbo being maintained does not mandate that the rest of those elements are also present if they haven't been referenced a single time in 30 years, and were only referenced in a single comic run.
Scaled to what, if not "other elements from Animal Man?"then it can be scaled
Well, beings from the "Unseen Council" are eight infinities above Low 2-C while the Light of Creation and the Great Darkness are at least nine or ten infinities above Low 2-C. There could be one more infinity if anyone could provide good evidence that the Fifth Dimension is qualitatively superior to Hypertime in the future.@Elizio33 How many layers into 1-B is the full cosmology?
Why "nine or ten"?Well, beings from the "Unseen Council" are eight infinities above Low 2-C while the Light of Creation and the Great Darkness are at least nine or ten infinities above Low 2-C. Unless, someone can provide good proof that the Fifth Dimension is qualitatively superior to Hypertime in the future.
I wasn't sure how much they transcended the Greater Omniverse and the Unseen Council, but they are for sure more than qualitatively superior to everything in the Crisis Cosmology. This is whyWhy "nine or ten"?
Bro, can you make a general discussion about DC cosmology?I added the changes. However, I still need to add the references.
@FinePoint
What do you think about this? I think that it seems good to apply.
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Respectfully, I do not think I am the person to ask.
As previously stated, I am more of a Marvel comics fan, and do not have much knowledge of the DC comics cosmology.
My knowledge of DC is focused specifically on the television and cinematic adaptations, of which I have seen most, but have not read any of the comics.
If not enough support is able to be found, then I could take the effort to research the topic and form an opinion, but otherwise, I believe it is best left in the hands of people more familiar.
Thank you very much for helping out.I added the changes. However, I still need to add the references.
Yes.Thank you very much for helping out.
Do the references still need to be added?
I would generally disagree with the notion that the Sphere has QS to the Orrery, given how routinely denizens of the Sphere and denizens of the Orrery demonstrated the ability to go freely back and forth and fight each other. I agree that the Sphere is higher in some capacity, but I do not believe it is infinitely so.Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious are Low 1-C given they have two infinities above Low 2-C.
I generally agree that the Monitor Sphere has QS over limbo, but I don't think Limbo is Low 1-C. When it is shown in Nil it's actually even smaller than a universe relative to the Thought Robot, so I would only place the Monitor Sphere a single level of QS above the Orrery.Comic Book Limbo is Low 1-C, it hasn't showed any signs of qualitative superiority over the Sphere of the Gods despite being positioned higher on the map of the multiverse.
The Monitor Sphere is straight 1-C due to its qualitative superiority over Comic Book Limbo, adhering to three infinities above Low 2-C.
The Other Place is explicitly the opposite of the Sphere of the Gods. It should be on the same tier as the Sphere.The Dark Multiverse and the Other Place are 1-C due to its all-encompassing nature which includes the Monitor Sphere.
The Totality of Creation/Divine Continuum is High 1-C for having the Dark Multiverse and Hypertime which is a three-dimensional time dimension, adhering to six infinities above Low 2-C.
Hypertime is High 1-C for scaling to the Divine Continuum, but no one has been shown to actually scale to its true nature, thus feats of creation or destruction involving Hypertime timelines should be considered 2-A depending on the context.
Per our rules on author statements, we can't scale things based on what authors have said if it hasn't been shown in the comics. I don't believe plane time or cube time have ever been officially connected to Hypertime and those concepts seems to only be referenced in that single comic. In practice Hypertime is just treated as a collection of infinite timelines, and I believe that is how we should scale it.Basically, Hypertime is a three-dimensional, time-based concept created by Grant Morrison and Mark Waid to allow all parts of DC's published stories to interact with each other. Morrison sometimes uses geometry as a metaphor to discuss Hypertime, using concepts such as "plane time" and "cube time". This is shown in The Return of Bruce Wayne and expanded upon in an interview, treating it as a three-dimensional concept, its basis being the "time point" containing all possibilities.
By simple geometry, the time point extent to create the "line time" or "line space a" representing the linear timeline from beginning to end. Time also extends laterally, so there is the "plane time" or "space b", an immense cosmic loom of converging and separating line times. The perpendicular of plane time is "cube time" which views the inhabitants of the Orrery from a higher-dimensional perspective.
The Sixth Dimension should not be treated as having QS to the Fifth Dimension, because Mxy was able to give Superman enough energy to allow him to reach the Sixth Dimension once the Source Wall was down.The Fifth Dimension is High 1-C for existing and flowing all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum, adhering to a higher degree of said tier, but it has not been proven to be qualitatively superior to Hypertime.
The Sixth Dimension is High 1-C for existing at the top of Divine Continuum and being the highest plane of existence, adhering to seven infinities above Low 2-C.
Beings from the Unseen Council are 1-B for being qualitatively superior to any realms of main DC Universe, including the Sixth Dimension, adhering to eight infinities above Low 2-C.
I am not sure we have enough evidence to say the Presence/Great Darkness have QS to the Hands. The Presence is certainly more powerful than them and created them, but I don't know if it's infinite.The Light of Creation is 1-B for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything in the cosmology, including the Greater Omniverse and the Unseen Council, adhering to nine or ten infinities above Low 2-C.
The Great Darkness is 1-B for having preceded and been the rival force of the Light of Creation.
Universal feats range from 3-A to Low 2-C whether the feat involves an entire space-time continuum or simply involves all matter in the universe.
Multiversal feats really depend on the context given in the comics and range from 2-C to 2-A, whether the feat involves all fifty-two universes of the Orrery or infinite universes or timelines.
Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Antimatter Universe are higher degree of Low 2-C than regular positive matter universes.
Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Orrery and the Bleed are Low 1-C given the fifth-dimensional level contained within.
Feats of creation or destruction of the level of the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious are Low 1-C, due to encompassing the Orrery
The Dark Multiverse and the Other Place are also Low 1-C due to being the opposite of the Sphere and Orrery
The Monitor Sphere is Low 1-C due to its qualitative superiority over the Orrery, adhering to two infinities above Low 2-C.
Hypertime is Low 1-C for scaling to the Divine Continuum/Totality of Creation, but no one has been shown to actually scale to its true nature, thus feats of creation or destruction involving Hypertime timelines should be considered 2-A depending on the context.
The Fifth Dimension is Low 1-C for existing and flowing all around and between the realms of the Orrery, and its inhabitants demonstrating power comparable to the gods of the Sphere.
The Sixth Dimension is Low 1-C for existing at the top of Divine Continuum and being the highest plane of existence
Beings from the Unseen Council are Low 1-C for being qualitatively superior to any realms of main DC Universe, equal to Perpetua at her full might.
The Light of Creation is Low 1-C for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything in the cosmology, including the various multiverses in the Omniverse, as well as creating the Hands.
The Great Darkness is Low 1-C for having preceded and been the rival force of the Light of Creation.
This is the first I have to disagree with. The Hands or, more so, the Judges are much superior to the Multiverse which contains the 6th Dimension. We've seen Perpetua's limits as opposed to the Hands who are her “superior” and could stripe her and everything in her Creation.The Unseen Council/Hands should not be considered to have QS to the Sixth Dimension, because they are the same race as Perpetua who resides in the Sixth Dimension.
The Great Darkness is much above anything by at least one degree of infinity. The Presence is the same as that extent. Though it doesn't change the tiering, I would regard those two as QS over the Hands.I am not sure we have enough evidence to say the Presence/Great Darkness have QS to the Hands. The Presence is certainly more powerful than them and created them, but I don't know if it's infinite. Though I don't feel too strongly about this that I'd make a big fuss of it.
The hands as a collective could do so, but the hands were explicitly Supercelestials, and Perpetua is a Supercelestial, even to the point of referring to them as brothers and sisters if I remember correctly. It's not logical for her to be a member of a species if the entire rest of the species is infinitely more powerful than her. She should be on the same level as them.This is the first I have to disagree with. The Hands or, more so, the Judges are much superior to the Multiverse which contains the 6th Dimension. We've seen Perpetua's limits as opposed to the Hands who are her “superior” and could stripe her and everything in her Creation.
The scaling I have proposed recognizes them as a degree of infinity above the hands, though I do believe the evidence for it is somewhat weak.The Great Darkness is much above anything by at least one degree of infinity. The Presence is the same as that extent. Though it doesn't change the tiering, I would regard those two as QS over the Hands.
They're all from the same place so considering them as siblings is not wrong. Angels regard Archangels as their brothers despite being at different levels of power. We've seen that she feared her siblings, who come in groups. It doesn't state that she is equal to them, only that she is like them and some Hands don’t create and that's possibly because they already ascended to a higher level.The hands as a collective could do so, but the hands were explicitly Supercelestials, and Perpetua is a Supercelestial, even to the point of referring to them as brothers and sisters if I remember correctly. It's not logical for her to be a member of a species if the entire rest of the species is infinitely more powerful than her. She should be on the same level as them.
It's just common sense and logic. There's not too much of a reason for concrete evidence.The scaling I have proposed recognizes them as a degree of infinity above the hands, though I do believe the evidence for it is somewhat weak.
No it didn't. Perpetua's entire goal was to fend off her siblings at some point. The whole narrative sort of lacks any punch if we take the approach that literally any single one of the hands was so impossibly above Perpetua that she never would've had any chance whatsoever.the story has sort of made that clear.
Common sense just means one's personal intuition, it isn't valid evidence. Logic is something we can apply to information about characters, so we would have to examine the logic involved and what information it is being applied to in order to see if it was a valid conclusion.It's just common sense and logic. There's not too much of a reason for concrete evidence.
im so confusedThere are some elements of this I would like to change, now that I have the time to look over it more thoroughly.
I would generally disagree with the notion that the Sphere has QS to the Orrery, given how routinely denizens of the Sphere and denizens of the Orrery demonstrated the ability to go freely back and forth and fight each other. I agree that the Sphere is higher in some capacity, but I do not believe it is infinitely so.
I generally agree that the Monitor Sphere has QS over limbo, but I don't think Limbo is Low 1-C. When it is shown in Nil it's actually even smaller than a universe relative to the Thought Robot, so I would only place the Monitor Sphere a single level of QS above the Orrery.
The Other Place is explicitly the opposite of the Sphere of the Gods. It should be on the same tier as the Sphere.
Per our rules on author statements, we can't scale things based on what authors have said if it hasn't been shown in the comics. I don't believe plane time or cube time have ever been officially connected to Hypertime and those concepts seems to only be referenced in that single comic. In practice Hypertime is just treated as a collection of infinite timelines, and I believe that is how we should scale it.
The Sixth Dimension should not be treated as having QS to the Fifth Dimension, because Mxy was able to give Superman enough energy to allow him to reach the Sixth Dimension once the Source Wall was down.
The Unseen Council/Hands should not be considered to have QS to the Sixth Dimension, because they are the same race as Perpetua who resides in the Sixth Dimension.
I am not sure we have enough evidence to say the Presence/Great Darkness have QS to the Hands. The Presence is certainly more powerful than them and created them, but I don't know if it's infinite. Though I don't feel too strongly about this that I'd make a big fuss of it.
With that said, I would rework the final segment to look like this:
She never stood a chance, she was bidding to do something rather than go down without a fight and then nothing. It's the same logic as Lucifer rebelling against someone who's unbelievably more powerful than him, but he tried either way despite the result not favoring him. Perpetua alone by herself was nothing and had to resort to making an army as being conduit of Crisis Energy to potentially stand a chance. Yet, they sent the Raptor that easily pinned her, her powers, and her entire army without too much of an issue.No it didn't. Perpetua's entire goal was to fend off her siblings at some point. The whole narrative sort of lacks any punch if we take the approach that literally any single one of the hands was so impossibly above Perpetua that she never would've had any chance whatsoever.
It was also said that Perpetua was the most feared out of all of her brothers and sisters across the greater multiverse, so again, this is impossible.
That's the point. You dwelled so much on the nuances of something that you forget sometimes we go by general belief or at least what the comic would atone to rather than flat-out admit they weren't “QS” over the Hands.Common sense just means one's personal intuition, it isn't valid evidence. Logic is something we can apply to information about characters, so we would have to examine the logic involved and what information it is being applied to in order to see if it was a valid conclusion.
But, again, my scaling incorporates them as having QS, so I am not sure what point there is in arguing about it.