Deltarune: Chapter 5 (SPOILER!!) Discussion Thread

[Comiphorous]

I think we're starting to reach with the “lots of assumptions” argument here, because it can be explained much more simply by saying that Ralsei is genuinely affected by it. Arguing otherwise doesn't really make sense either, especially when this entire segment is about him going against the rules as much as he can to reach Susie before talking to Flowery again.

If ralsei is genuinely affected by it, then it's still a really dog shit law manipulation on the angel's end since Ralsei just bypasses the puzzle anyways.

He goes to great lengths, like skipping the spike puzzle and outright destroying the box puzzle. Something he wouldn't do if he's completely this dull character that can only “listen to us” or “abide by the rules”, one could just say that he's genuinely being affected by it.

In this chapter alone Flowery literally mentions how Ralsei enjoys serving humans, (which Ralsei did not deny iirc) and Ralsei has displayed his fear toward us, the player. Him listening to us isn't a dull interpretation of his character to say he listens to the deity he prays to who he knows is planning on causing a great tragedy toward him.

Whether he is compelled to listen to us also isn't really relevant here, since we don't ask him to or not to do what he did.

He does bypass the situation, but only on his own terms by turning himself into a bridge. At no point is he shown controlling what the puzzle itself does. He clearly wants to keep progressing, but simply can't do anything else under those conditions.

Him turning himself into a bridge to bypass a puzzle is still breaking the rules of the puzzle. He is capable of breaking the rules in both scenes, so him being genuinely affected would mean said affect simply sucks.

Double edged sword. You either give The Angel really sucky law manipulation since people can just use technicalities to bypass it or just say **** off to it's control, or it does genuinely function completely and isn't buns law manipulation, but we've just never seen it actually function as intended ever against other characters, since the scenes previously mentioned still happened (potential menu)

Both interpretations are also equally silly and aren't combat applicable, since it’s a one-off showing of an ability.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

If ralsei is genuinely affected by it, then it's still a really dog shit law manipulation on the angel's end since Ralsei just bypasses the puzzle anyways.

In this chapter alone Flowery literally mentions how Ralsei enjoys serving humans, (which Ralsei did not deny iirc) and Ralsei has displayed his fear toward us, the player. Him listening to us isn't a dull interpretation of his character to say he listens to the deity he prays to who he knows is planning on causing a great tragedy toward him.

Whether he is compelled to listen to us also isn't really relevant here, since we don't ask him to or not to do what he did.

Him turning himself into a bridge to bypass a puzzle is still breaking the rules of the puzzle. He is capable of breaking the rules in both scenes, so him being genuinely affected would mean said affect simply sucks.

Double edged sword. You either give The Angel really sucky law manipulation since people can just use technicalities to bypass it or just say **** off to it's control, or it does genuinely function completely and isn't buns law manipulation, but we've just never seen it actually function as intended ever against other characters, since the scenes previously mentioned still happened (potential menu)

Both interpretations are also equally silly and aren't combat applicable.

Imagine you cant **** it off due lack 4 wall awareness

 

[Comiphorous]

Imagine you cant **** it off due lack 4 wall awareness

What the **** does that mean, kobe bryant?

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

What the **** does that mean, kobe bryant?

It means people wouldnt understand what flowery doing like sans with the buttons damage

It also works due the whole thing with the battle ui and configuration menu

 

[Comiphorous]

It means people wouldnt understand what flowery doing like sans with the buttons damage

It also works due the whole thing with the battle ui and configuration menu

Yeah but everyone is aware of the menu. Ralsei, Flowery, Susie, and Kris are all well aware.

 

[Edutyn]

 

[Randomuser3412]

Does any enemy other than Flowery take their full-on turn before you do? I don't mean like Spamton NEO, who does an "attack" (not in the battle box, though) that you're forced to avoid to progress, I mean their full battle box turn

 

[Comiphorous]

Does any enemy other than Flowery take their full-on turn before you do? I don't mean like Spamton NEO, who does an "attack" (not in the battle box, though) that you're forced to avoid to progress, I mean their full battle box turn

Don’t think so. That stuck out to me. I believe he’s the first character to do an attack first before the player in the same way sans does.

Unlike sans though, I doubt he gets anything out of it. I think when fighting him again after losing you get your turn first again.

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Yeah but everyone is aware of the menu. Ralsei, Flowery, Susie, and Kris are all well aware.

Noelle is not that much aware tho and kris and enemy literaly needed to teach her how it works

Also kris and ralsei fully 4 awareness while susie just have enough to understand the system

 

[Comiphorous]

Noelle is not that much aware tho and kris and enemy literaly needed to teach her how it works

Good thing they taught her, so she does know. Now everyone knows!

 

[Echidnacodefan2512]

Good thing they taught her, so she does know. Now everyone knows!

I mean she knows

 

[Edutyn]

Any good matchups for Flowery?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Any good matchups for Flowery?

I've seen people request him to fight Homelander (The Boys) and King Orange (Animator vs. Animation), though I haven't come up with an idea myself

 

[LittleGuy99]

I've seen people request him to fight Homelander (The Boys)

Flowery stomps

 

[Randomuser3412]

and King Orange (Animator vs. Animation)

King Orange stomps

 

[Comiphorous]

Any good matchups for Flowery?

Too high tiered for any of the fun match ups

too low tiered for the goated match ups.

What a world.

 

[Comiphorous]

By the way y'all getting slandered on twitter. Based off the replies, seems they read this forum time to time.

 

[LittleGuy99]

By the way y'all getting slandered on twitter. Based off the replies, seems they read this forum time to time.

Everything on this wiki is slandered, doesn't surprise me

 

[Edutyn]

By the way y'all getting slandered on twitter. Based off the replies, seems they read this forum time to time.

I've seen worse

 

[Edutyn]

Too high tiered for any of the fun match ups

too low tiered for the goated match ups.

What a world.

Duality of a flower

 

[Comiphorous]

I've seen worse

They should believe it not because it's true, but because city level flowery is very funny.

 

[GPR_Shadow]

You either give The Angel really sucky law manipulation

What about we consider the settings is something that can be affected by anyone with awareness ?

What if the settings is Kris's settings ? And we are simply see Kris got resist by Flowery

We are The Player in this world, not the developer, we have limited power because the developer gave us limited power, limited control over the world

Just my thoughts though.

Oh yeah, I want to talk about
The voice can't see our presence, despite us being there, until the soul up only then The Voice aware of our presence in his world

 

[Comiphorous]

What about we consider the settings is something that can be affected by anyone with awareness ?

What if the settings is Kris's settings ? And we are simply see Kris got resist by Flowery

We are The Player in this world, not the developer, we have limited power because the developer gave us limited power, limited control over the world

Just my thoughts though.

Gaster appearing and opening his personal dev config menu and just rips ralsei from reality.

 

[GPR_Shadow]

Gaster appearing and opening his personal dev config menu and just rips ralsei from reality.

Gaster appear to mess with The Player by make the Ralseis setting there and remove it after that

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

If ralsei is genuinely affected by it, then it's still a really dog shit law manipulation on the angel's end since Ralsei just bypasses the puzzle anyways.

Why do you think it was weak, lol? Law Manipulation is still Law Manipulation. Someone could genuinely turn off, for example, Gojo, and he'd suddenly find himself unable to do anything. If that isn't combat-applicable to you, then what exactly would make it combat-applicable?

I think you're also overlooking the fact that the player is still using the game's rules as a medium. The CONFIG menu isn't inherently theirs, nor are they uniquely capable of using it. So if someone can use it against the player as well, that doesn't somehow make the Law Manipulation weaker. It's simply because both parties are operating through the exact same medium.

Oh my God, can we please stop with the whole “the player is superior and therefore 1-A” thing? It erks me, because this is the same person that can be affected by Chara (they literally kidnapped us, sort of).

Him turning himself into a bridge to bypass a puzzle is still breaking the rules of the puzzle. He is capable of breaking the rules in both scenes, so him being genuinely affected would mean said affect simply sucks.

Double edged sword. You either give The Angel really sucky law manipulation since people can just use technicalities to bypass it or just say **** off to it's control, or it does genuinely function completely and isn't buns law manipulation, but we've just never seen it actually function as intended ever against other characters, since the scenes previously mentioned still happened (potential menu)

Both interpretations are also equally silly and aren't combat applicable, since it’s a one-off showing of an ability.

Someone can have Law Manipulation that prevents an opponent from doing anything meaningful without preventing them from thinking or walking. The existence of loopholes doesn't make the ability weak, it just means someone knows how to work around it (now imagine using it against someone who has no idea what the CONFIG menu even is). We literally have Sans, whose entire gimmick is exploiting and breaking the rules because he understands them. Does that make him weak?

The same applies to Ralsei. He doesn't bypass the puzzle's rules themselves, he turns himself into a bridge, which doesn't require interacting with the puzzle in any meaningful way. Let me ask this, if he were truly “unaffected” and genuinely wanted to progress, then why didn't he solve the puzzle the same way he does when he hasn't been turned off?

It isn't a double-edged sword, you're just making this far more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

This is nice, giving us both manipulation and resistance actually. He can on and off whenever he wants, while also being unaffected by the player's input.

 

[Comiphorous]

Why do you think it was weak, lol? Law Manipulation is still Law Manipulation. Someone could genuinely turn off, for example, Gojo, and he'd suddenly find himself unable to do anything. If that isn't combat-applicable to you, then what exactly would make it combat-applicable?

I think the angel being able to do what you just described would make it combat applicable. What they actually use it for is to change their controls and and occasionally suggest to someone not to use their sound clips. (which they only comply with said thing when they're on screen) Notice how config can't be used in a battle? Or the fact it can't be used on specific characters outside of one gag?

Like where did you get the idea they use it to disable someone's powers? The greatest thing that menu did to a character was make Ralsei stop helping Kris directly.

I think you're also overlooking the fact that the player is still using the game's rules as a medium. The CONFIG menu isn't inherently theirs, nor are they uniquely capable of using it. So if someone can use it against the player as well, that doesn't somehow make the Law Manipulation weaker. It's simply because both parties are operating through the exact same medium.

And flowery unironically showed more control over it then the player. Still doesn't change that Angel's/Flowery's use for CONFIG menu is more or less one gag that's very vague on what it really does in universe.

Oh my God, can we please stop with the whole “the player is superior and therefore 1-A” thing? It erks me, because this is the same person that can be affected by Chara (they literally kidnapped us, sort of).

I'm very much against 1-A Angel, i've been ******** on the idea since i started this argument. Also what the player does in undertale doesn't affect their scaling in Deltarune, so that isn't even an anti-feat toward Angel 1-A. Angel has a couple other anti-feats that destroy 1-A for them that's in the actual game they're in.

Someone can have Law Manipulation that prevents an opponent from doing anything meaningful without preventing them from thinking or walking. The existence of loopholes doesn't make the ability weak, it just means someone knows how to work around it (now imagine using it against someone who has no idea what the CONFIG menu even is).

That isn't what the config menu did. It just abstractly disabled "ralsei" to a degree they couldn't talk or help kris complete a puzzle, and we never hear of this setting ever again. Also yes if someone can bypass law manipulation because the law manipulation can be worked around by technicalities, that makes the law manipulation ass. Even Roulx's rules card doesn't have that issue.

Again, we're talking a 5 minute gag and tryna act like this shit actually adds anything beyond a minor law manipulation and a resistance to Flowery and literally nothing else. Since The Angel aint using it for shit that you've described so far and is gag dependent to affect characters.

We literally have Sans, whose entire gimmick is exploiting and breaking the rules because he understands them. Does that make him weak?

"The weakest enemy". It's kind of his thing.

The same applies to Ralsei. He doesn't bypass the puzzle's rules themselves, he turns himself into a bridge, which doesn't require interacting with the puzzle in any meaningful way. Let me ask this, if he were truly “unaffected” and genuinely wanted to progress, then why didn't he solve the puzzle the same way he does when he hasn't been turned off?

Didn't say it didn't affect Ralsei, but either it's sucky law manipulation because we don't know what it disabled beyond the ability for Ralsei to directly help Kris, or it's more like a suggestion to the characters it affects and Ralsei is compelled to listen because it's god telling them to.

Either way, it adds a really minor ability to Flowery and nothing else.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

What they actually use it for is to change their controls and and occasionally suggest to someone not to use their sound clips. (which they only comply with said thing when they're on screen) Notice how config can't be used in a battle?

Like where did you get the idea they use it to disable someone's powers? The greatest thing that menu did to a character was make Ralsei stop helping Kris directly.

Didn't say it didn't affect Ralsei, but either it's sucky law manipulation because we don't know what it disabled beyond the ability for Ralsei to directly help Kris, or it's more like a suggestion to the characters it affects and Ralsei is compelled to listen because it's god telling them to.

That isn't what the config menu did. It just abstractly disabled "ralsei" to a degree they couldn't talk or help kris complete a puzzle, and we never hear of this setting ever again.

What I argued for is more of a possibility what the CONFIG menu can beyond what we see in the settings. I already said this earlier:

There's also something that caught my attention. Flowery seems capable of bypassing the conventional turn-based system, as shown several times during his fights. One example is when he performs an ACT (the MERCY bar segment), yet still follows it up with a FIGHT afterward. Another is during his battle against the Knight, where he apparently always gets the initiative (I mean, he did say that the Knight can't run now due to this). He starts first, uses MERCY on Floradin, and then immediately performs a FIGHT against the Knight within the same turn.

I also believe the CONFIG menu has far more potential as a win condition for Flowery. He somehow manages to conjure an option like “RALSEIs” out of nowhere, which suggests the menu isn't strictly limited to predefined settings. I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, he were fighting someone like Gojo and suddenly added an “INFINITYs” option to the menu. I mean, that kind of absurdity is basically how his fights normally work (at least outside of his battles with the Fun Gang), isn't it? Even Seth is shown throwing the MERCY percentage during her fight, so the CONFIG mechanics already seem far more flexible than they initially appear.

I think this is worth noting on his profile, don't you guys think? This whole chapter is a whole lot mess of metafictional mechanic.

And flowery unironically showed more control over it then the player. Still doesn't change that Angel's/Flowery's use for CONFIG menu is more or less one gag that's very vague on what it really does in universe.

Flowery having greater control over the CONFIG menu just means we're suck at utilizing it, it doesn't make the hax itself weak. I mean, the guy literally conjure a RALSEIs option out of nowhere, something we never normally see in the CONFIG menu. Can we pull off the same feat? Nope. Does that make the ability weak? Also nope.

Also yes if someone can bypass law manipulation because the law manipulation can be worked around by technicalities, that makes the law manipulation ass. Even Roulx's rules card doesn't have that issue.

Again, we're talking a 5 minute gag and tryna act like this shit actually adds anything beyond a minor law manipulation and a resistance to Flowery and literally nothing else. Since The Angel aint using it for shit that you've described so far and is gag dependent to affect characters.

So, by that logic, Sans entire gimmick is weak, huh? We literally accept that his gimmick comes from exploiting loopholes and his knowledge of the system (you can literally see this on his profile). Damn, I guess it can't be helped, he can't use it as a win condition after all. Sans is doomed.

This chapter, like every other chapter, is segmented. That doesn't make the other sections any less important. In fact, this particular segment is literally the central explanation for how the mechanics work. It's not just a “gag” and can't be used (that would be silly), so what do you mean by that?

"The weakest enemy". It's kind of his thing.

Don't even joke lad. This guy beat Saitama.

 

[Comiphorous]

What I argued for is more of a possibility what the CONFIG menu can beyond what we see in the settings. I already said this earlier:

Could, should, if, but never "is" or "did"

It's a stretch for right now to make CONFIG Menu anything beyond minor limited Law Manipulation

Flowery having greater control over the CONFIG menu just means we're suck at utilizing it, it doesn't make the hax itself weak. I mean, the guy literally conjure a RALSEIs option out of nowhere, something we never normally see in the CONFIG menu. Can we pull off the same feat? Nope. Does that make the ability weak? Also nope.

What does make the ability weak is that these are just settings that kinda work under the pretense "is it funny?" since it's one gag that's showing off Flowery and Ralsei's rivalry that only works this way once.

So, by that logic, Sans entire gimmick is weak, huh? We literally accept that his gimmick comes from exploiting loopholes and his knowledge of the system (you can literally see this on his profile). Damn, I guess it can't be helped, he can't use it as a win condition after all. Sans is doomed.

Yes. Sans' entire gimmick is that he's a weak ass shit guy who uses the mechanics of the game against the player. Sans' fourth wall breaking stuff (Which is far more in depth and treated seriously) is a lot different than a one-off gag where flowery suggests turning off RALSEI where it kinda just made him incapable of helping kris. Anyone who relies on an ability like that would, in fact, be doomed.

This chapter, like every other chapter, is segmented. That doesn't make the other sections any less important. In fact, this particular segment is literally the central explanation for how the mechanics work. It's not just a “gag” and can't be used (that would be silly), so what do you mean by that?

Are you looking at the scene where Flowery adds a setting in your menu called "RALSEIs" and thinking that was supposed to be taken seriously? It's by definition a gag which holds no bearing on everything else, since Flowery never brings this up again. It's not a serious scene at all. We will still index it of course, but it's going to have something like "minor limited" attached to the beginning of it.

Like it would be a NLF to suggest anyone who uses the menu can do anything beyond what it's shown to be capable of doing.

Don't even joke lad. This guy beat Saitama.

It's literally what they call him in game. He's the weakest enemy.

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

Could, should, if, but never "is."

It's a stretch for right now to make CONFIG Menu anything beyond minor limited Law Manipulation

Are you saying we need a direct statement like, “Hey, I'm Flowery from Deltarune Chapter 5. I can violate the rules. Screw you, I just turned you off”? Is that really what you're looking for?

Obviously he isn't going to say something like that. The guy is a comedic character, he's a funny fella, his entire presentation is meant to be funny (the guy literally straight come out from an anime). That doesn't mean he can't or won't use the ability, nor does it mean his control is limited to the single RALSEIs option we've been shown.

What does make the ability weak is that these are just settings that kinda work under the pretense "is it funny?" since it's one gag that's showing off Flowery and Ralsei's rivalry.

Great, so now everything in the chapter is apparently just a gag and therefore weak. Seriously, this entire chapter is a mess of metafictional mechanics. There are a bunch of things that need to be addressed, and almost all of them have comedic implications. Surely we're not going to downgrade every moment in the game just because it's presented humorously.

Again, his entire portrayal is comedic. Up until his final confrontation with the Knight, everything he does is framed in a funny way. If we were to put him in a VS Thread what do you think would happen? Obviously he's not going to fight the exact same way he does with the Fun Gang, he's gonna do his own goddamn thing. He literally goes all out with the Knight, even utilizing the battle turn-based mechanic so that the Knight can't escape and can't have their turn. We get the idea how he would do in an actual fight with all he has, utilizing everything including the CONFIG menu isn't “far fetched”, that's what I'm saying.

Yes. Sans' entire gimmick is that he's a weak ass shit guy who uses the mechanics of the game against the player. Sans' fourth wall breaking stuff (Which is far more in depth and treated seriously) is a lot different than a one-off gag where flowery suggests turning off RALSEI where it kinda just made him incapable of helping kris. Anyone who relies on an ability like that would, in fact, be doomed.

You're not addressing my point at all. I know he's weak (everybody knows that), but the mechanic that he exploits isn't.

It's literally what they call him in game. He's the weakest enemy.

Grass is green. For God sake, I know he's weak, but that's not the same with the mechanic that he exploits. That little exploits make him powerful.

 

[Comiphorous]

Are you saying we need a direct statement like, “Hey, I'm Flowery from Deltarune Chapter 5. I can violate the rules. Screw you, I just turned you off”? Is that really what you're looking for?

I'm looking for people to stop looking into a 5 minute gag and assume this mf is gonna disable people's powers n shit. That isn't what it does, never used to do that, and is too vague and is a NLF to say otherwise.

Great, so now everything in the chapter is apparently just a gag and therefore weak. Seriously, this entire chapter is a mess of metafictional mechanics. There are a bunch of things that need to be addressed, and almost all of them have comedic implications. Surely we're not going to downgrade every moment in the game just because it's presented humorously.

It's not weak because it's a gag, it's weak because the one time it's used it's ******* ignored by the people being affected by it, and is directly stated to act as more like suggestions than anything else, with this being further pushed by the fact Susie and Ralsei should be having a say in whether she hears them or not, which wouldn't make any sense if it were as you were implying it is.

Again, his entire portrayal is comedic. Up until his final confrontation with the Knight, everything he does is framed in a funny way. If we were to put him in a VS Thread what do you think would happen? Obviously he's not going to fight the exact same way he does with the Fun Gang, he's gonna do his own goddamn thing. He literally goes all out with the Knight, even utilizing the battle turn-based mechanic so that the Knight can't escape and can't have their turn. We get the idea how he would do in an actual fight with all he has, utilizing everything including the CONFIG menu isn't “far fetched”, that's what I'm saying.

It is far fetched because if we recall the very scene you're referring to with the knight, he doesn't use the CONFIG menu. Almost as if the config menu is, as Flowery put it, more of a suggestion to the characters it affects. Saying Flowery would use that shit in combat contradicts the source material itself, because again it was a one-off gag. Plus CONFIG menu can't be used in a battle so it's literally by definition non-combat applicable.

You're not addressing my point at all. I know he's weak (everybody knows that), but the mechanic that he exploits isn't.

Yeah but the config menu isn't a powerful mechanic. He uses it once as a gag and by design can't be used in a battle scenario. It's a stupid comparison is what i'm getting at.

 

[Comiphorous]

 

[Jepilstiltskin]

I'm looking for people to stop looking into a 5 minute gag and assume this mf is gonna disable people's powers n shit. That isn't what it does, never used to do that, and is too vague and is a NLF to say otherwise.

All I'm seeing is, “It's non-serious, so we shouldn't count it as a win condition”, which, for the sake of stating the obvious, is just cherry-picking. The same logic could be applied to practically every segment in this chapter. Flowery having absurdly high stats? Nope, just a five-minute gag, can't use it. Flowery somehow hearing us even when he isn't present? Nooope, that's a gag too.

If we're going to dismiss things solely because they're presented humorously, then we'd have to start dismissing a huge portion of what the chapter actually establishes. Because, buddy, all of them ARE 5 minute tops gag, lol.

It's not weak because it's a gag, it's weak because the one time it's used it's ******* ignored by the people being affected by it, and is directly stated to act as more like suggestions than anything else, with this being further pushed by the fact Susie and Ralsei should be having a say in whether she hears them or not, which wouldn't make any sense if it were as you were implying it is.

So, is it weak because it's a gag or not? You're saying it is one moment, then saying it isn't the next. Be consistent.

Susie wants to hear them because she knows about the rules now that Flowery has told her. She didn't know about them beforehand, otherwise, why would she suggest adding VOICE CLIPS for herself because of it? This is the same girl that is confused in Chapter 3 as to why they can only “dance” when fighting Roulsx Kaard, lol.

These rules only become "suggestions" once you're aware of them. Now put Flowery in a fight against someone who has no idea the CONFIG system even exists.

It is far fetched because if we recall the very scene you're referring to with the knight, he doesn't use the CONFIG menu. Almost as if the config menu is, as Flowery put it, more of a suggestion to the characters it affects. Saying Flowery would use that shit in combat contradicts the source material itself, because again it was a one-off gag. Plus CONFIG menu can't be used in a battle so it's literally by definition non-combat applicable.

We don't see him using it, that doesn't mean he didn't use it. It's the same situation with him turning his VOICE CLIPS on and off whenever he wants, we're never given a direct shot of him doing it either. What's with Deltarune fans and this obsession with “literal feats!!!”, huh?

And it's not just the CONFIG menu that's treated as a suggestion. The mechanics of the game as a whole are treated that way. Brother, media literacy. Seth literally throws away the MERCY percentage because they don't want to be SPARED. That's a pretty clear indication that the rules themselves are flexible. I don't know why you're acting like this only applies to the CONFIG menu.

What's funny is that you're arguing against implication and interpretation, yet you're relying on them yourself while overlooking moments the game actually shows us (like Seth's interaction with the mechanics) which point in the opposite direction. I mean, come on.

Yeah but the config menu isn't a powerful mechanic. He uses it once as a gag and by design can't be used in a battle scenario. It's a stupid comparison is what i'm getting at.

Literally ignoring what I said, but okay.