Devil May Cry: 2-A Removal

[CloverDragon03]

Well, 2-A DMC has been accepted, but I don't like it so I'm removing it. Can't wait for someone to use this out of context to claim I'm just biased.

To make a long story short, 2-A was accepted in this thread on the basis of the Demon World allegedly being infinite relative to a Low 2-C structure, thus being theoretically capable of holding an infinite number of them, making it 2-A. On paper, this seems fine, but it's actually super flawed for a number of reasons. Let's get into them.

First of all: This thread was made as a result of the 2-A DMC one, and the standard that was decided on by said thread was that such structures aren't considered 2-A. Rather, we instead only consider the amount of universes actually being destroyed.

"But wait!" I can hear some of you probably saying in protest. "This isn't the same. It doesn't contain a universe like the thread says, it's directly compared to an existing one that it's infinite relative to!"

Well, ignoring the fact that the thread was made directly in response to the 2-A DMC one and thus clearly does include it and how this is just semantics since the verdict was to only consider how many universes are contained/can be destroyed... Is the Demon World even infinite relative to the Human World? To put it bluntly: No. I'll explain why.

So, the reasoning for this is dependent on this quote about how the Human and Demon Worlds were born:

The world is born of darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence, there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals.

However, this too is far from ironclad. The accepted thread assumes that the Human World is merely a single line of light compared to the Demon World's endless darkness, but that's not what's going on here. For starters, it says that the universe was split in two. This wording implies an equal split, and not only that, but using the English translation above, the phrasing "and the light became the domain of mortals" implies that this is what the light grew into rather than simply staying a single line of light. Even without that, though, the whole "split in two" thing remains prevalent in the raws. Plus, the visuals literally show the light is not infinitesimally smaller than the darkness. This is clearly not a higher degree of infinity.

This is especially relevant when you consider the number of times the Human and Demon Worlds were threatened to be merged, such as with Argosax in DMC2 and the Tree of Qliphoth in DMC5. If one realm was massively larger than the other, that wouldn't be a merge. It'd be an assimilation, going against the games' narratives. Hell, the DMC3 manga supports my point of view, as it says the darkness tried to cover the light while the light tried to escape, implying some form of equality between them as opposed to the darkness just easily covering the light.

For these reasons, the thread's proposed Low 1-C rating is also bunk, but that wasn't accepted to begin with so... yeah. Also, I noticed that some staff agreed with a 2-B rating for the Demon World? That's even more confusing, because 2-B genuinely has zero basis and I have no idea where it even came from.

With all this in mind, I propose that the DMC god tiers be downgraded back to 2-C. Given the narratives of the DMC games, it makes way more sense than any other rating for them. And with that said, I've said my piece, so feel free to discuss!

Agree: Antvasima, DarkDragonMedeus (fine with either a 2-C downgrade or Low 1-C upgrade), LordGriffin1000
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I agree.

 

[Da3ggman]

Man yall couldn’t let this shit last for more than a week

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I thought there was a time period before revisions on a discussed topic could be made again? Wasn't it like a month or something?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I thought there was a time period before revisions on a discussed topic could be made again? Wasn't it like a month or something?

3 months. And only if there was significant opposition.

 

[SeijiSetto]

I thought there was a time period before revisions on a discussed topic could be made again? Wasn't it like a month or something?

also in this case a thread passed (the container one that you made, mind you) that explicitly disallows getting 2-A from this.
leaving it up would just be inaccurate information especially when DMC was literally the case in question and the entire reason that thread was made.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Sigh...

Never change Clover, never change. I'll reply to it later I suppose.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

also in this case a thread passed (the container one that you made, mind you) that explicitly disallows getting 2-A from this.
leaving it up would just be inaccurate information especially when DMC was literally the case in question and the entire reason that thread was made.

I know I made that thread....

I'm was trying to make sure if the thread time rule applies or not. Because the thread could have been shut down without discussion if it did apply.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I know I made that thread....

I'm was trying to make sure if the thread time rule applies or not. Because the thread could have been shut down without discussion if it did apply.

Well Agnaa did gave me this thread and told me it wouldn't stop Clover or others to make a thread immediately.

So, there's that.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I know I made that thread....

I'm trying to make sure if the thread time rule applies or not.

It does not break the rule, since it was proposed by @Agnaa , to close it (last thread), and allow for a new thread to open since the result was a "compromise".

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Alrighty then, let's get this over with.

 

[Drite77]

Read this before and not a lot has changed, I agree with this, 2-C always made more sense for DMC then the rating they currently are

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Y'all should start seeing beyond vibes ngl

 

[SeijiSetto]

i agree, for the record
(it might be worth only counting staff votes or bolding them or smth to distinguish them from regular users)

 

[SuperSonicTL]

i agree, for the record
(it might be worth only counting staff votes or bolding them or smth to distinguish them from regular users)

Just name mods there and put what they represent in brackets. No need for bolds or anything.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Y'all should start seeing beyond vibes ngl

By that logic I could say y'all should start seeing beyond agendas but I didn't

Don't even

 

[CloverDragon03]

i agree, for the record
(it might be worth only counting staff votes or bolding them or smth to distinguish them from regular users)

I'm only keeping track of evaluating staff votes because those are the only ones that count toward a thread being accepted or not

Also the thread is perfectly fine to be made in light of new standards and also that going by precedent you only need to wait 48 hours to try overturning an accepted thread

 

[SuperSonicTL]

By that logic I could say y'all should start seeing beyond agendas but I didn't

Don't even

Those aren't agendas, those are logic you silly

 

[CloverDragon03]

There's no logic in 2-A DMC, it's a matter of how much you can get away with

 

[SuperSonicTL]

There's no logic in 2-A DMC, it's a matter of how much you can get away with

Proves my point.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Focus on making a counterargument, okay?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I'll make it whenever I feel like.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'll make it whenever I feel like.

This doesn't help your case though.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

This doesn't help your case though.

Never did before soo nothing new here.

 

[Palito266]

Is there a statement that says that the DW was cut in half instead of cut in two?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not to my knowledge, but I don't see how that matters. There's a clear intention here by the narrative with the dualistic light and dark imagery and all

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbf if the Human World is a line (1D) and Demon World is a whole universe (4D), then in actually the Demon World should be 7D off having 3 dimensions more.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tbf if the Human World is a line (1D) and Demon World is a whole universe (4D), then in actually the Demon World should be 7D off having 3 dimensions more.

The Human World isn't actually just a line

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Human World isn't actually just a line

 

[Robo432343]

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Guys can we avoid the passive aggression and focus on dealing with the thread ? Like this happens so often whenever it's a popular verse getting upgraded or downgraded

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Random-Helper323]

I have to ask, in the interests of honesty, is there truly no difference between the dimension simply containing a Low 2-C structure and being described as infinite darkness relative to a single line of light, implying an infinite size difference? That seems like a lot more information that the thread about containers seems to miss bringing up.

I also must say that the world being split in two doesn't really imply anything about the size of the two parts especially when we're talking about two spacially seperated dimensions, and becoming the realm of mortals doesn't automatically mean it grew infinitely larger, so that's a pretty big leap in logic. If it's not 2-A that's fine, but the demon world is definitely larger than the human world.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Whether it's a downgrade to 2-C or an upgrade to Low 1-C wasn't something I minded either way. I just felt as if 2-A seemed like a Golden Mean fallacy based on what I vaguely remember from the main points.

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

However, this too is far from ironclad. The accepted thread assumes that the Human World is merely a single line of light compared to the Demon World's endless darkness, but that's not what's going on here. For starters, it says that the universe was split in two. This wording implies an equal split, and not only that, but using the English translation above, the phrasing "and the light became the domain of mortals" implies that this is what the light grew into rather than simply staying a single line of light. Even without that, though, the whole "split in two" thing remains prevalent in the raws. Plus, the visuals literally show the light is not infinitesimally smaller than the darkness. This is clearly not a higher degree of infinity.

Split in two doesn't mean split in half. You can split a cube into two but not in equal sizes. Only split on half means they are equal. Also becoming the realms of mortals doesn't mean it grew larger. It's taking about the creation of humans. Humans later have been created there and it doesn't about the size of HW. Also being a line/ray against the endless darkness is supported many ways like how demon world contains infinite realms as its pocket dimension or random dimension. Mirror world, a 4D infinite realm is just an entry and pocket dimension for Demon World.

This is especially relevant when you consider the number of times the Human and Demon Worlds were threatened to be merged, such as with Argosax in DMC2 and the Tree of Qliphoth in DMC5. If one realm was massively larger than the other, that wouldn't be a merge. It'd be an assimilation, going against the games' narratives. Hell, the DMC3 manga supports my point of view, as it says the darkness tried to cover the light while the light tried to escape, implying some form of equality between them as opposed to the darkness just easily covering the light.

This is just not logic. Where stated that only equal realms would merge with each other? I can merge a drop of milk with a glass of water and they would merge with each other. Also demon world was assimilating/absorbing HW in DMC2 which is a solid anti-feat:

Also the scan you showed doesn't mean that. Pluto sealed the veil between them to both not have an interaction with each other, that is just implies this.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Split in two doesn't mean split in half. You can split a cube into two but not in equal sizes. Only split on half means they are equal. Also becoming the realms of mortals doesn't mean it grew larger. It's taking about the creation of humans. Humans later have been created there and it doesn't about the size of HW. Also being a line/ray against the endless darkness is supported many ways like how demon world contains infinite realms as its pocket dimension or random dimension. Mirror world, a 4D infinite realm is just an entry and pocket dimension for Demon World.

Be so fr, it's self-evidently intended as an equal split so this attempt at going "well technically it doesn't say that" just gets us nowhere. And the visual of the scan saying the whole "ray of light" thing doesn't even depict the light as being so infinitely smaller than the dark

This is just not logic. Where stated that only equal realms would merge with each other? I can merge a drop of milk with a glass of water and they would merge with each other. Also demon world was assimilating/absorbing HW in DMC2 which is a solid anti-feat:

Also the scan you showed doesn't mean that. Pluto sealed the veil between them to both not have an interaction with each other, that is just implies this.

If the DW was so infinitely larger than the HW then it would've already consumed the HW instead of that being an active looming threat

Also with the merge thing, this is the same kinda technicality abuse going against self-evident intent, to which I say again: be so fr. Your example isn't a merge, it's an assimilation. The DW and HW are merging, not one being assimilated into the other. There is nothing here that debunks my points

 

[SeijiSetto]

I have to ask, in the interests of honesty, is there truly no difference between the dimension simply containing a Low 2-C structure and being described as infinite darkness relative to a single line of light, implying an infinite size difference? That seems like a lot more information that the thread about containers seems to miss bringing up.

The Issue

Now, it is currently accepted that the space that separates and contains these infinite universes is by default infinite (because it would half to be to hold an infinite number of 4-D universes/space-time continuum or if it's stated to be infinite) with an insignificant 5-D Axis.

But the question is this. What happens if a character creates/destroys/effects one of these spaces that's stated to be infinite but the number of universe inside it is finite? To give an example... (Note: The original example was changed due to the character in question justification/tier being revised, so below is just a random example but still the same premise)

'''Multiverse level+''' (Destroyed a infinite space-time continuum that held several other universes within itself, due to being infinite, the space can theoretically contain an infinite space-time continuum)

As you can see, the 2-A justification is using the hypothetical logic that because the bigger space is likely infinite, it theoretically can contain an infinite number of space-time continuum. However, according to one of our staff members on the DMC thread, we don't have an actual standard for this. Which brings us here now.

this is the 2nd time you've complained that LordGriffin's thread doesn't actually address the specific case DMC was, despite it being made for that very purpose, and explicitly clarifying the same thing you're saying "uhh but it doesn't cover this" in the OP
have you actually read it?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Be so fr, it's self-evidently intended as an equal split

Source?

And the visual of the scan saying the whole "ray of light" thing doesn't even depict the light as being so infinitely smaller than the dark

It states that it's a single line of light in infinite darkness, and the scan is meant to show the light. It doesn't have to show all of the darkness to show you the ray of light. Also how do you visually depict an infinite size difference?

If the DW was so infinitely larger than the HW then it would've already consumed the HW instead of that being an active looming threat

The manga directly says the human world was forcibly seperated from it though.

Also with the merge thing, this is the same kinda technicality abuse going against self-evident intent, to which I say again: be so fr. Your example isn't a merge, it's an assimilation. The DW and HW are merging, not one being assimilated into the other. There is nothing here that debunks my points

This point seems to be entirely based on the word "merge" which isn't even the word used in the scan. It says "consume our dimension".

Again, if it isn't 2-A then it's not, but these suggestions that the worlds are the same size just don't have a basis. Looking above, you're claiming it's self-evident when both the writing and the visuals tell us the demon world is bigger, and you're heavily riding on the back of the word "merge" even though it wasn't even the word being used.

 

[Random-Helper323]

this is the 2nd time you've complained that LordGriffin's thread doesn't actually address the specific case DMC was, despite it being made for that very purpose, and explicitly clarifying the same thing you're saying "uhh but it doesn't cover this" in the OP
have you actually read it?

It was made to address it, but that doesn't automatically mean it covered everything. In fact the reactive nature of it makes mistakes easier. The thread asks if an infinite space containing a Low 2-C space is therefore 2-A via being theoretically able to hold infinite of it. It talks about being infinite and containing a Low 2-C space but does not seem to include the part about being directly referred to as infinitely larger than the other space in the question. That's why it was 2-A rather than Low 1-C.

 

[SeijiSetto]

It was made to address it, but that doesn't automatically mean it covered everything. In fact the reactive nature of it makes mistakes easier. The thread asks if an infinite space containing a Low 2-C space is therefore 2-A via being theoretically able to hold infinite of it. It talks about being infinite and containing a Low 2-C space but does not seem to include the part about being directly referred to as infinitely larger than the other space in the question. That's why it was 2-A rather than Low 1-C.

what difference would it make
the original DMC 2-A thread proposed for it to get 2-A via the Demon Realm being infinitely larger than a Low 2-C structure (quoting from the blog linked in the OP)

The Beginning Of The World​

"The world is born of darkness. Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence, there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals."

The world was originally born from darkness (the human world) as a small ray of light in this Endless Darkness that is the demon world, it very important to note that the human world is already accepted as a Low 2-C structure, and it's an infinitely small subset of the demon world, making it overall a 2A structure in size as of now atleast.

if a containing space can hold an infinite number of a Low 2-C structure, does it not go to reason that it would be infinitely larger than a single one, thus ending at the same conclusion?