DOOM: Cosmology upgrade

[Dicelium]

Just skimmed through the thread, even Ultima said in the thread being an extension of something doesn't mean the being transcends what the realms are an extension of. Also there's little to no explanation on the void being something transcendental to the entire cosmology here, just that nothing existed and Davoth made everything back in the day. Idk how making numerous 2-A structures there is enough for a dimensional jump. Does the Void have anything else like transcending space and time or transcending the realms it inhabits or no?

The Void was the first thing Davoth created, and all of reality, hell, urdak and the likes "lie" in it. The void "lies" between and around all dimensions in doom.
The engines of creation lie in the void, described to be "on the other side of reality itself.

They breach the Void's "walls" to touch the physical world, implying that the void is non-physical

*note that the dimensional spaces of the universes are included as part of the physical world.

The engines of creation also spin in (into the physical word) and out of existence (back into the void).
The Seraphs create life spheres or revive them using the powers of the Void.


Summary- The Void is:
The "Container" for everything in the doom franchise.
Beyond reality and existence itself. (in a superior manner)
Non-physical
formless.

And for further context, hell connects itself to all other universes using pathways of darkness that go "through" the void, and are stated to transcend space and time.
Source: Lamentation of the Seraphs , The art of Doom Eternal

Yes it has those. Hell connects itself to universes (that it is consuming) by pathways of darkness transcending space and time that extend through the void.
even these transcendent pathways are still not the void, with it surpassing even them. Hell has many more statements of transcending space and time, being unlimited by the boundaries of space, time and dimension, yet the description of the void in my previous reply hold true for even that.
In TDA, we learn of the cosmic realm, a 5d spacetime continuum (Has structures of impossible geometry, shapes only possible in 4d space, etc.) that while quite powerful to the point that a demon prince seeks its power, is still part of the mortal world as Hell is the only universe to naturally exist beyond it and Urdak has to maintain its separation with dimensional shift technology powered by hell's essence (To be more accurate its argent energy).
The void contains the infinitely expanding universes of the mortal world with no problem whatsoever.
The father, a primeval level entity relative to Davoth who created everything effortlessly by his mere presence, held all of creation in his arms. Meaning the mortal universe, even hell(?) and Urdak (even a baseline 5D universe like the cosmic realm) were finite compared to the father and the void, despite the number of universes continuously increasing by an uncountably infinite amount.

If you can upload the images into an imgur link and send it here that would be preferrable.

Also I checked the QnA section of the page in regards to this, just being "bigger than a 2-A structure" in the context of the Void holding numerous 2-A structures wouldn't qualify for a dimensional jump.

To elaborate, a structure larger than 2-A meets the requirements for dimensional superiority over them if it either explicitly mentions an uncountably infinite number of universes or has portrayals/statements of being larger than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it. - Tiering system FAQ linked above

With the above context and how ALL of creation is still qualitatively the same to the void, it should be at least 1D higher than everything else.

 

[Udlmaster]

Just skimmed through the thread, even Ultima said in the thread being an extension of something doesn't mean the being transcends what the realms are an extension of. Also there's little to no explanation on the void being something transcendental to the entire cosmology here, just that nothing existed and Davoth made everything back in the day. Idk how making numerous 2-A structures there is enough for a dimensional jump. Does the Void have anything else like transcending space and time or transcending the realms it inhabits or no?

After having an unfortunate discussion with Hellscream about the verse, this was my conclusion too.

Nothing in the provided texts displays any degree of transcendentalism or, as Hellscream wanted to ask for, Beyond-Dimensional Existence type 2.

The Void he described is, what I call, a Bathtub void. Existence simply sits inside of it like a rubber duck does in a bathtub. The bathtub is simply larger than the duck, not transcendent.

 

[Hellscream]

After having an unfortunate discussion with Hellscream about the verse, this was my conclusion too.

Nothing in the provided texts displays any degree of transcendentalism or, as Hellscream wanted to ask for, Beyond-Dimensional Existence type 2.

The Void he described is, what I call, a Bathtub void. Existence simply sits inside of it like a rubber duck does in a bathtub. The bathtub is simply larger than the duck, not transcendent.

"After having an unfortunate discussion" lol.

I don't mind posting the full conversation here.

Also, you should make a thread for the validity of the codex

 

[Udlmaster]

"After having an unfortunate discussion" lol.

I don't mind posting the full conversation here.

Also, you should make a thread for the validity of the codex

I didn't mention the validity of the codex in my post.

And if you want, you can post the full conversation, however inappropriate it is to ask someone something in private and then make the conversation public.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Hellscream @Udlmaster

Let's not delve into private matters.

 

[Udlmaster]

@Hellscream @Udlmaster

Let's not delve into private matters.

I quite agree.

My disagreement stems entirely from being shown information, disagreeing and then coming to see what the on-site situation is.

I've asked Hellscream if there was any more information on the Void and he said there wasn't any, so without any more information, I firmly disagree with the Void being anything more than a larger structure without being transcendentally superior.

 

[Hellscream]

I didn't mention the validity of the codex in my post.

And if you want, you can post the full conversation, however inappropriate it is to ask someone something in private and then make the conversation public.

You shouldn't really bring up "an unfortunate discussion" in the first place then, if you want these matters to stay private.
Just saying lol.

Also, you know what i think of your argumentation, arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[Udlmaster]

You shouldn't really bring up "an unfortunate discussion" in the first place then, if you want these matters to stay private.
Just saying lol.

Also, you know what i think of your argumentation, arguing for the sake of arguing.

I'd prefer you keep the barbs to yourself. We've both already been told not to delve into private matters.

And clearly, my opinion seems to be shared by people on this thread.

 

[Hellscream]

I'd prefer you keep the barbs to yourself. We've both already been told not to delve into private matters.

And clearly, my opinion seems to be shared by people on this thread.

I mean, these matters are private, because you want them to be, im fully open to post the conversation which shouldn't be against the wiki rules, if both parties agree right?

Either way, im open to post the convo, if you want them to remain private then i'll drop it np

 

[Udlmaster]

I mean, these matters are private, because you want them to be, im fully open to post the conversation which shouldn't be against the wiki rules, if both parties agree right?

If you want to continue arguing this irrelevant discussion, ask me on my page/message wall.

Your continuing to bring it up after being told by a mod to not delve into private matters is not helping your case.

 

[Hellscream]

Okay, so you don't wish for the conversation to be public i understand.
That's all i needed to know

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay, so you don't wish for the conversation to be public i understand.
That's all i needed to know

I've told you repeatedly. Move this irrelevant discussion to my message wall, not this thread. The admin has already warned you about continuing it in this thread.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Hellscream Those scans and the summary you gave just tells me that the Void is mostly the source of where all dimensions and existence in the DOOM universe comes from. The whole thing with creating a barrier between the void and the realm doesn't tell me much about a higher dimensional transcendence. Sparda from Devil May Cry does something similar with the Human world and Demon world being split apart and making a dimensional barrier that separates the two, but one realm isn't just automatically superior to the other because of it. The whole thing with the void turning you nonexistence just tells me the void just kills anything or anyone that comes close to it, which doesn't say much about it being a transcendent realm.

@Firestorm808 if that's the case then the 7-D Davoth upgrade just doesn't exist since this isn't even a real transcendence here.

@Dicelium Hell transcending space and time is irrelevant in the main thing that I'm focusing on, which is Davoth supposedly just transcends the cosmology just because he's from the Void. BTW you do know that saying Hell is still qualitatively the same to the void goes against the void transcending Hell right? If Hell and the void are the same then the void doesn't transcend the cosmology, it's still a part of the cosmology going off your argument.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Hellscream @Udlmaster

Drop it, both of you.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I did always feel fishy about Void being +1-D based on current standards for the tiers but really never bothered and went with what was accepted.

 

[Hellscream]

@Hellscream Those scans and the summary you gave just tells me that the Void is mostly the source of where all dimensions and existence in the DOOM universe comes from. The whole thing with creating a barrier between the void and the realm doesn't tell me much about a higher dimensional transcendence. Sparda from Devil May Cry does something similar with the Human world and Demon world being split apart and making a dimensional barrier that separates the two, but one realm isn't just automatically superior to the other because of it. The whole thing with the void turning you nonexistence just tells me the void just kills anything or anyone that comes close to it, which doesn't say much about it being a transcendent realm.

@Firestorm808 if that's the case then the 7-D Davoth upgrade just doesn't exist since this isn't even a real transcendence here.

@Dicelium Hell transcending space and time is irrelevant in the main thing that I'm focusing on, which is Davoth supposedly just transcends the cosmology just because he's from the Void. BTW you do know that saying Hell is still qualitatively the same to the void goes against the void transcending Hell right? If Hell and the void are the same then the void doesn't transcend the cosmology, it's still a part of the cosmology going off your argument.

You're misunderstanding the codex, these structures, become nonexistent in the void, but become existent again, when in the physical world.
Meaning they're not "killed" they just become non-existent when in the void due to it's nature.
Dimensional structures become non-existent when going through the wall that seperates reality from the void, and become existent again when in the physical world, due to going through walls that seperate them.

being becomes non-being in the void, it doesn't "just kill anything" that comes into it.
Should be a clear sign of the void being superior, compared to reality itself.
That, and that the power needed to create gods like the father, comes from the void, not reality.
all of these are obvious indications that the void is superior to reality.

 

[Theglassman12]

How does something being nonexistent mean that you dimensionally transcend the cosmology? You haven't explained how or why that translates to an actual dimensional jump.

 

[Hellscream]

How does something being nonexistent mean that you dimensionally transcend the cosmology? You haven't explained how or why that translates to an actual dimensional jump.

because geometric dimensions themselves, become non-existent when in the void, which obviously implies it's superiority.
that's my argument.

whether it's 1D, 4D, or a H1B+ structure is irrelevant.

 

[Udlmaster]

@Hellscream Those scans and the summary you gave just tells me that the Void is mostly the source of where all dimensions and existence in the DOOM universe comes from. The whole thing with creating a barrier between the void and the realm doesn't tell me much about a higher dimensional transcendence. Sparda from Devil May Cry does something similar with the Human world and Demon world being split apart and making a dimensional barrier that separates the two, but one realm isn't just automatically superior to the other because of it. The whole thing with the void turning you nonexistence just tells me the void just kills anything or anyone that comes close to it, which doesn't say much about it being a transcendent realm.

I would also like to draw people's attention to some off-site changes made by the people involved in this thread, as I was quoted a section from the "Doom" fandom wiki.

When I looked up the quote, It took me to "The Void" page on DOOM wiki;

The Void is that which encompasses and contains everything in Doom, including Hell itself. The first of Davoth's "creations", it is non-physical, non-existent, dimensionless, formless and beyond reality. The Engines of Creation, vast interdimensional structures in the void, spin out of the nonexistence of the void back into the physical world at the Luminarium.

Little else is known about it. As it is that which separates universes from one another, Interdimensional travel is often referred to as "Passing through the void". The higher beings above even Davoth that Hugo Martin has alluded to may very well "exist" beyond the void, if at all.

You will immediately notice no sources for this, but more importantly, who made this page and wrote out this information and added to it:

• Dicelium
• Baldiback3162

Baldiback3162 in particular has actually vandalised the "Book of the Seraphs" page and made up text, saying ", with the Void being completely non-physical" when this is the original text.

He also added, baselessly, the "non-physical, non-existent, dimensionless, formless" to the Void page.

He adds to the Doom Slayer page "After Doomguy uses Divine machine, he achieves a power that is beyond differentiation, changeless, indivisible, ineffable, self-sufficient and completely unsurpassable"

And lastly, a vandalism of the "Story of the Sentinels" page, replacing "move through space and time" to "access all of space and time"

All of the above were changed made the in past week, showing vandalism based on this thread to support unfounded arguments. And while Dicelium doesn't seem to be maliciously editing other wiki's pages, Baldiback3162 clearly is.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Hellscream That doesn't remotely mean you transcend it. Your entire timeline can turn into a void but that doesn't mean you transcend it. There being literally nothing doesn't tell me much about the dimension itself being transcended.

@Udlmaster Umm.... yikes wtf. This is why we shouldn't be reliant on other wikis for scans as opposed to just getting the screenshots from the game itself.

 

[Hellscream]

Guys.. everything i've used for my argument comes directly from the codex lol.
I've read it 200 times, i know it out of my head.

None of the changes that were made in the wiki, have anything to do with my argument either way.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Hellscream I'm not referring to you specifically, I'm talking about anyone who scales this series that keeps using the wiki as source rather than just getting the text from the game itself.

 

[Hellscream]

@Hellscream That doesn't remotely mean you transcend it. Your entire timeline can turn into a void but that doesn't mean you transcend it. There being literally nothing doesn't tell me much about the dimension itself being transcended.

@Udlmaster Umm.... yikes wtf. This is why we shouldn't be reliant on other wikis for scans as opposed to just getting the screenshots from the game itself.

?.. It's above "transcending it" geometric dimensions themselves are irrelevant compared to it.
Im saying that even a H1B+ structure would be non-existent in the void.
And the verse blatantly relies upon it's power, via the engines of creation (luminarium) to create gods, which is yet another indication of it's superiority.

It's superior due to it's state of non-existence

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm talking about anyone who scales this series that keeps using the wiki as source rather than just getting the text from the game itself.

It's more-so video game franchises in general where you have to screenshot any text they give you.

Other users and I took the time to transcribe the Codex entries for ease of access and reading, but now someone tried to alter them.

 

[Firestorm808]

I would suggest finishing what's already accepted for the Multiverse and Hell. Drop the stuff with the Void. Save it for another thread.

@Theglassman12 Is that acceptable?

 

[Hellscream]

I would suggest finishing what's already accepted for the Multiverse and Hell. Drop the stuff with the Void. Save it for another thread.

Uhh sure, im fine with that.

 

[Firestorm808]

I will be closing this thread and only applying the agreed 5-D and 6-D revisions. Any comments or concerns?

@Qawsedf234
@DarkDragonMedeus
@Theglassman12

 

[Axxtentacle]

Baldiback3162 in particular has actually vandalised the "Book of the Seraphs" page and made up text, saying ", with the Void being completely non-physical" when this is the original text.

He also added, baselessly, the "non-physical, non-existent, dimensionless, formless" to the Void page.

He adds to the Doom Slayer page "After Doomguy uses Divine machine, he achieves a power that is beyond differentiation, changeless, indivisible, ineffable, self-sufficient and completely unsurpassable"

Somewhat derailing, but this is word for word copypasted from tier 0 on the tiering system page. Might want to look through the rest of his scans and verify they aren't altered as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I will be closing this thread and only applying the agreed 5-D and 6-D revisions. Any comments or concerns?

Not really

 

[Udlmaster]

Somewhat derailing, but this is word for word copypasted from tier 0 on the tiering system page. Might want to look through the rest of his scans and verify they aren't altered as well.

I brought it up as it’s relevant to the OP’s honesty towards engaging with us and their argumentation in this thread.

As it’s a serious infraction to do this.

 

[Hellscream]

Somewhat derailing, but this is word for word copypasted from tier 0 on the tiering system page. Might want to look through the rest of his scans and verify they aren't altered as well.

the brunt of the argument for this thread, was this which isn't edited.

"Within the infinite conscious-matrix of the all-seeing Maykr God-mind, there exists every potentiality - every predictive variable of possible future timeline - each one known to the Maykr collective with omniscient, inextricable clarity. The God-mind surveys these timelines, watching them form and expand exponentially like fractal patterns in the fabric of existence"​

Also, the void part isn't necessarily false. the interpretation is correct.

However, the part of the sentinels having access to all of space time, is not something stated.

"He adds to the Doom Slayer page "After Doomguy uses Divine machine, he achieves a power that is beyond differentiation, changeless, indivisible, ineffable, self-sufficient and completely unsurpassable""

this is also not stated.

​

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will be closing this thread and only applying the agreed 5-D and 6-D revisions. Any comments or concerns?

@Qawsedf234
@DarkDragonMedeus
@Theglassman12

Fair enough.