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Downgrading the Dream Depot's size to at least low 2-C.

Mephistus, am I really going to have to keep repeating myself over and over until you finally understand?

Dreambert is literally reffering to Mario's world, prior to being sealed in the nightmare chunks he existed in the real world. There's no reason for us not to say universe. The difference between using games like Super Mario Bros over Galaxy and Super Paper Mario is that those games don't focus on traveling to literal separate worlds. Dream Team has you constantly switching to the real world and the dream worlds. These are not the same case at all. And when Dreambert is comparing the real world to the dream world, he is reffering to all of them. Your points relating to Bowser are awful, the burden of proof is on you. You need to prove otherwise to what I said, otherwise I can just dismiss it.

Dimensions varying in size is irrelevant, this only applies to other verses with this issue. If dimensions can be universes in one Mario game, there's outright no reason why it cannot with another. Again, this is nitpicking. If several dreams are universes then it's not an assumption to say the rest are in this case. I've already made my point with how it works in Dream Team this refers to all of them. Your argument against this is we don't know what world could mean despite having other references to world/dimension meaning universes. Using things like Dimension D isn't a good example because that was specifically stated to be a mini-dimension.

Only seeing part of something =/= That's the whole thing.

@Maverick Those are only focusing on the themes for the dreams, those aren't the entire thing. You can literally see clouds above the stage you play on, and the underwater dream obviously only being underwater, further proving this isn't it's full size.
 
Going by what you've claimed so far in this thread without even bothering to show a shred of source evidence regarding the actual size of dreams/dimensions here being all grouped as universes or alternate realities its evident you are the one making up stuff, Average dream? Really? Citation that Future Dream is called verbatim called average dream? Again I bring this conversation back to its crux. Dream worlds don't have a standard size and this definition of dream worlds/dimensions being universes is an association fallacy at its finest because dimensions in the verse are not all universe sized, there are 4-A ones to consider too from Super Mario 64 that are named the same as "worlds". There is zero reason to think Bowser ruining the dreams has to work at a standard pace, this is further headcanon which you have yet to back up and them running around the gameboard doesn't even allow Bowser to start his process of ruining stuff on-screen. The plot doesn't treat them as the same size if they are not about cosmic scale settings, one of the dreams is about being in an underwater setting for cripes sake and the size of them do get treated the same as any dimension would be treated on this site, by its own visuals or relevant statements showing its universe sized. You have only a provably one or a couple at best which don't number in a thousand and one or greater in confirmed number of shown universes to qualify for 2-B, rather even then it would be a shaky 2-C. (ignoring the extremely obvious arguement that lolbottomlesspits are hyperbole and even lorewise uncertain to be truly bottomless and that Mario's planet is finite sized) . I don't even inherently trust the arguement made that there is another dimension of the dream depot's Future Dream since Flopside needed to be created by the Ancients before that statement even mattered.

The dreams in dream team are 4-A size at best if not lesser due to lacking sky visuals of celestial objects, Antasma's dream world just having a plain purple sky, without further context of them all being equal in size. You actually need evidence of parallelism for each and every dream, this is a baseless claim you are making that they are all "parallel, dreams lack visuals to even say they are that size and are specifically stated to embody non cosmic things, like exploring the undersea ocean, which would be at best a 5-B sized realm around the same size as our Earth at best if you assume off-scree its a full ocean which definitely draws skepticism to them even being cosmic sized if what we see on screen for a lot of the dreams is merely something a couple tens of meters in size, underwater dream one being one I'll decide to pick on. I can't stress this enough. You have examples of one certain parallel world in Mario's verse in color splash being a universe with paint but no examples of all the dreams or dream worlds being the same size. This context is critical because otherwise we default to what we see in each dimension. Which is not a whole lot and a lot of dreams should be left at unknown size. We cannot assume they are all the same size without further context and we don't know what size they are outside of baselessly assuming that they are equal to Future Dream, let alone the football sized. Even going by Neo's blog with the particles, the amount of dimensions that would be presumably the size of the underwater dream would still mean that it'd be lacking in getting qualified as universe sized, which i still write off since they are all unknown size without direct and supplied context of parallelism to Future Dream and because we don't see inside said dream worlds that particles would supposedly dream about and bring into existence by dreaming.

You are claiming that creating dreams is supposed to be some sort of thing that isn't relative to the dreamer themselves, in which case the Mario Party 5 booklet clearly shows Mario and the cast have better talent in that regard. Creating dream worlds in of itself is made in-verse by dreaming; this whole point you made is still a non-sequitor since this doesn't prove that the qualities of each dream need to neccessarily be the same nor parallel without further context, especially considering each dream has different sceneries and visuals that are lacking to call them a universe. I rest my case if i have to repeat yet again that there is zero examples of all dreams in the series being equal to each other in size via a direct comparison. Right now you have at best one dimension that is confirmed to be a universe. The rest of the dimensions are not assumed to be the same size unless an arguement proving they are comes about, otherwise it is entirely baseless.
 
If Dream Worlds are larger than planet sized and are parallel to the Real World, Then Real World means Universe and not Earth. They are universes, case closed. Also, I did provide scans about Subcon and Subspace being parallel, and they too are dream worlds. "Less than 4-A", okay, now I know you're blatantly trolling.

Dat One Weeb said it best; uniqueness refers to themes, not sizes. Once Dino Ranger Black comes here, he's probably just going to close the thread again. Sub Con is literally Mario's dream, plus "Dream Bigger" is just a BS argument as Saikou said. So if anything, that has even more reason to be universe sized than Future Dream; we don't even know who's dream Future Dream was. And yes, in depth lore > lack of visuals. We have at least one universe sized dream world that isn't any more special than any other dream world, and at least two dream worlds that are parallel. And all of them are created under the same premise. Therefore, all dream worlds are parallel universes.
 
I was talking to Mephistus, not you Shake. Also, it was show to be parallel. I edited my comment to include a scan. Also, Mephistus has pulled a trolling stunt when he first joined the wiki.
 
Again, you have only replied and not given a citation that all the dreams are paralell outright. Being called a world isnt enough, calling the real world a world and extending that to the dream worlds which are merely called worlds isn't enough context and an association fallacy. Mirroring the real world doesn't work here if they clearly don't mirror them closely for many dreams, eg, Antasma's dream world just being a sphere with a hellish purple sky and lacking celestial bodies. Let's bring up world again, can mean many things in context and that "that world" in respect to the "real world" just means its another location or setting, not a reference to size or a direct comparison of equality. I am not trolling nor would I bother if the standards for the series are clearly not being consistent. You are poisoning the well here by claiming such a thing. The Undersea dream has zero visuals showing it is any larger than what we see, the dream doesn't have a sun/star in it for visuals. The themes do matter if they are described as confined to that size and zero context permits that that dream or all others are equal in size. You can't currently come up with a good arguement to explain your claims here, let alone cite them in the source material, so currently I don't see much new input from you here.

I too am waiting for Dino Ranger Black's input on this thread, I currently hold them in higher regard than most others on this site and they seem to have a clear head on them in regards to the standards of assuming dimensions to be a certain size if they have actual explaination that they are all the same size in a specific group. Assuming that the dreams are all parallel even in that respect would mean that they only resemble small locations, there is no such statement that you nor anyone else has given that all the dream worlds are parallel to the real world however, so I am definitely not changing my mind until I see proper evidence fpr such a claim. Considering that each dream in MP5 has different sceneries, yes, Future Dream should be considered a wholly unique dream in all regards and special like with the Pirate Dream embodying a certain subject.

Also, you should drop the trolling accusation. I have zero reason to want this series to be weaker and am very open about wanting this series to be as powerful as it can be represented on this site and others. I am not trolling and I am offended at this.
 
Oh jeez, that's embarrassing. I never saw his comment and it looked like you were talking to me since I said something similar. I'm just gonna remove that comment, my apologies
 
Also, theme does not mean "Confined size" it just means the imagery. Also, Oceans that are infinite in size do exist in fiction; pretty much what a lot of ancient myth's view of Earth was before people left. So just because Pirate Dream is an ocean doesn't mean it isn't a universe sized ocean. Also, the Sub Con and Subspace were indeed cited as being parallel. Read this line.

Subspace (alternatively Sub-space or Sub-Space), also known as the Hidden World, is an alternate dimension to Subco in Super Mario Bros. 2. In Subspace, the terrain is dark and mirrored on a single screen, which the player cannot travel beyond. Subspace can only be accessed by use of the Magical Potions (which create doors leading to the land) in Super Mario Bros. 2.
 
I'm not too big on Mario, but SuperBearNeo asked me to be his messenger. Neo disagrees with virtually everything said here and he'll explain why.

From SBN Himself

"The arguments here are nitpicky and quite frankly just bad on all levels. I'd like to address that in Mario, it's proven that worlds in themselves are also universes. World 5 was shown to have numerous galaxies contained within it and it's stated that when you traverse to another world, it's actually traveling through Space and Time. So playing Devil's Advocate would still make you wrong, wether they are called worlds or full on universes because both are treated as universal size constructs

Now, moving onto the meat of this thread. Do dreams vary in size. Short Anwser is no

We go by Occam's Razor and that is assume they are all universal in size...To people saying "HURR DURR BUT THIS DREAM IS SHOWN TO BE THIS SIZE"....No, your just wrong because nothing suggests that's the FULL EXTEND of that realm and it's like claiming our universe is just the size of stars because that's all we see. Bottom Line is, Dreams are universes and no matter how you put it, they are all universal in size unless stated otherwise

Second Point...Dreams in themselves are literally reflections of The Real World

Dreambert literally uses the term Real World and Dream intercheagibly and this implies they are comparable to one another. Dreambert is reliable source as he's the nadir of all dreams (which also implies that dreams has TONS of space as a nadir is the center of a circle, which means what we take place in are smaller spaces of the whole, also linking back to the argument of using what's seen in the realm to downgrade it's size being faulty) and he knows them fundamentally. When you also consider that dreams can also exist inside dreams, creating countless space, this would also eventually make them 3-A sized regardless because if you keep adding space, it only gets bigger and if you continue this process endlessely, then it'll be universe sized...So even with that, they still are universes (and at minimum have the potential to be)

All in all, people arguining against 2-B Mario are just misinformated about how Dreams function and should prolly brush up on the cosmology once more" ~ SuperBearNeo
 
I already brought up Subcon in the OP, I consider it a 4-A realm at best. Its alternate realm is another 4-A realm due to mimicing a 4-A realm.

@ Omni

SMG2 is not referring to dream size, just the "worlds" that they go through, which is arguably still the same universe, just that they go to different locations through portals. "The term world" literally has meant the sizes of countries in SMB3 and has zero foundation to stand on as it is a variable term in fiction already, let alone the series treating it to mean too many varying things. Dreambert referring to the real world as a world is just another location, another setting. There isn't a direct comparison that the individual dream worlds are the same size as the real world. The semantics there is that world can mean any different thing for relation to settings even then. There wasn't even a comparison of size made by Dreambert. Again, worlds/dream worlds no reason to be treated as equal unless proven. This is a positive claim that cannot be backed up solely by implications of some dreams having a starry sky or lolbottomlesspits.

You need actual proof to consider that each and every dream is infinite and or parallel to the universe sized dream and not base it on the meaning of the word world being consistent as that is an association fallacy and a fallacy of definition. Dreams existing inside dreams don't even matter because this fan theory of infinite intervals is based on headcanon, at most we only see additional dreams being made by dreamers within dreams in three intervals in very special cases.

Dreams don't have a singuar definition for size in the series that is given by context and I would ask you to cite anything that says all dreams are the same size; contrary to that sceneries in many dreams show they don't mimic the real world to a T and that they don't have the exact same sceneries.
 
Again, it's not a fan theory and it's not based on head canons. Dreams having dreams means that each Dream World has their own residents and even those residents can dream and give birth to even more dream worlds. And no, Subcon and Subspace are not only parallel to each other, but are parallel to Future Dream which is parallel to the Dream Worlds in Dream Team which are parallel to all Dream Worlds. 4-A at worst actually; starry sky is only a baseline. But Context makes them universes as well given their parallel.
 
Sub-space is only considered to be an alternate dimension to Subcon due to the manual, which only has 4-A visuals. This is not proof of all dreams being alternates of each other or exact parallels or equal to each other. This is a comparison of only two dreams that are specifically spelled out to be alternate. If there was such a scan for all dreams being parallel then this topic would've never been brought up. This is like saying two alternate Earths are the same and since they are both planets, and Jupiter is a planet, then Earth must be the same size as Jupiter. This is again, resorting to textbook association fallacy. There is no such scan supporting that Subcon or Subspace are parallel to Future Dream regardless, and that would only show that those three are the same size, not all dreams / dimensions made by dreams in the series. Again, there is zero reason to assume that they are all parallel without any context supporting it. Dreambert doesn't refer to parallelism, only location at best given the variable meaning of "world" and not a proper comparison of size.

Dreams having dreamers inside it dreaming only allow for more dreams, like I said this has no bearing on exact size of all individual dreams. This isn't a scan stating "countless" neither, there is no hint that the number of dreamers inside dream worlds are infinite either, nor would having any amount of dreamers change that the size of said dreams are unknown without proof all dreams are equal in size or somesuch. The dream worlds that we see in a lot of cases aren't visually very impressive, so I again say that this arguement that they all must be universe-sized is an utter baseless assumption for any given dimension just for being called a "world" or "dream".
 
Again, stop comparing planets to alternate dimensions; it's false equivalency. Also, plenty of people are getting sick and tired of your narrow-minded and condescending arguments. Visuals are a baseline, not a hammered down restriction. Yes, all dream worlds are parallel unless stated otherwise. The world "Alternate" implies they're parallel. It's knit picky to assume two random dream worlds are parallel and not the rest of them. They're all cut from the same cloth and factored as the same context. And yes, there are plenty of statements if you actually looked up the details.
 
From Neo

"Terrible argument...Your totally missed the point, which is that Worlds (Literally the most basic term in Mario for a location) are treated as universes and seperated space-time continuums. Dreams are called worlds, so even ignoring Future Dream, they'd still be universal in size as they are worlds, which I proven are universes. Secondly, umm what, no, you're again using the argument of "HURR DURR ALL WE SEE ARE COUNTRIES, SO IT MUST BE A COUNTRY", which is a a faulty argument (Refer to my Since all we see is stars, the universe must be starts). You have yet to give evidence that they shouldn't be treated as equal, then you consider that there are dreams that are LITERALLY just reflections of our universe (Future Dream), then this whole point becauses wrong because it just reaffirms the already agreed upon point that dreams are universes

Again, you fail to present a instance where it's STATED that dreams are different in size. This is along the same logic of having to prove that all Zones are universes in Archie Sonic, when no, just Occam's Razor alone should cover that logically. "Headcanon", LMFAO, nobody said it was infinite intervals, all that was said is that if dreams are capable of contining one another and doing so for countless time (Mind you, it's accepted that Dreams are at least 4-A size), then logically they would have the potential to be 3-A eventually, mass only gets bigger, it doesn't suddenly subtract itself

Again...Occam's Razor exists and you seem to be ignoring that very basic concept that would turn this entire argument on it's head. I literally don't need to cite this when it's basic common sense (aka Occam's Razor). No countrary evidence has suggested that Dreams vary in size, all that's been presented is "HURR DURRR ALL I SEE IS THIS", which is debunked when you consider Dreambert is The Nadir of dreams, which suggests what's seen is a smaller part of the whole construct, making such arguments like that faulty" ~ SuperBearNeo
 
@Dark

Are these statments and stuff on the profiles?. If the profiles don't have a good enough description or link a blog explaining the dream stuff in depth so people can understand it, you get threads like these.
 
@DDM

Considering that you are comparing dimensions to be all the same size with merely being associated by name, I will use whatever analogy I want if it is specific and relative here.

No, those two random dream worlds are what is specifically are stated to be the same size.

You have consequently not provided any evidence that every single dream is parallel and thus haven't fullfulled the burden of proof. I can compare two twin baby turtles to be the same size, should these two babies be the same size as an adult turtle of the same species and all the turtles in the world? Same analogy here.

This is akin to stating that because a verse has alternate dimensions in it, every single dimension in the verse has the same size purely by name, ignoring that "dream worlds" themselves aren't even wholly classified by the term world and called dream worlds. Smaller 4-A sized dimensions similarly called "worlds" and "dimensions" exist in this verse because of lack of context showing that they are outright universes. Burden of proof is not fulfilled to think all dream dimensions are all the same size.

Considering you have to resort to calling my arguements narrow minded and condescending, its clear that the only proof that would in actuality prove that all these dimensions are universes is that if there was a specific statement showing this. Zero scans are presented supporting your baseless claim, so far.

@Omni

Your arguement basically boils down to association fallacy and the meaning of "world", which has been referenced as everything from settings as small as a hundred meters wide to a country on their planet to a 4-A sized setting. I would drop the attitude. It's evident that dimensions don't get treated by being the same size by name.
 
@SuperBearNeo

"HURR DURR ALL WE SEE ARE COUNTRIES, SO IT MUST BE A COUNTRY"

"HURR DURRR ALL I SEE IS THIS"

These parts of your comments are not needed and make you sound like an ass. Not saying your arguments are wrong, just that this is not needed.

Anyway, I think this should be closed, it is going nowhere and the OP has been rejected. Keeping this open will waste time.
 
It's evidently clear that the burden of proof for the positive claim that all the dreams are the same size is going nowhere and would prefer to hear from Dino and his input with actual scans stating so. Closing this would not do anything if, again, the scans I have asked of are not being presented and instead I am given a text wall of faulty logic to respond to. Literally just post the source material stating all the dreams are equal, this is a positive claim without evidence made by the people I am arguing against. Otherwise, I respectfully ask you to leave this open so that Dino can respond to this thread because the input given is unsatisfactory and fallacious.

If DDM has such a blog he wants to make proving all the dream worlds are the same size with actual scans that have yet to be brought up here to quote from, then this is clearly why this thread was made to point out the huge error in assuming all the dreams are the same size without any basis. I am currently 100% unconvinced that the Dream Depot is 2-B sized and would summarily reject the arguement that it is with the justifications shown here, unless there are further scans to be brought up. There needs to be a scan that all dream worlds are the same size, otherwise these dimensions fall into being literally only as big as we visually can see them, in which many of them are very very small indeed.
 
I agree with @Mephistus and Maverick.

Throughout this entire thread. There has been no proof from the 2-B Mario side that supports any of the claims they are making. The Future Dream is simply unique, plus I'm not quite sure why we are using other games as evidence like Mario Galaxy for example. The "worlds" there are merely other places within the same universe, they aren't alternate worlds by any means.

You guys need to prove that these Dreams are parallel or are alternate realities. If you can't do that? Then Dream Depot should get downgraded.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Having separate time-space continuums means that these are separate universes.
Click to expand...
No it doesn't. Not without further context. Again, what you posted alone just now is not proof of universe in size. It didn't say space time continuums, it just said space time.
 
Yes it does, if each world is separated by time and space, then this means they each have their own time-space continuum due to the fact that each world has their own time and space.
 
@datoneweeb

https://www.mariowiki.com/World_1_(Super_Mario_Galaxy_2)

https://www.mariowiki.com/File:SMG2_Map_W1.png

The "worlds" in the setting of SMG2 are taking place within the same universe and vary in size heavily. World 1 takes place technically on the outer orbit of an Earth-size planet, another world's setting is a galactic cluster, yet another is a single galaxy. The portals through space and time is literally just meaning they act as portals. They aren't seperate time-spaces. They are just going through portals to different locations within Mario's universe. Again showing that merely using world only varies extremely heavily.
 
From Neo..

"My guy, do you understand what an Association fallacy actually is...I can assure you that what I argued doesn't even fall under the same path. For something to be an association fallacy, there has to be a comparsion, which I never made. Unless you are mentioning that one off comment about zones, in which case was brought up to show how bad the argument is. My argument never had basis in "This is X, That is related to X, so that must mean all is X" and as such, not an assiocation fallacy

Secondly, Ad Nasuem at this point. You haven't even refuted my nadir argument or how Occam's Razor isn't a basic applicability here. The fact that Dreambert is a nadir of dreams refutes the argument of what we see is the total whole of the that dream realm (alongside basic logic that is Occam's Razor) and added on by the fact there are dreams that literally are just our own universe and that dreams are reflection of the real universe, then no good sir, YOU are wrong" ~ SuperBearNeo
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Yes it does, if each world is separated by time and space, then this means they each have their own time-space continuum due to the fact that each world has their own time and space.
Click to expand...
That's not what it's saying. The portal is used to make travelling across space and time a lot more easier. It literally warps Mario there, that doesn't mean that those worlds somehow have their own space/time continuums.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Yes it does, if each world is separated by time and space, then this means they each have their own time-space continuum due to the fact that each world has their own time and space.
Click to expand...
That alone doesn't make them universe in size tho. Which is what I'm talking about. Just because a world is seperated from another and have different Time and Space does not make the other universe level in size without futher proof. You gave your proof in you earlier comments but the one you posted about the different space time is not enough proof of universe size on it's ow. Anyway, I'm done here. I can see where 2-B is coming from with everything shown and I agree with 2-B so I won't take up more of this thread.
 
@Omni The claim that the size of "worlds" is the same in relation to the claimed "world" term is static in the way world is used in respect to the real world is a fallacy of definition and association when its in respect to talking about settings and location which aren't solid claims of evidence here using the nonstatic term "world",

The real world being a "world" doesn't inherently mean all worlds that are further classified as "dream worlds" are even all universes by association or definition. Dreams being called dreams and associating their size purely by name doesn't prove they are all the same size. These are fallacious assumptions and not a facts.

There is no occam's razor to be used here if dreams themselves vary wildly in their setting and description of what they wholly embody being objectively smaller things (Undersea dream) than a single universe and have zero claim for all the dreams to be exactly the same size. Antasma's dream doesn't mirror their real world in the slightest and assuming it to be the same size and parallel is a claim that is repeatedly been asked for scans uniting all dreams to be the same size.
 
The Super Mario Galaxy bit isn't relevant to the Dream Depot anyway, but I'll settle it with this. It is quite literally a wormhole that takes you to other places within Mario's universe. When it states that you're traveling through "space and time" it's referring mainly to Mario's world specifically where you travel from point A to B. There is no separate space/time continuums there.

Now? How's the proof for the parallelism of the Dream Worlds coming along? So far, we have no evidence that the Dream Worlds are ALL universe level in size.
 
If this thread is going to be toxic then I will have to close it. Anyway, Future Dream is "Not Unique" and "Not the only dream that's Universe sized". They are parallel, Subcon and Subspace are parallel and there was proof of that above. Visuals are a baseline, not a restriction. 4-A is only an at worst size. Subcon is parallel to future Dream, "They're both dreams worlds born from the residents of the Universe or Mushroom Kingdom if you prefer." As is Subspace. If at least two of them are parallel, then they all have to be parallel. Future Dream is no more special then any of the other MP5 Dreams. Each Dream World is also parallel to "The Real World". And since they're obviously not planet sized, they're also universes.

Mario has myriads of times more evidence of 2-B that a certain other verse. Scans were already posted. Seriously, it's shit like this is why Dino Ranger Black doesn't even want to debate this anymore. It has always been toxic and it always will be toxic. The only way to resolve this is to permanently drop it. I am not toxic, socially anxious, but not toxic.
 
Once again, you only provided evidence for subcon and subspace being parallel.

The fallacy here is assuming every single dream are all the same size because of two dreams being stated to be the same size.

You need proof that all of the dream worlds are the same size not just two and not outside of them sharing the same naming such as "dream" or "dream world" .

The scans clearly are only showing subcon and subspace are parallel. That they are parallel to future dream and that all dreams are parallel unto each other and future dream has yet to be posted and it is outright baseless to continue to make that claim. Again, the dreams in MP5 themselves wholly embody being objectively smaller things (Undersea dream) than a single universe.

You are overtly making this thread toxic by saying: "Seriously, it's shit like this is why Dino Ranger Black doesn't even want to debate this anymore." and poisoning the thread by accussing me of being a troll. I personally wish that I privately brought this up to Dino Ranger Black, which I plan to do if this thread closes prematurely, if I was going to be having to deal with your toxicity. This is not at all how a debate functions if you need to shut it down without backing up your claims with actual scans and source material. Other verses here are irrelevant to your opinion here if this verses evidence in this thread is all that matters.
 
Hello, I'd like to introduce myself into the convo

The claim that the size of "worlds" is the same in relation to the claimed "world" term is static in the way world is used in respect to the real world is a fallacy of definition and association when its in respect to talking about settings and location which aren't solid claims of evidence here using the nonstatic term "world"

That's literally not how Assiocation Fallacies work. For something to be an assiocation fallacy, the person making the argument has to make an argument along the lines of


"Though A is a member of both group B and group C, not all members of B are members of group C.

P1: A is a member of group B.
P2: A is a member of group C.
C: Therefore, group B is C.
The basic structure

P1: RationalWiki is a wiki.
P2: RationalWiki likes goats.
C: Wikis like goats."
This is the most basic structure of an Assiocation Fallacy and pulled this straight from RationalWiki...Literally nowhere in the argument does Neo actually argue akin to this and all attempts to label this "Assiocation Fallacy" only shows that you actually lack understanding in how the fallacy functions. So again, this isn't an assiocation fallacy and your throwing random fallacies out without knowing their structure

The real world being a "world" doesn't inherently mean all worlds that are further classified as "dream worlds" are even all universes by association or definition. Dreams being called dreams and associating their size purely by name doesn't prove they are all the same size. These are fallacious assumptions and not a facts.

What suggests this...You LITERALLY STILL haven't given anything that conflicts with this way of logic. All you've argued is that it's illogical but you never elaborated on WHY it would be. Also what, no offense, but that has to be one of the worst arguments I've heard. That's like saying "Oh just because it's called a universe, doesn't mean it's actually universal size", like what sense does that make. If it's a dream and dreams are consistently shown/stated to be universes, then why would that particular one change. Yes, I get that this can change in fiction, but that's only when STATED otherwise which you haven't presented once at all

There is no occam's razor to be used here if dreams themselves vary wildly in their setting and description of what they wholly embody being objectively smaller things (Undersea dream) than a single universe and have zero claim for all the dreams to be exactly the same size. Antasma's dream doesn't mirror their real world in the slightest and assuming it to be the same size and parallel is a claim that is repeatadly been asked for scans uniting all dreams to be the same size.

You again, keep saying that but no explaination attached to it. You've ignored Neo's nadir argument at least 3 times now and it's becoming full on Ad Nasuem dude. Additionally, the act of traveling between dreams is explictly stated to be traveling dimensions, clearly contextually referring to universes


https://imgur.com/zaNYXKc


Did you really call Antasma's place a "Dream" when he creates "Nightmares". This shows you likely haven't even played Dream Team. That aside, you once again fail to grasp the basic premise that is dreams are reflection of reality and that there are entire universes that are just simply the universe itself. So like, it's basica logic, dreams are universes although Zeekeeper literally calling them dimensions is the huge nail in the coffin for your points (Alongside Neo's Nadir argument)

he Super Mario Galaxy bit isn't relevant to the Dream Depot anyway, but I'll settle it with this. It is quite literally a wormhole that takes you to other places within Mario's universe. When it states that you're traveling through "space and time" it's referring mainly to Mario's world specifically where you travel from point A to B. There is no separate space/time continuums there.

Now? How's the proof for the parallelism of the Dream Worlds coming along? So far, we have no evidence that the Dream Worlds are ALL universe level in size.

Why wouldn't it be relevant to The Dream Depot when Dreams are also stated to be worlds. The galaxy scan shows that Worlds are also in themselves different universes as to reach another world, they need to cross space and time. You're objectively wrong on the argument that "It takes you to another part of Mario's universe"....Nope, not only is that never stated but when you actually play the same, you realize that it's what occurs when you traverse to another world in game
 
DDM, if you don't want the thread to be toxic how about you not throw shade at people such as when you opened up by calling Mephistus a troll at the beginning and mentioning things irrelevant to the thread? Yes, Subspace is an alternate dimension to Subcon so they are the same size, but when there's evidence that the dream worlds vary in size, we don't assume they're the same size. The only one that has evidence of being a universe is Future Dream. Yes, visuals are a baseline and don't imply the full extent but when they lack evidence of being a universe, we don't assume they're a universe.

This thread is about Mario, not that "certain other verse." Lets stay on topic, shall we? The scans you posted were either irrelevant to the Dream Depot or lacked proof of the dream worlds all being the same size.
 
but when there's evidence that the dream worlds vary in size, we don't assume they're the same size.

>Neo's Nadir Argument: Am I A Joke To You

Yes, I used that unironically

Yes, visuals are a baseline and don't imply the full extent but when they lack evidence of being a universe, we don't assume they're a universe

>Are Reflections of The Real World

>Some dreams are full on just the universe, reaffirming the first premise

>Dreambert being a Nadir implies that what's present in the dream is only the centerpoint and not the entire dream structure...Debunking any argument that relies on "but all we see is.."
 
@ King

All i'm reading is a lack of comprehension about what the comparison drawn here is by others that I am arguing against.

DDM: "Dream Worlds are Dream Worlds"

Because if you were following the similar discussion, that is along the same line of logic as saying the dream worlds, which have admittdely been called dimensions, are all universes because they are called dimensions and belong to that group. Dimensions in Mario's universe aren't subject to being default universes unless neccessary comparisons have been made, which again, i stress, there have been none here that actually lump all dream worlds or dreams together. The individual dreams are subject to being wholly described as smaller than a universe and Pirate Dream is an especially bad case of limited described size, let alone Undersea dream.

The obvious confliction is that they aren't neccessarilly all the same size dimensions unless proven. Naming is literally irrelevant here. Drawing from SMG2 isn't even a good case to affirm world means universe, I have drawn from SMB, SMB3 and even SMG2 is actually just settings that are planetary sized called "worlds" Again, scans about dream size for ALL DREAM WORLDS being parallel or the same size would be relevant here, not the "worlds" visited by Mario in outer space during SMG2, which aren't even whole univeses. The basic logic here is that they aren't outright relfections of the real world, and are on a much smaller scale if not wholly different looking and described as different settings.Dreambert's comparison falls flat either way since the definition of world isn't assumed to be static and just refers to a different location. Antasma's dream world is called a dream world. Literally drop the attitude.
 
I had it crossed out more so as a joke, but he took it literally. Still, he has a history of trolling though not quite on the same level as some people, and has later literally did troll.

Anyway, to the main topic, there was also evidence of the Dream Worlds being parallel to "The Real World", which is clearly the Universe. They're clearly not planet sized given the constellations and starry skies. But said evidence appears to be completely ignored. Also, we all know Dino is going to be saying the same thing.
 
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