Dragon Age Tier 2 Upgrade

[Nighting4l33yes]

Tysmmm

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

VSBW Alert system being shit again. No problem

Is 1 vote from admin enough for T2 revisions?

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

Is 1 vote from admin enough for T2 revisions?

Nah we need to 2 at least

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

Reading further input from both sides, I still think the OP makes more sense.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Reading further input from both sides, I still think the OP makes more sense.

you liking every post always catches me off guard cuz i open this app to 30 notifs and i am like oh **** what happened they done shot me i am done for

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

but thank you for your input

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

Nah we need to 2 at least

this should be enough then right? it's not a controversial verse or anything to need 3 votes.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

To further expand on this for those who do not or have not played Dragon Age, the fade is not mirrored, it is essentially generated. It is infinite because every time one enters it, it effectively changes geography with the exception of the black city that is visible anywhere in the fade. The fade runs on dream logic, ironic because everyone's dreams exist and connect there, and their dreams can shape their pocket of the fade, not the actual "waking world". You have the harrowing in the very first game to see this where a mage puts you to sleep to enter the fade to run a test. It's not "infinite" in that it is a wide sized universe. One can read the codexes that ruminate on this even in the OP.

Because of this, there are far too many places that effectively exist only in the fade that do not exist anywhere in the waking world. It has always been this way. This is why the OP is trying, and failing, to pretend that the waking world is "infinite" because the fade effectively is. He is making an argument from an absence of evidence.

It's also why the OP wants you to believe the veil is a construct, a measurable shell, when it isn't and those same codex entries will tell you it isn't in a traditional sense. It isn't a barrier, it isn't a physical thing.

Ultimately, all of this is a reason no one ever says the waking world is infinite. When the characters learn the truth of the veil they say around the world not "infinite" "multiversal" "all of space time" nonsense.

In that sense, it is disingenuous to believe anyone really "Scales" to the entirety of the fade, or to pretend the veil is "infinite" and an extent of Solas' power when we know it isn't. So even if the Fade itself can be "Tier 2" no one else is "Tier 2".

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

To further expand on this for those who do not or have not played Dragon Age, the fade is not mirrored, it is essentially generated. It is infinite because every time one enters it, it effectively changes geography with the exception of the black city that is visible anywhere in the fade. The fade runs on dream logic, ironic because everyone's dreams exist and connect there, and their dreams can shape their pocket of the fade, not the actual "waking world". You have the harrowing in the very first game to see this where a mage puts you to sleep to enter the fade to run a test. It's not "infinite" in that it is a wide sized universe. One can read the codexes that ruminate on this even in the OP.

Because of this, there are far too many places that effectively exist only in the fade that do not exist anywhere in the waking world. It has always been this way. This is why the OP is trying, and failing, to pretend that the waking world is "infinite" because the fade effectively is. He is making an argument from an absence of evidence.

It's also why the OP wants you to believe the veil is a construct, a measurable shell, when it isn't and those same codex entries will tell you it isn't in a traditional sense. It isn't a barrier, it isn't a physical thing.

Ultimately, all of this is a reason no one ever says the waking world is infinite. When the characters learn the truth of the veil they say around the world not "infinite" "multiversal" "all of space time" nonsense.

In that sense, it is disingenuous to believe anyone really "Scales" to the entirety of the fade, or to pretend the veil is "infinite" and an extent of Solas' power when we know it isn't. So even if the Fade itself can be "Tier 2" no one else is "Tier 2".

I am not really fond of this accusatory tone that implies I am trying to deceive people. If you feel that way, feel free to report me.

No source is saying that the fade is generated. Sure, it is changed by things such as vibrations which I mentioned. But you cannot claim that it is entirely made up of people's minds. This has no source or any basis. Especially since it already existed as a whole before it was seperated by Solas.

I said the waking world is infinite because it's a universe. A seperate dimension from the fade. Timelines and universes are assumed to be infinite.

Also, not calling it a "barrier" when even the wikipedia you are linking calls it a "METAPHYSICAL BARRIER" in its very opening sentence, is like idk whatever man.

The veil is infinite because it was wraps around the entirety of the dimension and furthermore it has become an entirely seperate dimension with its own time and spatial structure along with it affecting all other dimensions connecting or being empowered by it. Both physically (you can't enter the Fade from any of those places anymore even though it was connected to the waking world initially) and metaphysically (magic no longer exists anywhere except for the fade and you need to open small tears in it to channel it).

Creating an infinite construct while seperating a world into two infinite constructs and sub-dimensions, is definitely a Tier 2 feat.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

I am not really fond of this accusatory tone that implies I am trying to deceive people. If you feel that way, feel free to report me.

No source is saying that the fade is generated. Sure, it is changed by things such as vibrations which I mentioned. But you cannot claim that it is entirely made up of people's minds. This has no source or any basis. Especially since it already existed as a whole before it was seperated by Solas.

I said the waking world is infinite because it's a universe. A seperate dimension from the fade. Timelines and universes are assumed to be infinite.

Also, not calling it a "barrier" when even the wikipedia you are linking calls it a "METAPHYSICAL BARRIER" in its very opening sentence, is like idk whatever man.

The veil is infinite because it was wraps around the entirety of the dimension and furthermore it has become an entirely seperate dimension with its own time and spatial structure along with it affecting all other dimensions connecting or being empowered by it. Both physically (you can't enter the Fade from any of those places anymore even though it was connected to the waking world initially) and metaphysically (magic no longer exists anywhere except for the fade and you need to open small tears in it to channel it).

Creating an infinite construct while seperating a world into two infinite constructs and sub-dimensions, is definitely a Tier 2 feat.

It is deceitful to say something is an infinite universe when no point in the text uses those words. The waking world is not that.

Like you're doing here. You are already changing my post even though what I typed is clear.

To further expand on this for those who do not or have not played Dragon Age, the fade is not mirrored, it is essentially generated. It is infinite because every time one enters it, it effectively changes geography with the exception of the black city that is visible anywhere in the fade. The fade runs on dream logic, ironic because everyone's dreams exist and connect there, and their dreams can shape their pocket of the fade, not the actual "waking world". You have the harrowing in the very first game to see this where a mage puts you to sleep to enter the fade to run a test.

That doesn't say the fade was created from the minds of people, it says the minds of people can and does shape the fade which is a fact.

No, the fade is essentially generated. It is divided up into realms by different spirits, demons, minds, etc. and is constantly in flux and changing from ultra weak spirits like wisps to more powerful beings, all in separate realms. It's always been this way.

(Dragon Age: World of Thedas, Vol. 1, p. 136)

(Dragon Age: World of Thedas, Vol. 1, pp. 132 & 141)

This is why I think it's better to provide the primary sources than constantly link back to Wiki's edited by fans who put their own interpretations up. The Veil is more of a magic spell gone awry that is effectively an idea on the fade, than a "wrap".

Again, calling it a "construct" is either a complete misinterpretation of what it actually is, or being disingenuous to force Solas, Corypheus, and others to be 2C because most in this forum haven't played Dragon Age to know better when reading your interpretation.

(magic no longer exists anywhere except for the fade and you need to open small tears in it to channel it).

You also need to stop typing this. It was already pointed out to you that the blight, blood, and lyrium are all non-fade sources of magic that very much does exist without channeling the fade. Again, someone whose never played these games will be inclined to believe you because you keep repeating these falsehoods.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

The Fade itself changes save for the Black City, but is infinite that is baseline 2-C

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

It is deceitful to say something is an infinite universe when no point in the text uses those words. The waking world is not that.

It is not. It doesn't need to be an infinite universe anyway. The Fade and other spacetime continua that are connected to it being affected is enough.

That doesn't say the fade was created from the minds of people, it says the minds of people can and does shape the fade which is a fact.

No, the fade is essentially generated. It is divided up into realms by different spirits, demons, minds, etc. and is constantly in flux and changing from ultra weak spirits like wisps to more powerful beings, all in separate realms. It's always been this way.

Yes...? I already mentioned this in the op? The point is that the fade isn't JUST that. It's influenced by minds but it has its own structure as well.

This is why I think it's better to provide the primary sources than constantly link back to Wiki's edited by fans who put their own interpretations up. The Veil is more of a magic spell gone awry that is effectively an idea on the fade, than a "wrap".

I didn't link a SINGLE wiki link. You did.

You also need to stop typing this. It was already pointed out to you that the blight, blood, and lyrium are all non-fade sources of magic that very much does exist without channeling the fade. Again, someone whose never played these games will be inclined to believe you because you keep repeating these falsehoods.

Lyrium bridges the gap between the fade and the waking world. It has a DIRECT connection to the fade. Blood isn't inherently magical and we don't know why it can be used as a tool. The blight was brought to the world by the magisters.

Idk what these prove anyway.

Again, calling it a "construct" is either a complete misinterpretation of what it actually is, or being disingenuous to force Solas, Corypheus, and others to be 2C because most in this forum haven't played Dragon Age to know better when reading your interpretation.

It is a construct. It blocks the ability to cross to either world directly.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

It is not. It doesn't need to be an infinite universe anyway. The Fade and other spacetime continua that are connected to it being affected is enough.

Yes...? I already mentioned this in the op? The point is that the fade isn't JUST that. It's influenced by minds but it has its own structure as well.

I didn't link a SINGLE wiki link. You did.

Lyrium bridges the gap between the fade and the waking world. It has a DIRECT connection to the fade. Blood isn't inherently magical and we don't know why it can be used as a tool. The blight was brought to the world by the magisters.

Idk what these prove anyway.

It is a construct. It blocks the ability to cross to either world directly.

The fade doesn't have a structure, it is structureless. It has weird geography. It is not a building or an egg. The Veil is not a construct, literally, just read the passages there. It's not really a tangible thing.

No, lyrium is kind of its own thing to the point it can give "magic" to people who can't use magic. It's why Templars are bog standard people who get "powers" by just eating lyrium. It isn't born of the fade, it's the blood of the titans and they are very much separate from the spirits that started stealing their blood.

Blood in Dragon Age has its own inherent power and is magical. Dragon's Blood in itself also has power. Blood has so much power that the ritual El'Garnan uses is just pure blood as the power source. It is inherently magical to the point that you can just boost your power level in Dragon Age using blood as seen by it being a choice in DAO multiple times, it being used for magic spells, runes, etc. Like almost all the most powerful sorcerers are blood mages in the setting, even Solas.

Also, you do know why it can be used, it's because blood has mana in it.

“You’re a blood mage.” Unconsciously, Isseya let her voice drop as she said it.”

“How did you know?” he asked so quietly that she barely caught the words across the wind.

“I’m a mage too, Calien. I can see when you’re casting spells without touching the Fade.” He’d only done it a few times in her presence, always in desperate straits and only when he’d already been wounded by darkspawn, so the bloodletting needed to fuel his magic would not be obvious … but she’d noticed.”

Excerpt From: “Chapter 10” Liane Merciel. “Dragon Age: Last Flight.” Tor, 2014.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces/Blood_Magic:_Pre-Veilguard

(Dragon Age: the World of Thedas, vol. 2, Dark Horse Books, 2015, pp. 145.)

You have wiki links in your OP and other posts. Come on now.

Those are called "vibrations" and they are reflected in the Fade.

Only few individuals are born with the ability to manipulate magic from beyond the Veil and as a result are susceptible to possession by the spirits inhabiting it.

Additionally, the entire waking world, which we have no reason to believe it doesn't cover the entire universe

Mythal was the leader of the Evanuris and protected Fen'Harel from the other elven gods and managed to easily defeat one of them in a fight.

Two, you are being completely disingenuous. All three locations you just referred to are within the continent of Thedas. They are not on some far away continent. Anyone reading this can literally just google that and see it.
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Donarks https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Hunterhorn_Mountains https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Sunless_Lands

Literally here is one of my points of contention, you using absence of evidence as evidence of absence. "We barely know anything about the waking world beyond the continent it is set on so we have no reason to believe the veil covers the universe that is never mentioned at all". Seriously, there's no logic here.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

The fade doesn't have a structure, it is structureless. It has weird geography. It is not a building or an egg. The Veil is not a construct, literally, just read the passages there. It's not really a tangible thing.

It does have structure. Some demons have their own domains within them like the Nightmare.

No, lyrium is kind of its own thing to the point it can give "magic" to people who can't use magic. It's why Templars are bog standard people who get "powers" by just eating lyrium. It isn't born of the fade, it's the blood of the titans and they are very much separate from the spirits that started stealing their blood.

Blood in Dragon Age has its own inherent power and is magical. Dragon's Blood in itself also has power. Blood has so much power that the ritual El'Garnan uses is just pure blood as the power source. It is inherently magical to the point that you can just boost your power level in Dragon Age using blood as seen by it being a choice in DAO multiple times, it being used for magic spells, runes, etc. Like almost all the most powerful sorcerers are blood mages in the setting, even Solas.

Also, you do know why it can be used, it's because blood has mana in it.

Lyrium can't really give magic. It is just magical in nature and can leave its mark on physical things. So what?

As for the blood, I am gonna be honest with you. That's just inconsistencies. If they weren't really tapping to the fade, they wouldn't be more susceptible to demonic possession. Sure, it might have some magical properties, but it's not inherently magical on its own. It's a conduit.

Still, what is the point of this?

You have wiki links in your OP and other posts. Come on now.

For... codexes? That are in-game...? How do you want me to link them lol? I am not gonna download 4 games to look through every codex, screenshot it and post it here don't be absurd. And I've not linked any community member-written texts. Except one I guess.

Literally here is one of my points of contention, you using absence of evidence as evidence of absence. "We barely know anything about the waking world beyond the continent it is set on so we have no reason to believe the veil covers the universe that is never mentioned at all". Seriously, there's no logic here.

I am using... logic? Even if you disregard the effects of the veil in the physical universe, you still get T2 from the veil in the fade which is an infinite dimension with its own spacetime continuum.

 

[WhydoIneedtosignupintwoplaces]

It does have structure. Some demons have their own domains within them like the Nightmare.

Lyrium can't really give magic. It is just magical in nature and can leave its mark on physical things. So what?

As for the blood, I am gonna be honest with you. That's just inconsistencies. If they weren't really tapping to the fade, they wouldn't be more susceptible to demonic possession. Sure, it might have some magical properties, but it's not inherently magical on its own. It's a conduit.

Still, what is the point of this?

For... codexes? That are in-game...? How do you want me to link them lol? I am not gonna download 4 games to look through every codex, screenshot it and post it here don't be absurd. And I've not linked any community member-written texts. Except one I guess.

I am using... logic? Even if you disregard the effects of the veil in the physical universe, you still get T2 from the veil in the fade which is an infinite dimension with its own spacetime continuum.

The fade doesn't have structure, contrary to what you think, you can't just ignore the lore books, and scenes posted. The entire point is that the fade is wishy washy by its nature.

No lyrium is magic and can give you magic.

The two lorebooks and the novels, written by the lead writers of the franchise, aren't inconsistent. Look, I think you just don't know quite as much about DA as you thought, but blood has always been magical. It's the reason why blood magic has always been a deal in every single dragon age game. Even Solas uses blood magic to fool your PC in veilguard.

The veil isn't T2 even if the Fade is. Solas himself can't be T2 by doing a prepped spell that was a mistake by his admission that required more power and magic than he had.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

The fade doesn't have structure, contrary to what you think, you can't just ignore the lore books, and scenes posted. The entire point is that the fade is wishy washy by its nature.

No lyrium is magic and can give you magic.

The two lorebooks and the novels, written by the lead writers of the franchise, aren't inconsistent. Look, I think you just don't know quite as much about DA as you thought, but blood has always been magical. It's the reason why blood magic has always been a deal in every single dragon age game. Even Solas uses blood magic to fool your PC in veilguard.

The veil isn't T2 even if the Fade is. Solas himself can't be T2 by doing a prepped spell that was a mistake by his admission that required more power and magic than he had.

I am gonna ask you one last time to cut it out with being condescending before I stop responding to you altogether.

Secondly, everything else you mention, is irrelevant. Because they are inconsistent when it comes to this aspect of blood magic. And I explained why.

Thirdly, the Fade is a T2 dimension and you haven't shown anything to prove otherwise. It being affected by energies and fluxing is completely irrelevant. I even posted that in the OP.

Fourth, elgar'nan managed to affect the entirety of the fade just as Solas did in the ritual so this power is consistent and found clearly within the elven gods.

Lastly, very few of your points have actual arguments that aren't just "Nuh uh".

 

[HakutoRei000]

this should be enough then right? it's not a controversial verse or anything to need 3 votes.

For content revisions that affect Tier 2 or higher, the participation of at least one Administrator in the review and approval process is required.

Just saying because it involves Tier 2, 3 staff (including admin) vote is needed (I know cuz my verse does the same).

The concluding evaluations must be handled by Thread Moderators, Administrators, and Bureaucrats.

And Raiki is a translation helper so the vote isn't counted as the concluding vote.

 

[Nighting4l33yes]

And Raiki is a translation helper so the vote isn't counted as the concluding vote.

Wait true I forgot </3 ur right ty

 

[HakutoRei000]

Wait true I forgot </3 ur right ty