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Dragon Ball shared worldview
- Thread starter TiltedFN
- Start date
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- cosmology dragon ball
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Ghostimuscrime
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I think the writers when involved with adaptations or secondary canon they would logically engage with the production and guide them in a way that explains the story they originally intended instead of diverging (unless it’s one of those things like “what if goku was a woman” type entries that are explicitly meant to be different instead of an expansion of the original) so for stuff that Toriyama did have involvement with / supervised (ToeiZ, Daima) I think I can agree with the thread and think they should be able to generally share scaling with canon
Also kinda helps that the elements originating from supposedly non-canon material end up getting reintroduced back into canon the way we saw Broly comeback in DBS or SSJ4 in Daima, it shows that the writers had accepted these elements in their hearts when it comes to their perception of Dragon Ball Media
Also kinda helps that the elements originating from supposedly non-canon material end up getting reintroduced back into canon the way we saw Broly comeback in DBS or SSJ4 in Daima, it shows that the writers had accepted these elements in their hearts when it comes to their perception of Dragon Ball Media
Nullflowerblush
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It would've been a more efficient and productive use of space and time to condense all of your evidence into an Explanation Page to look back on and revise overtime.
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- Thread starter
- #86
Well lucky for us, we have a giant crt with all the information we need to put everything we need in a page!
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Nullflowerblush
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You probably should've done that first.
MeiouHades
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Alright that's too much; we can meme later.Bro's acting like we can't do that any time. We aren't like you null, we don't just make a billion blogs just to not ever apply them.
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Oh, this is really good. From what I’ve read overall, I think some elements in the Dragon Ball universes should indeed be shareable. Because whether it’s DBZ, DBS, DB (original),DB Toei, Daima, or GT, they’re still built on the same fundamental cosmological structure.
If there are parts that clearly contradict each other, then we can just treat those as separate cases. But the parts that are similar and have enough supporting evidence, like what the OP pointed out, can be shared across. I agree
If there are parts that clearly contradict each other, then we can just treat those as separate cases. But the parts that are similar and have enough supporting evidence, like what the OP pointed out, can be shared across. I agree
Ruphas_Mafahl123
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Tho. I will say this.
While I may I agree with DBZ Kai, DBS Anime and manga to share the same cosmology for obvious reasons, applying this to Toei/GT is kinda an strecht.
Let me explain, as of now, canon Dragon Ball is not accepted for having a Infinite Universe cosmology, trying to mix it up with non-canon worlds will just mess things up.
For example we have no clue Toeiverse macrocosms have an Edge, or for example if hell has different layer levels, such as GT.
We have no clue that spaces like the Sugoroku, Kami's dimension, etc do exist in the canon timelines, we cannot say yes, without heavy speculating.
I will say this, I agree with all canon works: DBZ manga, DBZ Kai, DBS Anime and manga to share same cosmology.
But forcing this to the DBZ Anime/movies and GT? No, it doesn't work like that.
While I may I agree with DBZ Kai, DBS Anime and manga to share the same cosmology for obvious reasons, applying this to Toei/GT is kinda an strecht.
Let me explain, as of now, canon Dragon Ball is not accepted for having a Infinite Universe cosmology, trying to mix it up with non-canon worlds will just mess things up.
For example we have no clue Toeiverse macrocosms have an Edge, or for example if hell has different layer levels, such as GT.
We have no clue that spaces like the Sugoroku, Kami's dimension, etc do exist in the canon timelines, we cannot say yes, without heavy speculating.
I will say this, I agree with all canon works: DBZ manga, DBZ Kai, DBS Anime and manga to share same cosmology.
But forcing this to the DBZ Anime/movies and GT? No, it doesn't work like that.
MeiouHades
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You didn't read the thread
Ruphas_Mafahl123
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I read it.
I'm just not sure if it's a good idea to generalize the cosmologies from all the works despite some having dimensions that are absent in the other.
Like, you cannot share the same cosmology if it's not 100% the exact same thing.
I'm not saying I disagree, I just find it kinda forced.
I agree with all the main canon sharing cosmology, but not the Toeiverse
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MeiouHades
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Ruphas_Mafahl123
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Well I guess I will lean to agreeing with this crt for now, as it seems you guys know what your are doing.
I just hope everything doesn't turn into a mess after this, hopefully
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Uh, I think the whole “infinite universe” point from Toei and GT is just one of the cosmology contradictions the OP was using as an example. And the purpose of this thread isn’t really to merge all Dragon Ball cosmologies into one perfectly unified structure—unless there’s enough supporting evidence for specific points that can be applied across the different versions of Dragon Ball.
Ruphas_Mafahl123
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Got kinda confused when I saw your message in Thai, lol
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Looks like Google Translate auto-translated my message. When I saw what I sent showing up in Thai, I was surprised too hahaha.
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Actually, I am curious. What is an example cosmological aspect that all the cosmologies can share that hasn't been contradicted?
MeiouHades
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One example is in the OP. The Subspace. No one besides Zeno scales to it (already accepted) but it seems to exist in the worldview, Chouzenshuu even considers it part of the world though scaling is irrelevant here
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Considering the subspace is described as what the RoSaT is apart of, which continuity doesn't have a subspace? Or does the Chouzenshuu only apply to certain series?
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- Thread starter
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All continuities have the subspace, it's part of the world in Dragon Ball. Chozenshuu verbatim has it under its worldview.
StarShooter80
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The Chozenshuu is a guide not restricted to any specific series or canon of the franchise, it covers the manga, anime, movies and GT. In its simplest form it’s a Dragon Ball guide.
Ruphas_Mafahl123
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Tho, i think using the Daizenshu for GT it's kinda odd.
Atleast in regards the Android's biology or the movies canonicity.
As literally GT authors do not care about those incosistencies in the slightest.
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- Thread starter
- #104
What you're talking about has nothing to do with the thread.
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- #106
Alright.
Ruphas_Mafahl123
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Yeah I know, my bad. I refrain from delearing the thread any further
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Okay. So if the subspace is shared among all continuities, then my question hasn't been answered. Perhaps I did not phrase it correctly so let me phrase it again. What is an example of a cosmological aspect that a continuity introduced that, under this CRT, could be applied to all continuities granted there is no contradiction?
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- #109
No offense, but I feel like we're going in circles seeing as your question has been answer not only be multiple people here, but the crt itself. The cosmology would be the same under every continuity unless actual contradictions are brought forth, that's literally it. Lets take the Demon Realm for example, something introduced in Daima. That would apply to all continuities since it is part of the overarching Dragon Ball world, Daima just ended mind you. All lore, and cosmological aspects apply to every continuity.
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Except the Demon Realm is something that has already been introduced in the series according to Daizenshuu 7 which came out in 1996. The text reads:
"Demon Realm is a world in a dimension on the other side of "the universe," which is the world where people exist. It differs from "Hell;" it is a world confirmed to be in the Living World. However, magic holds greater influence than science. Similar to the obverse universe being split into east, west, south, and north areas, the Demon Realm is also split into multiple space areas. And the absolute king who commands all of this is Daabra."
This is obviously a very different take than what shown in Daima, so I would like to know how this doesn't fit under your contradictions clause. This is why I specifically asked for a cosmological aspect that was not contradicted.
Are you going to claim there are two different demon realms? Or will some continuities not have Daima's demon realm applied to it?
MeiouHades
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You're not reading really. We're saying that the Demon Realm as shown in Daima applies to these continuities (especially Super). We know it was introduced in Z and that's what makes it even easier to argue this. Also hardly any of it is different from what's shown in the Daima except for it being on the other side of the Universe, even the concept of multiple areas was retained. No contradictions there whatsoever. The only continuities not having it applied are the those that have shown their own Demon Realm, such as the Games verse, which as we've already said isn't part of this thread anyway. And btw it was introduced in 1994 when Dabura fought Gohan.
Eden_Warlock99
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The Demon Realm does appear in the DB anime, in "Goku Goes to Demon Land" to be exact.
So pretty sure the Daima stuff wouldn't apply to the OG Anime/GT continuities.
So pretty sure the Daima stuff wouldn't apply to the OG Anime/GT continuities.
MeiouHades
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I was thinking of bringing this up, but this is probably a very prototype version of what a Demon Realm might have been in Toriyama's mind at that time, since it is never brought up later even when they do encounter Dabura even in Toei Anime. Not the actual Demon Realm as established in Z/Daizenshuu and expanded upon in Daima since even Daizenshuu never mentions anyone visiting it or Shula or anyone really.
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The date I gave was in reference to the guidebook. Ironic with your not reading comment.
Anyways. Regardless of how much you want to downplay it, the change in the demon realm’s location is 100% a contradiction. Major Contradiction? Minor Contradiction? Irrelevant. Still a contradiction.
In the OP, it is guaranteed that contradictions won’t apply to the shared world view. Now it seems as if you’re saying contradictions that you deem minor will be applied and perhaps retconned in the shared world view? Is that correct?
If so, then who gets to decide what is a minor or major contradiction? Who gets to decide how things get retconned?
I originally brought up the lack of definitive authorial statements on canon because of this. Most verses that do have a shared cosmological view, have statements that guide us onto how the canon works, whether its every game cartridge is their own universe, or that changes can be chucked up to differences in alternate timelines.
So for this shared cosmological view, what is the process to prevent convenient cherry picking of cosmological aspects?
MeiouHades
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No I read that, I'm saying it was introduced even earlier as a concept.
Pretty minor and irrelevant because it was never a plot point in the series itself especially when all the relevant stuff still ended up being the exact same basically.
Unanimous you make it extremely hard to take you seriously. What part of "contradictions won't apply" tell you that we're trying to apply stuff that we know isn't true? You're concerned about the Demon Realm? None of us in this thread are saying that we're going to use the contradicted part (other side of the universe) and apply it to everything else, we literally said that we'll use the Daima version since it's the most recent and correct depiction of it. You know, your "contention" might've held more weight if it was the anime or the manga that said something about the Demon Realm being on the other side of the Universe but neither say that, only the Daizenshuu does which at the end of the day is still a secondary canon source. Now that we have a primary canon source that goes over the Demon Realm we're going to use that, it just so happens that even the secondary canon source is almost 90% the exact same with the remaining 10% being a very minor and inconsequential contradiction.
We get to decide that. Everyone. They're called CRTs.
And that's literally what we have here. A statement where the author and the editor are saying that everything is pretty much canon and that continuities don't even really matter plus previous statements from the original author literally calling them parallel worlds or different dimensions, the ONLY thing that's different here is that we're not arguing for them being included as physical timelines partly because that gets into cross-scaling nonsense and partly because we're trying to avoid that mess right now (we actually did this previously when this was accepted, we could do it again if we wanted to, but we won't) and just establish a cosmology.
If it's not contradicted or if the contradiction is pretty irrelevant and inconsequential to the plot or the story; that's all. But even then, if someone feels that something is definitively contradicted, they can debate it and if they convince everyone then that can be included. Like I've told you before countless times, any contradiction will be handled case-by-case, something that should already happen, shared worldview or not.
Now for Heaven's sake please stop going in circles if you don't have any actual questions or arguments, I don't want this to be an 8-page mess.
TegamiBachi25
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Let's get this thread over with so we can hopefully move on. I agree.
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TBH Toriyama himself says the Demon Realm is within the universe in an interview.
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- Thread starter
- #120
Toriyama himself literally redid the demon realm as a whole. Which is what we see in Daima. So that is what matters. Like we said, this will be handled case by case.
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