The guy at one point forgot about Goten, and also forgot about SSJ2. It's no secret he was far from consistent, so I don't think this matters. Point is, in Daima Toriyama finally showed his final idea for what he thinks a Demon Realm is.
And Toriyama came up with the setting for Daima, its backstory and so on. So even if he said that he clearly changed his mind.
enough with this lame tactic.
If he redid the demon realm’s that means its completely different from the one in the previous series and you can’t apply it to ones that use the old version?
Then please stop the lame responses first. The ball's in your court not mine.
It hasn't, it wasn't even the Demon Realm because in that exact same continuity both the Toei Z Anime (and the manga) retcon it by introducing the ACTUAL Demon Realm which is stated to be ruled by Dabura, which is also the one that the Daizenshuu and later on Daima expanded upon. It was a retcon even to the OG Anime done by the Z Anime. Unless according to you OG Anime and Toei Anime are disjoint now and not part of a continuity.
Now that's cherrypicking. Did you not just cite the Daizenshuu statement yourself? Tell me, what part other than the "other side of the Universe" (which was irrelevant and inconsequential to the plot), which itself is a very minor part of the statement itself, looks "redone" to you in Daima? Don't answer that. The answer is none. Seriously, is nitpicking pointless, inconsequential detail all you're capable of? It's why I wasn't replying to you because I know this is what you rely on in every argument and hope to tire opposition out. You're not a worthy debater.
The Daizenshuu 7 which expands on the Demon realm lists Shura, a character from the episode as being part of the Demon Realm races. So this "it was retconed" argument doesn't really hold.
Wrong use of cherry picking fallacy. I am not hiding any evidence. Whereas you and the OP did not mention that the Demon Realm was retconned in Daima and differs from it's showings in the anime. You assured everyone that things with contradictions won't be apart of the shared world view, but now you are back tracking saying that differences you deem as inconsequential will not stop those cosmological aspects from being apart of the proposed world view.
Same thing as before, can you actually point out a contradiction there even if it wasn't a retcon, which it is anyway because the later depiction of the Demon Realm in both the source material and Daizenshuu itself change it up completely? You're literally ignoring the whole Z part, and your only argument here is absence of the contrary. So here's the simple truth, if it wasn't retconned, if that concept was still carried into the Toei Z Anime, Goku would've pointed out when he was told about the Demon Realm by Shin that he had been there. The fact that it was introduced as an entirely new and mysterious piece of lore destroys your "argument" yet again.
I am almost tempted to post a meme here because of how utterly ridiculous this is. My dude, use that brain of yours and think for a second; if we were all truly sure that we've addressed all contradictions that can or will be found, why the hell would we CONSTANTLY talk about the option to make future CRTs for if and when they are found? No, they were not just for future contradictions but also for any others that can be found that we may have missed. I repeated that countless time. We aren't hiding anything and yes I still maintain that it is a completely inconsequential detail that probably isn't even worth doing a future CRT over because it changes nothing, heck we can probably just mention this in a future blog itself (which, yes, we were going to). Many contradictions probably won't require dedicated CRTs either and can just be listed in a blog, that's the beauty of it. I'm also not the only one who deems it inconsequential, everyone here besides you does including the person who brought it up. You do know that other people are reading this thread besides you too right? No one here is worried about this utter non-issue besides you.
Games aren't part of this worldview stuff at all they were never meant to be, not even the semi-canon DBZ Kakarot. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z though? Yeah this concept of a Daima Demon Realm should apply to them no, undeniably, and we've given more than enough evidence and arguments for it. Also generally, when a primary source introduces a concept in a newer way it usually overrides everything else before it, that's pretty much what we're doing here.
Not "people", just you. No one here thinks this is a serious argument believe me. This is a joke of an argument.
Not worth my time nor is this "argument"
Because you don't have an argument, what you have is nitpicking a pointless detail that even if I were to concede just because it's a headache and ultimately meaningless in order to shorten the CRT, would have absolutely ZERO affect on what we're arguing here, that's the funny thing you haven't realized. But I don't want to and will not concede, I can't set a precedent where you'll be allowed to think that BSing your way into a thread is a valid strategy. I've proven that in every encounter you and I had before and I'll prove it here too. I cannot and will not allow false arguments to stand unchallenged.
Thank you! This time, please actually follow through on this unlike the last 200 times where you've threatened us with a good time like this.
It wouldn't be a Dragon Ball thread if there wasn't someone making it more difficult than it needs to be out of obvious spite.
yeah what they're arguing for is the fact that some places in DB have a common idea surrounding them. I do not think these statements made by meiou are contradictory
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If you have nothing of use to say anymore, just stop replying all together, it's simple.
Sort of yes. But really the term "secondary canon" is sort of a misnomer here given what Torishima said, instead you can think of it as an "umbrella" world with a few differences that we've already laid out. But unlike canonizing entire continuities by arguing alternate timelines, we're just focused on a shared cosmology. No actual cross-scaling since that's a headacheSo is it supposed to be like "secondary canon" for the main series rather than fully canon unless contradicted? (talking about the cosmology in case someone misunderstands
Actually no, the series itself (in this case, Daima) would take precedence over it especially if they have more recent depictions. Like I said, this is something we already do, but extended a bit further. This really isn't as big a change as people think it is and it makes handling differences later FAR easier for everyone.
They’re arguing for the ability for these common ideas to be automatically accepted without a crt.
This is the main reason why I'm not agreeing with the current proposal, more or less.
You still don't get it do you? You've been told that if any of these said "contradictions" are found and they are actually worth a separate CRT, they can in fact be made to discuss it. But not only have you failed to point out a contradiction beyond the ones we already brought to light, you also failed to make a decent argument against us to counter our claims of why said "contradictions" are actually not.
"Without a crt" yet here we are in the actual CRT expressing what we are doing with a dozen scans. It's even been mentioned already that there are little contradictions that actually need to be pointed out since all the material that will apply to the overarching cosmology has already been elaborated on and shown in these alternate works that exist to expand the world.
There is no burden flipping like you claim there is, you're the one who started off trying to dismiss this concept without actually proving it. What you need to prove is that these elements are a contradiction even though there is no reason to believe that they are based on every single statement we put out, that's the difference here. In truth, we already proved that toei, manga, and anime cosmology will be applied to one cosmology. Direct statements and intent from Authors, editors, and the successor. You keep acting as if we just say these elements should apply without any reason. Not only is this extremely disingenuous, but it's also heavy derailment since up to this point, you still haven't given any solid arguments. You tend to brush over and ignore things. And please, stop announcing your "last comment" just to come back 30 minutes later. There is absolutely no need for any of that.
This is literally flipping the burden of proof I am talking about. Thanks for proving me right.
Didn't you say you weren't going to comment anymore like twice now?
It's not; at least not without reason. We now have ACTUAL statements from authors and editors on how this works, the burden proof is in fact on you to prove what doesn't hold and why. Even then, we aren't doing anything that we couldn't already get accepted with 10 different CRTs each arguing for one specific aspect individually, this just allows us to simplify that work and save us and everyone the headache. That's what a composite cosmology is supposed to do; making future revisions easier, that's all. Not sure why this is such a controversial idea.
It's not flipping the burden, because we already proved that these elements can be applied in the first place, and that it was something intended; that it absolutely can fit without any issues and adheres to the way DB is supposed to be set up in terms of the world. You're wasting my time.
You should know by now half of what he says doesn't pan out. Wonder how his hiatus is goin'
Can you please clearly define the exact logical contradiction, flaw or issue with the OP that makes you not agree with it? Or is it simply this 'burden of proof'?
My first post contains the points that lead me to be neutral on this. To boil it down to a TL;DR; I can see how the OP and other supporters have arrived to the conclusion they have, but it's essentially a matter of interpretation of the various author statements. I don't agree with the conclusion that the various statements means we can make an exception for setting/cosmological layout when it comes to the various continuities and their canonical differences from each other, and I feel that the burden of proof is being shifted by this default assumption.
So if I'm getting this right, you don't mind the evidence; you merely interpret it differently to us. Is that right?
Well, yeah. It's not like I'm saying the quotes cited are made-up or don't exist. We're all working with the same evidence on this. The OP takes it that the author's lack of care for canon is supportive of a shared cosmological framework between all Dragon Ball series. I don't see it that way; I think it makes more sense for each continuity of Dragon Ball to have its own cosmological framework that is relevant to that particular continutiy. I understand that kind of approach takes more work but it's what makes more sense to me at the current time.
DC's already cooked. No one can save it.
Anyway; here's my problem with the "current approach" as you and I understand which you say makes more sense to you currently. When the newer evidence that we've presented (with Daima and the interview statements) wasn't there, this made perfect sense and that's how we've treated Dragon Ball for over a decade if not more. Now however, with the new evidence that we've seen, do you at least agree that something oughta change here? I think that much is at least very uncontroversial, we're clearly seeing and being told almost verbatim that the way we currently treat this is not how Dragon Ball is actually viewed by anyone who worked on it. Basically, the current approach really shouldn't make much sense now and it really doesn't.
Do you have any updated thoughts at the moment? Or are you still in that more neutral position?
Bruh its only 4 pages. Things are progressing quickly for DB CRT
Oof....
Yeah...fast. I'm going to just assume staff are focused on something behind the scenes or there's some big revision going on that they're focused on.
