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Ellimist and Crayak upgrade/Q downgrade/10-D vs. 26-D difference/help?

Yukaphile

Yukaphile

821
47
I saw the thread recently where somebody had discussed how it was stated within The Andalite Chronicles that Elfangor said the Ellimist exists past the traditional ten dimensions. That was shot down, and admittedly, we had this debate a few months back, when I was pushing for Ellimist and Crayak revisions, and somebody further agreed they were 1-C or High 1-C. The mods gave good reasons why that should not be done then. But there was something I had not considered then, and how it relates to something we all accept on Q's profile, which... why? If we don't accept it for the Ellimist but do for Q, what am I missing? Or is an upgrade/downgrade needed? I'm not trying to start something, I just want clarification. Here is the excerpt from The Andalite Chronicles:

<Well . . . I don't know. But if Ellimists are real, if they really do live in dimensions beyond our own, then they have powers we could not imagine. Pretend . . . never mind.>

"No, tell me," Loren urged. "Unless you have something else to do."

<Okay, well, you know that space-time has ten dimensions. There are the normal dimensions of up/down, left/right, and forward/back. Then there is the fourth dimension, which is time. Then, there are six other dimensions, but they are curled up into themselves, so we don't see or feel them. All we feel are three space dimensions, plus time.>

I think I kind of see author's intent here, especially since we had raised that argument back then that this should make Ellimist and Crayak 1-C, or High 1-C. They said that since those other "six dimensions" curl into themselves, it should be disregarded. But on Q's profile it states that he is 26th-dimensional, and... I now remember the TNG episode that came from, where they gave a similar statement to what Elfangor said above. And it's almost like that was the inspiration for the scene above and K.A. Applegate and Michael Grant, who wrote the Animorphs books, are very much hardocre science-fiction geeks who, if you've ever read Animorphs in full length, definitely watched Star Trek: The Next Generation. Plus K.A. herself even admits to looking to other source material for inspiration, and mixing them like one makes a meal, with the source material serving as inspiration as the ingredients to the new mishmash. Here is the passage to describe it:

EINSTEIN: G sub I, J of t as t approaches infinity.
BARCLAY: G of t over G naught.
EINSTEIN: So it is, so it is.
BARCLAY: I still don't see how you're going to incorporate quantum principle into general relativity without adjusting the cosmological constant a lot more than you're doing here.
EINSTEIN: If we increase the value as you suggest, we must face the possibility of twenty-six dimensions instead of ten.
BARCLAY: I don't think I could deal with that.
EINSTEIN: I certainly could not.
BARCLAY: But... if the semiset curved into the subatomic, the infinities might cancel each other out.
EINSTEIN: Gruss Gott. They just might.
LAFORGE: We had a meeting at 0700.
BARCLAY: I'm sorry, Commander. Thank you, Professor. End program.

That seems to be pretty much the same math technobabble or whatever, that the 16 other dimensions cancel each other out, like it was stated with the Ellimist and his ten dimensions. I'm not even saying Q should be downgraded, mind, because he has all those other feats. But really, why does this apply to him and not the Ellimist? Are more revisions needed? Or can some mod explain it to me?
 
Also, let's accept that Q can manipulate subspace. Fair enough. But... here is what La Forge says about subspace in "Schisms."

LA FORGE: We've set up a containment field in cargo bay four, but the rupture just keeps expanding. I'd say we've got another five or six hours before it breaches the hull.
PICARD: Can we still beam the affected sections out into space?
DATA: No, sir. The spatial rupture is creating severe nucleonic interference. It is impossible to obtain a positive lock on the bulkheads.
PICARD: Has your analysis suggested any way in which we might seal this rupture?
LA FORGE: We think we can close the rupture by neutralizing the tetryon emissions with a coherent graviton pulse. But we'd have to do that at the source.
RIKER: How do we find the source?
LA FORGE: Good question. The emissions are coming from a tertiary subspace domain, but subspace has an infinite number of domains. It's like a huge honeycomb with an endless number of cells. We need to isolate the exact cell that these emissions are coming from.

Seems more like 2-A to me than Tier 1, but... again, I wanna know the thoughts of the mods, and how this relates to the Ellimist and Crayak?
 
Furthermore, I think Zero-space, as it is described in the books, is a realm of zero-point energy. Here is what Ax says:

I'll say this for Ax. He may have been a little weird by human standards, but the boy knows his technology. I mean, he went down the pegboards in the back of the store and just started lifting off different components.

"This must be a primitive gairtmof," he said, inspecting a small switch. "And this could be a sort of fleer. Very primitive, but it will work."

In ten minutes' time he'd accumulated a dozen components, ranging from coaxial cable to batteries to things I didn't even recognize.

"Good," he said at last. "All I lack is a Z-Space transponder. Transponder. PONder."

"A what?"

"A Z-Space transponder. It translates the signal into zero space."

I looked at Jake. "Zero space?"

Jake looked back at me and shrugged. "Never heard of it."

Ax looked doubtful. "Zero space," he repeated. "Zeeeero. The opposite of true space. Anti-reality." He looked patiently from one of us to the other. "Zero space, the nondimension where faster-than-light travel is possible. Bull. Possi-bull-uh."

"Oh," I said sarcastically. "That zero space. Um, Ax? Sorry to be so primitive and all, but we don't have faster-than-light travel. And I've never heard of zero space."

"Oh."

"Yeah. Oh."
 
And here is how Marco's dad describes Zero-space in #45. The Revelation:

"We've discovered what could be thought of as a whole new dimension, yet not a dimension at all. It's sort of like . . . Marco, you've studied conic sections, haven't you?"

When would I learn not to ask Dad to elaborate? Engineers, like math teachers, have a way of waxing prolific about theoretical situations that put my feeble mind to sleep almost instantly. Even faster than my math book.

"Forget math class," Dad said, realizing that he was losing me. "You know what a cone looks like, right? Well, the surface of a cone is the two-dimensional analogue to the five-dimensional space we inhabit."

I sighed and got up to get another slice. Dad grabbed my arm and made me sit down.

"But a cone is three-dimensional," Nora corrected.

"Exactly. While the surface of the cone is two-dimensional, the surface exists in three dimensions."

"Hmm." Nora seemed perplexed.

"Yeah," I said even louder. "Hmmm."

"The cone contains a singularity," Dad insisted.

"A what?"

"The place where all lines intersect. The place where you can head out in any direction, or in all directions at once. Where you can move in any direction without moving anywhere at all."

"What does this cone have to do with your work?" Nora's puzzled look revealed that Dad had just surpassed her in geekitude. Which, unfortunately, only made him more determined to explain.

"We live our lives on just one line on the cone, in a mere four dimensions, including time."

I felt my eyes rolling up into my head.

"We've been stuck on the surface of the cone all this time. When we want to go anywhere, we have to travel on the line. But now, imagine someone notices the singularity. A point with no size, no breadth, no extent. The physical representation of nothingness. By itself, it's nothing. Yet it's the starting and ending place of everything! A multiplier of real space!"

Basically, similarly to how Q is superior to subspace and can manipulate it all upon his whims, the Ellimist is likewise able to manipulate Zero-space as well as real space. Granted, in Animorphs, there is only one universe shown, and in Trek, we see that the many-worlds interpretation indeed plays out across another quantum superposition, but... even so, we have statements from their higher-dimensional perspective in how they "see" space-time as vibrating strings, like in M theory. So how does this all connect together?
 
Basically we should only use higher dimensions for tier 1 level statistics if they are treated as qualitatively and/or infinitely superior to the preceding ones, especially given our upcoming tiering system revisions.

If Animorphs or Star Trek do not use them in this manner, but rather simply as dorections, they should preferably not exceed tier 2 ratings.
 
It means that the higher dimensions is treated as so superior to the lower one that it is impossible for the latter to compare in any way.
 
Okay, lemme see if I can run this down, to come to some kinda conclusion. I will begin gathering my thoughts, one moment...
 
For Star Trek, Q is shown, described as or assumed to be superior to subspace, as well as the void Nagillum comes from, and stuff like Fluidic Space, I get all that. Problem is, that as a Trek fan, a lot of that is not consistent, and I'll admit it, and I think our debate months ago with Idazmi proved that. While Trek was never 100% consistent, it had something of a loose-flowing continuity until Voyager came along, restrained by the corporate suits. Hell, Q said in "Qpid" how gender differences was petty and caused a lot of conflict, then in DS9 he got clingy over Vash (but at least you could handwave it with "he just wants to see the universe through new eyes!"), and then in "The Q and the Grey," turns out Q had an old flame. Yes, Q. If they could be that inconsistent, about character, then could they not be inconsistent about the other stuff? We also generally accept that Q is above the Prophets, since they could be affected by chronitons. Fair enough. But we also include EU material here, which muddies the waters. At least as I see it. The Prophets "exist outside linear time" and can influence it via their artificial wormhole. Nagillum exists in a void that is the "absence of everything." And subspace is an infinite number of honeycomb-like domains. Thing is, Q and those beings never directly interact in the TV show, so we have no proof that Q is superior past assumptions. Where do we get those assumptions? I mean, the Traveler, for example. Sure, he sent them to the edge of the universe via amping up their warp engines, but... I think 2-A seems a little weird. He just seems like a regular alien, if one that is capable of moving easily through 3-D space and time. And again, he also never interacts with all these other beings, so scaling them off one another, again, feels weird. I could be missing something, and I'd love to see what.

As for Animorphs, the Ellimist was originally part of an avian species, the Ketrans, where he downloaded a whole mass of memories into his brain, and to survive, he expanded outward into a synthetically constructed body/ship as a repository to let the information flow freely. As he fought with Crayak, originally a sentient planetoid-type being like Zonama Sekot or Mogo or Ego, he began evolving and branching out into a fleet that included thousands of ships. Eventually he was gaining head on Crayak, winning their war, until Crayak lured him into a black hole. Ellimist was stretched across Zero-space (a zero-point energy dimension, as I had indicated), real space, and into the black hole, being crushed into the quantum singularity, where his consciousness sort of "ascended" past all it. That's 3-D space, time, Zero-space, and into a black hole. He began perceiving the universe as "space-time threads," no doubt M theory, string vibrations.

And then, as said by myself and others, somehow he created the Time Matrix, for reasons unknown, but it's tied into this same system. You touch it, and via thought waves, it changes reality around you, the whole universe. Sure, one could argue it's because it's changing time, but it doesn't act like a traditional time machine. It feels more like it alters the string vibrations of the universe to conform to your will. Hell, with it, Elfangor, Loren, and Visser 32 (later Visser Three/One) created their own reality. Thing is that it was a patchwork of their memories of their homes. Earth, Yeerk home wold, and Andalite home world. It was incomplete, and outside this weird pocket dimension was Zero-space, again, a zero-point energy realm. Thing is that the Ellimist was above all of this, same with Crayak. Zero-space, real space, a black hole, this created pocket dimension, all of it. How does that tie into this?
 
I mean, real space is not infinite, right? And in the books, Elfangor even says that people speculate how there is not "one universe, but many." The pocket dimension really seems like it's a universe itself. Zero-space is inifnite. And Ellimist and Crayak are above both. But again, what does this mean? Would that make them 5-D or 6-D rather than the 10-D some suggest?
 
And btw, my original point was that stating Q is 26th-dimensional simply based on Barclay's supergenius when he himself admits in the same breath that they curl back into themselves, the other 16 dimensions, seems weird.
 
Okay. You can also ask some of the active and experienced members listed in the Star Trek verse page to comment here.
 
So, from what I've read, only the 26-dimensional statement from Q's page should be removed, since it's specifically the one which is referring to dimensions from Bosonic String Theory, as opposed to uncompactified ones. There is also a 18-dimensional statement and one regarding "limitless dimensions" in it, and from what I've heard, higher dimensions in Star Trek are fairly consistently stated to exist beyond human comprehension for different reasons than the fact they are additional directions, and are actual, tangible parts of the space-time continuum because of Subspace, so 1-B can stay, imo.

Meanwhile, the statements from Animorphs mostly involve compactified dimensions and a vague statement about Z-Space being dimensionless, which as far as I see doesn't amount to anything. So, yea.
 
Well, that was my original question, how it relates to Star Trek, since again, I saw the same logic being denied yet applied elsewhere, that the other "dimensions" curve into and cancel each other out. Thanks! Still, we could keep this thread around to discuss further revisions past tiering? It's to try and suss out the science. Unless a mod minds?
 
@Ultima

Thank you for helping out.

Is somebody experienced willing to investigate which characters in Star Trek that are scaled from the 26-dimensional statement, and adjust them accordingly?
 
Big post, there's a bunch of stuff regarding the Q.

In Hide and Q, Q uses his power to suspend time. They heavily imply this is on a universal scale, as the Enterprise is able to save injured civilians with no time passed.

  • TASHA: Captain, you'd better look at this. There's been no interruption in course or speed. Both have remained constant. It's as though we never stopped.
  • PICARD: We never did, Lieutenant. Q suspended time.
Also, Q himself claims that he could change the gravitational constant of the universe, even bringing it up in a conversation and being heavily surprised that Humans incapable of doing such a feat, implying its easy.

About subspace being home to "infinite domains and universes", that just refers to realms. In this context, "domain" just refers to realms within subspace, not higher dimensions because the aliens they were fighting were humanoid, Solanogen-based lifeforms.

  • LAFORGE: Good question. The emissions are coming from a tertiary subspace domain, but subspace has an infinite number of domains. It's like a huge honeycomb with an endless number of cells. We need to isolate the exact cell that these emissions are coming from.
One such domain in subspace is the Mycelial network

  • If we don't stop them soon, the contamination will be irreversible. The network will continue to deteriorate everywhere. Here, in this universe, back in ours, across the entire multiverse. And when it does life as we know it will cease to exist.
According to the Traveler's profile, "the Traveler had full mastery over the usage of these fields, putting him, while at a massively inferior level, possibly comparable to the Q to some degree, as well as the likely possibility of his higher dimension being of a similar structure to aliens experienced in Chaotic Space or even that of the Q Continuum." Chaotic Space isn't stated to be a higher dimensional real of subspace, it's stated to intersect normal space at an 18th dimensional gradient and it has things like gravitational and spatial distortions like the regular universe

  • EMH: You're not going crazy. They're doing this for a reason. You've got to trust them. Stop fighting. Open your mind. Let go. Listen.
  • CHAKOTAY: Chaotic space intersects ours at the eighteenth dimensional gradient. Voyager entered through a trimetric fracture.
  • SEVEN: The Borg have been aware of this phenomenon for many years. It is a zone where the law of physics are in a state of flux. Chaotic space.
  • JANEWAY: Why didn't sensors warn us in time?
  • SEVEN: Chaotic space appears randomly and unexpectedly. The Borg have observed it throughout the galaxy.
  • TUVOK: Then why hasn't a Federation starship encountered anything like this?
  • SEVEN: No doubt some have.
  • CHAKOTAY: Think of all the Starfleet vessels that disappeared under mysterious circumstances.
  • SEVEN: Borg vessels are more advanced, but only one Cube has survived an encounter with Chaotic space.
  • CHAKOTAY: Those aren't good odds.
  • TUVOK: If the physical constants are shifting, our sensors can't function.
  • SEVEN: The problem is here. Changes in the gravitational coefficient will cause sudden shear forces against our hull. Shields will protect us, but only for a time.
Another gripe I have with the profile is this "Q-Weapons are weapons made by other Q, which rupture the fabric of space-time itself. It is stated these weapons can kill the Q, but this was never demonstrated, and Quinn, a rogue Q, could not kill himself until his powers were removed. This would suggest these weapons have some degree of Power Nullification, immortality nullification, and regen nullification."

Firstly, we never see a Q be killed by these weapons, yes, but Q himself is nearly killed by a single "shot" from one. Secondly, it's heavily implied that these weapons were created during the Q civil war, which was a direct result of Quinn's death.

  • JANEWAY: Be still. I never thought a Q could be injured.
  • Q: As I said, this is only a perception of what is happening. I can assure you, those are not mere cannonballs and lead charges being fired at us.
  • JANEWAY: So they're some sort of Q weapons?
  • Q: You'd be surprised what innovative munitions can be created by one immortal being who's set his mind on killing another.
  • JANEWAY: This is your fight, Q, not mine.
  • Q: If that's how you feel about it. But if their weapons can make me bleed, what do you think they'll do to you?
 
I should just note here that the domains of Subspace being just alternate realms as opposed to higher layers doesn't necessarily impact on whether it exceeds Tier 2 in scope or not, especially if its domains can be comprised of higher dimensional spaces themselves.

Chaotic Space isn't stated to be a higher dimensional real of subspace, it's stated to intersect normal space at an 18th dimensional gradient and it has things like gravitational and spatial distortions like the regular universe

Is that so? You can correct me here, but the website linked on the profiles does state that it exists in 18 dimensions, and even then, wouldn't the statement itself apply to the space-time continuum, or at least to Subspace? Given how the "eighteenth dimensional gradient" is apparently how Chaotic Space intersects with, and can manifest as an anomaly in the normal continuum in the first place (Based on the stuff I've read, at least, you can also correct me on this one). If that's the case, then I don't particularly see anything wrong with 1-B.
 
That information likely comes directly from the 18th dimensional gradient thing, as that's literally the only time higher dimensions are even mentioned in the episode. Here's the episode transcript if you'd like to see for yourself.

The statement seems to applies to both the regular space-time continuum (as in regular 3/4-D space) and chaotic space. Chaotic space intersects the universe with this gradient, yes, but it manifests through breeches in space-time.

  • EMH: You're not going crazy. They're doing this for a reason. You've got to trust them. Stop fighting. Open your mind. Let go. Listen.
  • CHAKOTAY: Chaotic space intersects ours at the eighteenth dimensional gradient. Voyager entered through a trimetric fracture.
  • EMH: Trimetric fracture?
To be honest, I'm not exactly well versed on higher-dimensional stuff in fiction or Star Trek. Anyway, a ton of stuff on the profiles is taken way out of context.
 
So what do you think that Q and the other high-powered Star Trek characters should be downgraded to?
 
If they do get downgraded, I'd say At least Multiverse level+. Subspace itself contains an infinite amount of realms, such as the multiverse-spanning mycelial network.
 
I agree. 2-A seems logical as a baseline. Again, as per what I wrote above, that subspace has an infinite number of domains.
 
Okay. What do you think Ultima?

(If he does not reply, feel free to remind him via his message wall.)
 
@ByAsura

My point is that the quote itself implies that there do exist 18 dimensions in the verse, and the fact that Chaotic Space as a phenomenon can manifest in normal space-time by intersecting through it by means of the "eighteenth dimensional gradient" does imply that they are part of the spacetime continuum (or at least of Subspace, given what I read about the it), and aren't of a vague, insignificant size that is irrelevant for tiering. Though, thinking about it a bit more, the statement is really vague, so I can understand not wanting to accept it at face value for tiering.

Although, wouldn't Q and the like be At least High 2-A anyways? Given there is this statement which describes the Q as existing beyond both space and time and seeing them as part of a flat "map" which they can access at will.

All-in-all, from what I see, something like "At least High 2-A, possibly / likely far higher" or "At least High 2-A, possibly / likely 1-B" can work.

By the way, this may be a bit of a tangent, but I've been talking to Aeyu (the person who originally made the changes to the Star Trek profiles) off-site, and she believes that some of the profiles need fixing. Namely, she said that Q-Prophet should just be a key on Q's profile, and the 1-B highball on The Traveler's profile should be removed, while his main rating can be changed to "At least Low 2-C, possibly High 2-A".

She also made a draft for what Q's profile can look like.
 
There's at least 18 higher dimensions, I'm not contesting that, it's just they don't say Chaotic Space itself is a higher dimension. There's also tons of 4-D phenomena that occurs throughout The Fight. Chaotic Space is definitely apart of subspace, they imply this on a few occasions, such as subspace radio being active

  • KIM: I'm picking up a lot of raw data. Subspace flux, graviton waves. Sensors must be confused. The readings are shifting around so much I can't make heads or tails of what's out there.
  • KIM: Graviton wave displacement says we're moving at warp six. Subspace sensors show we're standing still.
  • PARIS: We've just heard from Vegas, Mars and Orion Three. The odds are running thirty three to one that he'll outpoint you. Eleven to one that you'll be k-o'ed by the fifth. Subspace radio is calling it the Disaster in the Delta. We can still scratch the card. I'll call the Doctor. We'll get you out on a medical.
That's from a comic, which are non-canon, but I guess it's also an author statement that refers to canonical events. Basically it's questional, but I digress. Also, the statement doesn't say he transcends time, it says he can see it all at once.
 
Chaotic Space isn't relevant to the scaling anymore, as far as I see, the 18-dimensional thing is independent of it.

Is it? As far as I know, The IDW Star Trek comics are considered canonically accurate until contradicted by material from the primary continuity, unless that specific one has been retconned, in which case I digress.

Nevertheless, I do believe the statement is pretty clearly alluding to Q perceiving space and time as flat, considering the whole analogy with him perceiving it as Humans perceive a map, and the fact that the author actually felt the need to specify that he also perceives 3-dimensional space as part of said map.
 
Ok. Basically everything is non-canon if it's not live action. I believe there's two novels that are canon, but they're considered exceptions. The IDW stuff is based on the Mirror Universe anyway, which is sort of notorious for being more fast and loose with its past than Star Trek normally is.

I suppose that makes sense. They frequently allude to Q and the Travellers transcending 4-D space, anyway. So I'll agree with you about 5-D characters.
 
Ocri isn't a paramount licensing executive, also he doesn't exactly appear to be serious given the phrasing of this statement.
 
Nonetheless, he still acts as a representative of Paramount, and I gathered that they would've make a statement if they had a problem with what he said, although I can see where you are coming from.

Anyways, I don't believe that the discussion of whether the comics are canon or not affect the High 2-A statement, since, as you said, it comes directly from an author and moreso represents his own idea of the Q's nature, so I'd wager that it is fine to use in any case.
 
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